Heavy Bottom spin opponent.

Rack wrote: Ok enough of Pong... useless...   Keven,   It's very difficult to get the other player outta position off of a long spinny heavy underspin serve unless your looping is really high level.  You can probably pull off just a basic opening loop off of the serve but you gotta prepare to counter cause it'll just start the rally.  If you feel thats a low percentage shot for you... just push it back and make him open and you prepare to counter him.  Or if he doesn't feel comfortable in opening off of your push... thats your chance to open.   If you're comfortable with looping his serve or push... you can keep him guessing by either going cross or down the line if thats within your ability but remember to take a peek of where he is first and place accordingly to take the initiative.

Thanks for the tip.

I was just trying to imply(strongly) that I didn't want just a return that was so weak my opponent can just smash it away.

Rack wrote: Heres another example.   Watch 3:53 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUyxOMwTbPI.  Ball goes below the table... Wang Hao lifts and spins it back up and open WITHOUT a open upwards facing blade.

Just to be fair, Wang Hao looped a top spin ball off Xu Xin's block so it doesn't apply to the backspin discussion here. Even that, he had a VERY open racket so if it were backspin and that low he could have had an open upwards racket. So IMO "open upward loop" is quite feasible in that kind of situation. Not to mention there's that "fake loop" you can do to underspin with an open upwards racket, where you basicly shove the ball over the net instead of rubbing it. Although those are certainly not what you normally do to most underspin balls.

Fake-out flicks are a pretty advanced technique. At least it is in my development lol.

ZingyDNA wrote: Rack wrote: Heres another example.   Watch 3:53 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUyxOMwTbPI.  Ball goes below the table... Wang Hao lifts and spins it back up and open WITHOUT a open upwards facing blade.   Just to be fair, Wang Hao looped a top spin ball off Xu Xin's block so it doesn't apply to the backspin discussion here. Even that, he had a VERY open racket so if it were backspin and that low he could have had an open upwards racket. So IMO "open upward loop" is quite feasible in that kind of situation. Not to mention there's that "fake loop" you can do to underspin with an open upwards racket, where you basicly shove the ball over the net instead of rubbing it. Although those are certainly not what you normally do to most underspin balls.

APW... I'm not saying the shot doesn't exist or that it can't be performed.  The scoop loop sure can be used.  I even advocated that Keven should consider the shot if he was in a safety situation.  My point is... should it be a primary shot against normal underspin from a non chopper like Pong says.  Like Zingy said, it's not the primary normal shot you would do against a normal inverted user that Keven is facing.  Against a chopper with a great amount of underspin from a very heavy chop... sure its a good shot to use but I've NEVER seen a decent player scoop loop everytime a normal inverted player pushes to them or serves long... thats where I believe he's wrong.  The return quality just wouldn't be good as Keven even knows... it would be pretty high and lob like if you don't execute it VERY well.  Not to mention you give the opponent a HUGE chance to open up a strong attack on you everytime because he knows if he serves long or pushes long... you'll do some scoop loop high and he'll step back and be ready for you each time after he catches on that thats your way to deal with it.  No coach would advocate scoop looping as a primary means to deal with a long serve or push which is why Pong can't find one video of a half decent player who does.  APW you're a good player, would you as a player/teacher, scoop loop everytime someone serves long or pushes at you and give your opponent (who will probably anticipate it sooner or later that thats the way you deal with any underspin) the initiative every time?  Or would you just simply loop/drive loop or even push + place the underspin normally to set up the next shot (which is what I'm suggesting to do)?

And in response to Zingy, yes that 2nd clip was against top... the 1st clip of Timo was against underspin push.  Was the most I can do with 5 minutes worth of searching.

Yep squatting down more putting your weight on your right leg = using your legs more.  Glad its working for you and that you didnt resort to lobbing it up so he could kill you.  The recovery will come in time as you do it more and more.  Just put it in your head to immediately reset after your stroke is complete and don't stay stuck watching or "posing" on the follow through too long.  But it should help you become more consistent.  Don't be surprised if your legs get sore or your right leg starts gettin bigger than your left the more you do it... .

I see your point Rack, its my fault for skim reading through the thread before posting.

Rack