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How should I Coach someone in a match?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:



As for AgentHex, well, as a guy who have been banned myself, I sort of feel for him. While I agree about the decision to ban and think it was correct, I think it should stay with that and not add any further "insults" towards him. I know, he himself is pretty happy to insult people and believe me, as soon as he is back I will support most insults you throw at him, but to do it when he isnt here to defend himself... Well, it rubbs me the wrong way.


I agree with this very much. (certain people with good memories may see irony in this!)
To my way of thinking a forum is democracy in action, and democracy is worth protecting. Unfortunately, democracy is open to abuse from loud voices with bad motives, so we have to have rules and people strong enough to apply them even if it hurts their own ideals of free speech.
I find making an average thoughtful, helpful post probably takes about 20-30 minutes of my time, whereas if there is a troll at work I find there can be a negative disruptive response appearing in a couple of minutes. This is puts the odds heavily in favour of a troll wanting to disrupt a thread.
I suppose this is just a fact of life if you are a forum member, but it would be nice if the reaction to repeat offending is a bit swifter, so the disruption can be kept to a minimum.
Having been a mod, I know its not that simple, and I wish our mods the best as they pursue their thankless task
And I wish our absent friend the best, and hope that in the future he can see that in respecting us and our opinions, he will gain respect for his own talents, which are many.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I think everyone is getting over sensitive, I actually liked AgentHEX, He knows I did, I personally like maverick thinking, and he knows that I know what he was about.  I cannot understand why everyone is getting so moralistic over this, I would not think for a minute he is bothered about being banned from this forum. Who feels guilty for engaging him ? not me, he asked for it, wanted it, needed it, its easy to say we all should feel guilty for engaging him, but he said some things that needed to be engaged, the alternative is not imaginable surely? there would be no point to the forum.


Oh - please don't misunderstand me.  I'm all for engaging.  Well, you should definitely know that by now.  It's just that when we continue to engage past certain points - points were we get personally upset - points where we find ourselves engaging in poor behavior ourselves and so forth where we become part of the problem.  That's often when it is simply time to disengage.

Sometimes you just have to recognize that you've led the horse to water and it's not drinking - or maybe recognize that it is you who is, in fact,  the horse ...  :^)

Bottom line for me is that I understand the annoyance with AgentHex at times.  But I don't agree with the ban.  And I'm not convinced that AgentHex was an intentional troll at all. I think he sometimes didn't listen very well and is perhaps too often overly impressed with his own evaluation of things. I recognize that because I suffer from that infliction at times myself.



Edited by wturber - 10/04/2013 at 6:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I think everyone is getting over sensitive, I actually liked AgentHEX, He knows I did, I personally like maverick thinking, and he knows that I know what he was about.  I cannot understand why everyone is getting so moralistic over this, I would not think for a minute he is bothered about being banned from this forum. Who feels guilty for engaging him ? not me, he asked for it, wanted it, needed it, its easy to say we all should feel guilty for engaging him, but he said some things that needed to be engaged, the alternative is not imaginable surely? there would be no point to the forum.


Oh - please don't misunderstand me.  I'm all for engaging.  Well, you should definitely know that by now.  It's just that when we continue to engage past certain points - points were we get personally upset - points where we find ourselves engaging in poor behavior ourselves and so forth where we become part of the problem.  That's often when it is simply time to disengage.

Sometimes you just have to recognize that you've led the horse to water and it's not drinking - or maybe recognize that it is you who is, in fact,  the horse ...  :^)

Bottom line for me is that I understand the annoyance with AgentHex at times.  But I don't agree with the ban.  And I'm not convinced that AgentHex was an intentional troll at all. I think he sometimes didn't listen very well and is perhaps too often overly impressed with his own evaluation of things. I recognize that because I suffer from that infliction at times myself.

 AGentHEX knows how to play the troll game perfectly, the fact that this is a TT forum is incidental to him, period. If anyone needs to take issue with that with me right now, I have no problem walking away from this forum for good. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 6:30pm
APW46,

I am with you 100% on this. As someone who gets accused of trolling on MYTT, I can say that it was obvious that AgentHex was going out of his way to disagree with and upset people. When someone isn't consistently doing this, the usual behavior is to step back and seek points of agreement.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

 AGentHEX knows how to play the troll game perfectly, the fact that this is a TT forum is incidental to him, period. If anyone needs to take issue with that with me right now, I have no problem walking away from this forum for good. 


Ummm ... so much for advocating engagement.

But I'm no expert on trolling.  I don't pay enough attention to it to have the expertise.  Perhaps that makes me vulnerable to being duped by a highly skilled troll. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 6:40pm
PPP hit the note, why the hell should I spend my time writing posts to hopefully help aspiring players, along with other notable contributors to this forum, when someone can come along and totally wreck any kind of meaningful thought process with meaningless gobledygook. Politically correct intentions can have a negative effect, and can sometimes be unstoppable, I hope its not the case for MYTT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:



Ummm ... so much for advocating engagement.

But I'm no expert on trolling.  I don't pay enough attention to it to have the expertise.  Perhaps that makes me vulnerable to being duped by a highly skilled troll. 

 Well I am an expert having been one, got banned ( twice) re-assesed myself and came back to try to make amends, and I can assure you all, AgentHEX is laughing right now. The worst thing is, he is actually a good poster, the sort forums like this need, but needs to be restrained or the forum will definitely die.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 6:48pm
I think APW is about right in suggesting that if you act as a troll then you are prepared to be banned.
Equally I agree with wturber that we can most of us look at how we behaved in those thread and find reasons for self criticism.
But if we dont want the forum to become like something on Yahoo, we and the mods have to realize that the reality of trolling is that some trolls are not people who are genuinely excited about something who will calm down if we are nice to them. Trolling is their hobby, they enjoy it and the more they irritate us, the more they enjoy it. However, the more they do it, the less we and our representatives enjoy the forum and eventually the axe has to fall. The good news is that Trolls sometimes reform, but I suspect that is not for us to bring about. Its something the Troll has to do for himself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

PPP hit the note, why the hell should I spend my time writing posts to hopefully help aspiring players, along with other notable contributors to this forum, when someone can come along and totally wreck any kind of meaningful thought process with meaningless gobledygook. Politically correct intentions can have a negative effect, and can sometimes be unstoppable, I hope its not the case for MYTT.


I think you underestimate the power of reputation and the ability of most readers to separate nonsense from sense.

I don't consider all sources of posts to be equal.  I sure hope others have that same good sense.

And FWIW, I generally look forward to reading yours - as I'm sure many others do.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

Trolling is their hobby, they enjoy it and the more they irritate us, the more they enjoy it. However, the more they do it, the less we and our representatives enjoy the forum and eventually the axe has to fall.


Hence the phrase, "Please don't feed the trolls."  No, that's not a cure-all.  But it sure helps.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:


But if we dont want the forum to become like something on Yahoo, ...


I'm a mod on a Yahoo group.  It is the best behaved of the various groups in which I participate - my mod skills notwithstanding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Well I am an expert having been one, got banned ( twice) re-assesed myself and came back to try to make amends, and I can assure you all, AgentHEX is laughing right now. The worst thing is, he is actually a good poster, the sort forums like this need, but needs to be restrained or the forum will definitely die.


Well, maybe his positive aspects blind me somewhat to the negatives.  Either way, I'm not a mod here,  it isn't my call, and I'm not privy to any private warning he may have received.  So hopefully this will be the last I post on this issue.

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Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:


But if we dont want the forum to become like something on Yahoo, ...


I'm a mod on a Yahoo group.  It is the best behaved of the various groups in which I participate - my mod skills notwithstanding.

oops
Its ages since I have been on Yahoo and was upset by someone who didnt like losing at go.
And have been reading Gulliver's Travels recently..
I am sure it was not your group!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 7:12pm
Wturber, I think you also engaged him on a thread where he had non-TT knowledge with relevance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2013 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:



Bottom line for me is that I understand the annoyance with AgentHex at times.  But I don't agree with the ban.  And I'm not convinced that AgentHex was an intentional troll at all. I think he sometimes didn't listen very well and is perhaps too often overly impressed with his own evaluation of things. I recognize that because I suffer from that infliction at times myself.



Jay, I respectfully disagree.  There were many times when his trolling was unquestionably intentional, and I could easily show you examples.  Not 100% of his posts were of that nature, maybe not even 50%, but enough were.  I also know for a fact that he was driving people away from the forum.  I was on the verge myself about the time of the first ban. 

The other thing about a certain style of trolling is they more or less force you to engage. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2013 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

 

The other thing about a certain style of trolling is they more or less force you to engage. 
 Yes because its worded so that non engagement is an admission of failure to supply evidence to back your post, In many cases, you have to respond when the outline of another post accuses you of incompetence. If Carlsberg did Trolls....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2013 at 11:46am
Its all about our egos. If we didnt have egos life would be dull wouldnt it. But on the other hand we are sometimes led into equal boredom when we forget to engage brain properly before posting
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Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

I agree with fatt - either you have freedom of speech or you don't!

What?  Did Fatt really say that?  where?
Sorry, let me re-write
I agree with fatt.
I believe either you have freedom of speech or you don't. 

BMonkey - hopefully, you got some good suggestions to your original question. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2013 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

I agree with fatt - either you have freedom of speech or you don't!

What?  Did Fatt really say that?  where?

Sorry, let me re-write
I agree with fatt.
I believe either you have freedom of speech or you don't. 

BMonkey - hopefully, you got some good suggestions to your original question. 

Just checking:-
Do you believe Trolls should never be suspended?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2013 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

I agree with fatt - either you have freedom of speech or you don't!

What?  Did Fatt really say that?  where?

Sorry, let me re-write
I agree with fatt.
I believe either you have freedom of speech or you don't. 

BMonkey - hopefully, you got some good suggestions to your original question. 

Just checking:-
Do you believe Trolls should never be suspended?
No, I think if people are using abusive language then they should be suspended. But for expressing their view or opinion - they shouldn't be suspended.

I also think if people responded to the original poster - then some of these arguments can be avoided. Furthermore, quite a few of these personal issues can be addressed through private messages. 
Damn: just broke my own suggestion about responding to the original posterShocked



Edited by jrscatman - 10/05/2013 at 1:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2013 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

I agree with fatt - either you have freedom of speech or you don't!

What?  Did Fatt really say that?  where?

Sorry, let me re-write
I agree with fatt.
I believe either you have freedom of speech or you don't. 

BMonkey - hopefully, you got some good suggestions to your original question. 

Just checking:-
Do you believe Trolls should never be suspended?

No, I think if people are using abusive language then they should be suspended. But for expressing their view or opinion - they shouldn't be suspended.

I also think if people responded to the original poster - then some of these arguments can be avoided. Furthermore, quite a few of these personal issues can be addressed through private messages. 
Damn: just broke my own suggestion about responding to the original posterShocked



I think though what has just come to pass was not Personal - he doesn't know any of us. Nor was he expressing a particular opinion. Rather he was just posting what he conceived would be an irritant to whoever tried to engage in discussion.
I guess what I am trying to suggest is that defending the personal liberties of people who respond by being deliberately annoying can be counterproductive in the long run.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2013 at 3:01pm
here is part of what I wrote (between the dashes) while healing my wounds with the mods Ouch:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...

In the end I am happy that the projection on the members of what forum management does is that even if we care about individuals' rights to express themselves when they do not break any rule, the whole stability of the forum ultimately must win so the mods' decision is a clear message of their firm control, borderline or not!

...

That's the way I reconcile and make sense out of the situation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I hope we can put all this behind us now; we ultimately want the same thing; all of us.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


To get back to the topic LOL, I would say that cheering for the person we coach in a match is needed for both player and coach; in the inner game of tennis it is said we should celebrate when we win a strong rally to congratulate our inner game and stay calm when we have a bad miss to better understand what went wrong.

I like to celebrate loudly when the person I coach in a match wins a strong rally (especially when it's the result of a weakness that has been put under control after the match started) as I feel part of the game that's going on; actually, I AM part of it .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2013 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

Its all about our egos.


This probably plays a large part in it, but at the same time, those of us who are genuinly interested in the sport and either try to give or receive help simply can't let it pass when someone passes on advices that are completely wrong.

Like Wturber said (I think it was him) I don't read all posts the same. When it comes to tactical knowledge, I value the advices from APW, PPP, Larrytt and some others more then average Joe's advices, even though I appreciate everyones effort.

The scariest part here is how we have now spent a page and a half to discuss AHex, instead of discussing the topic, which I actually find really interesting, but perhaps we have all already shared our views on the topic and should move on to something else that can be useful to all of us?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2013 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

I agree with fatt - either you have freedom of speech or you don't!

What?  Did Fatt really say that?  where?
Sorry, let me re-write
I agree with fatt.
I believe either you have freedom of speech or you don't. 

BMonkey - hopefully, you got some good suggestions to your original question. 


This forum is private property.  We are guests and, by rights of the owner, can be asked/made to leave at any time.  This is not a free speech issue.  When banned (or not) we are free to start our own forums, blogs or whatever and can say what we want.  We are free to speak.

Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak anywhere and anytime that you please.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2013 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

I agree with fatt - either you have freedom of speech or you don't!

What?  Did Fatt really say that?  where?
Sorry, let me re-write
I agree with fatt.
I believe either you have freedom of speech or you don't. 

BMonkey - hopefully, you got some good suggestions to your original question. 


This forum is private property.  We are guests and, by rights of the owner, can be asked/made to leave at any time.  This is not a free speech issue.  When banned (or not) we are free to start our own forums, blogs or whatever and can say what we want.  We are free to speak.

Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak anywhere and anytime that you please.
I can argue - but this thread's been derailed too much. So I will agree to disagree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2013 at 1:24pm
wturber and jrcatsman are valuable members of the forum who just gave an example of why a lot of us come here.  Guys who can disagree without insulting, trolling, attacking, etc.  The thread was pretty badly derailed, but there was a lot of interesting stuff provided.  Know this, though:  on occasion people do get banned, and there are limitations to free speech here (as in life in general).  That is, say what you want, but there are potential consequences.  People sometimes lose jobs over things they post on the internet or say or do.  There are libel laws that vary from one place to the next.  You can't yell fire in a crowded theater.  There are many other limits.  In the US you cannot threaten the life of a public official, or anyone else.  You can't joke about security in an airport.  You can debate how much of this is appropriate, probably best to not do it here.  One thing is for sure: anyone who wants to can create their own ping pong forum on the internet with whatever rules they want. 

The mods discuss this at great length (especially this case) and are very hesitant to ban anyone.  Warnings are given, usually several. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a summary of some points of view how to coach someone during a timeout -- in hopes that we can get the thing back on track.

1.  Most people suggested avoiding technique, but a contrary view was that you could do it if you knew your student well and knew they could implement the technical coaching without blowing up.  Those circumstances may be rare.

2.  If you don't know what to say, don't feel like you have to say anything other than encouragement.

3.  Keep it positive.  Stuff like "you are moving to slow" or "your return of serve is terrible" is not particularly helpful.

4.  You have less than 60 seconds.  Not time to list too many things.  One or two, more than that and the student won't take it in.

5.  A useful technique is ask your student if they can tell what is going on.

6.  You will often see a pattern that the student is simply not aware of. 

7.  A new one I will list here is it is a really good idea to have a bottle of water and a towel for your student during the timeout.
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jrscatman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2013 at 4:00pm
Baal, 
Good job with the summary very helpful.

I would like to say point #2 is very important. There were more than few matches, I would or could have won - if not for coaching from my well meaning friends. These guys are much higher level players - who are more skilled and accomplished than me. The problem was their tips and suggestions just confused me and whatever, I had going - just disappeared. So now I tell everyone - if I am winning - just let me do whatever I'm doing - even if it's completely incorrect. 

This is only in tournament and rated league matches - otherwise, I always looking for suggestions from others.


Edited by jrscatman - 10/08/2013 at 1:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2013 at 4:28pm
Another thing I've found that helps me, but could be good to help others as well, is some standard questions to answer about your opponent as quickly as possible. 

Things like:
  • Which side is their strong side?
  • Are they better at receiving topspin serves or underspin serves?
  • Are they better against short serves or long serves?
  • Which side do they prefer to cover their elbow with?
I find the answering of questions like this gives some purpose to my tactics in the first game. At the end of the first match, you can hopefully have enough data gathered to make some adjustments to hone in on the weaknesses. This is of course assuming you haven't had time to watch them play prior to the match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2013 at 4:33pm
To me, if outside eyes I trusted could just tell me to be more conservative or more aggressive that would be great.  Open quicker, or try making them open more could be another way to put it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2013 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:


To me, if outside eyes I trusted could just tell me to be more conservative or more aggressive that would be great.  Open quicker, or try making them open more could be another way to put it.
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