how to beat players who are good at blocking?

ninglei23 wrote: I think I am around 1200 0r 1100

Well based on this, I would say your loop probably isn't very strong or spinny, if it were you could just overpower a blocker at that level. So you should try to get a powerful loop and overpower him.

ninglei23 wrote: I think I am around 1200 0r 1100

And this is the point (yawn) I am trying to make. It is all well and good quoting what is the right thing to do against 'blockers' from books/coaches etc, but what has to be taken into account is the level of the player asking the question. Quoting passages from books? always written by experts, pro's, advanced players, is always totally correct advice, it has to be, they have proved it, but what has to be taken into account is the real fact that the implementation of the advice given can realistically be realised by the recipient. It 99 times of a 100 can't because the recipient does not  play/practice enough to realistically realise the advice given, even though the advice is rock solid correct.

tpgh2k wrote: so APW, would you agree that an applicable suggestion would be to get more arc into his shots?

 Phew, let be think about that.

APW46 wrote: I would say that at US 1200 standard, he just needs to hit the table one more time than the other guy. (rule number 1)

Edited by ejmaster - 05/06/2011 at 7:27pm

BH-Man wrote: Danie, I said it was not a good idea to powerloop (with a steparound FH) from the BH corner with a FH, unless you were pretty sure to finish the point right there. Otherwise, it is too easy to fast block it away from you for an easy winner. I don't care how young my opponent is. If they step around and try to blast a FH by me AND I can block fast block it back to the FH, the point is over, no matter how young they are or even if they know exactly what I am about to do. If they put too much "Hot Sauce" on that ball and I fast block it away, point is simply over. That happens to me on attack when I get too greedy and hit it where they are expecting it. The ones who do a safer block... yes, those balls have the chance for the attacker to get to and still attack strong, either with power or spin.   I see your point about the difference in the abilities of a 40+ dude and a teens/young 20's player to recover and get to a ball on the wide FH. Still, hitting a powershot like that out of position a foot or more from the side of the table invites a quick end to the point if the blocker can see it and be there. Then again, a lot of good offensive players are really good at disguising where they will hit until it is too late. A lot of Koreans here are very good at that.   On receive, I essentially have become a blocker, until I can see a chance to take over control of the point. (Like a long serve in my power zones or loose ball) I push deliberately to the BH corner and FH corner, wanting the opponent to move and attack, so I can block it away from them and get them on my Yo-Yo (moving them back and forth almost at will), until they miss or give me a chance to go ballistic on them. This works if I can tell where they are about to attack. This doesn't work if my push is low quality and the attacker is too smooth in his arm/wrist control at impact. (and has good power/high landing%) Those jokers (Usually high level J-Penners) are a bad day for me and force me to try giving them a half-long push to attack more with spin than power, which I soft block to keep them attacking to miss, or fast block it to an uncomfortable spot.     Another tactic, which would likely be advocated with someone with an excellent BH, like William TTEdge, is to use the BH to open if the ball in coming to your BH. You can still get heavy spin and if the block is not almost perfect, you set yourself up to blast away with speed/spin, or pure speed as suggested before. The BH can be quite sudden and a point ending shot as you can make it difficult to forsee the racket angle at impact, because a small change in timing totally alters the angle of the shot and the stroke is so fast that sometimes it can just be too late. However, it can be hard to make a good judgement on which balls to attack with BH and which ones not to do so.   A good reason why looping to half deep (halfway between net and endline depth), then looping near endline, is that it is very difficult for the blocker to establish/maintain rythm. In RSM's training video, it shows one of his tactics of blocking 2-3 times to one corner, then suddenly fast blocking down the line. That can work if you can control the point (realy more of the attacker's options, instead really controlling the point, maybe even inviting opponent to attack to a certain zone) with your blocking and knowledge/anticipation of your opponent's attack.  It is surprisingly difficult to block a medium-fast ball deep on endline, then move in and block a slow, super spinny ball that lands just over the net. The blocker has to move right up to the ball. Blocking it later is possible, but most be done more softly, plus that gives attacker more time and an easier ball to keep attacking.   Maybe also try out the reverse of the blocker's tactic. Loop a few medium loops to one side, then hit with power and low spin to the other side. That assumes blocker blocks that ball the same or you can pretty much know where it is going.

yep, danie must be very good. you have to make sure that the ball won't come back if you commit to a fh drive from the bh corner. it could be the level of opponent too...but i highly doubt that. i really would love to see a clip of him playing so that i could get some good tips and tricks =)

APW46 wrote: I would say that at US 1200 standard, he just needs to hit the table one more time than the other guy. (rule number 1)

 

I worry that providing a common platitude like this will be seen by the 1200 player as not even trying to help them. I think it’s important to be careful with platitudes because the 1200 player might start to think there isn't any reason to ask questions or try new things because they aren't good enough for someone to bother to give them the benefit of their true knowledge.

 

I've coached many 1200 players, hundreds in fact and while some are indeed un-coachable, the majority are and they are eager to learn about the game and are in general more than capable of taking in coaching knowledge and filtering it accord to their current understanding of the game.

 

A 1200 player in the US isn't a buffoon or a drooling idiot.  In fact a 1200 player would look like a very good player to someone off the street.  Making basic suggestions like hit the ball deeper into the court, hit to their middle, serve short then hit the 3^rd ball long, move the ball around, etc. are not going to confound a 1200 player and it won’t wreck their game.  Would it be better to watch the 1200 player and provide specific coaching help, absolutely but that’s not entirely practical on a forum and I believe that the 1200 player wouldn’t have asked if they had someone local with the knowledge to answer the question.

 

One last comment; the issues of knowing the competency of the source of information is inherent when looking for information and help on the Internet.  These types of forums are excellent resources because the competency of the information and help is always peer reviewed and with few exceptions those peers are happy to jump all over something that they believe is incorrect, badly worded, poorly defined, etc.  What this means to me is that if a 1200 player asks a question there is an excellent chance that the answer to their question will be solidly contained within the sum of the posts for their question even if some of that information is misleading, incorrect or contextually inaccurate.

Internet forums are about psychological endurance not competence.

chu_bun wrote: You must be really good.  Even at highest level, a down the line block against an inside out FH power loop usually a point for the blocker.  For example, watch Rye Sueng Min matches.  This happens to everybody but RSM runs around to hit with his FH all the time so you don't have wait long to see it. I'm not a blocker, but I often play a blocking game when I'm tired or nervous, and I find it more effective against lower level 1-wing loopers.  I can push such players around and hope that they miss.  Against decent two wing loopers, it's more or less target practice for them.  The ball just coming back usually with more pace.  I have a better chance counter hit.  Maybe it's true that offense is the best defense. I think you can see something similar when comparing Kenta vs Malin against Kenta vs Timo matches.

tpgh2k wrote: yep, danie must be very good. you have to make sure that the ball won't come back if you commit to a fh drive from the bh corner. it could be the level of opponent too...but i highly doubt that. i really would love to see a clip of him playing so that i could get some good tips and tricks =)

Infinite.Potential wrote: APW46 wrote: I would say that at US 1200 standard, he just needs to hit the table one more time than the other guy. (rule number 1)   I worry that providing a common platitude like this will be seen by the 1200 player as not even trying to help them.

I am about in that 1200 range and getting the ball back one more time was exactly what I was thinking after the Pacific Rim tournament.  I watch many matches and most rallies didn't last past four strokes.  I think many where trying to play well beyond their comfort level/ability and were giving away points. They weren't playing smart. There is a difference between knowing how to make the shot and having the mental concentration to actually make the shot during a game thus giving the other guy a chance to screw up.

A 1200 player in the US isn't a buffoon or a drooling idiot.  In fact a 1200 player would look like a very good player to someone off the street.  Making basic suggestions like hit the ball deeper into the court, hit to their middle, serve short then hit the 3rd ball long, move the ball around, etc. are not going to confound a 1200 player and it won’t wreck their game.  Would it be better to watch the 1200 player and provide specific coaching help, absolutely but that’s not entirely practical on a forum and I believe that the 1200 player wouldn’t have asked if they had someone local with the knowledge to answer the question.

I agree.  I can figure those things out on my own.  I agree with the statements about tips for 2000+ players being not applicable for 1200 players and probably anyone that isn't that mobile.  Telling an old guy that his footwork sucks doesn't help much.  He probably knows that too and is playing just to stay in shape the best he can.

If you are a coach and want to help a 1200 player out, help him get through the first four strokes.
For me I would want help on serves, serve returns, third and forth ball attacks and defense.   One can practice just getting the ball back, reacting to random balls, and foot work with a robot.

Another thing that p!$$e$ me off initially are coaches that want to show they can blast balls by me.  Well duh.  A year later they still can but I don't give them as many opportunities now and I blast some balls by them too.  The ratio now is better and not so discouraging.

Infinite.Potential wrote: APW46 wrote: I would say that at US 1200 standard, he just needs to hit the table one more time than the other guy. (rule number 1)   I worry that providing a common platitude like this will be seen by the 1200 player as not even trying to help them. I think it’s important to be careful with platitudes because the 1200 player might start to think there isn't any reason to ask questions or try new things because they aren't good enough for someone to bother to give them the benefit of their true knowledge.     A 1200 player in the US isn't a buffoon or a drooling idiot.

 

I found this video.  Great blocking.

danie wrote: Fruit loop wrote: Seems danie is going to win the wttc well,i can't win the wttc,and i'm not participating either, but I can definitely beat you( a sarcastic person),if you want me to prove it,play with me,i'll make sure you don't win a single set

 

BH-Man wrote: danie wrote: Fruit loop wrote: Seems danie is going to win the wttc well,i can't win the wttc,and i'm not participating either, but I can definitely beat you( a sarcastic person),if you want me to prove it,play with me,i'll make sure you don't win a single set   I would wager one standard lunch ration that would not happen in a match, Danie vs Fruit Loop.   But then again, if one party pulls a Tanya Harding, that could change things a bit. :)   Looks like the stuff for another thread.   Danie, I am not doubting that you have an exceptional attack or footwork, you do not talk like a USATT 800 newb. I just do not believe that you would be able to step around your BH corner, hit a FAST powerloop to your opponent's FH or middle, have it fast blocked to your wide FH corner or past it, and you can recover enough to get near the ball, lest even you can continue your attack in that situation. If you can do that, I need to eat whatever you eat for breakfast, learn its recepe, then license it and earn royalties for the rest of my old days.   To put in perspective, I don't think even the pros will get to that ball, assuming they hit it near max power, AND the opponent was close to the table, AND the opponent used an active fast block, AND that block goes to wide FH corner or more wide, especially if the block added some sidespin to make it tail off even moar. That sequence is point over, even for pros, even if they see it coming and try to get there.

i don't care who you are, you're not getting to the ball if they block a fully committed shot as bh man describes. just look @ ma long vs samsonov in the world cup semi final where samsonov won.