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Intermediate Player Dilemma!

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mhnh007 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by sticharo sticharo wrote:


I don't use my inverted to loop.....I use it to serve....push....and smash.  That is 99.5% of my inverted usage. I'm the perfect candidate for SP. I've tried it....and I just prefer the feel of an inverted rubber.  My flat hits remind me of the old time basketball players that used set shots. It ain't pretty but it works.

You are already playing with a LP combo, and the inverted help you set up for a lot of pop up balls, so you have more opportunities to put the ball away, and inverted is perfect for that, also it give you more option on serves, so there is wonder you prefer inverted over SP, and no you are not a perfect candidate for SP.  Imagine you have to replace your LP with SP, MP, or Inverted, then you will see why tommyzai prefers the right rubber (SP) for what he wants to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 1:31pm
I'm still trying to figure out if SP is for me. I have terrible form, but I mostly can rally well with inverted. The problem is . . . I have a lot of trouble attacking underspin. As a result, I often get into pushing wars with my LP/backhand and chicken-wing everything. When I do try to open up, run around, and attack with my FH, I usually miscalculate the amount of incoming spin and either hit into the net or off the table . . . even on easy kill shots. This is where I hope SP would help me . . . hit through the spin on popped up balls. However, what will I lose by going to SP?

Edited by tommyzai - 03/14/2014 at 1:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 1:35pm
you will lose everything that is enjoyable in table tennis.
puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

you will lose everything that is enjoyable in table tennis.

Are you saying a player must loop to enjoy? Please explain. This was kind of what I was thinking, but so many have pleaded with me to embrace SP. All opinions, sane and insane are welcome!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sticharo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 2:04pm
"You are already playing with a LP combo, and the inverted help you set up for a lot of pop up balls"

No. My LP play sets up my FH.  I wouldn't play with LP or anything else if inverted alone could generate as many loose balls as LP does for my style of play.  What would be the point?

And I gathered that Tommy really didn't know exactly what he wanted to do. My general point was that he or anyone else can use inverted and not be tethered to looping.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

you will lose everything that is enjoyable in table tennis.

Are you saying a player must loop to enjoy? Please explain. This was kind of what I was thinking, but so many have pleaded with me to embrace SP. All opinions, sane and insane are welcome!

That's crazy talk.  

Whatever setup you choose there is always strategy and skill and the challenge of an opponent to enjoy in TT.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote townhousecrackers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 2:13pm

What it sounds like the OP is really looking for is some lessons.

 
Equipment matters less
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by sticharo sticharo wrote:

. . . And I gathered that Tommy really didn't know exactly what he wanted to do. My general point was that he or anyone else can use inverted and not be tethered to looping.

I guess another question is . . . which is a better compliment to the LP backhand, SP or INVERTED?

Inverted allows for more spin and contrast to the LP, which yields more popped up balls.

Short pips will enable more effective attack of popped up balls and underspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puppy412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 2:45pm
why do you think it's easier to attack underspin with pips than it is with inverted?

as for attacking popped up balls I'm not sure it's easier with short pips.

I think people confuse what is easier with short pips with what is doable with short pips.
with short pips you are limited to flat hitting in most situations.
this doesn't mean that it's easier, you do it because it's the only thing you can do.
people confuse this with thinking it is easier because they see players do this.


Edited by puppy412 - 03/14/2014 at 2:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote townhousecrackers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by sticharo sticharo wrote:

. . . And I gathered that Tommy really didn't know exactly what he wanted to do. My general point was that he or anyone else can use inverted and not be tethered to looping.

I guess another question is . . . which is a better compliment to the LP backhand, SP or INVERTED?

Inverted allows for more spin and contrast to the LP, which yields more popped up balls.

Short pips will enable more effective attack of popped up balls and underspin.
 
This is what I don't get. Inverted is great for attacking pop ups, and also allows more control for looping backspin.
 
Short pips offer a different dimension for blocking and hitting at the table. Not for looping backspin, although they can smack pop ups pretty good
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 3:00pm
Most people use pips as change of pace. The only advantage pips have over inverted is that being less reactive to spin allows for hitting, but that makes it harder to control balls without spin or to put spin on the ball.

If you use pips, it is easier to take the ball early if it has spin on it. But don't confuse that with pips being easier to use to attack underspin.   Generally, in table tennis, you need to be able to set up your opponents and finish them off. I recommend pips as a good way to set people up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puppy412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by puppy412 puppy412 wrote:

why do you think it's easier to attack underspin with pips than it is with inverted?

as for attacking popped up balls I'm not sure it's easier with short pips.

I think people confuse what is easier with short pips with what is doable with short pips.
with short pips you are limited to flat hitting in most situations.
this doesn't mean that it's easier, you do it because it's the only thing you can do.
people confuse this with thinking it is easier because they see players do this.


when using short pips I improved my flat hitting a lot.
this is simply because all I could do was flat hit.
so naturally I became better at this.
playing against a lobber -> flat hit
playing against a chopper -> flat hit
playing against a looper -> flat hit
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 3:16pm
"Why do you think it's easier to attack underspin with pips than it is with inverted?"

If you are good at brush looping, attacking underspin with inverted is probably fun, but in my case . . . all I do is a weak push or hit into the net. Please remember, I have a disability and training will not help me brush loop better. If it were purely learning how . . . I would have been doing it 10 years ago. :-).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

I guess another question is . . . which is a better compliment to the LP backhand, SP or INVERTED?

Inverted allows for more spin and contrast to the LP, which yields more popped up balls.

Short pips will enable more effective attack of popped up balls and underspin.


Ideally the best combo is a fast SP with the ability to generate lots of spin and at the same time spin-insensitive, and a LP that allows you to drastically change pace of the game.  Of course, no such combo exists so you have to live with the compromises of your choices. 

The best SP I have found for this type of combo is Juic Offense Ultima in black with 2.0 sponge, if you can live with somewhat reduced spin generating capability in serves and pushes.  Right now I am using Stiga Clippa in black with 2.0 sponge on my SP/LP setup, as it's almost as good as Offense Ultima in all aspects and I can generate more spin.  The downside of it is it is a bit less "precise" in attacking spinny balls. 

I have found that pretty much all red versions of SPs are inferior in spin generating capability when it comes to serves and pushes, so you may want to stay away from red SPs.  An exception is the Butt-fly Flarestorm in red with 2.1 sponge (original version, not "Flarestorm II"), a nice comprise as a do-it-all SPs for the combo player.  As to LPs, almost all cheap Chinese LPs in red are good, but since you are used to Dtecs (if I am not mistaken) it's simply a fantastic rubber and I see no reason to change it.




Edited by roundrobin - 03/14/2014 at 3:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puppy412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

"Why do you think it's easier to attack underspin with pips than it is with inverted?"

If you are good at brush looping, attacking underspin with inverted is probably fun, but in my case . . . all I do is a weak push or hit into the net. Please remember, I have a disability and training will not help me brush loop better. If it were purely learning how . . . I would have been doing it 10 years ago. :-).


so what do you plan to do with short pips when you get an underspin ball?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 4:03pm
Tommy
there is no absolute "best" sp or "best" inverted. But any rubber which you select and work with for a decent length of time ought to perform better for you as you get used to it.
My own attitude to my setup is that I want equipment that I can 'forget about'. Then I can concentrate on technique and on my opponent which is when the fun starts.
I recommend this approach to you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krantz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2014 at 8:00pm
I have seen that you are counter-hitting just fine - I wonder what would happen if you just lower your position (squat a bit) during backswing and execute the same drive stroke while rising your body - this alone should add some upward vector to the stroke and could result in a proper, arching loop (probably its easier to hit the ball after the peak of the bounce for this to work - if it will work at all that is.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2014 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by Krantz Krantz wrote:

I have seen that you are counter-hitting just fine - I wonder what would happen if you just lower your position (squat a bit) during backswing and execute the same drive stroke while rising your body - this alone should add some upward vector to the stroke and could result in a proper, arching loop (probably its easier to hit the ball after the peak of the bounce for this to work - if it will work at all that is.)

Krantz, is this comment for me? If so, when did you see me? Your advice sounds good regardless. Do you recommend staying with inverted or going to SP? I am training in the garage right now . . . not sure I like flat hitting. Time must be perfect or the ball does in the net or off the table . . . much less room for error it seems.


Edited by tommyzai - 03/15/2014 at 8:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2014 at 10:00pm
If you want margin for error, you loop. If you want to hit you have to play with the law of average's … you only have to hit 51% percent of them successfully
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krantz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2014 at 3:59am
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:


Krantz, is this comment for me? If so, when did you see me? Your advice sounds good regardless. Do you recommend staying with inverted or going to SP? I am training in the garage right now . . . not sure I like flat hitting. Time must be perfect or the ball does in the net or off the table . . . much less room for error it seems.

I googled your name with 'video' added - bingo :D 

I haven't played with SP for ages so cannot recommend much here, but now when you asked I have thought that He Zhi Wen is one hell of a beast and I would probably pretty enjoy this style. 

After all, people were having fun with TT long before this loop thing and inverted rubbers were even invented and I think that both options are sure still valid for amateur game - so indeed you have a hard dilemma here..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2014 at 4:54am
Did you forget the Mexican taco girls great wisdom ?.

Why not have both..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2014 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Krantz Krantz wrote:

Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:


Krantz, is this comment for me? If so, when did you see me? 

I googled your name with 'video' added - bingo :D 


LOL. That's either a video of me playing Seemiller style from about 2008 or Cpen style from 2010. Glad my countering look okay. I better post something new . . . a lot has changed since then. :-).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2014 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

you only have to hit 51% percent of them successfully
No, one must hit back a greater percentage than the opponent.  If the opponent is good and gets back 90% or more then you better get back even a greater percentage.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2014 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

you only have to hit 51% percent of them successfully

No, one must hit back a greater percentage than the opponent.  If the opponent is good and gets back 90% or more then you better get back even a greater percentage.


winning a game 11-9 means getting about 52%. Close enough I think!
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I would rather win 11-5. :-)
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