Is Multiball Helping?

Other than your strokes, it will help your footwork. it makes you play more actively versus "re-actively"

Multiball training is the best way to improve you table tennis skill.  (multi balls gave by robot and coach are two different thing, if your coach use robot, FIRED HIM)

mr.ishaq wrote: Hi My problem is I can't play well after doing some multiball sessions with a local coach. My forms went weird and I felt weird. Recently, I avoid coach multiball sessions, make myself occupied with visitors who want to do basic strokes. I know it was rude but I played better rather than training with coach. Is multiball training session really helping? Did I do it the wrong way ie shouldn't play after sessions?

Hi Ishaq
You are tired after multiball, so that means you worked hard which is good.

However if you think you should just play without training because you play better when not tired, then you are being short sighted. Training, (multiball & 1 ball drills) are for your future as a player. If you skip training, maybe you will beat your clubmate today, but you will not play well in tournaments in the future.

However I agree with Leshxa, I must say that if multiball is done in the wrong way it can be a bad thing. Many times I see videos of players doing multiball and they are missing maybe 50% of the balls. Either the coach is feeding too fast, or the players stroke and footwork is not good enough. In this case the players should do consistency training with 1 ball. When you you can do a 20 shot rally falkenberg drill, then you are ready to do it multiball.

The problem with multiball & robot is that when you make a mistake, you still get fed another ball. This rewards failure too much. So many times I see players pleased after super fast multiball, but they missed nearly 50% of the balls!! That kind of multiball does harm to your game.
With 1 ball if you make a 20 shot rally it is a proof of your consistency. then maybe you are ready for multiball

Edited by pingpongpaddy - 11/17/2012 at 4:59am

multiball is only as good as your coach

its rather a case to case basis and also your own innovative ways to deal with such players. i think its important to accept that not all who players who learn table tennis can be competitively good. i think from experience, 2 out of 10 kids are the ones that can be that good. the other 8 can have good strokes but doesn't have what it takes to be champs. also, patience is the key for these players. one thing i have learned from my mentor who is a former national champion and national coach told me that it is ok for kids to miss their shots provided they did the right execution of the stroke. time will come they will develop their accuracy better. i think he simply means that you have to be patient and let the player mature together with the right guidance. if there are errors in the stroke, always go back to the basics, step by step of each stroke.

BH-Man wrote: Leshxa wrote: mr.ishaq wrote: Hi My problem is I can't play well after doing some multiball sessions with a local coach. My forms went weird and I felt weird. Recently, I avoid coach multiball sessions, make myself occupied with visitors who want to do basic strokes. I know it was rude but I played better rather than training with coach.  Is multiball training session really helping? Did I do it the wrong way ie shouldn't play after sessions? It really depends on what you aim to accomplish. Multiball has its uses, but for beginners and intermediate players I think multiball is a wrong way to go. These players would benefit a lot more from consistency training with one ball rather than blind speed and power. I also strongly believe that many "coaches" tend to hide behind multiball training as a teaching methodology as opposed to actually teaching and explaining things.   I can't argue with the results of how Koreans teach, even if I think they stay too long on the simple things in the beginning. Multiball is one of the big things for beginners and a lot of U1600 UASTTish level players, prolly about 70% multiball, 30% single ball on real simple strokes. Once players are able to certain things to a certain standard, the multiball drills get more complicated and are really accelerated versions of combination drills. Once you get to about 2000 USATT level, there is probably 70% + Single ball and less than 30% multiball, and even those are combo drills, for example, coach feeds an underspin to Bh corner, you BH loop it, coach feeds a simulation of a blocked ball to BH corner, you step around and FH loop, coach quickly feeds a ball to wide Fh down the line, you crossover step and finish the ball.   Multiball is important to coaches in Korea and it seems the whole bunch of them know what they are doing and have a system. (I need to steal their coaching manual before I leave Korea!) Coaches are very detailed to explain what errors are beng made and sometimes, it can get really comical. (as a bystander watching the action)

I've reached 2k without ANY multiball training. It also didn't take me 4 years to get there...

I've done a few sessions since then, but those were never the "hit all forehands anywhere" training or do "100" backhands training. All multiball training that was done since then was combination training consisting of 3-7 shot combinations, where if I go with sufficient power and speed on my shots as I am supposed to in real game, the partner would have a hard time controlling the placement of the next return. So its best to mimic this specialized training with a multiball feel.

I still strongly believe that many people do not understand how to properly construct their training and make up pointless multiball sessions and even worse - paying for them. These multiball sessions would have been easily and better replaced by a proper robot routine.

I also wanted to say that regarding your quote above about 1600USATT training multiball at 70% and 2k+ doing it at 30%, it seems very much incorrect to me. One can easily be 1600-1800 without any footwork or even with huge glaring weaknesses in the game. At 2k+ footwork becomes a significant requirement to further improvement.


Edited by Leshxa - 11/17/2012 at 9:19am

yogi_bear wrote: multiball drilling is the best way to learn the basic skills and strokes. most people think that if you do multiball you will already become very good. however, multibal drill is but one part of several essential methods to fully develop a game. if you are starting to develop your strokes, do not focus on winning but rather on the development of correct strokes. coupled with technical table drill, service receive and doing serves, countering after you do multiball will greatly improve your game. i wil not let people tell me that multiball is not good for beginners because in the 3 years that i am doing coaching (close to 100 kids and counting) , the ones who do multiball at the start develop faster than those who don't. sure those players who were taught just how to score will win at first but kids or players who have learned the basics thru multiballing develop better gameplays

V-Griper wrote: Here is the longer thread debating this issue. http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=44321&PID=551550&title=multi-ball-training-pros-and-cons Leshxa- Multball is just a method of getting a lot of repetition, which is essential for development in anything, in a relatively short amount of time. But what is equally as important, and often overlooked, is the quality of of that repetition. Deliberate practice, as Anders Ericsson puts it. I think it is the latter issue that you are addressing and rightfully so. Coaches who are trying to exploit students for money and/or resources, or who just don't know what they are doing, can and do use multiball to create false sense of accomplishment. Leshxa wrote: I've reached 2k without ANY multiball training. It also didn't take me 4 years to get there... Yes but I would argue that this is mostly due to other factors rather than whether or not you did multiball. To state the converse would be to say that you would not have reached 2k had you done multiball. I am not saying it is necessary just that it can be more efficient. Leshxa wrote: I've done a few sessions since then, but those were never the "hit all forehands anywhere" training or do "100" backhands training. That is somewhat of a straw man argument. The time to do this is if you are trying to resolve stroke mechanics issues where you don’t want to worry so much about where the ball is going as how you hit the ball. This is evident in these vids where you see LGL giving advice for stroke correction. Leshxa wrote: All multiball training that was done since then was combination training consisting of 3-7 shot combinations, where if I go with sufficient power and speed on my shots as I am supposed to in real game, the partner would have a hard time controlling the placement of the next return. So its best to mimic this specialized training with a multiball feel. You might want to consider doing some random and overload training as well then. Leshxa wrote: I still strongly believe that many people do not understand how to properly construct their training and make up pointless multiball sessions and even worse - paying for them. These multiball sessions would have been easily and better replaced by a proper robot routine. +1 People also do pointless table work or just hit a few fh’s and bh’s and start playing. It’s not the tool but the intent of the user. Also I consider using a robot as multiball just with a different feeder. Given a choice I would rather have a human feeder though. Leshxa wrote: I also wanted to say that regarding your quote above about 1600USATT training multiball at 70% and 2k+ doing it at 30%, it seems very much incorrect to me. One can easily be 1600-1800 without any footwork or even with huge glaring weaknesses in the game. At 2k+ footwork becomes a significant requirement to further improvement. I am not sure but I think he was referring to Jr’s who are probably laying down the foundation for longer term development.

I am familiar with the concept of deliberate practice, so lets look at the multiball. What is deliberately being worked on by multiball that will be purposeful in a match? In depth look shows, that multiball generally is great at learning many things, but not all of the skills worked on in the multiball directly transfer into a match, especially at the beginner and intermediate level.

There are two patterns of thought for training. One adopted by players who swear by multiball training is that these players would rather learn to be quick, fast, powerful first, then they want to learn to to apply their skills to win. The other thought is adopted from the concepts in tennis - first learn to hit the ball in, and then learn to hit it hard.  So the difference is that the first group of players train top down - using the best of the best as example, the other group learns bottom up - learning to apply their present skills and improving them slightly. I think most amateurs would benefit from the 2nd approach more, rather than the 1st. If someone wants to be a world champion from the get go and knows that he is committed enough to do EVERYTHING to get there, then first approach is certainly viable.

V-Griper wrote: Leshxa wrote: I've reached 2k without ANY multiball training. It also didn't take me 4 years to get there... Yes but I would argue that this is mostly due to other factors rather than whether or not you did multiball. To state the converse would be to say that you would not have reached 2k had you done multiball. I am not saying it is necessary just that it can be more efficient.

Which factors are you referring to above? I am sorry I don't quite understand.

I never stated the converse by the way. I have seen quite a few players go through multiball regiment, but I haven't seen any real evidence that these players achieved their goals faster or went further. I know that players who train with too much multiball struggle against pip and anti because they never train against it, since multiball really doesn't cover that too well. Although you can mimic anti and pip shots with multiball, this does not facilitate the learning environment to understand the effects these rubbers have on the ball in order to prepare the player for the next shot.


Again, I am not against it, but I would urge anyone to train in accordance with a solid development program for table tennis. It is not enough to multiball and expect to be able to blast through all the levels of table tennis quickly and easily. There are skills that cannot be learned well with multiball.

On a side note, I have a feeling that this is exactly whey US is behind in table tennis. The notion of adopting training from abroad and making it a blind rule without truly having a formal development program in many places is counter productive. Only in a few areas around the country where the programs are strong and sound are the places where the better players emerge. The rest of the places seem to produce mostly amateurs.

Rack wrote: I've always been a supporter that coaching should be flexible and adapt to the way the student learns the best.  Some students can gain a ton from multiball while others will not gain much.   I've seen coached students multiballed for years only to result them being "programmed" in terms that sure they can multiball awesome, but when it comes to a true game scenario and incoming balls are randomized from the opponent, they do horribly because they're too use to knowing whats coming from the multiball instead of truly reading the opponent and reacting.   I've also seen the opposite where a heavy dose of multiball made some players alot better.   So the way I see it, it's the coaches job to really ask the student how much they feel they're gaining learning that way and what results are being shown in terms of actual game play.  Alot of students feel cheated being multiballed heavily when it doesn't translate alot in actual games so in reality, it feels like they paid $30+ an hour to have a hitting partner.    Personally, unless ones planning to really get serious in table tennis and go as high as possible, I feel that normal club players gain more from coaches actually teaching them the game with a little multiball sprinkled in for scenario training vs multiballing them endlessly.

Well said!

Multiball is a training tool, not THE training.

bbkon wrote: yogi_bear wrote: multiball drilling is the best way to learn the basic skills and strokes. most people think that if you do multiball you will already become very good. however, multibal drill is but one part of several essential methods to fully develop a game. if you are starting to develop your strokes, do not focus on winning but rather on the development of correct strokes. coupled with technical table drill, service receive and doing serves, countering after you do multiball will greatly improve your game. i wil not let people tell me that multiball is not good for beginners because in the 3 years that i am doing coaching (close to 100 kids and counting) , the ones who do multiball at the start develop faster than those who don't. sure those players who were taught just how to score will win at first but kids or players who have learned the basics thru multiballing develop better game plays yogi bear can you give me the details of drills when coaching your kids?  cant find manuals for teaching kids, how to develop forehand(the do's and donts)

Leshxa wrote: BH-Man wrote: Leshxa wrote: mr.ishaq wrote: Hi My problem is I can't play well after doing some multiball sessions with a local coach. My forms went weird and I felt weird. Recently, I avoid coach multiball sessions, make myself occupied with visitors who want to do basic strokes. I know it was rude but I played better rather than training with coach.  Is multiball training session really helping? Did I do it the wrong way ie shouldn't play after sessions? It really depends on what you aim to accomplish. Multiball has its uses, but for beginners and intermediate players I think multiball is a wrong way to go. These players would benefit a lot more from consistency training with one ball rather than blind speed and power. I also strongly believe that many "coaches" tend to hide behind multiball training as a teaching methodology as opposed to actually teaching and explaining things.   I can't argue with the results of how Koreans teach, even if I think they stay too long on the simple things in the beginning. Multiball is one of the big things for beginners and a lot of U1600 UASTTish level players, prolly about 70% multiball, 30% single ball on real simple strokes. Once players are able to certain things to a certain standard, the multiball drills get more complicated and are really accelerated versions of combination drills. Once you get to about 2000 USATT level, there is probably 70% + Single ball and less than 30% multiball, and even those are combo drills, for example, coach feeds an underspin to Bh corner, you BH loop it, coach feeds a simulation of a blocked ball to BH corner, you step around and FH loop, coach quickly feeds a ball to wide Fh down the line, you crossover step and finish the ball.   Multiball is important to coaches in Korea and it seems the whole bunch of them know what they are doing and have a system. (I need to steal their coaching manual before I leave Korea!) Coaches are very detailed to explain what errors are beng made and sometimes, it can get really comical. (as a bystander watching the action) I've reached 2k without ANY multiball training. It also didn't take me 4 years to get there... I've done a few sessions since then, but those were never the "hit all forehands anywhere" training or do "100" backhands training. All multiball training that was done since then was combination training consisting of 3-7 shot combinations, where if I go with sufficient power and speed on my shots as I am supposed to in real game, the partner would have a hard time controlling the placement of the next return. So its best to mimic this specialized training with a multiball feel. This (what you describe above) is the exactly the kind of multiball training you do as an O2000 player in Korea. Usally, the multiball drills simulate three balls in a rally that is hard for coach to duplicate with single ball drills. There are  once you hit near 2000 USATT playing level, many single ball drills that involve a lot of combinations of strokes where you hit to the coaches middle or BH  corner and coach blocks or counters to the point in the drill. Another example is the single ball drill where coach serves short to FH, you drop short, coach pushes long to BH, you BH loop cross court, coach blocks cross court, you loop cross court to coaches BH corner, coach blocks fast down the line and you race for your life to get there and make a loop to coaches BH corner, (if you COULD get to it) coach blocks cross court, you footwork your way to the ball and make a BH drive cross court (if you were able to stay in this point after already being at or surpassing point of exhaustion from the work earlier in session) and coach keeps running you back and forth until you (or her) miss. I still strongly believe that many people do not understand how to properly construct their training and make up pointless multiball sessions and even worse - paying for them. These multiball sessions would have been easily and better replaced by a proper robot routine.  I agree this is the case in USA, and in Korea when players use the robot by themselves. The overwhelming majority (IMHO (crappy opinion if you like the ring of that) that there are entirely too many coaches in USA who are more focused much more on their income stream than making the player develop to perform better in competition. How many USA rich jokers shell out over $50 an hour for years and are still under 1500 USATT rating? When I visited a large national club on one of my road escapades while in USA, I did a lot of warmup with a 1300ish USATT Gent who had been taking lessons for years. His FH topspin was consistant,not overpowering, and about the only stroke he could do. if the game was centered around hitting a medium spin topspin FH to FH that looks pretty and looks way better than his true level, then he would have done alright. You give this gent any topspin back or change locations, he was in the twilight zone. That is typical of a number of peoples in USA who have a lot of $$$ to burn, and coach is ready to string that player along to milk him for all he will cough up. What makes this worse, is that some USA players admittedly are not in it to become a TT beast, but to grow a certain shot or learn how to defeat a certain enemy player. As for robots, just about every Korean club has a robot and you RARELY see a 2000 USATT level player use one. Many use them on thier own and totally without a plan or sense of pourpose, ALWAYS without supervison as both coaches are always busy coaching. BTW, coaching in Korea is worse than a full time job. It is very physically demanding and doesn't pay all that well, at least not enough to make you rich. A foreign friend I have here can now get by and make ends meet living much the Spartan, but it more than enough to fuel his TT dream, which makes him 100X more richer than I am. Some extreme beginners get supervised robot practice as a side tool, but the supervision is restricted to the total beginner player. I also wanted to say that regarding your quote above about 1600USATT training multiball at 70% and 2k+ doing it at 30%, it seems very much incorrect to me. One can easily be 1600-1800 without any footwork or even with huge glaring weaknesses in the game. At 2k+ footwork becomes a significant requirement to further improvement.

Rack wrote: I've always been a supporter that coaching should be flexible and adapt to the way the student learns the best.  Some students can gain a ton from multiball while others will not gain much.   I've seen coached students multiballed for years only to result them being "programmed" in terms that sure they can multiball awesome, but when it comes to a true game scenario and incoming balls are randomized from the opponent, they do horribly because they're too use to knowing whats coming from the multiball instead of truly reading the opponent and reacting.   I've also seen the opposite where a heavy dose of multiball made some players alot better.   So the way I see it, it's the coaches job to really ask the student how much they feel they're gaining learning that way and what results are being shown in terms of actual game play.  Alot of students feel cheated being multiballed heavily when it doesn't translate alot in actual games so in reality, it feels like they paid $30+ an hour to have a glorified hitting partner.  Also it's very difficult for coaches to accurately simulate how lower level opponents play when people are first learning (i know tons of people have trouble with that).    Personally, unless ones planning to really get serious in table tennis and go as high as possible, I feel that normal club players gain more from coaches actually teaching them the game with a little multiball sprinkled in for scenario training vs multiballing them endlessly.

If a coach is using a multiball drill as another way to get the cash playing player to FEEL like he is doing something physical, even if it has ZERO bearing on his improvement, he might still be willing to keep paying coach. He can brag to friends how much he gets smoked by coach in his "Private Workout" and keep feeding the cash cow troll.

Good multiball helps almost all players, even players who "learn differently".  However, I have found that if you play matches right after multiball training, you won't be at your best, which may explain the OP's comment. 

Rack is of course correct that there has to be more to coaching than just multiball.  Some people will get more out of it than others.  Also there are limits to what you can expect.  How much you play, how much you practice, how old, how quick, how old were you when you started, what are your strengths and weaknesses, etc... And, of course, how good the coach is at giving multiball.
 
I know one guy who is a very effective coach who doesn't do it at all, but he specializes more on taking people with the technique they have--older players-- and helping them get more out of it.  The Chinese coaches at our club have dozens and dozens of different multiball drills and they can deliver the balls like machines.  I pay them for an hour or two whenever I am sensing that I am getting lazy, or when there is something I need to fix. 




Edited by Baal - 11/18/2012 at 12:36am

Rack wrote:   Again, I totally agree that multiball is a very useful tool within the toolbox of a coach but there are many tools to do the same job especially if the student isn't gaining much from it in terms of real world match results.

If the coach is not really good at giving multiball, it is also of less value. It's a real skill all its own.