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ITTF has sanctioned friction tests on pimpled rubb

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2019 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that ANY of LP rubbers I use or have ever used could lose enough friction to be significant enough to be below the standard without a either extreme negligence (leaving your rubber in the car in the Corpus Christi sun over the summer) or a conscious strategy designed to lower the friction. I have played tournaments where my opponents LP looked as so old that Methuselah may have bought them, but frankly I cannot tell a difference.
If you are in Texas, try the following experiment. Play every day from 12 to 2 PM outdoors table tennis for 3 weeks and after you finish playing, you put your racket back into your case. After 3 weeks of doing this every day, check the rubber's friction and I can guarantee you it will no longer be at or above .050.
In this case, you do properly take care of your rubber but you USE it for outdoors table tennis which is NOT prohibited by the rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2019 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

...
Shows again that the ITTF is making things up. It can be scientifically proven that a rubber can drop below that level. Furthermore, there is no requirement to keep your rubber in a case. There is also "outdoor use" which is not prohibited as per the rules which will cause the rubber to wear faster. Not a single rule in place makes a racket illegal if it has been used for outdoor table tennis. It's not there. Any scientist familiar with the material used will confirm that rubber consistently uses friction and eventually ends up below the required threshold.
I don't think the keep your rubber in a case was a requirement; it was more of a suggestion.  And it's a reasonable suggestion.  Generally, people playing tournaments want to keep their equipment in good condition.  

You can play outdoors if you want to and conveniently leave it out in the sun.  There's no rule against that.  But there is a regulation that your rubber must be used as authorized.  And based on the email response I received, it's clear that as authorized means that it must meet a certain level of friction, currently 0.50 cokf.
Leaving it in the sun is treatment.. Use is not treatment.. The entire point is that there is no RULE that a rubber can't drop below 0.50.. It's entirely made up. If a rubber must have .050 to be authorized and it's used for 5 hours, it will no longer be 0.50. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that. Obviously, the ITTF has no idea of basic physics.
Rules matter of course.  But regulations *also* matter.  I know nothing about bowling.  But if I were to take it up as a hobby and there's no rule against having a big gash in your bowling ball but there's a regulation about it (or something related to the smoothness of the ball), I'd fully understand that I can't play in a sanctioned tournament with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2019 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that ANY of LP rubbers I use or have ever used could lose enough friction to be significant enough to be below the standard without a either extreme negligence (leaving your rubber in the car in the Corpus Christi sun over the summer) or a conscious strategy designed to lower the friction. I have played tournaments where my opponents LP looked as so old that Methuselah may have bought them, but frankly I cannot tell a difference.
If you are in Texas, try the following experiment. Play every day from 12 to 2 PM outdoors table tennis for 3 weeks and after you finish playing, you put your racket back into your case. After 3 weeks of doing this every day, check the rubber's friction and I can guarantee you it will no longer be at or above .050.
In this case, you do properly take care of your rubber but you USE it for outdoors table tennis which is NOT prohibited by the rules.

Knowing the weather in Texas (or Florida for that matter), playing TT outdoor there is extremely low on my list of enjoyable activities. Now if you need to do that to achieve desired state for your LP while claiming 'fair use' exemption, that's another story. Might as well optimize the process further and practice shadow strokes (or twiddling) inside a tanning booth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 7:13am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

...
Shows again that the ITTF is making things up. It can be scientifically proven that a rubber can drop below that level. Furthermore, there is no requirement to keep your rubber in a case. There is also "outdoor use" which is not prohibited as per the rules which will cause the rubber to wear faster. Not a single rule in place makes a racket illegal if it has been used for outdoor table tennis. It's not there. Any scientist familiar with the material used will confirm that rubber consistently uses friction and eventually ends up below the required threshold.
I don't think the keep your rubber in a case was a requirement; it was more of a suggestion.  And it's a reasonable suggestion.  Generally, people playing tournaments want to keep their equipment in good condition.  

You can play outdoors if you want to and conveniently leave it out in the sun.  There's no rule against that.  But there is a regulation that your rubber must be used as authorized.  And based on the email response I received, it's clear that as authorized means that it must meet a certain level of friction, currently 0.50 cokf.
Leaving it in the sun is treatment.. Use is not treatment.. The entire point is that there is no RULE that a rubber can't drop below 0.50.. It's entirely made up. If a rubber must have .050 to be authorized and it's used for 5 hours, it will no longer be 0.50. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that. Obviously, the ITTF has no idea of basic physics.
Rules matter of course.  But regulations *also* matter.  I know nothing about bowling.  But if I were to take it up as a hobby and there's no rule against having a big gash in your bowling ball but there's a regulation about it (or something related to the smoothness of the ball), I'd fully understand that I can't play in a sanctioned tournament with it.
If you closely read the equipment regulations, you will realize that they are for manufacturers and not players. As I said, there would need to be a rule that specifies the friction threshold for a rubber to be used in a tournament but such rule just isn't there. It can be scientifically proven that rubber constantly loses friction and therefore, at one point it will end up below the threshold specified for NEW rubber. That statement of the ITTF that a untreated rubber can't drop below that naturally is 100% false and can be proven false by any scientist familiar with the material used.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 7:14am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that ANY of LP rubbers I use or have ever used could lose enough friction to be significant enough to be below the standard without a either extreme negligence (leaving your rubber in the car in the Corpus Christi sun over the summer) or a conscious strategy designed to lower the friction. I have played tournaments where my opponents LP looked as so old that Methuselah may have bought them, but frankly I cannot tell a difference.
If you are in Texas, try the following experiment. Play every day from 12 to 2 PM outdoors table tennis for 3 weeks and after you finish playing, you put your racket back into your case. After 3 weeks of doing this every day, check the rubber's friction and I can guarantee you it will no longer be at or above .050.
In this case, you do properly take care of your rubber but you USE it for outdoors table tennis which is NOT prohibited by the rules.

Knowing the weather in Texas (or Florida for that matter), playing TT outdoor there is extremely low on my list of enjoyable activities. Now if you need to do that to achieve desired state for your LP while claiming 'fair use' exemption, that's another story. Might as well optimize the process further and practice shadow strokes (or twiddling) inside a tanning booth.
Well, if you have the choice to play in a 130 degree garage or outdoors in 92 degrees, I would think that you'd prefer the 92 degrees outdoors.. You can always wear a hat and sunblock but in 130 degrees in the garage, you would not last long..


Edited by Pushblocker - 08/07/2019 at 7:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 8:36am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that ANY of LP rubbers I use or have ever used could lose enough friction to be significant enough to be below the standard without a either extreme negligence (leaving your rubber in the car in the Corpus Christi sun over the summer) or a conscious strategy designed to lower the friction. I have played tournaments where my opponents LP looked as so old that Methuselah may have bought them, but frankly I cannot tell a difference.
If you are in Texas, try the following experiment. Play every day from 12 to 2 PM outdoors table tennis for 3 weeks and after you finish playing, you put your racket back into your case. After 3 weeks of doing this every day, check the rubber's friction and I can guarantee you it will no longer be at or above .050.
In this case, you do properly take care of your rubber but you USE it for outdoors table tennis which is NOT prohibited by the rules.

Knowing the weather in Texas (or Florida for that matter), playing TT outdoor there is extremely low on my list of enjoyable activities. Now if you need to do that to achieve desired state for your LP while claiming 'fair use' exemption, that's another story. Might as well optimize the process further and practice shadow strokes (or twiddling) inside a tanning booth.
LOL
When use effectively becomes treatment, it's no wonder the ITTF has to put up a notice about one of its regulations.  As for playing with little to no regulations for hours outdoors in the sun , at the park, at the beach ... Gordy has a fun sport for those that want to try that ... TTX.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that ANY of LP rubbers I use or have ever used could lose enough friction to be significant enough to be below the standard without a either extreme negligence (leaving your rubber in the car in the Corpus Christi sun over the summer) or a conscious strategy designed to lower the friction. I have played tournaments where my opponents LP looked as so old that Methuselah may have bought them, but frankly I cannot tell a difference.
If you are in Texas, try the following experiment. Play every day from 12 to 2 PM outdoors table tennis for 3 weeks and after you finish playing, you put your racket back into your case. After 3 weeks of doing this every day, check the rubber's friction and I can guarantee you it will no longer be at or above .050.
In this case, you do properly take care of your rubber but you USE it for outdoors table tennis which is NOT prohibited by the rules.

Nobody who plays USATT tournaments or ITTF tournaments plays table tennis outdoors in Florida/Texas/Arizona like that. Maybe you did it once or twice, but not that much. This falls into my "conscious strategy to lower friction" category. You are grasping at hypothetical straws and trying to justify a position. The ITTF official was right. Approved rubber is going to be just fine...unless something extreme happens.                             
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that ANY of LP rubbers I use or have ever used could lose enough friction to be significant enough to be below the standard without a either extreme negligence (leaving your rubber in the car in the Corpus Christi sun over the summer) or a conscious strategy designed to lower the friction. I have played tournaments where my opponents LP looked as so old that Methuselah may have bought them, but frankly I cannot tell a difference.
If you are in Texas, try the following experiment. Play every day from 12 to 2 PM outdoors table tennis for 3 weeks and after you finish playing, you put your racket back into your case. After 3 weeks of doing this every day, check the rubber's friction and I can guarantee you it will no longer be at or above .050.
In this case, you do properly take care of your rubber but you USE it for outdoors table tennis which is NOT prohibited by the rules.

Nobody who plays USATT tournaments or ITTF tournaments plays table tennis outdoors in Florida/Texas/Arizona like that. Maybe you did it once or twice, but not that much. This falls into my "conscious strategy to lower friction" category. You are grasping at hypothetical straws and trying to justify a position. The ITTF official was right. Approved rubber is going to be just fine...unless something extreme happens.                             
If it's not ok to play outdoors TT, then make a rule and not just make things up. Ruled don't create themselves. Based on the ITTF bylaws, the AGM has to vote on them and require a 2/3 majority. Rules don't have a spirit. They say what they say and they don't say what they don't say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purpletiesto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Based on the ITTF bylaws, the AGM has to vote on them and require a 2/3 majority.

Are you sure about that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by purpletiesto purpletiesto wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Based on the ITTF bylaws, the AGM has to vote on them and require a 2/3 majority.

Are you sure about that?
Sorry, I just checked and it requries 3/4, not 2/3.. I stand corrected

1.19.5.2.2 changes to the Laws of Table Tennis require a 3/4 majority of the votes cast;



The ITTF BoD tries to circumvent their own bylaws and force something down everyone's throat without following the proper process to change the rules.


Edited by Pushblocker - 08/07/2019 at 1:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that ANY of LP rubbers I use or have ever used could lose enough friction to be significant enough to be below the standard without a either extreme negligence (leaving your rubber in the car in the Corpus Christi sun over the summer) or a conscious strategy designed to lower the friction. I have played tournaments where my opponents LP looked as so old that Methuselah may have bought them, but frankly I cannot tell a difference.
If you are in Texas, try the following experiment. Play every day from 12 to 2 PM outdoors table tennis for 3 weeks and after you finish playing, you put your racket back into your case. After 3 weeks of doing this every day, check the rubber's friction and I can guarantee you it will no longer be at or above .050.
In this case, you do properly take care of your rubber but you USE it for outdoors table tennis which is NOT prohibited by the rules.

Nobody who plays USATT tournaments or ITTF tournaments plays table tennis outdoors in Florida/Texas/Arizona like that. Maybe you did it once or twice, but not that much. This falls into my "conscious strategy to lower friction" category. You are grasping at hypothetical straws and trying to justify a position. The ITTF official was right. Approved rubber is going to be just fine...unless something extreme happens.                             
If it's not ok to play outdoors TT, then make a rule and not just make things up. Ruled don't create themselves. Based on the ITTF bylaws, the AGM has to vote on them and require a 2/3 majority. Rules don't have a spirit. They say what they say and they don't say what they don't say.
There doesn't need to be a rule stating where you can or cannot play.... Antarctica?  Outer Space?  Only thing ITTF can deal with are effects on the rubber to ensure that it is played as authorized.  There doesn't need to be a rule change for that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purpletiesto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by purpletiesto purpletiesto wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Based on the ITTF bylaws, the AGM has to vote on them and require a 2/3 majority.

Are you sure about that?
Sorry, I just checked and it requries 3/4, not 2/3.. I stand corrected

1.19.5.2.2 changes to the Laws of Table Tennis require a 3/4 majority of the votes cast;



The ITTF BoD tries to circumvent their own bylaws and force something down everyone's throat without following the proper process to change the rules.

And there ain't nothin' you can do about it. Better start getting yo fat arse on that treadmill and start to lose some pounds because your dang cheatin' rubber gone be tested in a comp very soon. Yeeehawwww freedom. Hell yeah brother.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by purpletiesto purpletiesto wrote:

...
And there ain't nothin' you can do about it. Better start getting yo fat arse on that treadmill and start to lose some pounds because your dang cheatin' rubber gone be tested in a comp very soon. Yeeehawwww freedom. Hell yeah brother.

That was rather uncalled for - 'pushblocker' is quite fit, as far as veteran TT players are considered, judging by his videos. I'm sure we could find a few flaws with your physical appearance if you actually were, you know, as open about it as he is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by purpletiesto purpletiesto wrote:

...
And there ain't nothin' you can do about it. Better start getting yo fat arse on that treadmill and start to lose some pounds because your dang cheatin' rubber gone be tested in a comp very soon. Yeeehawwww freedom. Hell yeah brother.

That was rather uncalled for - 'pushblocker' is quite fit, as far as veteran TT players are considered, judging by his videos. I'm sure we could find a few flaws with your physical appearance if you actually were, you know, as open about it as he is.
Fully agree.  Lively discussion good.  Personal attacks bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I have a hard time believing that ANY of LP rubbers I use or have ever used could lose enough friction to be significant enough to be below the standard without a either extreme negligence (leaving your rubber in the car in the Corpus Christi sun over the summer) or a conscious strategy designed to lower the friction. I have played tournaments where my opponents LP looked as so old that Methuselah may have bought them, but frankly I cannot tell a difference.
If you are in Texas, try the following experiment. Play every day from 12 to 2 PM outdoors table tennis for 3 weeks and after you finish playing, you put your racket back into your case. After 3 weeks of doing this every day, check the rubber's friction and I can guarantee you it will no longer be at or above .050.
In this case, you do properly take care of your rubber but you USE it for outdoors table tennis which is NOT prohibited by the rules.

Nobody who plays USATT tournaments or ITTF tournaments plays table tennis outdoors in Florida/Texas/Arizona like that. Maybe you did it once or twice, but not that much. This falls into my "conscious strategy to lower friction" category. You are grasping at hypothetical straws and trying to justify a position. The ITTF official was right. Approved rubber is going to be just fine...unless something extreme happens.                             
If it's not ok to play outdoors TT, then make a rule and not just make things up. Ruled don't create themselves. Based on the ITTF bylaws, the AGM has to vote on them and require a 2/3 majority. Rules don't have a spirit. They say what they say and they don't say what they don't say.
There doesn't need to be a rule stating where you can or cannot play.... Antarctica?  Outer Space?  Only thing ITTF can deal with are effects on the rubber to ensure that it is played as authorized.  There doesn't need to be a rule change for that.
You are 100% wrong. As authorized can only mean unmodified as no rubber is as authorized after it has been used. Rubber degrades continuousely and therefore constantly changes. There is no limit to that change set in the rules if it is occurring naturally

Edited by Pushblocker - 08/07/2019 at 9:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 9:18pm
Quote And there ain't nothin' you can do about it. Better start getting yo fat arse on that treadmill and start to lose some pounds because your dang cheatin' rubber gone be tested in a comp very soon. Yeeehawwww freedom. Hell yeah brother.
Luckily it is easy to file lawsuits in this country if they ever decide to enforce a rule that does not exist. BTW, the "as authorized" rule only applies to international competition. Cowards like you and the ITTF BoD are trying to eliminate a playing style as they suck and can't play against it and therefore want everything banned that they don't like, even by circumventing bylaws and rules.

Btw, I don't think I'm fat at all.. For 48 years old, I'm not in bad shape. I'm the guy in black.

This January..



Edited by Pushblocker - 08/07/2019 at 9:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

...
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

There doesn't need to be a rule stating where you can or cannot play.... Antarctica?  Outer Space?  Only thing ITTF can deal with are effects on the rubber to ensure that it is played as authorized.  There doesn't need to be a rule change for that.
You are 100% wrong. As authorized can only mean unmidified as no rubber is as authorized after it has been used. Rubber degrades continuousely and therefore constantly changes. There is no limit to that change set in the rules if it is occurring naturally
According to you, I'm 100% wrong which is fine for you to believe that.  However, my interpretation of as authorized is 100% consistent with what the ITTF considers as authorized.  I even asked for clarification from the ITTF just to be sure so I can at least be confident that my view is consistent with the governing body that controls the sport.  I will simply have to accept that it's not consistent with your view of as authorized.
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At any USATT tournament the friction of LP will never be checked.  So all this arguing is pointless. 99% of the time no one checks your rubber .Players just look to see if you have some type of pips and ask if it's short or long. There are 100x the amount of players illegally boosting  compared to players using  UV or worn  pips and nothing is done about that either. I for one don't care either way . 
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DO NOT APPLY SOME MALTREATMENTS ON YOUR PIMPLES.   KEEP PIMPLES CLEAN OF GREASY, DUSTY RESIDUE.



Quote 2.4.7.1 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to
accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change
the characteristics of the surface.
By now, we have had laboratory trials a lot, many rubbers put in tribological experiments,

    -- Friendship 802 pips-out rubber, just unpacked, proved to have CoF= 0.87
    -- Grass DTecs pips-out, just unpacked, proved CoF = 1.18

By using the BAT TESTER device (or some DIY analogue) you can clearly see if the rubber's traction dropped below the standard value of 0.5 CoF.     
Once your rubber did fail to pass the "sliding block" test, this bespeak most of the pimple's pattern got weared badly, and the rubber does not comply any more with the Rule 2.4.7.1

Just go and have your Friendship 802 rubber tested= properly. No fear, indeed.    Unless you consciously got the rubber treated someway, you should always pass the friction test OK.

Need a friction tester?
This is the thing you ought to obtain first. Yes.


Be happy.

Edited by igorponger - 08/08/2019 at 2:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 5:51am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Quote And there ain't nothin' you can do about it. Better start getting yo fat arse on that treadmill and start to lose some pounds because your dang cheatin' rubber gone be tested in a comp very soon. Yeeehawwww freedom. Hell yeah brother.
Luckily it is easy to file lawsuits in this country if they ever decide to enforce a rule that does not exist. BTW, the "as authorized" rule only applies to international competition. Cowards like you and the ITTF BoD are trying to eliminate a playing style as they suck and can't play against it and therefore want everything banned that they don't like, even by circumventing bylaws and rules.

Btw, I don't think I'm fat at all.. For 48 years old, I'm not in bad shape. I'm the guy in black.

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2. Adoption of ITTF Rules 2.1. The ITTF Laws of Table Tennis and the ITTF Regulations for International Competitions shall apply, unless superseded by an amendment in this document.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 5:57am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

...
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

There doesn't need to be a rule stating where you can or cannot play.... Antarctica?  Outer Space?  Only thing ITTF can deal with are effects on the rubber to ensure that it is played as authorized.  There doesn't need to be a rule change for that.
You are 100% wrong. As authorized can only mean unmidified as no rubber is as authorized after it has been used. Rubber degrades continuousely and therefore constantly changes. There is no limit to that change set in the rules if it is occurring naturally

According to you, I'm 100% wrong which is fine for you to believe that.  However, my interpretation of as authorized is 100% consistent with what the ITTF considers as authorized.  I even asked for clarification from the ITTF just to be sure so I can at least be confident that my view is consistent with the governing body that controls the sport.  I will simply have to accept that it's not consistent with your view of as authorized.

The rules even say... "without treatment". As I said, based on the WORDING (and rules mean what they say and don't mean what they don't say), if indeed "as authorized" would mean with the same exact properties, then all used rubbers would be illegal. OBVIOUSLY, it can't mean that as rubber naturally degrades, making it clear that it means that the rubber can't be modified, chemically, physically etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 6:00am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Quote And there ain't nothin' you can do about it. Better start getting yo fat arse on that treadmill and start to lose some pounds because your dang cheatin' rubber gone be tested in a comp very soon. Yeeehawwww freedom. Hell yeah brother.
Luckily it is easy to file lawsuits in this country if they ever decide to enforce a rule that does not exist. BTW, the "as authorized" rule only applies to international competition. Cowards like you and the ITTF BoD are trying to eliminate a playing style as they suck and can't play against it and therefore want everything banned that they don't like, even by circumventing bylaws and rules.

Btw, I don't think I'm fat at all.. For 48 years old, I'm not in bad shape. I'm the guy in black.

This January..





<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">
2. Adoption of ITTF Rules
2.1. The ITTF Laws of Table Tennis and the ITTF Regulations for International Competitions
shall apply
, unless superseded by an amendment in this document.

I really don't compete in international competition.. It does not say that rules for international competition apply for domestic competition.. It applies when the USATT hosts international competitions. Either way, as I pointed out the only possible interpretation of the rules based on basic logic, it is irrelevant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 6:01am
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

At any USATT tournament the friction of LP will never be checked.  So all this arguing is pointless. 99% of the time no one checks your rubber .Players just look to see if you have some type of pips and ask if it's short or long. There are 100x the amount of players illegally boosting  compared to players using  UV or worn  pips and nothing is done about that either. I for one don't care either way . 
I have no delusions that this would be actually checked for in the US.  I just consider this a fun debate Smile .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 6:06am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Quote And there ain't nothin' you can do about it. Better start getting yo fat arse on that treadmill and start to lose some pounds because your dang cheatin' rubber gone be tested in a comp very soon. Yeeehawwww freedom. Hell yeah brother.
Luckily it is easy to file lawsuits in this country if they ever decide to enforce a rule that does not exist. BTW, the "as authorized" rule only applies to international competition. Cowards like you and the ITTF BoD are trying to eliminate a playing style as they suck and can't play against it and therefore want everything banned that they don't like, even by circumventing bylaws and rules.

Btw, I don't think I'm fat at all.. For 48 years old, I'm not in bad shape. I'm the guy in black.

This January..





<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">
2. Adoption of ITTF Rules
2.1. The ITTF Laws of Table Tennis and the ITTF Regulations for International Competitions
shall apply
, unless superseded by an amendment in this document.

I really don't compete in international competition.. It does not say that rules for international competition apply for domestic competition.. It applies when the USATT hosts international competitions. Either way, as I pointed out the only possible interpretation of the rules based on basic logic, it is irrelevant.
It applies for any USATT sanctioned tournament.  From the same document:
1. Applicability 
1.1. This document, the USATT Rules of Table Tennis, shall apply to competition sanctioned by USATT, except for competition which is required to follow the ITTF rules.


Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 08/08/2019 at 6:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 10:26am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Quote And there ain't nothin' you can do about it. Better start getting yo fat arse on that treadmill and start to lose some pounds because your dang cheatin' rubber gone be tested in a comp very soon. Yeeehawwww freedom. Hell yeah brother.
Luckily it is easy to file lawsuits in this country if they ever decide to enforce a rule that does not exist. BTW, the "as authorized" rule only applies to international competition. Cowards like you and the ITTF BoD are trying to eliminate a playing style as they suck and can't play against it and therefore want everything banned that they don't like, even by circumventing bylaws and rules.

Btw, I don't think I'm fat at all.. For 48 years old, I'm not in bad shape. I'm the guy in black.

This January..





<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">
2. Adoption of ITTF Rules
2.1. The ITTF Laws of Table Tennis and the ITTF Regulations for International Competitions
shall apply
, unless superseded by an amendment in this document.

I really don't compete in international competition.. It does not say that rules for international competition apply for domestic competition.. It applies when the USATT hosts international competitions. Either way, as I pointed out the only possible interpretation of the rules based on basic logic, it is irrelevant.
It applies for any USATT sanctioned tournament.  From the same document:
1. Applicability 
1.1. This document, the USATT Rules of Table Tennis, shall apply to competition sanctioned by USATT, except for competition which is required to follow the ITTF rules.
As I pointed out, it is irrelevant as the rules itself do not make a rubber illegal if it has lost it's friction naturally. It is not there. Neither in the Laws of Table Tennis, nor in the Regulation for International Competition. If anyone in the US tries to enforce the rule that does not exist, lawsuits will be the consequences if someone with a racket that it legal based on the rules is refused to play and sues for damages. The rules say what they say and don't say what they don't say. As I said a million times, no used rubber is exactly like authorized as any scientist will confirm that rubber and most plastics degrade over time and constantly change. There is no limit set forth anywhere in the rules on what percent or to what point a rubber may degrade to still be legal. It is not there. 3/4 majority is needed to pass rules, not an act by the BoD bypassing the rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 11:42am
No used rubber is exactly new (obviously), but that does not mean that it cannot be as authorized.  What is the process of authorization for a rubber?  They check to see that it meets upper/lower limits of certain properties.  A used rubber can still meet those upper/lower limits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

No used rubber is exactly new (obviously), but that does not mean that it cannot be as authorized.  What is the process of authorization for a rubber?  They check to see that it meets upper/lower limits of certain properties.  A used rubber can still meet those upper/lower limits.
please point to the rule that requires the properties remain within a certain range?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

No used rubber is exactly new (obviously), but that does not mean that it cannot be as authorized.  What is the process of authorization for a rubber?  They check to see that it meets upper/lower limits of certain properties.  A used rubber can still meet those upper/lower limits.
please point to the rule that requires the properties remain within a certain range?
There is no explicit rule, but there's one of those pesky regulations that says the racket covering shall be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

No used rubber is exactly new (obviously), but that does not mean that it cannot be as authorized.  What is the process of authorization for a rubber?  They check to see that it meets upper/lower limits of certain properties.  A used rubber can still meet those upper/lower limits.
please point to the rule that requires the properties remain within a certain range?
There is no explicit rule, but there's one of those pesky regulations that says the racket covering shall be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF.
you already conceaded that no used rubber will be as authorized. Let's look at what the rule actually says:

Quote The racket covering shall be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.; in particular, no additives shall be used.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that It clearly refers to treatment/modification and not natural changes to a rubber.


Edited by Pushblocker - 08/08/2019 at 1:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

No used rubber is exactly new (obviously), but that does not mean that it cannot be as authorized.  What is the process of authorization for a rubber?  They check to see that it meets upper/lower limits of certain properties.  A used rubber can still meet those upper/lower limits.
please point to the rule that requires the properties remain within a certain range?
There is no explicit rule, but there's one of those pesky regulations that says the racket covering shall be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF.
you already conceaded that no used rubber will be as authorized. Let's look at what the rule actually says:

Quote The racket covering shall be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.; in particular, no additives shall be used.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that It clearly refers to treatment/modification and not natural changes to a rubber.
I did not concede that no used rubber will be as authorized.  Quite the contrary.  I said "A used rubber can still meet those upper/lower limits" ... referring to the upper/lower limits used in authorization.

That sentence you've quoted does *not* exclude properties from having to meet the min/max specifications ... you know, the ones they use for authorization, the ones they use during racket control, the limit that was referred to in their response to my e-mail.  

You have to ask yourself, why did they even put a friction limit in the T4 Leaflet (the leaflet used for authorization of a rubber).  If it's no concern to them, then why should it even be mentioned?  It clearly is a concern.  Just like it is a concern not to have a high level of VOCs (although VOCs are a much larger concern), which is why there is a 3 ppm maximum limit in the very same document.
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