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Junior Reverse Pendulum Serve

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    Posted: 09/25/2013 at 3:24pm
The junior Jakub Dyjas masters so well the reverse pendulum serve, doing the back swing at the very last moment before striking the ball to maximize the spring effect from the wrist, giving a much bigger range of speed and spin applicable to the ball.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62920

Among people using that serve at the club, I often see the back swing locked in place as they toss the ball; not only it clearly show what serving style is coming (not the spin but the stroke) but it also alters big time the amount of spin that can be put on the ball.

reminder: those 3 are the masters: (edit: of the reverse pendulum serve)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DQeh_2sKyLs&t=47 zhang

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbrmRarOysk maze

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u5_QnsIaZI&feature=player_detailpage&t=43 boll




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 5:00pm
I'm not sure it really matters. Generally on these stroke serves, for mere mortals at least, touch is much more important that absolute speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kickass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 5:09pm
Reverse pendulum serve is just fancy way of doing backhand pendulum. Backhand pendulum is easier with same effectiveness. Even if your serving rubber is on the forehand you can twiddle for the serve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 5:13pm
Hides motion better, and bit easier to adjust for people used to that serving position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suds79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by kickass kickass wrote:

Reverse pendulum serve is just fancy way of doing backhand pendulum. Backhand pendulum is easier with same effectiveness. Even if your serving rubber is on the forehand you can twiddle for the serve.

Yes it's easier but you can see it coming a mile away. Take a look at ZJK's serve in the video above. That's pretty good. That could easily be made into a standard pendulum serve with that motion where I'm sure he would then fake the reverse pendulum swing after contact.

I'm not trying to knock the effectiveness of a backhand pendulum serve. I'm just saying from the forehand side, you certainly can put more deception on it.

Reverse pendulum serve is my good change up serve that catches people off guard from time to time. I might used it couple times in a match. Mine is typically side & top. I find the side & backspin version harder to do as for me being a penholder, the wrist angle is slightly more awkward and I have to hold my paddle out more in front of me to get underneath that ball. In short, I feel it's easier to read.


Edited by suds79 - 09/25/2013 at 5:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toprank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 5:47pm
Interesting videos. I've tried introducing this serve to my repetoire and took me a couple of months to where I was 90+% accurate on my backspin variation. Since I was only working on that variation it's become natural. When I tried the topspin variation...it felt forced and not fluid. I've been getting better at the topspin variation, but that Maze video that you have above, really helps me to understand what I'm trying to do.
I noticed that maze has a quick downward motion loading the wrist before he comes back upward with the topspin upward motion that could add to the deception. I wasn't doing that before or if I was it wasn't that quick. Looking forward to tonight when I get to implement it. Thanks for the videos!
 
Anyone have any suggestions on a topspin tomahawk serve. My current tomahawk is really heavy underspin with sidespin. I'm trying to also develop a topspin tomahawk to add some variations, but I either miss the ball entirely or hit too high. Any ideas how to improve this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kickass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by suds79 suds79 wrote:

Originally posted by kickass kickass wrote:

Reverse pendulum serve is just fancy way of doing backhand pendulum. Backhand pendulum is easier with same effectiveness. Even if your serving rubber is on the forehand you can twiddle for the serve.

Yes it's easier but you can see it coming a mile away. Take a look at ZJK's serve in the video above. That's pretty good. That could easily be made into a standard pendulum serve with that motion where I'm sure he would then fake the reverse pendulum swing after contact.

I'm not trying to knock the effectiveness of a backhand pendulum serve. I'm just saying from the forehand side, you certainly can put more deception on it.

Reverse pendulum serve is my good change up serve that catches people off guard from time to time. I might used it couple times in a match. Mine is typically side & top. I find the side & backspin version harder to do as for me being a penholder, the wrist angle is slightly more awkward and I have to hold my paddle out more in front of me to get underneath that ball. In short, I feel it's easier to read.

Penhold reverse pendulum i can see being easier than backhand (what's the difference between penhold backhand pendulum and penhold reverse pendulum anyway - just the stance, you're serving with the same side (forehand side) rubber).

The deception in the reverse pendulum comes mostly from being able to hide the contact which is illegal. Look at Otcharov's backhand pendulum, he can vary the spin with similar looking motion, and make his opponents dump the return to the net or pop up the ball. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 7:07pm
You're hiding the lead-up to the contact behind the body.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 7:21pm
What i really like in zjk's rps is the way he raises the playing elbow and bends forward the upper body: he can mask better, later what spin he'll put on the ball, adds up energy into the stroke for more tune-up room while increasing the speed of the recovery to ready position.
When i try i get better short serves and easier contact however i have to force myself to do it that way...it's not natural yet.
As a general rule i like rps because as said above it's one more weapon from the same location, adding complexity to the receiver's guessing game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carbon TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 7:43pm
I'll just point out that as far as "masters" of the hook serve are concerned, you're missing possibly the player with the best hook serve, Schlager.


To be honest, Alexei Smirnov deserves a fair mention as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 7:44pm
I was just going to mention Schlager.  The number of variations he can hit from that motion is insane.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carbon TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2013 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I was just going to mention Schlager.  The number of variations he can hit from that motion is insane.

All I know is that when he made Kong Linghui miss 3 of his serves consecutively in the 2003 WTTC => Shocked (including one that went straight up off of Kong's racket and landed on his own side of the table)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2013 at 12:50pm
my apologies for leaving Schlager out in the op; that was dumb. If I have to explain the only reason I did not think about him is that the rps is not dominant in his serving technique unlike in the game of the 3 I mentioned.
Of course I do think all the fh serves Schlager can do from his bh corner put him well above the 3 I listed in terms of serving mastery, as in "guess what's coming bud". His 2003 title was very much based on superior serving as carbontt underlined.
ps: I edited the op to add "(edit: of the reverse pendulum serve).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2013 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Carbon TT Carbon TT wrote:



Awesome. Thanks for sharing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2013 at 7:16pm
Not sure modeling one's game after people like Schlager (or LGL) who are obviously very naturally talented servers is the best idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2013 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Not sure modeling one's game after people like Schlager (or LGL) who are obviously very naturally talented servers is the best idea.
yes please don't model yourselves on World Champions, work on your dwelltime (whatever that means to 99% of Table tennis players in a game)

 now where is that brickwall
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2013 at 7:41pm
Why don't the other world champ aspirants like just serve like Schlager/LGL? How can they be so stupid?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2013 at 12:02am
The reverse pendulum serve is starting to be well known; more and more people are not making any mistake against mine even though I am getting better at it. That's why I do not use it for more than 20% of my serves; sometimes if the 1st topspin one comes back high I go for a 2nd one with backspin, hoping the other player will cover the ball more.

If I use it too much I am digging my own grave.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2013 at 1:47am
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Why don't the other world champ aspirants like just serve like Schlager/LGL? How can they be so stupid?
yes people can model on who they want, a few miilion players copy of Ma Long and what.. nothing, to me getting some ides of any good player is what any asspiring talet should be doing

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2013 at 2:08am
No, I literary mean why didn't people who played against LGL/Schlager just copy their serve game. They are after all in a much better position to do so than anyone else you might be thinking of. With such an advantage equaled and negated, surely they could then easily win based on the superiority of their other skills.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2013 at 9:42am
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

No, I literary mean why didn't people who played against LGL/Schlager just copy their serve game. They are after all in a much better position to do so than anyone else you might be thinking of. With such an advantage equaled and negated, surely they could then easily win based on the superiority of their other skills.

It is not so easy to copy LGL/Schlager, just as it is not easy to copy ZJK's BH over-the-table loop or WLQ's FH.  Sure everyone copies to a certain extent  but it is almost impossible to attain the quality (which is what's important at the highest level) that these players have achieved. Wang Hao was using the LGL serve back in 2008 but ditched it shortly after as the serve didn't really suit him (the spin on the opponent's receive caused by the very heavy service spin made it extra hard for him to initiate consistent high quality attacks on the 3rd ball). Not only must you serve really well, but you must be able to read the spin from your opponent's receive perfectly. Sometimes a simpler serve is better as you are less likely to be confused by the opponent's receive (less variation for yourself) and you can attack the 3rd ball easier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2013 at 2:45pm
Exactly my point. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2013 at 3:13pm
Aha... you all got trapped. But the clock is ticking...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2013 at 2:15am
There are lots of ways to have a good serve. It is not necessarily how many you have (although it can be). . It is always how deceptive they are. And there are lots of things to mess with. Schlager has many serves and variations. Ma Lin not so many. It is not always the amount of spin either. It just needs to be very hard to tell how much. Ma Lin approach reduces the number of third ball variations he has to face like blah ness says. . But his spin/no spin serves from the same motion were so good and so hard to read that some days he could annihilate top 30 in the world people just wit that. Schlager can do so many things it sometimes seems like he is creating new stuff on the spot. Having a good serve makes life easier. The more common something is the harder it becomes to trick people with it. I've tried to develop lots of serves because usually at least one of them can hurt an opponent and with different people it is not always the same one. Sometimes I hose myself by not being prepared for the most likely third ball. I have been trying to be mindful of that   For sure the reverse pendulum ones don't work so well these days. That sucks. It took me a really long time to develop confidence in them   But everybody sees it all the time now. Serving is like an arms race. . Lately I have spent a lot of time (many hours) on vert long serves that land almost on white line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2013 at 3:14am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There are lots of ways to have a good serve. It is not necessarily how many you have (although it can be). . It is always how deceptive they are. And there are lots of things to mess with. Schlager has many serves and variations. Ma Lin not so many. It is not always the amount of spin either. It just needs to be very hard to tell how much. Ma Lin approach reduces the number of third ball variations he has to face like blah ness says. . But his spin/no spin serves from the same motion were so good and so hard to read that some days he could annihilate top 30 in the world people just wit that. Schlager can do so many things it sometimes seems like he is creating new stuff on the spot. Having a good serve makes life easier. The more common something is the harder it becomes to trick people with it. I've tried to develop lots of serves because usually at least one of them can hurt an opponent and with different people it is not always the same one. Sometimes I hose myself by not being prepared for the most likely third ball. I have been trying to be mindful of that   For sure the reverse pendulum ones don't work so well these days. That sucks. It took me a really long time to develop confidence in them   But everybody sees it all the time now. Serving is like an arms race. . Lately I have spent a lot of time (many hours) on vert long serves that land almost on white line.
I am glad I am not alone in that case. I was happy for a while to have all those free points though it was like candy after practice in my basement. It lasted about a couple years; now it is all about masking what's on the ball so the consistency goes down or it is paradoxically too obvious; I need more practice at home. I seem to get nicer results with shorter topspin ones to their bh (right handed) because I make them rush into a flick that goes out or that I can block to their fh if they cover it well; the short one to their fh is harder to do (zjk's in the video above is so slick!) and I serve it too high under pressure even if at home it's ok.
The best serve that I call my bread and butter even against people much higher than me is still the fast slight underspin that goes in their elbow (middle line) or their bh (diagonal) and that I try to mask as a fast dead or topspin ball; it is incredible the number of good players who return it fast in the net because they read a dead ball when there is a bit of backspin. The closest I got to describe it in a video is there; ok it's wh twiddling but you get the idea of the equivalent with a sh sweddish service grip; it goes well in conjunction with the super short dead ball to their fh right behind the net close to the sideline, especially if the toss and back swing is the same for both so they don't get ready for a big loop too much in advance.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2013 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

now it is all about masking what's on the ball so the consistency goes down or it is paradoxically too obvious;
The best serve that I call my bread and butter even against people much higher than me is still the fast slight underspin that goes in their elbow (middle line) or their bh (diagonal) and that I try to mask as a fast dead or topspin ball;
 
I think it was always about masking, and always will be.  Before I think the reverse pendulum worked because people just weren't used to seeing the motion, so it was kind of masked just by it's unfamiliarity,  but now people are completely accustomed to it, so the masking you need is the same as for regular pendulum ones -- trajectory, timing, subtly varying where on the racket it hits, etc.
 
Your bread and butter these days is also my bread and butter serve!LOL  I am using a 'hook' motion with my version.  I spent about a year working on all kinds of variations of this one after watching Chinese women like Liu Shiwen and deciding there must be a lot more to what they are doing then meets the idea.  Turns out there is.
 
 
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