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Multi Ball Training: Pros and Cons |
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Speedplay 
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 Posted: 09/11/2011 at 6:56pm |
In this exsample, you are completely ignoring the benefits of multiball, such as getting to play more strokes on alimited time then you would do if you played actual matches. So, give the options again, but if you pick to drive the real care, then 50% of your practice time will be spent doing other things then driving, such as checking out the tires, fuel up the car and stuff like that. Cause, most people only get to practice for a limited time and if the play matches, a lot of the time is spent picking up the ball. Edited by Speedplay - 09/11/2011 at 6:57pm |
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Rack
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Posted: 09/11/2011 at 7:01pm |
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Sure I would still pick the real scenario because thats what you'll see. In a real game you'll have to stop and pick up balls and that will disrupt your rhythm. In a real race, you have to pay attention to your tires, your gas level, oil levels, brakes, you can't go 100% the whole time. You don't get the same ball in succession over and over again which allows you to get in a rhythm. People will aim to ruin your rhythm using all kinds of ways... taking their time walking around, toweling off, bouncing the ball, CHO-ing, etc etc. That way, when people do try to pull these things on you, it won't bother you at all because you've seen it and you know how to deal with it. You don't get that in multiball. You get to experience exactly what you will see instead of doing the same thing again and again which is unrealistic. Nothing beats the real thing. And when its time to face the real thing... you're no longer feeling weird in a new environment. Your mind is 100% focused.
As I said earlier... you can do your endless strokes all you want with your multiball in early levels... but when the conditions of that ball change, which will allow you to adapt better? The knowledge you got from the multiball but never seeing this new type of ball, or actually having that experience of having played against such a type of ball for hours... even if its half the time? Would you have rather raced on the actual track for half the time or only seen it in a simulator for double the time? A good example here would be many comments i've seen throughout the years about people having problems playing against people with pre-made setups but have no problems playing against normal setups because thats what they see everyday. This is due to the overwhelming change of the type of ball you get where your normal training won't work. Chances are you won't see a 2000 player with a premade setup but you will see it in the lower levels. Which would help you more in this scenario... the experience of having played against those type of people, or a coaches multiball? Like I said I've never seen a coach multiball with a premade to train for that.
Now as the player gets more advanced, the less random stuff you'll see in terms of normal strokes. When you do a bad push, you know the probability is high the higher levels will punish you with a drive, loop, smash. This is when mutilball makes ton of sense. However in lower levels, are you going to think of all random scenarios to train? You give someone a bad push, you have no clue if they're going to loop you. Some push it back short, some put random spin on it, some lob it back to you. Most of them know they can't loop consistently so they do whatever it takes to make you error. When I was beginning back in the day, thats exactly how I beat people who multiballed alot. I knew their training and muscle memory told them to do certain things so I did the complete opposite to throw them off. Then after they lost, you can tell by the look on their face which said "i've had training for so long, how did I lose to this." If you're a smart player... you know NOT to give them the scenario they trained for or they murder you. For example, if you play a blocker, you know not to recklessly loop the same pace at them. You give them stuff that will throw them off like varying the pace, varying spin, varying power of the loops so it's not like their training where they get into a rhythm blocking the same ball. You challenge them to come in and go out or left and right with different paces doing it on the move... any scenario you think they would not have trained and you'll usually win if you can consistently do it. Much like the advantage of long pips players at lower levels... they win because people don't see it alot and have no clue how to play against it. However, would it still throw you off if you had actual practice time against it and you've seen someone employ those strategies against you?
So again, I still think at lower levels for the average player, coached/supervised playing experience is of greater importance than multiball drills unless you're behind some form of world class program like the Chinese TT schools and your goal is to become a pro. Keep in mind, you can still play practice points with a tub of balls and not waste time picking up balls! Edited by Rack - 09/11/2011 at 8:26pm |
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yogi_bear
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 12:44am |
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 1:48am |
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Learning multiball does not equate to learning basics. You can learn basics without extensive multiball training. I can learn and teach basics with 1 ball if I wanted to and I have done so. And I'm not saying multiball is useless (i've repeated this point many many times)... I'm saying they don't benefit the player in the lower levels as much as actual match play experience.You say yourself that doing something over and over again is beneficial which I agree with. However you fail to realize my point of... if you do something over and over again... and you don't see any of your opponents giving you what you trained, does that training benefit you more than actually playing against what you will see? This equates to the race car comparison which you failed to see. If you practice in a simulator, does it benefit you more than actual practice on the real track? Or another comparison, would you practice on a oval track knowing you're going to race a road course?
Like I said, I've seen plenty of players do heavy multiball from the start and watch them proceed to lose the majority of games they play because the people they play don't give them ANYTHING similar to their training. These people were nothing but multiballed for 3 solid years and I watched as a totally new person walk in with a premade and beat them consistently by pushing and just generally keeping the ball on the table. If you were the student who trained for 3 years... what would you think?
If you swapped out the multiball and subbed in match play experience, they would win AND be happy from their coaching. Then you could start doing multiball when the opponents they play can actually give them the stuff they train in multiball. I'm not saying you should never do multiball... I'm saying theres a better time for it.
And I find it kind of funny (and pretty insulting which was uncalled for because I've been nothing but civil in this discussion) that you assume I have no experience with good multiball training. I was multiball trained for almost 2 years when I was starting by a 2400 level coach. Same club Ethan Chua and them train at. I know from first hand experience what too much multi-ball training can do to you which is when I realized that logically, this isn't the best way to learn for alot of people who have no intention of being hardcore tourney players (which is the majority of people/most people just play in their own little friends groups)... Sure it may work for some people, but the majority of people I saw could play against higher level players because they gave them balls the training did but did horrible vs lower level players so they were stuck in the lower levels for a while until they got enough match play experience to get out of there. They would have progressed much faster if they learned how to play against the "slower, weirder" styles then progressed to people who play with more "general" styles which multiball is excellent training for. It makes no sense to train someone to defeat higher level players (which multiball is fantastic for) while ignoring the ways lower level players play. Sure you could defeat a 1700 level player, but if you in turn lose the next game to 1200-1500 players... are you truly that skilled?
The error of your strokes can be corrected in the same way as it can in multiball. The only difference is you will experience it in the actual environment. If something needs to be corrected, you can run that game scenario over and over in actual game context. Or the coach can keep giving you that context within a point to have you practice it. Multiball has similarities to training on a robot. It's not as artificial but it's still artificial. All coaches I've met are against robot training in the lower levels. If anything they encourage you to join tournies as soon as possible to get as much match play as soon as possible or challenge every single person in the club non stop. Of course this is mostly for the typical amateur player... the players who want to become pro's and can start from scratch, they'll use the China training method of drilling basics into them before letting them extensively play games. You train them depending on their end goals.... most amateur players won't ever need multiball training! All they want to accomplish is to be decently competitive in terms of winning and to enjoy the game. Not all players want to be multiballed to utter hell when none of the people they play against can play at that level!
As for mental training, if you've multiballed for years and you lose to someone with no training... is that mentally encouraging to the player? Players have told me it's pretty demoralizing for them. I've seen multiple cases of this in many different students with different coaches. When I talk to them... the first thing they say to me is... "I've been coached for X amount of years... I shouldn't have lost to that." The first thing I ask them is... "have you ever trained against what your opponent used against you" and "is what you saw anything like what you've been training" 90% of the time the answer is No. That is not generalization as you claim... it's straight feedback from various student players I've met throughout the years. If you can't believe straight feedback from multiple students and what they say would have helped them more in the lower levels, I don't know how else I could explain it to you.
Try to take yourself out of the context of being a "coach" for high levels who uses typical practices of other coaches and put yourself in the context of the "student" and what their goals are. As I said in the other thread with the father and his son, you train someone based on their end goals/opponents, mentality, ability, and how they learn the best.
You don't "China" train everyone you see. (Very similar to what APW has said in the past). Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 3:11am |
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yogi_bear
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:10am |
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"Learning multiball does not equate to learning basics. You can learn basics without extensive multiball training. I can learn and teach basics with 1 ball if I wanted to and I have done so.And I'm not saying multiball is useless (i've repeated this point many many times)... I'm saying they don't benefit the player in the lower levels as much as actual match play experience. "
really and where did you get this information? the purpose of the multiple for beginners is to introduce them to the right strokes and basics at the most effecient way and less time.. can you pls give me a source that says multiball is not good for beginners? i will not include my experiences as a coach teaching kids, high schools students, college varsities and even adult people from beginners to advanced players because people will just say im just bragging with no proof.. but here is an example pf a concrete proof that multiball is essential to a beginner player and let me quote: multiball are many, including, to: Develop individual strokes Increase the quality of training Increase the intensity of training Work on specific match situations Increase speed/agility Increase endurance Multiball is extremely important for beginners forming their basic techniques with balls being fed to a set position at a slow rate. Parents with reasonable hand-eye co-ordination can be taught to give multiball while waiting for their children at coaching. Multiball is also crucial at the elite level to increase the intensity and quality of training and for specific match situations. How to feed multiball The majority of multiball exercises are performed with a chair or table of table height besides the net, or with a container on the table next to the net, with a container of several hundred balls. The container should be less than net height. 2-6 balls are picked up with the non-playing hand with one ball at a time being thrown backwards at an angle onto the table and half-volleyed over the net to the appropriate position. Remember to watch the player at all times, not the balls." Page 236 ITTF Level 1 Coaching Manual I don't have to explain that do I? "You say yourself that doing something over and over again is beneficial which I agree with. However you fail to realize my point of... if you do something over and over again... and you don't see any of your opponents giving you what you trained, does that training benefit you more than actually playing against what you will see? This equates to the race car comparison which you failed to see. If you practice in a simulator, does it benefit you more than actual practice on the real track? Or another comparison, would you practice on a oval track knowing you're going to race a road course? " you still failed to see that multiball can adjust to those situations. if you have practiced multiball for years and lose to a low level player do not blame the system blame the coach. speaking of the training, does your multiball session is a repetition of the same strokes with no added difficulty? then there is something wrong with the coach! "Like I said, I've seen plenty of players do heavy multiball from the start and watch them proceed to lose the majority of games they play because the people they play don't give them ANYTHING similar to their training. These people were nothing but multiballed for 3 solid years and I watched as a totally new person walk in with a premade and beat them consistently by pushing and just generally keeping the ball on the table. If you were the student who trained for 3 years... what would you think? " multiballing for 3 yrs is no good. as what i have said the correct training is doing multiballs, teaching table drills and doing match plays. again do not blame the system it comes down to the coach how he can teach multiballs. have you asked those provincial chinese coaches if they think multiball is not good for beginners? i'd bet my life they will tell you you are wrong. "If you swapped out the multiball and subbed in match play experience, they would win AND be happy from their coaching. Then you could start doing multiball when the opponents they play can actually give them the stuff they train in multiball. I'm not saying you should never do multiball... I'm saying theres a better time for it." if you are familiar with the Swedish model for training and Chinese Model, you would see that multiballs are part of the training then goes the table drills and match plays. You will say, "not everyone are training to be pros". Wrong, those models are applicable for all levels from beginner to pros. "And I find it kind of funny (and pretty insulting which was uncalled for because I've been nothing but civil in this discussion) that you assume I have no experience with good multiball training. I was multiball trained for almost 2 years when I was starting by a 2400 level coach. Same club Ethan Chua and them train at. I know from first hand experience what too much multi-ball training can do to you which is when I realized that logically, this isn't the best way to learn for alot of people who have no intention of being hardcore tourney players (which is the majority of people/most people just play in their own little friends groups)... Sure it may work for some people, but the majority of people I saw could play against higher level players because they gave them balls the training did but did horrible vs lower level players so they were stuck in the lower levels for a while until they got enough match play experience to get out of there. They would have progressed much faster if they learned how to play against the "slower, weirder" styles then progressed to people who play with more "general" styles which multiball is excellent training for. It makes no sense to train someone to defeat higher level players (which multiball is fantastic for) while ignoring the ways lower level players play. Sure you could defeat a 1700 level player, but if you in turn lose the next game to 1200-1500 players... are you truly that skilled?" ok sources sources. do you know of Mr. Richard McAfee??? for over 30 years he has the coaching experience to be an authority in table tennis. He has written a book on "Table Tennis: Steps to Success". He is one of the national coaches in the states and one of the most respected also. By the way, he was the one who conducted our ITTF Level 1 Coaching Seminar which I have udergone and also the Level 1 ITTF Course Conductor's Course for Level 1 Coaches which I passed. Why is it that he emphasizes the use of multiball in teaching beginners coupled with table drills and matchplays in a single session? You said you have the experience hmmm, his experience is over 30 years who would be a more credible source than just the 2 of us arguing about our experiences? let me also use the example of my mentor. who not only taught me to play but also taught me how to coach. if you want to know his level and compare it to the one who multiballed you for 2 years. He reached top 16 of the Asian Cup a decade ago. He is a current national coach in my country. he teaches children also for free starting with level 0 kids. A kind of training that I have undergone because he taught me together with those 10 yr old kids. i was the only adult there. he told me, if you want to learn table tennis, learn the basics first thru multiball drills and i did. it was hard, frustrating sometimes but worth it. about the china training this and that. let me ask you what is your concept of training in china? you are quick to assume that the training in clubs in china would be all going for pro. my coach went there twice to train in this club with 70 tables. he would see kinds from all levels. some of them are trainiing for provincial players, others are just members of the club that wanted to train and play after school. why is it that they teach multiball to kids even at beginner levels? kids are allowed to play match plays there by the way even if they train. how bout the foreigners who train in china and im not talking about the pros. im talking about tourists. why is it that part of their training camp multiballs are given as part of the training in ALL levels? you would say its only in china, nope. clubs in europe that teaches kids does that also? and why not "china training or swedish training" your player? it is a proven and effective way of training why not? |
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yogi_bear
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:11am |
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if you doubt my book source i can give you a page of the ITTF Coaching Manual. It is a standard that I choose to follow since it is a proven guide. Its in pdf form
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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:31am |
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You're following a manual to coach? I mean really? Coaches I know don't follow manuals. They adapt to the people they coach which is the correct way to coach. They heed to goals of that individual instead of pressing what a manual tells them. You're going to discount feedback that students gave to follow a manual? What are you going to do if the student tells you they don't like multiballing... are you going to show them your ITTF Coaches Manual and say... BUT YOU HAVE TO! THE MANUAL SAYS SO! Books and recognized people in the world also said the Earth was flat... does that make it correct?
So what if I went up to you for coaching and told you I had no intention of playing other people other than my friends. You would really press multiballing to me instead of asking... how do your friends play? So for any other student to learn something, we have to follow some guide telling us what to do? Thats quite 1 dimensional coaching.
You still don't understand that what works for some people doesn't work for other people. You seem to really want to follow the "established" ways and discount anything that doesn't fit it.
Tell me this since you're citing training programs in China and Europe... do you think the average US club player who isn't planning to be a serious tournament player would spend the money, effort, and time to travel to another country to train for TT? How many average US players have you met that went that far who weren't aiming to be high level tournament players?
As a coach you're suppose to follow what your customer/student wants... not follow a guide telling you what to do. Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 4:51am |
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Speedplay
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:51am |
If all you want to do is play with your friends, then why hire a coach? To me, hiring a coach shows some signs of ambition and then it's for the coach to help the student to become as good as possible. Multiball, when used correctly, is an excellent way of training. You claim that it don't reflect the real game, which is partly true, but when you are at the table, getting ready to go for that fh loop, which would you rather have, 200 fh's hit in matches, or 2000 fh's hit with multiball? The problem with only playing matches is that in a match, the focus is on winning, while multiball and other drills focus on improving. If you play to win, play the high percentage shots and wait for the opponent to make a mistake, but when you practice, give your self more shots to work with, as you can afford to miss a lot of shots while learning. |
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:56am |
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People hire coaches for various reasons... some to fix strokes... some for tips to beat certain people... some to hit around with... some actually to play a match with the coach because they feel it'll be challenging...some for long term training... etc etc. AND... not alot of people will stay with 1 coach for multiple sessions. How would you teach a student if they could only afford 2 lessons with you... would you press multiball to them? Would you preach multiballing knowing that no one else but you could feed them (how many low level players you know can feed multiball good or who own a tub of balls with a enclosed location to multiball in?)? OR would you find out what their goal was and ADAPT... teach them something they could take with them to practice with after they exhaust their budget? My reason for getting my first lesson was solely to beat one person I had trouble with because he was so unorthodox. I only planned to get 1 lesson. Lets say you were my coach... would you have said... lets do multiball scenarios when you know nothing of the opponent I wanted to face and what made him unorthodox? How could you simulate his motions and movement with multiball?
The guide he states assumes that you'll be with that student long term. Is your ITTF manual a realistic scenario for a amateur player lookin for just a few lessons a year? How many people do you know who constantly gets lessons and can afford it? 30-100 bucks an hour depending on the coach is quite expensive to many people. Would you still press multiball if you had 1 lesson only? Don't know about you but I've met plenty of people who only afford like 1-2 lessons a year. Would you spend that hour multiballing them to hell or would you fix the most critical parts of their current game in relation to their current opponents to help them win?
Yogi states alot of books and sources... but he doesn't understand the situation/duration in which people get coaching. If you never ask their goal and just follow some guide, thats not good coaching. Very 1 dimensional which does not bend to different circumstances. I don't care how many years experience you or your sources have... if you don't find out what your student/customer wants and just press your agenda, you ARE NOT doing your job. Look already what happened when I flat out told him it was direct feedback from actual students of coaches I've met... he ignores it and presses his agenda of multiball.
I knew several people who hired coaches just to simply have someone to hit with because they didn't like playing random people. 40 dollars to have someone hit around with was like a drop in the ocean for him. Would you press multiball to these people if thats not their goal? Would you even know their goal? It's the coaches job to figure out the goal of the individual... NOT follow some guide or book. NOT everyone has the same agenda and a coach assuming their agenda is just flat out wrong.
As for which one I would pick, if I were playing the person I was practicing against, I would take the 200 against the actual person over the 2000 some foreign person was feeding. You can learn a ton about an opponent from 200 shots. Heck you can learn a ton about an opponent from the 2 minute warmup. But who knows... other people might pick the 2000. This perfectly supports what I was saying earlier about not everyone learning the same. If you only give them 1 choice (the multiball) and you never figure out what would benefit them more.... would you be a good coach?
In a match the focus is always winning? I know tons of people who play practice matches just to improve where they don't care if they win or not. It's what tons of coaches advocate also... to play to practice against REAL opponents. Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 5:49am |
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yogi_bear
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 5:49am |
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tomas.gt
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 5:51am |
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Too many words in this thread ;)
The good thing about MBT is the intensity.
I prefer regular training, because almost every ball is unique and I have to read it and adapt to it.
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:01am |
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" * i would press it on you because i know it is the right thing to do. i will not be the 1 dimensional coach rather you would be the narrow minded student. i coach not because i follow my students wants but i see to it they learn what they need to learn by doing multiball in a session plus other things. " This is exactly why your method is bad. You have no clue what my intentions are for hiring you to coach. You never asked what my goal was... you don't even know why i went to you. Instead you ignored everything on pressed your own agenda. You only follow established and standard methods from your book which is narrow minded.What you basically told your student is "its your way or the highway". Do it like this or get out...
What kinda coach is that?
You also say money isn't an issue... I don't know about you but coaches cost money here in the US. It surely isn't cheap either. If I went to you for advice for a certain issue.. and you went on rambling about your own little agenda... I'm sorry but you're a bad coach cause you don't take into account the feedback of students.
You say in your last paragraph, "i see to it that what my students needs are met not on what they want!" Really? So as you coach... you can care less about what they want? How can you meet their needs when you don't have a clue what their needs are?
"if you are not following a widely accepted standard and proven then you lack somethign as a coach."
This sentence is just... wow... That means you allow 0 innovation and adaptation in the way you teach. Let me give you a good example that will discount you...
The reverse penhold backhand or A+B style was not a widely accepted technique in China and was not taught for a long time. The first coach and players who invented it surely went against "widely accepted standards" vs the one sided penhold. In your standards... these people would be "lacking as a coach" when they invented something that pretty much revolutionized the modern Penhold Grip.
That means you just claimed LGL and his coaches are "lacking." Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 6:06am |
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yogi_bear
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:04am |
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People hire coaches for various reasons... some to fix strokes... some for tips to beat certain people... some to hit around with... some actually to play a match with the coach because they feel it'll be challenging...some for long term training... etc etc. AND... not alot of people will stay with 1 coach for multiple sessions. How would you teach a student if they could only afford 2 lessons with you... would you press multiball to them? Would you preach multiballing knowing that no one else but you could feed them (how many low level players you know can feed multiball good or who own a tub of balls with a enclosed location to multiball in?)? OR would you find out what their goal was and ADAPT... teach them something they could take with them to practice with after they exhaust their budget?
*by the way i teach a lot of students for free but going back on the topic yes i would see to it they do multiballs to see what weaknesses they have and what areas they need to improve on. also you are limiting my topic to just multiballs , i said i couple it with table drills and match plays. My reason for getting my first lesson was solely to beat one person I had trouble with because he was so unorthodox. I only planned to get 1 lesson. Lets say you were my coach... would you have said... lets do multiball scenarios when you know nothing of the opponent I wanted to face and what made him unorthodox? *would it cost me too much if i ask you how he plays since you are planning to beat him im sure you know what are his common strokes and things he does and then apply it starting on the things with a multiball session? then with table drills and match plays? The guide he states assumes that you'll be with that student long term. Is your ITTF manual a realistic scenario for a amateur player lookin for just a few lessons a year? How many people do you know who constantly gets lessons and can afford it? 30-100 bucks an hour depending on the coach is quite expensive to many people. Would you still press multiball if you had 1 lesson only? Don't know about you but I've met plenty of people who only afford like 1-2 lessons a year. Would you spend that hour multiballing them to hell or would you fix the most critical parts of their current game in relation to their current opponents to help them win? the ittf manual is designed for people on the world who are so poor and havent even seen a racket or afford one. this only means you are clueless about the outreach programs used by the ITTF in order to reach for poor countries. coaching like in other sports costs a thing! deal with it life is not fair. in the first place we are talking about coaching here, so if you want a coach you need to pay! I knew several people who hired coaches just to simply have someone to hit with because they didn't like playing random people. 40 dollars to have someone hit around with was like a drop in the ocean for him. Would you press multiball to these people if thats not their goal? Would you even know their goal? It's the coaches job to figure out the goal of the individual... NOT follow some guide or book. NOT everyone has the same agenda and a coach assuming their agenda is just flat out wrong. * how do you know this? have read the book? if you have read the book you wouldnt even be saying these things. talking about goal setting, yes it is taught by the book. As for which one I would pick, if I were playing the person I was practicing against, I would take the 200 against the actual person over the 2000 some foreign person was feeding. You can learn a ton about an opponent from 200 shots. Heck you can learn a ton about an opponent from the 2 minute warmup. But who knows... other people might pick the 2000. This perfectly supports what I was saying earlier about not everyone learning the same. If you only give them 1 choice (the multiball) and you never figure out what would benefit them more.... would you be a good coach? *i never said multiballing is good alone. i said it needs to be coupled with table drills and matchplays why dont you get that? by the way even if you record teh match play of that opponent, you wont learn that much. In a match the focus is always winning? I know tons of people who play practice matches just to improve where they don't care if they win or not. It's what tons of coaches advocate also... to play to practice against REAL opponents. *the general assumption again, your sources pls other than just generalizing? and yes they want to improve. that is wht if you have the CHANCE to go to china no matter what level you are multiballing is part of the training plus the matches and table drills! |
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yogi_bear
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:16am |
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"This is exactly why your method is bad. You have no clue what my intentions are for hiring you to coach. You never asked what my goal was... you don't even know why i went to you. Instead you ignored everything on pressed your own agenda. You only follow established and standard methods from your book which is narrow minded. "
goals are met due to the methods used! and who told you that i do not ask my students about their goals? not only i ask about their goals i also add things that they need to learn and reach! so a book that is widely used and is considered a good standard because it was written by people who have lots of experiences in coaching is being narrow minded? "if you are not following a widely accepted standard and proven then you lack somethign as a coach." This sentence is just... wow... That means you allow 0 innovation and adaptation in the way you teach. Let me give you a good example that will discount you... The reverse penhold backhand or A+B style was not a widely accepted technique in China and was not taught for a long time. The first coach and players who invented it surely went against "widely accepted standards" vs the one sided penhold. In your standards... these people would be "lacking as a coach" when they invented something that pretty much revolutionized the modern Penhold Grip. *i innovate according to what i see my student realy needs not on what they want! the standards now are to use multiball drills! you are wayy wayy out of the topic! if the standards are widely used by good tabel tennis countries WHY NOT FOLLOW THEM????? that is the point here! until additional rules are made to change the game i dont think there are other standards you need to follow. *according to coaches i have talked with liu gouliang imposes on what he wants his players to learn because he knows he needs them. we can go back again to my sources but then again you will ignore them because it trashes your so called experiences. lets just go to the bottom line then. since you are speaking about your experiences, the experience of a US national coach like mr maafee should not be treated as effective because he has been teaching for 30 yrs about table tennis and he know hwta are the most effective ways to teach? compared to the little experience you have and i dont think you even coached!
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:19am |
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" i coach not because i follow my students wants but i see to it they learn what they need to learn by doing multiball in a session plus other things. "
"and who told you that i do not ask my students about their goals?"
You told me this using the first phrase. You don't care what your student wants... only what you feel they need.
And how am I giving Assumptions?
I'm giving you real scenarios of people I knew who actually sought coaching and their goals and testing you to see how you as a coach would handle the situation. All you're saying... did you read the book? What about the book? What are your sources? This is a good example how 1 dimensional the book makes you. You also ask how would I know their goals... well guess what... THEY TOLD ME! I don't have to read a book to ask someone... what are your goals? Does your book cover asking people? Clearly it doesn't because you don't care what their agenda is per your own words... only what you feel the need.
I told you lessons are expensive here in the US... then you went on about poor people and trying to side step the money issue saying you teach for free. Unfortunately coaches aren't free in the US and other parts of the world... they're quite expensive. And cost is a HUGE factor in coaching as well as how many lessons you buy. Most people I know only buy 1-2 if you're lucky within a span of months.
*would it cost me too much if i ask you how he plays since you are planning to beat him im sure you know what are his common strokes and things he does and then apply it starting on the things with a multiball session? then with table drills and match plays?
You're going to multiball me based on word of mouth descriptions? Thats the high quality coaching your ITTF book advocates? You would have no clue how to multiball a style of a person based on word of mouth. What if I told you his movements threw me off... how would you multiball that without seeing his movements? How would you know where he places the ball, how spinny they are, how powerful they are? How would you multiball any of it without observing the player I wanted to beat with me playing him? Thats the ONLY way for you to truly identify all the different areas and if multiball is suitable or not.
This is a good scenario of where your coaching method makes no sense per the needs and goal of the student. Per what you just said... you would just "guess" to your best of your ability based on what I said. You say your multiball can be a accurate simulation... How accurate do you think you could make your simulation if you have never seen this person I wanted to beat playing me?
If i said his shots were spinny... how do you know my ranges for what I feel is "spinny"? Would you waste 5 minutes of lesson time feeding me different balls and getting my opinion? Same for all the other variables you would have to figureout to give me a accurate simulation. You could spend the whole lesson alotted time just trying to figure out what my word of mouth description means. And what if I told you I had no clue why I do so bad against him (which is what some people say when they are totally baffled), would you just make up some random multiball plan and hope it helps me against him? Thats a very "vague" way to train and I don't think any students I know would pay $40 an hour for that. So again I say...
You say your multiball can be a accurate simulation... How accurate do you think you could make your simulation if you have never seen this person I wanted to beat playing me? How accurate can it be if you never played the person yourself to actually feel the types of balls he puts out. We all know watching isn't a accurate barometer. Did the ITTF book forget to mention this particular scenario? or did it assume I would be your student for more than 1 session? Take into account that alot of people base if they want to come back for more lessons per how you handle the first lesson and you just missed a ton of IMPORTANT points you needed to know to give your multiball simulation. That doesn't give the student alot of confidence in the simulation you're going to provide.
Now heres my point that I've been trying to make to you the ENTIRE time... in a scenario like this, what if you were able to actually watch me play him and correct me as I was playing him? Would that not be better than your simulation? Which would help me more if I only bought 1 lesson from you? The real thing + the tips and correction you can provide.... or your simulation which you wouldn't have a clue and would be based on guesses and assumptions? Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 7:50am |
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:25am |
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So just because someone has 30 years experience means they are automatically correct for everyone? Is there a law that says people can't question them?
Just because a book was written... means its automatically correct and can't be deviated from?
Dam thats news to me. You must still believe the world is flat then since it was written in books. I think it didn't change until someone questioned it.
*i innovate according to what i see my student realy needs not on what they want! the standards now are to use multiball drills! you are wayy wayy out of the topic! if the standards are widely used by good tabel tennis countries WHY NOT FOLLOW THEM????? that is the point here! until additional rules are made to change the game i dont think there are other standards you need to follow.
Why is it off topic? I used your very own quote and gave you an example of something that was "against standards" and is now mainstream only after someone went against standards. If we used your method, then the RPB shouldn't have been used because 1 sided penhold was the "accepted standard" for ages. You just don't like it cause its against what you said.
"lets just go to the bottom line then. since you are speaking about your experiences, the experience of a US national coach like mr maafee should not be treated as effective because he has been teaching for 30 yrs about table tennis and he know hwta are the most effective ways to teach? compared to the little experience you have and i dont think you even coached!"
When have I said that his experience is not treated as effective? When have I said any training in China or Europe was wrong or evil. If anything I respect the way they train and I always have. I've said all along... it may work for some people... but not others. Theres situations where it calls for that training, and situations where other training would be better towards the student depending on their goals. I clearly know people who it didn't work it and nothing you say or cite can discount them. I clearly told you there are some situations where it's not ideal for people in a calm and civil fashion. You're just choosing to ignore it because I don't agree with you or your sources 100%. I even told you that multiple students have told me if they could do it all again, they would have chosen game play experience over the multiball they got in lessons and you still won't respect the opinion of the actual people taking the lessons... only what you feel is right... same treatment you give your students. Also, you're a Mod... don't try to insult me by calling my experiences "little" when you know nothing about me or the experiences of the students I've encountered. If you choose to discount them just to push your own agenda with you and your ITTF coaching book, thats on you. As a coach... feedback from your students is something you should prize. If you just discount feedback just to do whatever you feel they need... then you are ignoring a vital part of coaching and that reflects back on you with you unable to adapt to different students per how they learn.
I can definitely agree to say that we agree just to disagree... but if you as a Mod wish to push this into some insult throwing flamewar... don't be surprised if I really start obliging as I have some pretty negative comments about the way you coach and the way you treat your students. But I have a feeling it'll lead to the abuse of power if it pushed that far and you would start suspending people just because they disagree with you. But then again... I don't really care if I get suspended so do your worse. Qualifications of you or your cited sources don't mean jack crap to me if what you teach isn't logical and doesn't make sense per the situation. George W Bush has the qualification of being a former President of the USA and we all know what the majority of the world thinks of him and his policies. He's written books and made things into law too... doesn't mean people have to agree with it. Same goes with you and your cited sources. Some will agree... some won't. However, I have the will to question the status quo and thats how new views are communicated. If no one questioned the status quo, everything would be only 1 way... 1 dimensional and this game wouldn't be as great as it could be if people didn't question what was "accepted" to make it better.
But a coach is a coach and I still respect that you are willing to teach people freely as I do so if you want to continue with this lil debate as it gets more heated... I have no problems with it... in fact bring it on. Me and APW use to get into it also and it grew into mutual respect after we understood each others views. Some of the views I've used are actually from him which made me see coaching methods here differently with the way they "China" train people who have no intention on being serious tourney players trying to make their strokes perfect and their basics perfect through crazy multiballing. Something that can not be achieved realistically. Sometimes you need to work with what you have and make it the best it can be using other methods with more realistic training. This is one of those cases. Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 8:35am |
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Speedplay
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 10:53am |
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Rack, when you hire a coach, I assume you do this to learn? If he should be able to teach you something, he is most likely better then you, correct? So, why question his methods? Not saying the coach is always right and I do agree that we all have different goals with out game, but you are "attacking" multiball as it was bad, when in reality, it's a very good exercise for those with real ambitions to improve their game in the long run.
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The holy grail
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 1:49pm |
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Sure I hire a coach to improve. But if I realize that his teaching method does not work for me as well as another method... don't I have the right as his paying customer to ask the coach to try another method? A coach knows his ways to teach... but he does not know the person and how the person learns best. However, I as a person, know myself much more than a coach does. If I feel an alternative method would help me learn easier... would the coach me right to override me with his agenda? However if Yogi was the coach, he's saying he wouldn't care what I thought would help me... no matter what he would push multiball on me which is where I strongly disagree. This is the point of the whole thing... How many times have I said... multiball isn't bad... there are situations where another method may be better? I probably said it over 5 times already. I've also said... multiball is great... when the student actually runs into opponent levels where they can utilize the training more. Is that an attack on Multiball?
Even in your own quote Speed... you say
"very good exercise for those with real ambitions to improve their game in the long run."
The key phrase being "in the long run." Thats exactly my point.... multiball helps most in the long run when you start playing good skilled players. However, in the beginning, matchplay's importance and general experience is of higher priority if you had to choose 1 or the other to do more.
Speed... if you were brand new to the game and you had 1 week to train before a tiny tourney... and you could only pick one to train for 1 hour a day... multiball or surpervised actual practice points against people with differing setups... would you choose multiball and play no practice points? Which would give you a better chance to win if when you stepped into that tourney with only multiball experience from a high level coach and you run into some 1000 player using a premade worn out anti like setup or wacky pips setup (which is quite common) which gives you balls nothing like you multiballed so all your multiball strokes don't work?
Wouldn't the supervised matchplay experience have helped u more? And after you beat this person and you started moving up in the ranks... lets say you're 1600 a few months later and you see people start to consistently be able to attack you or you're able to consistently attack other people... wouldn't multiball make more sense to start learning then? Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 1:59pm |
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kenneyy88
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 1:53pm |
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Multiball is best in the beginning because they cannot sustain a rally yet. So best to drill some correct form in. Then they are ready for a single ball.
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:00pm |
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So you can't sustain a rally with learning using 1 ball? I don't know about that one... I learned using 1 ball just doing a basic FH FH drill then BH BH drill as did many people I know. How often do you see low level players come to a club with a giant tub of balls trying to multiball? Almost never... yet they're able to learn fine. Are you trying to tell me if you don't multiball... you can't be good?As I said... multiball is definitely not a requirement at that level. If it was that important... you would see people everywhere start buying tubs of balls and trying to learn how to feed. Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 2:06pm |
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tpgh2k
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:11pm |
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i've seen many people (and i train beginners) who have real trouble sustaining a rally. especially when you're trying to work on hand eye coordination, then on form, then on recovery.
this is what i do for my club and what the team does for the women's team. when we have to rebuild, we do so from scratch.
it really helps them loosen up their arm. now also remember that matchplay does help too, that goes without saying.
we've got a tournament in about 1.5 months so right now it's 1 hour multiball and 1 hour free play.
so that's my point of view =)
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dici
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:15pm |
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To me, 1 ball FH to FH and BH to BH is the most basic drill requirement that all player who want to be some what pro should able to do it. Like for most of the players (even though 99% are casual) over my place, there is nobody that able to do this drill with me, except one player. While multiball provides another way of improvement. As I recall, we learn our basic forehand and backhand drill with only single ball. Then we practice the loop/loop drive with multiball. But if both of you and your training partner has a good ball control, there are some drills that does not necessary require multiball at all, and still able to keep yourself move around the table (see Ryu Seung Min's forehand drive drill in youtube). |
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:25pm |
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Right TPGH... but at your level... multiball is quite useful. You'll see what you see in multiballs quite often at your level. You're over 1500 if I remember correct?
However, at lower levels, is multiball required in order to learn the game? Certainly not. Like I said in the other post... if it were THAT important... you would see every single new player buy a tub of balls and try to learn how to feed. I don't know ONE person who did that and I've met alot of people throughout the years.
Most people I know who moved up the fastest... from 1500 and under... used 1 ball to learn and drill. Then they made it a point to challenge EVERYONE for max experience. I had one guy... totally new to the game... in 3 weeks he went from noob who couldn't counterhit well to demolishing 1650 players using 1 ball to train and all matchplay. He doesn't even know what multiball is! I have another friend where I work... he's never done multiball either... he played Albert (Cagaragesales) who was 1800 at the time and took him to max with some premade from India (the brand was something ridiculous and funny like Kung Fu rubber or something)... later beat him. He hasn't had coaching nor multiballing.
My point is... it's quite possible to be good without ever touching multiball and never let any coach no matter how good he is... tell you it's not possible. If you can still get good without it... how really important is it? However try to flip the situation... can you ever get consistently good without extensive matchplay experience? Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 2:33pm |
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beeray1
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:31pm |
that guy sounds like a magical example of a gifted gifted person. haha.
I agree with you about 1 ball and matchplay working a lot for people under a certain level playing better players- that's also how I got to a certain level so fast in the first year or so. But I disagree that you'd see a bunch of people buying balls learning to feed. That would involve people having to get past laziness, and go into the actual 'training' side of the game, which even a lot of serious players are unwilling to do as much as they should. I think it IS important. It's the most important training method in my opinion. It simulates match like situations at a much higher consistency than one ball, and it allows you to push the limits of how fast you should move. You CANT do that with one ball. The point of multiball half the time is to go beyond what you will ever see in a match, to get you accustomed the reading the ball faster and moving faster than you will have to in a match, but doing things you'll do in a match. A great example is multiball for choppers, and another good example is the multiball video of xu xin just doing FH's at the table.
you can end up pretty good without ever having used multiball. It depends on the person and their perception of the game. But also, you will never go beyond a certain level without using it. Edited by beeray1 - 09/12/2011 at 2:33pm |
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tpgh2k
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:34pm |
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for the 1500+ players, it's a lot more helpful. but for people who are just learning the game, it's useful too. but definitely not a must. i just look at it this way. with a 1 ball drill. it would take about a month to learn fh and bh counters. this takes into account the really slow pace, breaking down bad habits, and recovery.
when we moved away from the 1 ball drill and brought in a bucket, that time was reduced to 2 weeks. keep in mind these are people (guys and girls) who barely touched the paddle.
of course you can learn pretty well and quickly with 1 ball. but my emphasis is on the ability to provide repitition. Edited by tpgh2k - 09/12/2011 at 2:40pm |
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:38pm |
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I must know alot of magical gifted people then! But great counter point... back to what you were saying Bee... as you said... multiball pushes the limits of how fast you can move.... do you think a 1200 player can push you to that limit consistently to actually make use of that training? Most 1200 players I know push and push... and push... maybe make 1 FH outta 5. You can totally learn how to loop underspin correctly with 1 ball. Also you say it simulates match conditions beyond normal consistency which is totally correct... I agree... but would you face anyone in the lower levels that consistent? And like I said... I totally agree multiball is important... just later around 1500+ when you actually see people have the skill to push you that far.
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:40pm |
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Correct TPGH... but feeding isn't rocket science. if you want to do it nice and slow.. a noob can get a tub of balls and push it to you to random locations. It might be slower... but they can still do it. Why don't we see people doing it then if it's such a critical skill to need under 1500? We see people buying robots for thousands of dollars... yet they don't buy a tub of balls for 100 bucks and train with friends? Like I said... I haven't seen it... have you?
Those old asian guys in clubs who tend to beat people being consistent and tricky... do you think they've ever multiballed in their life? If it's as critical as everyone says it is... you should be able to walk up to anyone in a club... and the majority will say to you.... yes I have multiballed... but that certainly wouldn't be reality. Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 2:43pm |
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tpgh2k
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:41pm |
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lol. you do have a point rack. i've seen a lot of people try and feed multiball. and it's not even the hard stuff yet. basic slow fh topspin. but they fail with placement of the ball. you'll get some wide, some close to the elbow, some miss the table, and maybe a few get it in right. now lets move onto pushes, that's even worse from ppl i've seen. pushes end up being high, too fast, too deep, the list goes on.
it took me 4 months to learn how to feed. and i'm only ok at it. i just feel that people who are new to the sport don't see the use of multiball but would rather invest in a robot. the robot is great and all, but someone who can feed well is much better and cheaper  Edited by tpgh2k - 09/12/2011 at 2:48pm |
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Rack
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:44pm |
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Exactly I finally got through to you! Now you see my point the whole time! Multiball is definitely beneficial... I've been saying all along it has been. But it definitely doesn't end you and your table tennis aspirations if you don't have it. You don't have to have it forced down your throat like Yogi would. You can be just as good just playing matches and having someone correct you (which is how majority people learn!)... AND it would be more realistic... AND it would teach you about all the different styles of play... something multiball struggles to do at times which is the major CON that the poster wants. This is why people have trouble with long pips at lower levels. I've never seen a coach multiball someone with long pips... so when it comes time and you run into one... you've literally never seen it and you'll lose if you haven't had the play experience.
Edited by Rack - 09/12/2011 at 2:48pm |
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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beeray1
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Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:51pm |
getting to 1650 in 3 weeks? you know a lot of people like that? California is where it's at lol.
But I was agreeing with you- under a certain level it's not as big of a deal. Like you said- most guys at 1200 aren't going to give you conistent balls, they don't even know what they are doing half the time. But for overal development with a goal of getting to somewhat of a high level i think it's a necessity. I personally feel like in my game right now, I'm not going to get much better unless i really start doing things like that. I've gotten better in the last year simply by becoming better at reading the game. I need more robotic drilling now. The thing that hurts is that most people are too lazy to drill or multiball. They are happy playing matches. I almost want to teach my girlfriend how to feed haha.
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Rack wrote: