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Multi Ball Training: Pros and Cons |
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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who says you are playing with a friend? If you are in a club, you are most likely going to be playing competitively. If you are in a school, they are trying to beat you to stay on the table. If you want to practice loop against underspin, then you have to serve underspin. The majority of people aren't going to get adequate practice because they are going to serve different types of spins to try to win the game.
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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Majority of people will not be training but playing. This thread is about training. READ the title. If I found someone interested in table tennis. I will definitely not be playing games with them, if they want to learn. I will be working with them on their strokes feeding slow balls. Then try to get them to go to a single ball rally.
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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You don't go to the club with friends? You don't see other beginners at the club? (theres usually a beginners table so they don't bother the advanced people). I'm pretty sure you can get a beginner to push to you within a game... thats like 80-90% of their game when they start. All they do is push and smack stuff. I'm pretty sure you can find someone to train with in the club also. Theres always usually 1 or 2 people just wanting to hit around or drill and not play games because they're afraid. If not... just call a friend who can be your training daily training partner... tons of people do that.Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 5:40pm |
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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Nope I don't go to the club with friends. Most of the people at clubs are not young people, unless you are at ICC or Cali. Clubs are not beginner friendly places.
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Where you located?
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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New York. If you want to improve, you have to practice. This requires a conversation with another person that wants to help you improve. Or you have to get a coach. I have learned the medium way, having some practice sessions. When I had to play games, I had to try to practice my strokes, while losing a lot of games. Otherwise I will not improve. This has taken years to get a good level. If I have a beginner who wants to learn this game, I will not be playing games with him, but having DELIBERATE PRACTICE.
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Yeah thats exactly what I mean by play games... play practice games with people without caring if you lose or not. Just focus on improving. Winning comes with experience.
For example... if you're wanting to work on looping underspin... tell yourself within your practice games... any underspin that comes... I'm going to get in position... and loop the dam thing. If you miss... you miss.... learn how to adjust and keep doing it.
If you're worried about your stroke... ask someone to watch.
But I might be out in New York towards the end of the year for the Tourney of Champions... can meet you up at one of the clubs over there and practice with you if you're down. Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 5:58pm |
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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Thats the way I learned and I know that will take too long to learn. Say you are on a college team, and need to train someone new. I would not play practice games and hope they are practicing something useful. Lets take improving loop vs underspin. I would have them serve underspin or me, then when the push comes, have them loop it. Then I would repeat that. Preferably with a basket of balls. In a game against someone else. They might serve backspin, but most likely its long, someone will loop the ball and they pick up the ball. Another time, they push long, they loop once. They got a ball of practice. And its every other serve because the other guy might be serving long topspin or something. Yea tournament of champions looking forward to that. Going to try to tape some matches. If I'm available, I can practice with you if you want.
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Rack
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Sure... I'm trying to form a group of 3 to go... me... other friend is around 1800... other friend is 2000. I'm trying to convince my old coach to go too... 2400 for him. He likes to play people with his cell phone. We're all friendly regardless of what level you are cause we've all been beginners at one time. If you wanna drill we can drill, if you wanna play games, we can play games.
But as for your bucket of balls method... we do exactly the same thing. We play practice points with a bucket of balls on the side so we can get the random serve return practice too. For example...
Random serve... one person pushes... other person loops... open point from there on. If the ball goes out... grab it from the tub. You can gain just as fast that way as you can doing true feeding multiball drills.
Reason why we do that which relates to this thread is because it's more realistic to what you'll see playing other people. We could just do it the true multiball way of feeding... then random feeds but practice against random serves is good plus you get to experience the randomness of how people return via their loop... some are super spinny... some are drives... so it gives you extra practice there too along with the footwork involved. Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 6:26pm |
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yogi_bear
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this is what you never get rack:
1. you keep insisting on different things then after you get cornered you change your stance a lil bit. you continue to say that multiballing is not needed but you also say multiballing is essential. you say its a good part of the training program but you attack it as if its the main fault players lose to experienced players. you are even biased from the start when you compared a player who does multiball drill against another player. have you considered each player's playing experience in the first place? 2. you would site your experience to support yours claims but when your experience is questioned by me posting my sources and people who are authorities in TT you quickly ditched this sources because according to you reading books as a coach and listening to these people who knows mooooorrrreeeeeeee than you'll ever know about TT are not believable. 3. you keep attacking multiball drills as if its the culprit of people losing but have you considered what kind of training they had? its easy to blame multiballs and say hey its the multiball drills fault because i cannot loop a push which is randomly placed! then you would say multiball is not effective because it cant help you with that! all of these answers which are not true. a good coach analyzes a players needs first by asking him his difficulties. by correcting his strokes thru multiballs he proceeds to table specific drills practicing the situations on how to react on the incoming ball or attacking the ball ,etc. after that he proceeds to match plays! 4. talking about china training. this is the part that is a dead give away that you know nothing about TT training in china. you would always equate multiball drills as part of the 8 hr training regimen in china. WRONG! there are lots of clubs in china who do not train players at 8 hrs. there are a lot of clubs who train players for just 2 hrs and multiball is part of that training! so if they include multiballs in their training for BEGINNERS of which you have been claiming is NOT NEEDED or NOT NECESSARY, are they just wasting the time of the players there? so you as a player who multiballed for 2 years knows better than these chinese coaches basing on the arguements you have given? 4. you then proceed to the reasoning that people have no time for multiballs, people don't have the money to pay for coaching, people dont china train etc etc. all of which are crappy tries in order to evade the real topic here! the topic here is the effectiveness of multiball as a training tool for beginners! we are talking about the best training method here are we? we are not talking about the best method with regards to being practical from the beginning, we are talking about the best here. both are different topics! i rest my case!
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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1) It isn't needed and it certainly isn't vital under 1500! I've been saying that all along! You can do 0 multiball and still become a good player. You can get by without it. You can however also choose to multiball all you want under 1500... but as APW said whos a fantastic and experienced coach... if you're really just a casual player playing under a certain few hours a week... multiball provides no benefit... training like the CNT can even hinder your development. You questioned my experience just because I'm a normal everyday player and you assume that disqualifies me from being qualified to speak out... are you going to question APW's experience also as a coach and a player??? APW's been around the game for a long time.
2) Just because you have more experience in something doesn't mean everyone has to do it your way. People find other ways to do things. Just because China multiballs everyone to death... does not mean I have to multiball everyone to death. There are plenty of other training methods I can use other than multiball.
3) The players I've seen have who took alot of multiball and failed had more than adaquate strokes. I'm pretty sure their coaches are more qualified than you as one of was a former Seniors Champion and another a Former Head Coach of a Chinese Womens Provincial team. The main problem they faced was they multiballed WAY more than they played games since they would come in... get lessons where they multiballed for 1-2 hours, play 1-2 games for 20 minutes vs people in the club, then go home to work on schooling. So when it came time to play games, randomness caused doubt and hesitation.
4) Correct they do Multiball in China. However, are there Chinese players in China who got to good playing levels without any multiballing? I'm 100% sure you can find a good player who has never multiballed in their life. APW himself even said he learned TT when multiballing wasn't even invented yet and he provided the Falkenberg as a alternative to multiballing. Does that not prove that there are other ways other than multiball? Therefore, if these players exist who have not multiballed... is multiballing required or absolutely needed as you say it is? No it isn't! As i've repeated over and over again... multiballing is a supplemental training method... you can do 0 multiball... do other training... and still become great.
5) How am I evading the situation? I was listing out the situations and probability people multiball and why it's not very popular in the mainstream. It's popular when you're coached... but not very popular in the mainstream because you said Multiball was vital and that everyone should do it. Yet reality is the majority of people have not done it. This is how things are in the US and the rest of the world. Are you in the US right now? The average everyday table tennis player who has played for fun has never multiballed and does not have perfect flawless strokes like they do in China. If you walk into a club, do you see the majority of people lining up for coaching and multiballing? Nope! Majority of the people come to play for 1-2 hours for fun and then they go home. Does that mean they can't become good players? Of course not!
I also rest my case!
You know... we both know this isn't getting no where. You have your views. I have mines. You're not gonna change your view... I'm not going to change my view.
So let's just agree that we disagree and move on. It ends here so no need to reply to this.
Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 10:10pm |
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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I wouldn't say theres no high spirit... there is passion for the game though... its just 2 passionate (very stubborn) people debating about TT who have different ways of doing things.
But hopefully it ends now since our views differ too much.
It's like politics... you have your right wingers who usually believe everything should be done traditionally (that'ed be Yogi)... and you have your left wingers (Me), who believe in alternatives, new ideas, adaptation to circumstances. And of course right wing and left wing never work well together.
However, I totally agree with you Fatt... I'd have no problem ball feeding or playing games all day long and have a blast. Both are fun and has it's uses.
Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 10:20pm |
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roundrobin
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You don't need multiball drills to get to 2200+ level, but it will certainly make it easier, imho...
Like APW, when I started in Taiwan (and then Argentina) we also did not use advanced multiball training like most players do nowadays. We did, however, use bucket-loads of balls during our drills with fellow players so we did not have to pick up the ball all the time. |
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Rack
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Exactly RR... another highly experienced person I highly respect from the Cali TT community!
As long as you have a ball and good training partners of different skills and styles, you can train for anything that a amateur player will see. Having a tub of balls so you don't have to pick up balls all the time certainly helps.
Thats exactly how I train and all my friends train... we don't multiball all the time like they do in China.... it's just not realistic for everyone to do that.
Plus you tend to lose alot of balls when you multiball (I hate that).
It's realistic for a small group of people who want to be really serious at Table Tennis to do that and I totally respect that they do.
It's fine that they benefit from it... but some other people might not. And just because they don't doesn't mean there aren't other avenues of training other than multiball one can pursue.
I had both multiball available and general gameplay practice available... my own preference was the gameplay practice. Some other people might choose multiball which is perfectly fine. Not everyone will choose the same route and everyone has their own preferences. It doesn't make sense to force someone down one route when they don't feel its as beneficial to them as another route.
It's like saying some super experienced person comes up to you and says... everyone in China eats rice and it benefits them... that means you have to eat rice. No other alternatives! (Ridiculous isn't it?)
I'm Chinese myself and I stopped eating rice because of the health benefits! Does that automatically disqualify me or say I'm not qualified to speak out for my personal preference? Of course not!
Then the experienced person says... I have 30 years experience and I read books written by experienced people about rice... what are your sources... if all of China can eat rice and stay healthy why can't you... you listen to me because you're less qualified. If you don't eat rice I'll force you because I'm more experienced than you. (Even more ridiculous!) Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 11:08pm |
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APW46
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Ditto, just to add, I can see how this little argument is looked at differently by different players with different perspectives, IMHO, anything that involved bat hitting balls is useful for a beginner, but you know, what is a beginner? 10 yrs old is one thing, I have a 'beginner' who is 70 this year. You have to look at every player and equate what they actually want from the game and what their objectives are. I would say for an aspiring international player, multiball is essential for a number of reasons, but lets face it, who is an aspiring International on this forum? All the aspiring internationals I know (and I know many) don't have the time or need for TT forums, they are too busy training towards their realistic goals. If you are an established 2000 player and wish to get to 2400, you need to look at a realistic way of achieving your goal, and part of that realism needs to be based on how many hours you have to train,and who you can train with, not who your coach is, I don't care if its Lui Gouliang, If you are only training two hours a week its not gonna make much difference, and its the same for the coaching methods, whether they include multiball or not. Your coach needs to do what is best for YOU, not bestow a coaching mantra upon you that is not achievable. They will always take your money, whatever.
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bonggoy
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Very good point. I use to get some coaching with a high level coach in my area. He played at the World Championships. He grew up, just like myself, in the Chinese training system. If I have a child starting out, I will get him coaching from this guy. However, the few times I went to him, the training feels very familiar (I did the same training when I was in my teens), but at my age, I needed more tailored training based of who I am (body type, age, stamina, style, how ingrained my strokes are, etc). I've since decided to do it on my own and train with a couple of players. I do MBT (start with drill - MBT - end with drills) and structured and unstructured drill. I do it on alternate days. Btw, what is a 20/40 circuit? |
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Speedplay
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All methods have their pro's and cons, but to dismiss the multiball is kind of naive according to me. This goes regardless of the time you have to work on your game. I don't know of any other training that give you the same number of strokes/minute.
But, as APW states, you have to look at the players and their needs, and doing multiball with a 70 year old beginner might not make sense, but, this doesn't mean multiball isn't good, because it says more about the student then the method of multiball. |
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Speedplay
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You can simulate the Falkenberg drill with multiball, with out the interuptions for missed shots. When you play a drill, when ever a playermiss a shot, there is a break to pick up the ball (or, to get a new one from the tube) but in multiball, there is no break and the risk of the feeder missing is close to zero, so you get to play more strokes/minute. |
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tpgh2k
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that's what i've been trying to point out but no one listens to the asian guy =(
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Rack
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Even in multiball, your tub is going to run out sooner or later and you have to pick up balls (unless you hired people to do it like the CNT but I haven't seen alot of clubs with that setup). Thats what the tub of balls is for while you do the Falkenberg that APW, I , and RR mentioned. If anyone misses, just grab another ball from the tub and keep going. Very minimal slow down with the tub available or a few balls in your pocket. It's like doing a FH FH or BH BH drills with movement but no ones really "feeding" if you get what I'm saying. Just 2 people hitting and drilling especially when you can't find any high level feeder (which are kinda rare) or can't afford a coach. Accomplishes very similar goals to multiball. Just like you can do serve, push, loop, open play drills with a tub of balls without any need of people "feeding". In essence it's just practice points.
And APW makes a great point about needing to adapt the training to the person which I was trying to stress on earlier. Just like when he says when you have someone whos 70, theres no use to force multiball on them. Just like if you have someone who feels multiball doesn't benefit them as much, theres no need to force it on them. Many other ways to train are available.
Thats why multiball isn't required or vital until you hit a certain level. Again, I'm not saying its not useful to some... it is... due to the fact that you get to hit more. But theres many viable alternatives to achieve the same training. The proof is in the many people like APW and RR who became fantastic players when multiball wasn't even invented yet. Edited by Rack - 09/14/2011 at 2:03pm |
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Speedplay
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I am, but perhaps that's because I already agree with you? Rack, in a drill, you have 2 players who can make a mistake, thus forceing the break to pick another ball up and play with. In multiball, there is only one player who can stuff up, and guess what? When he does, there is already another ball coming his way for him to hit at, so there are no breaks. Also, drills aren't perfect practice, there are pro's and con's with drills as well. One of the cons is that often player tends to play in a way to keep the "rally" going. Now, how is that for simulating a real match? |
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APW46
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you can have 'regular' and 'irregular' drills, just like you can have regular and irregular feeding with multiball. I have to admit, I've never been keen on the use of multiball unless its for absolute beginner feeding, or advanced drilling of advanced players, the main reason being that it allows players to let rip without any consideration for consistency, this does not matter for advanced players, they are consistent anyway and are using multiball for extreme footwork and squeezing the time between stokes to an unrealistic level to aid their recovery. The fact that they are hitting sitting ducks is irrelevant, they are not practising hitting sitting ducks.
The intermediate player? well, he's practicing hitting sitting ducks.......
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Rack
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Totally understandable and a great point Speed...
Yes you have 2 players that can make mistakes but it doesn't take much time for a person to grab another ball in their pocket and keep going. In "feeding multiball" yes its faster... I totally agree with you on that. So lets say you have a ball flying at you 1-2 seconds later. In drilling, lets say the person needs 4-6 seconds to pull a ball out of their pocket which gives you a little break time. So back to multiball... how long can you last at that pace and is that realistic game pace where stuff comes at you and you're ripping at full power at "sitting ducks" as APW says? Usually when I watch intense multiballing, the person gets gassed pretty darn quickly then needs to take a 5-10 minute break to get a drink... catch their breath. I've never gotten as gassed in an actual game as I have in multiball because the pace is different.
The drillers however have more time to recover and can keep going longer where they gain back much of the deficit of the slower speed. Most people I know can last much longer physically doing drills than they do 100% multiballing which is a pretty ruthless pace most of the time... especially the ones designed to take your footwork to the limit but even non moving but full power multiball is quite taxing on the body. Yes you can slow down the multiball to compensate... but then you would lose the advantage of the speed of it which is one of the main advantages of it.
It doesn't mean that its not beneficial... it totally can be... but for some people... it might not be as beneficial because they might last multiballing for 30 minutes to 1 hour... vs being able to last drilling for 2 hours. In that extra hour or so, who knows what you could have discovered in your game.
But the point is... theres always another way to do it per different people and when teaching, we must adapt to the individual instead of pushing everyone into one route.
And thats totally understandable that people do try to keep a rally going. Thats when you play practice point drills with a tub of balls where both players have the intention of winning your point which provides the realistic simulation/randomness of real match play. It's practice points to "put everyone together" that you've drilled where it doesn't matter if you win or lose the point. But of course, the more you win your points the better since you will have been able to apply what you have learned in an actual game scenario vs a multiball scenario. That is the ultimate goal... to be able to use and combine what you've learned drilling, in an actual game scenario. Some people perform stuff in drills, but are unable to in actual game scenarios which can be a con.
Btw... Very glad we're back to "civil" discussion where we can acknowledge the different viewpoints of different people regardless of how experienced they are! When we can pool the experiences of different people and understand their perspectives is when forums are most beneficial. Kudos to everyone participating. Edited by Rack - 09/14/2011 at 4:22pm |
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kenneyy88
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I agree with this statement, saying it all along. Never thought about intermediate players. But for intermediate level players it is a fuzzy area. But I think you should use all the tools you can get to practice. If you can get some multiball in with your regular drill practice, some matchplay, some physical fitness; they you are golden.
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Rack
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LOL darn it... you made me yawn at work when I read that.
Edited by Rack - 09/14/2011 at 5:07pm |
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