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Need looping thin advice. |
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42andbackpains
Silver Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 623 |
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Posted: 10/02/2015 at 6:10pm |
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One of my issues is when i loop, i tend to loop off the table. I have asked my coach (2550 rating) what am I doing wrong. And he tells me i am using too much force/impact and not looping thin enough. He tells me i dont need to adjust my stroke or angle, but need to loop thinner. I kind of understand what he is saying, in my mind i should only engage the topsheet & and some sponge. And what i am doing wrong is that i am engaging too much of the topsheet, sponge and wood. Is this a high level technique where you can differentiate how much you engage the overall looping stroke? Do you have many different types of looping strokes in your arsenal? I would like your advice and opinion on my issue and maybe help me figure this out. Thanks in advance.
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Mind is willing, but the back goes out too often :P
OSP Ultimate II 88 grams FH Dianchi D w/ Secret Sauce BH Butterfly T05 Red USATT rating keeps going down |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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This will be interesting.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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42andbackpains
Silver Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 623 |
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Interesting and perplexing to me...
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Mind is willing, but the back goes out too often :P
OSP Ultimate II 88 grams FH Dianchi D w/ Secret Sauce BH Butterfly T05 Red USATT rating keeps going down |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Since I have told you some of my thoughts and offered to hit with you, I will let others chime in before I do.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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As a last thing, note that the ITTF manual distinguishes between peeling/coating and gumming as looping contacts.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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If I were you, I would not change the connect point ( aka ... loop thinner.....). It is easy to hit the ball to the net unless your opp / coach gives you heavy top spin.
You can try to increase the brush feeling; the increased spin will help the ball to land on the table.
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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42andbackpains
Silver Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 623 |
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I have gone through some of the ITTF rules and regulations in my quest to be a regional ref/umpire. Somebody at ITTF should update there terminology to modern times, sometimes its just a lost cause. At least there youtube videos has improved a little in the last 2 months...lol
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Mind is willing, but the back goes out too often :P
OSP Ultimate II 88 grams FH Dianchi D w/ Secret Sauce BH Butterfly T05 Red USATT rating keeps going down |
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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If I want to hit a really spiny loop off a backspin ball I bend my knee, drop my paddle almost to my ankle and swing like I'm trying to throw a brick over a forty foot wall. My brush is so slight that my sponge doesn't even feel the ball.
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DreiZ
Platinum Member Joined: 06/01/2009 Location: New York, US Status: Offline Points: 2576 |
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The first loop is a good example of a nice brush contact. Hard to find good slow-mo videos of the contact itself. This one is also a nice brush loop against backspin. More detailed video. I think Bryan Pace has a nice brush loop, but he goes into a lot of detail about body mechanics and etc. Watch how and when he contacts the ball. It's hard to explain the feel but it does feel like you are trying to peel the ball like it's an orange or paint it with you paddle. "Accelerate through contact" is what I've been told to do as well. Hope that helps! Edited by DreiZ - 10/02/2015 at 7:04pm |
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Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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That's a very good analogy for teaching a spinny loop, I'll have to remember that when I help train the beginners in our club! |
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CroNone
Member Joined: 09/13/2015 Location: NZ Status: Offline Points: 59 |
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What I think your coach is talking about is a thinner contact on the ball. You can distinguish between a thick and thin contact by the sound if your stroke. If it's more of a "thud" it means that you haven't grazed the ball and it will have more speed. If it's a higher pitch and not loud your contact is thin and it will be loaded with spin - which will bring the ball down in an arc and more likely stay on the table.
The hard part about this, is that you still need a lot of bat speed so your stroke needs to be just as strong as a fast drive, it's just that the contact on the ball needs to be lighter than your current loop. I haven't tried this, but someone suggested putting a ball on top of a water bottle. Now try and loop the ball off the top of the bottle without sending the bottle over. You will need to skim it quite fast with a thin contact.
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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The water bottle idea sounds great, although you need to be careful with what you use so that you don't scrape your rubber if you miss. You could make a tube out of paper and tape it to the top of the table, then balance the ball on top.
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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The other replies seem to focus on opening loop against underspin, but I don't see in your original post where you specify that. I just see a problem that your loops in general go off the end of the table. I've seen Stellan Bengtsson lecture on this point a number of times. If a loop goes off the end of the table the most common advise I've seen him give (assuming the rest of your mechanics are OK) is to close your paddle more (face of the paddle towards the floor). Even with a closed face, you could still be going off the end of the table if you're putting too much vertical motion into your stroke. Here I'm specifically talking about looping an incoming topspin ball, not an underspin ball. I'm not saying that it's impossible to use a strong vertical motion against top spin -- in fact, this is the basis for the "slow, super-spiny loop." However, if you're just trying to do a normal loop against topspin, it doesn't really require much vertical motion. In fact, another technique I've seen recommended (not sure by whom) for better topspin on a loop is to follow through further on the stroke, but going in the direction of the ball (forward). If you're loops are against backspin and they're still going off the table, then you're probably hitting the ball too much instead of brushing. But that's a less common problem because most people who can't brush well hit the ball into the net, not off the table. You would probably do better to post some videos.
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42andbackpains
Silver Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 623 |
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I am trying to maintain the same contact point, i am trying to increase the spin & brush so i can get a more diving loop(ball that spins into or onto the table) I still cant tell which of my loops are spinnier. Is there a way to tell which loops are spinnier?
I am about 6' 1" and 43 years young and bending with a bad back is a issue on some days...I have had very big strokes since i started playing at the age of 12...now i am trying to shorten some of my strokes as advised by my coach. Shortening of my strokes has helped overall with my timing and catching up to the ball.
I have never watched Ariels video before, it is very nice. I have watched the 2nd and 3rd video before. I have watched the Chinese one many times and Bryan Paces videos are pretty good. I have taken a mental note where Bryan says your loop stroke should be 75% friction and 25% force. I will keep that in mind. Thanks
My clipper oversize is quite loud and I have become tone death to my own strokes. I will try to keep your advice in mind to listen and try to differentiate the differences in my strokes from the sounds it generates. I have no issues with bat speed, that is also one of my issues. I try to rip everything and stubbornly learning that its not good for my game & stamina.
I have tried closing my paddle more and it does work, but it feels like i am changing my stroke where i am creating more topsin but the stroke does feel forward like and does not feel natural to me. Maybe i should stick with it until it feels natural. And yes, alot of my off the table loops are from topspin returns, but it also happens with underspin pushes too. I will try to post some videos tomorrow or the day after of my next training session. Thanks guys and gals for the advice so far. I will try to keep them in mind...Even though i am slowly but surely losing my mind. Edited by 42andbackpains - 10/02/2015 at 10:25pm |
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Mind is willing, but the back goes out too often :P
OSP Ultimate II 88 grams FH Dianchi D w/ Secret Sauce BH Butterfly T05 Red USATT rating keeps going down |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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We've been having sort of the same discussion over in my blog at OOAK:
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=28531&start=60 I have the same problems with generating spin as you, 42. My contact on loops is quite loud, but when I try to make a more silent sound I feel like the spinnis even less. I feel like I need to activate the sponge quite a bit to get good spin, but getting that that catapult sound without getting too much into the wood has been tough for me. Edited by Ringer84 - 10/02/2015 at 10:36pm |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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The key to brush looping is to figure out how to rotate the ball with your stroke. There is a rubber elasticity created by accelerating the right way and it isn't all about speed - it is about deforming the rubber with the right contact - going too hard will get to the wood, and going too slow will not get the deformation and pickup. Usually, most people who struggle with this either lack spinny serves or have never practiced dropping the ball and spinning it by themselves. While I have my own way of doing it, everyone does if a little differently so I recommend that you go to a table by yourself, grab a bucket of balls and drop one on the table and try to spin the ball when it comes up. It will teach you a lot about your stroke. You have time to observe the behavior of the ball on the ground and to see what kind of spin your contact is generating. Challenge yourself to increase the arc on the ball or reduce FHs arc on the ball. Use different contact points. Feel free to make the balk barely hop over the net or to make it go high over the net. This will make you familiar with your blade and rubber
The most important part of the body for looping is the elbow. And of course, be relaxed. Most of my slow spinny looping improved when I learned how to serve heavy backspin on both sides. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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The biggest thing that makes learning adults struggle with this, speaking as one, is the desire to hit the ball fast and a refusal to start from basics. The way I try to cure people of this bad habit is to show them that the better players in the club don't hit the ball as hard as they do. They may put more power into the balk, but the power goes into spin and this makes their timing and consistency better.
Edited by NextLevel - 10/02/2015 at 11:29pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Chicobo
Super Member Joined: 04/08/2015 Location: Fort Worth Status: Offline Points: 191 |
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I had the same issue a few months back (and i'm roughly similar rating to you). A coach told me to focus on my forearm snap motion of the loop. My loop accuracy was a lot better after an hour of doing single ball focusing on this aspect. I guess I was using too much arm motion (relatively) and it made my brushing less accurate. This might not be your issue, just sharing my own experience with the same problem.
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Stiga Genesis x2 on Nexy Rubicon
Galaxy Moon/Air Illumina Alpha on Andro Temper Tech Off- USATT 1620...Learning to play vs long pips |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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That's a good coach. The elbow is the critical part for controlling the loop. That's the part of the stroke I focus on first before teaching a full stroke. I don't always return to the ready position in the video below but the form is generally the right one if your focus is on spin. Around 4-5 mins in, I really slow down. Edited by NextLevel - 10/03/2015 at 12:21am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Thanks, fatt. It's a standard drill for learning players to use for building their strokes, and I have found it helpful for rebuilding my strokes as well when I want to think through issues. I was already over USATT 2000 when I did that video. I did it partly because a 1600 player wasn't a fan of the drill and even though I did it often, I never put it on tape. I show it to my students so they can see that these drills have value at levels higher than they think. I was rebuilding my forehand at this time, so the drill helped me think through the motion and helped me appreciate how good/bad my swing speed was at picking up the ball when brushing.
Edited by NextLevel - 10/03/2015 at 11:21pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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The funniest thing is that whenever I propose this drill to a player, they go to hitting with a robot, which defeats the whole point of trying to know your pure stroke...
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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42andbackpains
Silver Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 623 |
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I took a training lesson on Saturday 10/3 and during looping practice, my coach mention my swing was going upward to much and friction is key. So small correction, a little more forward motion and the balls are arcing more into the table. Also played a 1200ish player and decided to work on my game with mainly loops, the key for me to looping better is to relax as much as possible. Relaxing is a something i cant do very well either. Anyways my left knee is acting up and i will be out of action for about 2 weeks, my left knee/left side is acting up. Sucks to get old.
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Mind is willing, but the back goes out too often :P
OSP Ultimate II 88 grams FH Dianchi D w/ Secret Sauce BH Butterfly T05 Red USATT rating keeps going down |
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wilkinru
Silver Member Joined: 04/28/2015 Location: Las Vegas Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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I asked the best player in my town many years ago: Where do you make contact on the ball to loop backspin?
He told me the top of the ball. I didn't believe him. I didn't have the bat speed to do it. It's the key to brush looping, I think. On a side note, I really wish I could practice with NL (or something like) - willing to really break things down and learn. So many don't want to do that. It's a shame. Edited by wilkinru - 10/06/2015 at 6:37pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Feel better. You use boosted tacky rubbers so the contact points for all strokes are naturally higher on the ball. The problem isn't going up too much but that when you swing that hard, you need to close your paddle more to spin the ball. Yes, getting old sucks. Get rid of the Hurricane, get some nice European rubber and spin the ball slowly with good arc and torture the kids like the rest of us...
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Thanks. It's called Brett Clarke disease. If by some miracle I do Nationals, I will let you know.
Edited by NextLevel - 10/06/2015 at 10:57pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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