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What else is needed to beat the Chinese?

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Topic: What else is needed to beat the Chinese?
Posted By: yassermuslim
Subject: What else is needed to beat the Chinese?
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 11:37am
While watching this video, I was wondering what else is needed to beat Chinese. Is it skill, speed, tactics, fitness, power, concentration? I believe it's all there. However these two players are far in the ranking and always underdogs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABI85Y3A7fk - Click here



Re,



Replies:
Posted By: TBS9x
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 12:41pm
Just to notice, I think there's a problem when you upload your video because at least I can't see anything right now LOL. Well, beating is chinese is really hard as you all can see but from years to years, Schlager, Waldner, Timo Boll has proven that nothing is impossible.You understand me right ? Like many people are saying, chinese is much more professional in training table tennis than europeans.They have their own method, for an example : I heard that there are many '' Waldners '' and '' Samsonov '' in China.Some players have job to follow these guys as I said above and copy their game style, from a->z so the chinese players can train and make the real match easier.That's a good method but not any country can do like that, chinese has a really great source of men, they can have enough good table tennis player whenever they want.And one of the most important thing is : table tennis is the number 1 sport in CHina, I believe that's true.Besides, they are not weaker than europeans, they are really smart ( I have to admit that ! ), they have potential and tradition, that's why they are dominating the world of tt.What else is needed to beat the Chinese ? All the best european players have to unite together and discuss tactics, experience together and find a solution.One country can't do this.Even timo boll, the european no.1 can't win the chinese so many times, let's see what's gonna happen in the future


Posted By: ibupro
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 1:36pm
"...I was wondering what else is needed to beat Chinese. Is it skill, speed, tactics, fitness, power, concentration?"

Skill. These players are nowhere near as skilled as the Chinese in serve, return, and short game.


Posted By: ThaiLe
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 7:25pm
What else is needed to beat the Chinese?

Luck and lots of them and still might not be enough...LOL


Posted By: PingPongPulse
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by TBS9x TBS9x wrote:

Just to notice, I think there's a problem when you upload your video because at least I can't see anything right now�LOL. Well, beating is chinese is really hard as you all can see but from years to years, Schlager, Waldner, Timo Boll has proven that nothing is impossible.You understand me right ? Like many people are saying, chinese is much more professional in training table tennis than europeans.They have their own method, for an example : I heard that there are many '' Waldners '' and '' Samsonov '' in China.Some players have job to follow these guys as I said above and copy their game style, from a->z so the chinese players can train and make the real match easier.That's a good method but not any country can do like that, chinese has a really great source of men, they can have enough good table tennis player whenever they want.And one of the most important thing is : table tennis is the number 1 sport in CHina, I believe that's true.Besides, they are not weaker than europeans, they are really smart ( I have to admit that ! ), they have potential and tradition, that's why they are dominating the world of tt.What else is needed to beat the Chinese ? All the best european players have to unite together and discuss tactics, experience together and find a solution.One country can't do this.Even timo boll, the european no.1 can't win the chinese so many times, let's see what's gonna happen in the future


very nice explanantion TBS +1


Posted By: tdragon
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 7:34pm
Just recruit Chinese to compete with Chinese. Oh well! it is chinese game. Ouch


Posted By: ThaiLe
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by tdragon tdragon wrote:

Just recruit Chinese to compete with Chinese. Oh well! it is chinese game. Ouch


It does not work anymore.  I forgot where I read or heard but Chinese players have to wait 7yrs (after having another citizenship) in order to compete for that country.

Some1 please correct me if I am wrong.


Posted By: liXiao
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 8:08pm
Well Kenta was really close. One thing that I dont like people saying is how people like Kaii Yoshida are chinese and they are just playing for Japan. When in fact China didnt do sh*t for him. He won all of his Domestic and International titles when he lived in Japan. Just throwing that out there.


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Yinhe Qing


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by yassermuslim yassermuslim wrote:

While watching this video, I was wondering what else is needed to beat Chinese. Is it skill, speed, tactics, fitness, power, concentration? I believe it's all there.


I'm pretty sure they don't have the skill and tactics of the Chinese. I know this is highlights, but the fact so many points go to long rallies indicates their lack of short games kills. 


Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 10:06pm
This video emphasizes even more how TT is a 3 dimensional sport. These guys on the other hand, are only using 1 dimension. They start the point with a push or a roll, then go head to head against each other's strokes. The more consistent person wins....

From where I am sitting, this is simply not enough to swing and hope to beat chinese. You need strategy, tactics, you need great placement! These guys loop to each other, not away from each other, look, they don't even move from side to side!!!

Short game is very important. These 2 just like to keep the ball long. One thing I've learned is that any level above 1200-1400 has strokes. In warmup it even looks like some of those strokes are better than mine, but then you wonder why they never get higher up in ratings - consistency, lack of tacktics, one winged, overanticipating, too many unforced errors, lack of experience against various styles, etc....

This sport has too many things one needs to master in order to become a master good enough for top world players. Takes years to master all these skills and unforutnately for us in US, we simply don't have the luxury of time to learn these skills. We also lack experienced players with these skills to show us how some things are done. I think its very similar in other countries that these guys represent.


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Back to table tennis...


Posted By: yassermuslim
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 10:18pm
short game skills

Most probably you're right. It takes a lot of time, dedication and boring exercises to develop short game skills. I guess european coaches want to entertain audience more than winning. However a good tactical player can drag the Chinese into his strength - open rallies.
On the other hand it might be a good idea to change the service rule so that the receiving area is the last quarter of the table.
What do you think?


Posted By: jpingchow123
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by yassermuslim yassermuslim wrote:

short game skills

Most probably you're right. It takes a lot of time, dedication and boring exercises to develop short game skills. I guess european coaches want to entertain audience more than winning. However a good tactical player can drag the Chinese into his strength - open rallies. On the other hand it might be good idea to change the service rule so that the receiving area is the last quarter of the table.
What do you think?


No.


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Bryce Speed 2.1
Tackifire Special Soft 2.1


Posted By: DeathAngel
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 10:31pm
The short game is probably one of the most important part of the game at any level. It dictates an easy shot pooped up from a bad chop or a missed loop from a low short chop. I dont think enough players practice the short game even at a high level, well at least not to the extent of the chinese.

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Posted By: Dagoboz
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 10:56pm
How does anybody beat anybody. Anybody 1 must play better and score more points than anybody 2.
 
How do you beat the Chinese? You mean how does one nation become genuinely competetive with the Chinese? The answer is not found in short games, serves, forehands, back hands and so on. That is looking at the problem incorrectly. The answer as to how you beat the Chinese is simple. You have a better national infastructure for the sport than the Chinese. Of course the implementation of that would be brutally hard.


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Blade: Maze
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Posted By: ibupro
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 11:08pm
Originally posted by Dagoboz Dagoboz wrote:

How does anybody beat anybody. Anybody 1 must play better and score more points than anybody 2.

How do you beat the Chinese? You mean how does one nation become genuinely competetive with the Chinese? The answer is not found in short games, serves, forehands, back hands and so on. That is looking at the problem incorrectly. The answer as to how you beat the Chinese is simple. You have a better national infastructure for the sport than the Chinese. Of course the implementation of that would be brutally hard.


How would you go about creating a better system than the Chinese have?
Start the kids at 2 yrs old rather than 4-6? Genetic manipulation? The Curious Case of Benjamin Button?


Posted By: Recanter
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 11:21pm
How to beat the Chinese? You gotta understand that Table Tennis has a different meaning in China, than in the rest of the world.

If you can convince the Government to fund and take Table Tennis as seriously as the Chinese... then you'll be able to "cultivate" talent!


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Posted By: yassermuslim
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Dagoboz Dagoboz wrote:

How does anybody beat anybody. Anybody 1 must play better and score more points than anybody 2.

How do you beat the Chinese? You mean how does one nation become genuinely competetive with the Chinese? The answer is not found in short games, serves, forehands, back hands and so on. That is looking at the problem incorrectly. The answer as to how you beat the Chinese is simple. You have a better national infastructure for the sport than the Chinese. Of course the implementation of that would be brutally hard.


I guess you are right, on the national level you need depth, commitment, infrastructure, ... etc. However my question was about individuals.

Re,


Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 05/12/2009 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by liXiao liXiao wrote:

Well Kenta was really close. One thing that I dont like people saying is how people like Kaii Yoshida are chinese and they are just playing for Japan. When in fact China didnt do sh*t for him. He won all of his Domestic and International titles when he lived in Japan. Just throwing that out there.
 
Lixiao while I don't disagree with your argument, I have to counter it.
 
first, kenta being very close to ma lin was a very impressive sight. I dont know exactly how old he is, but he did well. But when you watch that match, you still see in every aspect who the better player is. Everyone has come close to beating everyone.. but the thing is that that doesn't mean much. But in this case, you have more of a point because kenta is so young. My argument is much stronger when someone is supporting a seasoned pro versus a seasoned pro. I dont know where Mizutani was at kenta's age, so for me its a "we'll have to wait and find out" moment. I heard someone say that the japanese kind of round off after 16.. but i have no validity to provide for that comment.
 
I do have a good opinion on your comment about Yoshida Kaii. I firstly have to say that watching the kaii hao match, kaii impressed me with his fighting spirit very much.. and every time i watched him make amazing shot after amazing shot.. my jaw dropped. But the thing is, wang hao always had a better shot to answer with. There are times in that match where i thought kaii was unstoppable with a shot, and then wang hao would expertly put it back in a way that seemed even more impossible. The thing about what you said is that, while the chinese never did anything for him and he had to make a name for himself in japan.. the reasoning is very strong. Yoshida Kaii didn't get anything out of china simply because he just isn't good enough. He isn't, nor has he ever been, up to a chinese national team level of play. I'm sure there are plenty of players in china that are the same level of play as yoshida kaii that we will never hear of. But that is because China has a much higher standard of playing skill than anywhere else in the world. Their nobodies can be any other countries top player or hero. The difference is that Yoshida decided to go do that for himself anyway, and as a result became a top pro because of experience he gained and the dedication he had. But realistically, like i have already said, the chinese probably have a line of players that are equal in skill as yoshida kaii is. The thing is that none of them are internationally ranked. Idk what rank he is.. lets say 30 as an example. Yoshida Kaii is WR 30, but I would put money on the fact that he is not close to the 30 best players in the world. There are many unranked players around, mostly in china im sure, that could probably sway the top 100 WR list.. and maybe you might find an all chinese top 10 after these nobodies can get exposure.


Posted By: 729 FX
Date Posted: 05/13/2009 at 12:48am
Well, how to beat the Chinese in a game played by nearly 90% of its citizen? The nation need to cultivate its citizen to start at a very young age 3-4 years old and all its citizen may be required to play table tennis.
In that sense the nation can compete with China.
Over the years, Schlager, Waldner and Boll has proven that nothing is impossible to break the Chinese great wall of table tennis. The Chinese is much more professional in training table tennis than any other countries in the world.  China has a really great resources of human capital which provide them enough good table tennis player whenever they want.
 
What else is needed to beat the Chinese ? All the best European and other part of the world players have to unite together and discuss tactics, experience together and find a solution. One country/nation can't do that. 


Posted By: wealthweb
Date Posted: 05/13/2009 at 3:14am
To beat the Chinese is not easy at all. A guy from China told me that during training he was asked by his coach to practice the same serve several hundred times within the same period of time before he is permitted to do new tricks. Are we ready for that kind of drill and discipline? The Chinese coaches are not satisfied in just breeding good players; they want to create terminators and bull-dozers which will eliminate anything that stands on their way. European style is straight forward and forceful. Chinese style is LING HOW (meaning FLEXIBLE TRICKY). European players focuses on strength. Chinese players focuses on Ying Yang Balance.

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Eric Yu
1st Blade: KTS Red + Omega II, Tenergy 64
2nd Blade: Butterfly Haruvatart-S ZL Carbon + Omega III, Tenergy 05
Dream Blade:Special Cypress Custom (Special Royal Treasure Art Product)+ Narucr


Posted By: scottymang
Date Posted: 05/13/2009 at 4:09am
Originally posted by tdragon tdragon wrote:

Just recruit Chinese to compete with Chinese. Oh well! it is chinese game. Ouch
 
I know that the Chinese are the best but it's an English game!


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Timo Boll ALC + 2x Rakza7 max = Scottymang


Posted By: sebas-aguirre
Date Posted: 05/13/2009 at 12:09pm
I think the fact that kenta plays close to the table with good placement and really pushing his opponent to failure has something to do.
his serves made the job difficult to ma lin too....
I think if you try to overpower ma lin or other chinese you are going the wrong path.
I think that with the infrastructure the chinese have it will be hard to beat them.
they are more professional.
and they have far many more players than other countries, and from quantity comes quality.
but life always shows us there are no rules or absolute paths, so a new waldner could be born anytime and kick all the ma's and wang's asses


Posted By: mwyatt
Date Posted: 05/13/2009 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by Dagoboz Dagoboz wrote:

How does anybody beat anybody. Anybody 1 must play better and score more points than anybody 2.

How do you beat the Chinese? You mean how does one nation become genuinely competetive with the Chinese? The answer is not found in short games, serves, forehands, back hands and so on. That is looking at the problem incorrectly. The answer as to how you beat the Chinese is simple. You have a better national infastructure for the sport than the Chinese. Of course the implementation of that would be brutally hard.


100% correct.

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http://mawyatt.com">


Posted By: shaks
Date Posted: 05/13/2009 at 2:02pm
On a different perspective. I think it is much more than just training. What you need is a different spiritual upbringing and also eating less red meat. That way your minds will be clear and bones will be flexible and your strokes  smooth and graceful like the chinese and also the japanese. See how humble and composed Ma long is while playing. It's not all aggression and focus. Most westerners play the game so stiff and that makes it hard to transition from touch to power and vice versa. Of course some like schalger and waldner were graceful in their youth.
good luck beating the asians.


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~shaks
Usatt 2150




Posted By: tatan
Date Posted: 05/13/2009 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by TBS9x TBS9x wrote:

Just to notice, I think there's a problem when you upload your video because at least I can't see anything right now LOL. Well, beating is chinese is really hard as you all can see but from years to years, Schlager, Waldner, Timo Boll has proven that nothing is impossible.You understand me right ? Like many people are saying, chinese is much more professional in training table tennis than europeans.They have their own method, for an example : I heard that there are many '' Waldners '' and '' Samsonov '' in China.Some players have job to follow these guys as I said above and copy their game style, from a->z so the chinese players can train and make the real match easier.That's a good method but not any country can do like that, chinese has a really great source of men, they can have enough good table tennis player whenever they want.And one of the most important thing is : table tennis is the number 1 sport in CHina, I believe that's true.Besides, they are not weaker than europeans, they are really smart ( I have to admit that ! ), they have potential and tradition, that's why they are dominating the world of tt.What else is needed to beat the Chinese ? All the best european players have to unite together and discuss tactics, experience together and find a solution.One country can't do this.Even timo boll, the european no.1 can't win the chinese so many times, let's see what's gonna happen in the future


well those Waldners and Samsonovs do not have the brain like originals so I don't think they make much of a difference.
IMHO the European players are less innovative in choosing and executing there shots.the touch shots are gone after Waldner leave the game.now they are either blocking or blasting.there is no balance.if Kreanga had a better defense he would have won many more matches and may be some against chinese too.
also modern European players don't have kill strokes like chinese.Waldii,Rossi,Persson,Gatien all had killing strokes which made them so competitive against chinese.
I still get amaized with the on the table backhand kill of A.Grubba.wow.

my point is if you go with normal strokes from the books and try to do lot of rallies the chinese are by far supirior by virtue of there hard and quality practise.you need to have manipulative(using brain and sudden strokes occationally raher than always going with conventional strokes) power and strokes which will end a rally.

I have seen Walner,Person,Rossi,Gatien,Grubba,Saive finished a rally smashing on a topspin from there opponent,none of the modern player have the skil.ok you cant smash every ball but some of them can be smashed,which will create mental disbalance for the chinese players.



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Posted By: yassermuslim
Date Posted: 05/14/2009 at 11:37pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drOulQjAAts&feature=related - Click here

Please have a look at this, specially at 0:34 the ceiling camera. See how Wang is close to the table compared to Schlagar and the way Wang transfers his weight while hitting the ball, that makes his stroke more powerful.





Posted By: 77g33k
Date Posted: 05/15/2009 at 12:00am
Wang is closer to the table since he hits the ball at the top(tacky rubber)while Schlaeger takes the ball when it is going down...


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Posted By: yassermuslim
Date Posted: 05/15/2009 at 12:03am
Originally posted by 77g33k 77g33k wrote:

Wang is closer to the table since he hits the ball at the top(tacky rubber)while Schlaeger takes the ball when it is going down...


You're right, that seems to be a major difference between Chinese and European technique.


Posted By: Salamandr
Date Posted: 05/15/2009 at 4:50am
you see that tactics and wide variety of surprising shots are the way how to beat Chinese, because they are super-drilled and better at most of standard patterns of the game. Common topspin clones like Boll will not have sucess. Boll improved his blocking game and uses head more, thats why he is much better now and can beat the Chinese. Kenta shows also unusual style and surprising blocking that is not standard return that Chinese expect. Waldner was the master at this varying. Schlager had also tactics and finishing power at 2003.

So I think the most important things are:

- variable play as much as possible

- good shortgame to prevent to many over-the-table kills

- well placed blocking like Oh Sang Eun, Kenta, Waldner

- ability to play fast kill shots like Schlager does to put pressure ( Mizu, Maze are lost here )

There should be "anti-chinese" camps and these things could be taught here to players from their youth, otherwise there is no chance, maybe Kenta will be first "star" when he improves his attack...


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T05 1.9
Baracuda 1.8


Posted By: nicefrog
Date Posted: 05/15/2009 at 9:19am
Wang liqin has a highly unusual stroke :) I tried to copy it the other day didn't work for me :S. How tall is he? hes seems to be a giant

In the first video the guy in the blue could have won nearly every point with a forehand down the line while the other guy was way over on the backhand hitting forehands but he just keeps hitting it back to him, whyyy


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Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 05/15/2009 at 9:36am
The posts in this thread that are macroscopic and deal with national infrastructure, coaching and training are correct.

The posts that are microscopic and deal with individual strokes and players are missing the forest for the trees.


Posted By: ttpt
Date Posted: 05/15/2009 at 2:19pm
I think the key is still funding. In this materialistic world, money produces results, and China provides whatever funding required to produce top TT players.

It is just that simple. Funding can buy top training. Funding can lure dedicated players. Funding can even maybe create a popular professional sports, if the funding last long enough (in China, it has lasted more than 30 years.)

For players who enjoy TT as a sport for themselves, there is always room to improve one's skill. That itself is the merit. Why bother worrying about beating the Chinese.


Posted By: zwu168
Date Posted: 05/15/2009 at 3:56pm
Style must be changed. Asians have agility but are not as strong as europeans. Why not capitalize on your strength like Wang Liqin. Since you cant move as fast as the chinese, hit hard like wang liqin

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OC WRB
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Posted By: yassermuslim
Date Posted: 05/15/2009 at 6:34pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hResoUg3jKU&feature=rec-HM-r2 - Click here

Money

I believe the Chinese put a lot of investment into sports in general and TT in particular. Parents and juniors believe that TT is a very good career with financial security.

Please watch this video carefully and note Oh Sang awesome style to trim Hao claws.





Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 05/15/2009 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by zwu168 zwu168 wrote:

Style must be changed. Asians have agility but are not as strong as europeans. Why not capitalize on your strength like Wang Liqin. Since you cant move as fast as the chinese, hit hard like wang liqin


I think this is a common misconception; and hope the folks with a physics background will back me up.

Have you ever noticed that most professional TT players look more like runners than weightlifters?

The speed of the bat at impact (or sum of forces from foot, knee, hip, torso, shoulder, elbow and wrist) is what determines the force imparted to the ball.

It's the reason that burly 300 lb Scandanavians who routinely compete at "World's Strongest Man" competitions can't necessarily hit the ball faster than a 5'9 130 lb string bean.


Posted By: wealthweb
Date Posted: 05/16/2009 at 1:29am
To overcome the Chinese, the non-Chinese players must come up with a good variety of tricky serves that are way superior over the Chinese serves. When we start playing ping pong as kids without getting any proper training from a professional coach, we always emphasis on creating tricky serves to surprise the opponent in order to keep winning. Kids don't lie. Their mind set is natural and their instinct is truthful. Go with the flow. It is time to learn some Tai Chi in order to understand the Chinese players.

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Eric Yu
1st Blade: KTS Red + Omega II, Tenergy 64
2nd Blade: Butterfly Haruvatart-S ZL Carbon + Omega III, Tenergy 05
Dream Blade:Special Cypress Custom (Special Royal Treasure Art Product)+ Narucr


Posted By: saif
Date Posted: 05/16/2009 at 3:40am
Here is the youtube video of chinese men's team warm up-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjDuRMqv9ZI - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjDuRMqv9ZI

Look for yourself the difference. Plz share with us what way did you find to beat these awesome robots.


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Tibhar Samsonov Alpha FH: Grip-S Europe BH: Rakza7 soft
Victas Koji Matsushita FH: Tenergy 80 BH: Feint long III
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Posted By: yassermuslim
Date Posted: 05/18/2009 at 10:39pm
I am not sure how much money the pros make, but I believe when it becomes large enough for a decent living and retirement, this will attract more juniors to the game. In china where the government rules everything - correct me if I am wrong - they finance schools, training centers, national team. Sports in china is a dream for youngsters.


Posted By: 729 FX
Date Posted: 05/19/2009 at 4:34am
TT is a very technical sports (which sports isn't?). What else is there needed to beat the Chinese?
 
Well, we need to analyse the TT game as a whole. We never think enough on how to improve the technique of the strokes and the development of the play. That�s why many times the training is oriented to improve the ability to make as less mistakes as possible, forgetting that, also in routine trainings, the true quality to research is the technique and its deep analysis.
 
When we get into a mistake, there are 2 reasons
1) wrong evaluation of the ball (objective) 
2) technical mistake (subjective).
The choices we make in a match, (or in the training ), always come as a result of of our choices which depends on what we really see and perceive. In the most cases we didn�t see the ball, so we made a wrong evaluation, hence the mistake.
 
Let's analyse the European style of play. In my opinion, Europe is paying the price for two mistakes:
1) laziness at work which accumulated from the mid-80�s, that is the importation of many foreign players weakened the continental history instead of enriching the technical rate, as the Europeans thought. It should be interesting to know the number of the Asian (majority are Chinese) players, that made Europe their permanent home are aplenty. Instead of enriching themselves from the technical point of view, allowing the local choaches to grow for a new training education and study of the technique, they prefered to let the improvement of many clubs and and national teams as it is.

2) the backhand stroke play. In the past 2 decades, the play became not just faster, but also more powerful, thanks to glues(now banned already) and to more and more perfect training methodologies, too. And that�s why the gap between Asia and Europe become even more clear, because, whereas the Chinese players, traditionally penholders that always played without backhand, developed the legs movement technique at the serve and an effective forehand play, the European players, on the contrary, continued to pursue the balance between forehand and backhand, thinking that a more centred position at the table should be more winning in comparison with the Asiatic one, definitely more shifted to the backhand angle of the table.
As history has it, in 1979 the Hungarian players promoted a short play and powerful backhand and forehand strokes with an almost extended arm. During the following years, the Swedish players developed a psychologically perfect management of the game together with really unique individual features (Waldner, Appelgren,Persson). In addition to that Gatien introduces his excessively forehand play.

What kind of damage does the backhand produce? Maintaining the position of the arm almost always more bent(European) , the waiting position, exactly for its features of balance between forehand and backhand play, creates problems related to reaction. The consequence of a too much bent arm leads to the execution of the forehand in a too blocked way: this doesn�t let the shoulder, that is the real propeller in ping-pong, do his work of push. Besides, a bent arm affected the peripheral quickness, contracting the stroke and reducing it to something more than a topspin opening of the game.
Examine the moments of the impact with the ball in Chinese/Korean players. Their common technical feature is the absence of the backhand in all its TT history.
Today Europe has no chances against Asia, as most European style has short, limited movements, with a very small participation of the shoulder and of the trunk while the Chinese/Korean has large movements with a total support of the shoulder and with the push of the body.

The Chinese has specialization , that is to operate a system of training in which the first target is to end the play with a forehand stroke, and it doesn�t matter in what kind of situation one find oneself in, the backhand stroke is considered an exception of the play and a bother for the opponent. To reach this target one must have powerful legs, muscle tone, and explosiveness.

Sorry if the above comment is too long winded.
(Most of the notes are extracted from elsewhere)
 
 


Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 05/19/2009 at 2:04pm
Great comments, but despite these things you've mentioned. How do you explain intermittent successes of European players.

Boll showed excellent performance in Qatar. Samsonov remains in #6 ( although not advancing, but he is not pushed lower )...

Most people on the top 20 are Asian origin, but there are great european players out there. Can't dismiss them as unskillful, even with their backhands and transitions, etc.


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Back to table tennis...


Posted By: Ciprian
Date Posted: 05/19/2009 at 3:36pm
If I don't mistake,Chinese learnt table tennis from Europeans.So the student beat his teacher.What else is needed it to beat chinese players? Another theacher!Big%20smile

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Xi Enting
FH-Aurus Sound
BH- Pryde 30


Posted By: ibupro
Date Posted: 05/19/2009 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Great comments, but despite these things you've mentioned. How do you explain intermittent successes of European players...


The Chinese have the best system, and have chosen the best general style, for consistently producing champion caliber players.
This is not the only way to win however, and so others will win also.

But don't forget that Boll adjusted to the speed glue ban better and more quickly than most of his peers.
We have yet to see what will be the new order of things.


Posted By: zrrbiteDK
Date Posted: 05/19/2009 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by yassermuslim yassermuslim wrote:

While watching this video, I was wondering what else is needed to beat Chinese. Is it skill, speed, tactics, fitness, power, concentration? I believe it's all there. However these two players are far in the ranking and always underdogs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABI85Y3A7fk - Click here



Re,


Off topic, but let me just say that... that was one of the most entertaining matches i've seen in a long long time. Wow!


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Current:

Avalox BT777 / ? / ?


Posted By: zwu168
Date Posted: 05/19/2009 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by zwu168 zwu168 wrote:

Style must be changed. Asians have agility but are not as strong as europeans. Why not capitalize on your strength like Wang Liqin. Since you cant move as fast as the chinese, hit hard like wang liqin


I think this is a common misconception; and hope the folks with a physics background will back me up.

Have you ever noticed that most professional TT players look more like runners than weightlifters?

The speed of the bat at impact (or sum of forces from foot, knee, hip, torso, shoulder, elbow and wrist) is what determines the force imparted to the ball.

It's the reason that burly 300 lb Scandanavians who routinely compete at "World's Strongest Man" competitions can't necessarily hit the ball faster than a 5'9 130 lb string bean.
Your example is bit of extreme but I only speak of asians and europeans in general. Europeans are significantly stronger, ever wonder why no Asians play american football? Even if this is a misconception, I can still refer to the style again. Europeans are into long, mid distance rallies while CHinese do full arm extension looping. I dont know why anyone would prolong the reallies when they can kill in 2-3 hits. Sure european style may be more appealing on TV but winning a game requires practicality. Oh i forgot to add that europeans is usually backhand dominant which i believe should be changed. Forehand allows for greater range of motion, which means you can get more momentum when you swing. Forehand is more flexible and poewr is transfered easily to the ball.


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OC WRB
FH: Hurricane 2
BH: CJ8000


Posted By: PongPong
Date Posted: 05/19/2009 at 9:12pm

If your government would fund tons of money for this sport to attract thousands of kids to play TT, if you can sacrifice your personal life dedicating tons of hours to practice, for sure you will have a chance to beat Chinese. The Chinese players are not another kind of animals, neither born good TT players.



Posted By: liXiao
Date Posted: 05/19/2009 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by zwu168 zwu168 wrote:

Style must be changed. Asians have agility but are not as strong as europeans. Why not capitalize on your strength like Wang Liqin. Since you cant move as fast as the chinese, hit hard like wang liqin


I think this is a common misconception; and hope the folks with a physics background will back me up.

Have you ever noticed that most professional TT players look more like runners than weightlifters?

The speed of the bat at impact (or sum of forces from foot, knee, hip, torso, shoulder, elbow and wrist) is what determines the force imparted to the ball.

It's the reason that burly 300 lb Scandanavians who routinely compete at "World's Strongest Man" competitions can't necessarily hit the ball faster than a 5'9 130 lb string bean.


Kenta Matsudaira weighs like 120 lbs lol. He is the thinnest athlete ever imo. Now in regards to Liqin vs. Schlager, Liqin's ball velocity was twice that of schlager's. Also note that schlager really seemed to dick around in that point and didnt really try to finish it, but Liqin was smart, got back, and made sure he got the point.


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Gewo Aruna Hinoki Carbon
Gewo Nexxus EL Pro 53 SuperSelect
Yinhe Qing


Posted By: 729 FX
Date Posted: 05/20/2009 at 5:09am
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Great comments, but despite these things you've mentioned. How do you explain intermittent successes of European players.

Boll showed excellent performance in Qatar. Samsonov remains in #6 ( although not advancing, but he is not pushed lower )...

Most people on the top 20 are Asian origin, but there are great european players out there. Can't dismiss them as unskillful, even with their backhands and transitions, etc.
 
In anything, there is bound to be some exception, that is teh "intermitten success" of European players. Boll, like Waldner went to China for training sometime back and acquire some knowledge and experience on how the Chinese approach the game. Therefore he is able to match the Chinese, but in team event his team will still come up 2nd (in my opinion) as there is no depth there. Can Samsonov climb to #1? Look at Ma Lin, 7 years ago where was he in TT world ranking and he has climbed to #1. Now I believe it is Wang Hao's turn to be #1.
 
BTW, I am not saying the European as unskill but just share a thought that the way the game progressed makes the European game more difficult to catch up with the Chinese.
 
No offense, Leshxa.
 
Cheers. 


Posted By: theman
Date Posted: 05/20/2009 at 7:07am
Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:

Originally posted by yassermuslim yassermuslim wrote:

While watching this video, I was wondering what else is needed to beat Chinese. Is it skill, speed, tactics, fitness, power, concentration? I believe it's all there. However these two players are far in the ranking and always underdogs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABI85Y3A7fk - Click here



Re,


Off topic, but let me just say that... that was one of the most entertaining matches i've seen in a long long time. Wow!


the long rallies i liked, even if there was no variation to them LOL


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i lost my racquet

Schlager u beast

http://www.youtube.com/MDSguy" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/MDSguy



Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 05/20/2009 at 9:15am
Originally posted by 729 FX 729 FX wrote:

 
No offense, Leshxa.
 


None taken. I like underdogs though. I think someday somebody from Europe may surprize the chinese again. Perhaps even startle them.

A man can dream, right? I dream for world of TT to be more competitive among more different world nations.

:)


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Back to table tennis...


Posted By: yassermuslim
Date Posted: 05/20/2009 at 5:19pm
We don't need to send players to china but coaches and officials. The later approach will enable us to build a better system and have more depth, don't you think so?
+
We need more resources to finance our game.


Posted By: Thylacine
Date Posted: 05/20/2009 at 5:26pm

Luck. You can beat a better player only with luck...



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Single Ply Hinoki club


Posted By: 729 FX
Date Posted: 05/20/2009 at 11:07pm
To sum up on what is needed to beat the Chinese - send players (for exposure) as well as coaches and officials. This will enable the nation to build a better system and have more depth + luck (as suggested by thylacine),
 
BTW, I also love the underdogs, not necessary from Europe, can be from the Americas, Asia, Australia or even Africa to match the Chinese.
 
 


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 05/21/2009 at 3:03am

 

 
I dont know where i read that the chinese have like 12 scientists working full time to table tennis research and US team that made phelps a star only has 2 scientists


Posted By: GBtabletennis
Date Posted: 05/21/2009 at 6:50am
Make a draw of every table tennis player their weakness points.

Some years ago, top 50 players did that. Waldner and Persson were the only one who has a empty draw. No weakness!

Waldner and Persson can beat Chinese players.. 10 years ago..=)

We need some fresh Waldners and Perssons, to beat the Chinese.


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Posted By: shortpips
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 10:33am
The same question could be ask in basketball, what else is needed to beat the NBA? and they start to answer the question by join the NBA.


Posted By: Recanter
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 12:11pm
The only way anyone is going to beat the Chinese is if the national team as a "whole" gets stronger. This has 2 main advantages.

1. Stronger training partners e.g. Malin training with WLQ and Ma Long and Hao Shuai etc...

2. More stronger players mean more chances at knocking the competition out of the major events: World Championships e.g. Michael Maze had to beat ... Wang Hao and then Hao Shuai and then Ma Lin AND then Wang Liqin! To win the world championships... (All Chinese)

I think Timo Boll recently beat 3 of them in a row in order to win some title.


In conclusion, the only chance would be for someone like... Waldner, Schlager or Persson, Timo Boll, Samsonov to open a school for all of Europe to come together and train against each other. Its gotta be like Europe vs China at this point. Waiting for individual prodigy's to wipe China out is unrealistic, since China has more people and therefore a greater probability of getting talent.

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Timo Boll ALC ST

FH: BTY Tenergy 64 2.1
BH: BTY EJ Max


Posted By: figgie
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 2:14pm
Just thought about this and a thought occured to me.
 What is needed to beat the Chinese?

Make table tennis as we know it today, OBSOLETE.
 
"How Figgie?" is what you are asking. Quite simple. Budweiser already has the answer and made thier move. Big money and bam, now you have people wanting a piece of that proverbial pie. And the $100,000 was just this time around, I would not be surprised to see $500,000 for next and probably climb to $1 Million dollars with the correct sponsors (I am talking Nike, Toyota, Addidas, Budweiser (yes I know again), Visa or MasterCard, etc etc) it is totaly doable.
 
And in one fell swoop, budweiser accomplished what the USATT could not do, bring big money, Marketing, exposure, and make the chinese dominance irrelevant as it becomes a different game.


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Speed glue, booster, tuner free since 2006!!!


Posted By: takaaki
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 2:45pm
what else is needed??  how about liu guoliang or kong linghui as your coach!!


Posted By: GBtabletennis
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 3:49pm
Maybe you need Waldner& Persson as coach + trainer.
Perhaps they could produce a 'European Robot' to beat the 'Chinese Robots'.

All factors of table tennis is need to beat the Chinese... But who can help you with it to do that?


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Posted By: ozjan
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 4:51pm
Watch and study video of Waldner, Gatien, and Schlager in their primes.  Something all the above players had in common was when they attacked, it was either very uncomfortable, unpredictable, powerful, or a combo of them all for the opponent.

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that's a rip!

Primorac Carbon
f:Tenergy 05 2.1
b:Tenergy 05 2.1


Posted By: takaaki
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 5:19pm
the chinese players are not robots!! 

but even if they were, nobody in europe can produce a "european robot" that's good enough to beat the chinese ones.  the chinese players are the best cuz they are produced by the best system in the world.

there is no system in europe at this time good enough to produce champions, so if a champion does come up from there, it's a total miracle!!

so, the best that you can do is just to pray for a miracle.  that's the only way it's gonna happen...

the chinese are just simply better funded and better trained than any other team in the world. 

that said, i think the japanese are moving up and they may rival the chinese very soon, IF they make the right moves training-wise. mizutani, kishikawa and even little niwa definitely have some potential.

but as far as europe is concerned, forget about it!!  waldner and persson were the last great players of europe and, with his back issues, timo boll will never be 100% again, so europe is pretty much finished. 

ovtcharov, i think, is playing the best he will ever play and vladi looks as though the chinese have pretty much beaten out all the fight outta him that he used to have.

boll, ovtcharov and vladi will stay in the top-20 for a while, but as for the rest of those top-20 european players, i predict they will all drop out of the top-20 sometime in the next 2 years and there will be nobody from europe to replace them.


Posted By: takaaki
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by ozjan ozjan wrote:

Watch and study video of Waldner, Gatien, and Schlager in their primes.  Something all the above players had in common was when they attacked, it was either very uncomfortable, unpredictable, powerful, or a combo of them all for the opponent.


that's not gonna work either.  the game has changed.

players now are much, much better than they have ever been before.

that's the problem--you guys are looking at the wrong players.

you are looking at the great players of yesteryear.  to learn how to play best at today's game you should be looking at the best players of today, which, of course, are the chinese. 

like the saying goes: if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!!


Posted By: le xex
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 6:23pm
make the chinese stop using illegal tuning oil, then at least we can begin to have a better analysis 


Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 8:37pm
Alot of the european players just take whatever shot is given to them. If a ball is directed to the backhand, they do backhand. Rarely will they try to get to a forehand like the chinese do. Schlager is an example of this, he uses his backhand loop to rally and stays on it, but it's not powerful or effective against a forehand.


Posted By: isharestuff
Date Posted: 06/30/2009 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by wealthweb wealthweb wrote:

To beat the Chinese is not easy at all. A guy from China told me that during training he was asked by his coach to practice the same serve several hundred times within the same period of time before he is permitted to do new tricks. Are we ready for that kind of drill and discipline? The Chinese coaches are not satisfied in just breeding good players; they want to create terminators and bull-dozers which will eliminate anything that stands on their way. European style is straight forward and forceful. Chinese style is LING HOW (meaning FLEXIBLE TRICKY). European players focuses on strength. Chinese players focuses on Ying Yang Balance.


Well said. I heard it's thousands strokes per day. Like any other sports, to achieve something called "muscle memory" (?). Meaning you don't even have to think how to, but your muscle will do it for you.

As for the style, totally agree with you. European style is almost like boxing, forceful, fast and efficient. While Chinese is like, Shaolin kungfu? LOL

Seriously am no joking, look at Wang Hao RPB, it's almost like what Chinese always read in their kungfu novel, an assasaint executes his deadly technique, the poison needle! And Ma Lin is like cruel swordman, fast and sharp! Liu Guoliang is like the weird dude who uses a weapon that people have no glue fighting with. Kong! He surely playing Taichi! LOL

Seriously, if Timo could beat Chinese, the rest of them can, too. Modern game now requires players to be more efficient, faster, powerful, of course mentality improvement too. So far China shows us they can do better.


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Blade: broke
FH: burnt
BH: dusty


Posted By: takaaki
Date Posted: 07/01/2009 at 10:25am
Originally posted by le xex le xex wrote:

make the chinese stop using illegal tuning oil, then at least we can begin to have a better analysis 


hahahahaha!!

do you honestly believe the chinese are winning cuz of that???

if that's the case, then the europeans are really stupid, cuz all they gotta do is go and buy a coupla bottles of haifu oil @ some tt store.  it's VOC-free so the enez can't detect it.  y'know, i think alexli sells it at the mytt store, so maybe they should go to him...  maybe somebody here should send boll, or ovcharov, or maze, or schlager, or whoever an e-mail letting them know that the mytt store has the "secret" ingredient that's gonna finally put them over the edge after all these years!!  cuz without it, they have absolutely no chance of winning!!


Posted By: xiehy0325
Date Posted: 09/23/2009 at 11:38pm

more and more thing need to do !



Posted By: Cyrilix
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 2:16am
Originally posted by xiehy0325 xiehy0325 wrote:

more and more thing need to do !



Say what?


Posted By: dimist
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 6:58am
Originally posted by 729 FX 729 FX wrote:

 
Let's analyse the European style of play. In my opinion, Europe is paying the price for two mistakes:
1) laziness at work

2) the backhand stroke play

 


I agree 100%, i think backhand is the basic reason and the number of players is the second reason.
Laziness came from the use of bacjhand


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Blade: CORBEL BUTTERFLY
FH�: TENERGY 05
BH: ROXON 450


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 8:38am
It's the Forehand, Silly!

The Chinese system has produced a forehand that can end points through consistent power.

The European forehand does not compare.

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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42


Posted By: dragon kid
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 9:00am
What we need is a new technology blade. We must make a new blade with hollow handle, then we put a state of the art weapon technology in it to shoot out a small dart with drugs just enough to make a human being lost a part of their consciousness.
We must arm all non Chinese player with this new technology blade and have them shoot the dart to their Chinese opponent to drug them during the match so they will be easily defeated.. Approve



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655H3PClassicAcudaS1
'Nobody is Perfect. I am Nobody'


Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 9:47am
Originally posted by dimist dimist wrote:

Originally posted by 729 FX 729 FX wrote:

 
Let's analyse the European style of play. In my opinion, Europe is paying the price for two mistakes:
1) laziness at work

2) the backhand stroke play

 


I agree 100%, i think backhand is the basic reason and the number of players is the second reason.
Laziness came from the use of bacjhand


Disagree 100%.

Why does everyone think that shakehand backhand is a disadvantage? Its not a disadvantage. If you read many books on table tennis and listen to interviews or read commentaries from most world class European players - they emphasize that their biggest wins were caused by an improved backhand - something they had to work really hard to achieve.

Waldner is a prime example. He drove the backhand into play and the whole swedish team picked up on it. Maze is talking about his backhand being one of the major reasons for him to be able to defeat other players in his interview from 2009 European championship.

Its not the backhand, its the type of the backhand! I don't think anyone is developing new way of using their backhand - if you look at how people are using it at the pro circuit - its merely a way to keep the ball on the table and very few use it as an offensive weapon.

I do agree that european players base their game on spin more than chinese players and don't have sufficient power in their loop drives, but that is a mere tradition. If you want to see tradition being altered in front of you, take a look at Patrick Baum's games. He's got a power loop to wish for, he also is a maniac with his backhand. He'll come up with more force once he gets a bit more experience.

Speaking of lazyness, there is no such thing! Europe does not have such a fine tuned machine to train table tennis superstars as China does - and that cannot be called "laziness".


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Back to table tennis...


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 10:07am
Well, lets see.  What advantages does china enjoy?
 
It is one of if not the most popular sport.  In the west it is way down the list.  This is changing not in the west but in China.  They want to play tennis, basketball, soccer, etc.  Eventually the resources and interest for TT will diminish I think.
 
They have a population of 1.5 billion or whatever it is to draw on. When you have a quarter of the earth's population, you have a quarter of their athletes.
 
They seem to be willing to route their kids and specialize them earlier in life.  As I understand it, they are willing to pull kids into camps at like age 6 and this becomes their job.  Discipline is probably absolute. This is not something we seem to want to do in the west.  Not saying it's good or bad.  But I wonder what becomes of the majority of players who DON'T make it to the top of the system.  Have they been taught to read and write adequately?  Or do they get like a military retirement like stipend and then they are forced to work yucky jobs if they can't make it as a TT coach or whatever?  This is not just TT.  Look at the world's reaction to the female olympic gymnasts and their ages.
 
I don't claim to be an expert in China.  Don't speak it.  Never been there.  If my impressions are incorrect, feel free to tell me.  This is just my musings as I percieve the situation.


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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 10:24am
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Well, lets see.  What advantages does china enjoy?
 
It is one of if not the most popular sport.  In the west it is way down the list.  This is changing not in the west but in China.  They want to play tennis, basketball, soccer, etc.  Eventually the resources and interest for TT will diminish I think.
 
They have a population of 1.5 billion or whatever it is to draw on. When you have a quarter of the earth's population, you have a quarter of their athletes.
 
They seem to be willing to route their kids and specialize them earlier in life.  As I understand it, they are willing to pull kids into camps at like age 6 and this becomes their job.  Discipline is probably absolute. This is not something we seem to want to do in the west.  Not saying it's good or bad.  But I wonder what becomes of the majority of players who DON'T make it to the top of the system.  Have they been taught to read and write adequately?  Or do they get like a military retirement like stipend and then they are forced to work yucky jobs if they can't make it as a TT coach or whatever?  This is not just TT.  Look at the world's reaction to the female olympic gymnasts and their ages.
 
I don't claim to be an expert in China.  Don't speak it.  Never been there.  If my impressions are incorrect, feel free to tell me.  This is just my musings as I percieve the situation.


Perfect post cole_ely!

I was born in Ukraine and I am very well exposed to socialist structure. My mother was a gymnast - acrobat and trampoline jumper and I have been going to "athlete camps" for children - organized to train kids for their specialties.

Such camps consisted of about 500 kids and had tons of trainers and coaches. The duration 2 months. Throughout 2 months, it was nothing but work 6 hours a day on things and then have fun on weekends and evenings. It was filled with excruciating workouts....

Now this is Ukraine or USSR as it was back then. The trend was to produce athletes and bring out talent. Those who did well - became great. Those who got hurt or too old in the process - became trainers full time on government pay. Many bailed over the years to start their private lives, but this process was ongoing.

Lots have changed since then, but one thing remains - China still "governs" its athlete system. They scout, recruit and build athletic machines - this is again proven by China's restriction to date!!!! They might as well neuter for gold medals - ridiculous.

So the point is that as long as China remains focused on dominance in TT arena, they will always be a step ahead. Why???? Because as european players get old and still play, China substitutes established players by new 18-20 year old stars that were in "development" hidden from everyone's eyes like a secret weapon.

Europe simply cannot churn out champions as quickly.....


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Back to table tennis...


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 10:43am
Is Leshxa your real name, and if so how do you pronounce it?

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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 11:23am
My name is Alex. Short for Alexei, which in russian is sometimes pronounced as "Lesha", xa instead of a on the end is for uniqueness :) 

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Back to table tennis...


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Well, lets see.  What advantages does china enjoy?
 
It is one of if not the most popular sport.  In the west it is way down the list.  This is changing not in the west but in China.  They want to play tennis, basketball, soccer, etc.  Eventually the resources and interest for TT will diminish I think.
 
They have a population of 1.5 billion or whatever it is to draw on. When you have a quarter of the earth's population, you have a quarter of their athletes.
 
They seem to be willing to route their kids and specialize them earlier in life.  As I understand it, they are willing to pull kids into camps at like age 6 and this becomes their job.  Discipline is probably absolute. This is not something we seem to want to do in the west.  Not saying it's good or bad.  But I wonder what becomes of the majority of players who DON'T make it to the top of the system.  Have they been taught to read and write adequately?  Or do they get like a military retirement like stipend and then they are forced to work yucky jobs if they can't make it as a TT coach or whatever?  This is not just TT.  Look at the world's reaction to the female olympic gymnasts and their ages.
 
I don't claim to be an expert in China.  Don't speak it.  Never been there.  If my impressions are incorrect, feel free to tell me.  This is just my musings as I percieve the situation.


Perfect post cole_ely!

I was born in Ukraine and I am very well exposed to socialist structure. My mother was a gymnast - acrobat and trampoline jumper and I have been going to "athlete camps" for children - organized to train kids for their specialties.

Such camps consisted of about 500 kids and had tons of trainers and coaches. The duration 2 months. Throughout 2 months, it was nothing but work 6 hours a day on things and then have fun on weekends and evenings. It was filled with excruciating workouts....

Now this is Ukraine or USSR as it was back then. The trend was to produce athletes and bring out talent. Those who did well - became great. Those who got hurt or too old in the process - became trainers full time on government pay. Many bailed over the years to start their private lives, but this process was ongoing.

Lots have changed since then, but one thing remains - China still "governs" its athlete system. They scout, recruit and build athletic machines - this is again proven by China's restriction to date!!!! They might as well neuter for gold medals - ridiculous.

So the point is that as long as China remains focused on dominance in TT arena, they will always be a step ahead. Why???? Because as european players get old and still play, China substitutes established players by new 18-20 year old stars that were in "development" hidden from everyone's eyes like a secret weapon.

Europe simply cannot churn out champions as quickly.....

One word LEFTIES Wink

I believe discipline and training is not the only reason. I think Chinese found the better way to play tt, and the rest of the world still played tt like playing tennis. Go back to the old USSR, did they win everything?


Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 1:21pm
When it was USSR, they got a lot more results in sports. Now, every republic on its own and funding is a big issue. No more government programs. Well, they are there, but much more limited in size.




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Back to table tennis...


Posted By: melarimsa
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 1:36pm
Yeah, in OLD socialism or some communism countries they used to put a lot in sport. Now, when everybody want democracy and capitalism, that is gone ...

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Posted By: ppmax
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 3:04pm
Strategically position a few hot girls with generous cleavage.


Posted By: dabookerman
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 3:39pm
That might also help the attendance and viewership of TT matches, too!  LOL

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Photino FL

Yasaka Rising Dragon

Short Pips





Posted By: ocvillager
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 3:42pm

shame on chinese government. A beautiful country with beautiful culture are over taken by a dictate government who always to play cheap even in international trades. They cheated in sport (olympic gymnast by reducing their age) ...cheap shot.



Posted By: traineebeing
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 4:07pm
Mass destruction weapons?


Posted By: jkillashark
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 6:35pm
Korean hanbang forehand

Worked in Athens 2004 for Ryu =]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2tMm-QtJOk


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Butterfly Viscaria FL
FH: Black DHS Neo Hurricane 3 Blue Sponge National
BH: Red Butterfly Tenergy 80

Footwork and forehand is always the answer.


Posted By: Thylacine
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 6:40pm
Yeah jkillashark gave the best answer. The only way to beat the chinese is if you are Korean and a penholder. Chinese have much to learn from the Koreans about the hanbang ping pong. More Korean hanbangers = less medals for the Chinese. Smile

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Single Ply Hinoki club


Posted By: theman
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

When it was USSR, they got a lot more results in sports. Now, every republic on its own and funding is a big issue. No more government programs. Well, they are there, but much more limited in size.




we need to go back to Ivan Drago in Rocky IV!!!!!


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i lost my racquet

Schlager u beast

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Posted By: 729 FX
Date Posted: 09/24/2009 at 11:49pm

I disagree with jkillashark comment on the Korean. RSM winning is just a "flash in the pan" and I would rate the Japanese in the next 3-5 years as a powerhouse that can rivalled the Chinese.



Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 2:17am
Originally posted by 729 FX 729 FX wrote:

I disagree with jkillashark comment on the Korean. RSM winning is just a "flash in the pan" and I would rate the Japanese in the next 3-5 years as a powerhouse that can rivalled the Chinese.

 
i dont think the japanese will be a major force, history shows that they shine until they are 18 like fukuhara,sakamoto a briefs moments of glory a japanese friend told me that they dont care about table tennis compared to other sports.
 
like kenta , tasaki almost beat wang tao in 1995 , beat the saive bros in 1993 and then fade away the same goes for women, umemura has done nothin,konishi same thing............getting chinese players representing japan has done a lot of damage in japan...one thing is having a flash of greatness but keeping at the top is diffrent


Posted By: fortran2003
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 3:25am
Maybe Germany and Japan can challange China in next few years.
Wang Liqin and Ma lin will leave Chinese national team soon.


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 4:30am
Originally posted by fortran2003 fortran2003 wrote:

Maybe Germany and Japan can challange China in next few years.
Wang Liqin and Ma lin will leave Chinese national team soon.
 
 
 
france,germany and rusia


Posted By: Thylacine
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 4:54am

Japan is nowhere near to being a threat for the Chinese dominance. Yeah, hopes are high that some of the younger japanese players can win a medal. I don't believe it though - neither Mizutani, nor Kenta  could beat the best chinese players.  Some people say Germany?! Come on do you think that Ovtcharov or Suss could win a medal from Olympic Games or World Championships? Boll already proved he can't. We'll see in the next 3-4 years. Till then the Korean hanbang forehand is the only trustworthy and tested weapon of chinese destruction and it's not only Ryu as someone said. RSM hasn't won about 20 medals at WC and OG. LOL



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Single Ply Hinoki club


Posted By: Cyrilix
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 5:10am
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

They have a population of 1.5 billion or whatever it is to draw on. When you have a quarter of the earth's population, you have a quarter of their athletes.


You couldn't be more misinformed. You think Chinese kids have as much opportunity as kids here, when it comes to education and extra-curricular activities? FAR FROM IT.

I was born in China, by the way. I know. Back in my parents day, things were a lot different. Schooling was tough, as it is now (especially stressful as you take the national exams after highschool), and universities were very socialized, with shared rooms for many many people, and sort of a "everyone come around to dinner in the cafeteria" type of socialized experience. Things have come a long way, and there are more freedoms in many aspects of everyday life, however, all it takes is visiting China and not just for the tourist traps to see that the landscape is far from being as prosperous as it is here. The middle-class (actually a misnomer, since they're more like upper class) are becoming a more and more significant part of the population, and it's really these guys that have the best opportunities when it comes to extra-curricular activities.

Also, look at the United States. They have very sophisticated sports programs, and people that live in the United States are relatively, far wealthier with more opportunity. That is why they can produce so many good athletes, given that their population is 1/4 that of China.

Quote
They seem to be willing to route their kids and specialize them earlier in life.  As I understand it, they are willing to pull kids into camps at like age 6 and this becomes their job.  Discipline is probably absolute. This is not something we seem to want to do in the west.  Not saying it's good or bad.  But I wonder what becomes of the majority of players who DON'T make it to the top of the system.  Have they been taught to read and write adequately?  Or do they get like a military retirement like stipend and then they are forced to work yucky jobs if they can't make it as a TT coach or whatever?  This is not just TT.  Look at the world's reaction to the female olympic gymnasts and their ages.


Do you have any actual evidence of wrongdoing? Even any anecdotal stories to tell where x person was sent to y camp for intense training, hated the sport / didn't perform well, and came back home for a spanking? There most certainly exist these types, and more likely the more skilled and promising you are, but how you manage to classify this as a Chinese tendency is astounding.
 
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I don't claim to be an expert in China.  Don't speak it.  Never been there.  If my impressions are incorrect, feel free to tell me.  This is just my musings as I percieve the situation.


Alright, look. Here's the deal. I hate it when people who think they know China start talking about it like everywhere it's boot camp. It's not. Other than that, anything goes. If you have an opinion, that's great.

Some of the things I believe help them dominate in table tennis are:
- more regulated national training (You must perform, and in doing so, do a service for the country that gives you these opportunities.)
- much more internal competition (You don't want to work for that medal? Do you know that someone else would like to take your place?)
- a strong table tennis background and culture

I don't know, but I'm willing to bet that a significant number of people that don't make it to the top, either continue to strive for the top, or help others closer to the top in achieving their goals. You don't often see people below those levels for many reasons (one being that China likes to promote their best image -- Chinese people are like that -- and the other being that there is simply not enough room on the team to give each and everyone an exquisite international experience).



Posted By: fortran2003
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 5:24am
I am a Chinese and I really think Boll,Maze and Ovtcharov are as good as Ma lin ,Wang Liqin and Ma long, at lease in world cup.

Chinese players are a little more stable or better when facing "dark horse" or unfamiliar players, this is a very important reason of their having got more medals in Olympic and the World Tournament.


Posted By: dragon kid
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 5:26am
Originally posted by ppmax ppmax wrote:

Strategically position a few hot girls with generous cleavage.


This plan has a flaw..
In order for it to work, you need gay players to play against the Chinese.. LOL


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655H3PClassicAcudaS1
'Nobody is Perfect. I am Nobody'


Posted By: TT_Freak
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 5:29am
Take the ball early and drive it into the corners deep deep deep every time, and force the Chinese player on the defensive. Either that or hit it as hard as you can and hope it goes in.

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Violin
F1
Actor

10g at 3 and 9
10g at 12
20g at the end of handle


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 5:41am
Originally posted by Cyrilix Cyrilix wrote:


- a strong table tennis background and culture


 
 Next time, why don't you save yourself time and just write the bit that matters?


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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: Imzadim
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 5:44am
European style is just as effective as Chinese style.

Changing the way they play wouldn't help *at all*. In fact each style fits player's bodies better. E.g: close to the table, faster arm movement and quick reaction fits the asian physic. Slower acceleration, more body power and larger body size fits the European style.

Why Chinese capitalize on the sport? Because there are many of them and not anywhere in the world TT is as popular as in China.

Think it this way. If Chinese played the European way and European played the Chinese way, China would still be kicking everybody's asses.



Posted By: fortran2003
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 5:44am
As I know, some Chinese parent send their kids to camp , after several mouths , coachs may give suggestiones to very few of them to continue trainning, those parents and kids will accept or not.
as to other kids, just give up their dreams to be a world champ, then pingpang is only a kind of entertainment.
Chinese parents are not fools, they know How hard to become a Malin or WLQ for their boy.


Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 8:14am
Originally posted by fortran2003 fortran2003 wrote:

As I know, some Chinese parent send their kids to camp , after several mouths , coachs may give suggestiones to very few of them to continue trainning, those parents and kids will accept or not.
as to other kids, just give up their dreams to be a world champ, then pingpang is only a kind of entertainment.
Chinese parents are not fools, they know How hard to become a Malin or WLQ for their boy.



True, but becoming great is a ticket to good life, however hard the road may be. I mean look at most NBA players. Most have incredible stories to tell in how they got where they did. Same for baseball, football, etc. For a lot of athletes, sports were a ticket out from their otherwise failed lives.

One of the reasons parents would choose to close their eyes on hard work, especially if the kid displays great talent.




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Back to table tennis...


Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 09/25/2009 at 8:15am
Originally posted by Imzadim Imzadim wrote:

European style is just as effective as Chinese style.

Changing the way they play wouldn't help *at all*. In fact each style fits player's bodies better. E.g: close to the table, faster arm movement and quick reaction fits the asian physic. Slower acceleration, more body power and larger body size fits the European style.

Why Chinese capitalize on the sport? Because there are many of them and not anywhere in the world TT is as popular as in China.

Think it this way. If Chinese played the European way and European played the Chinese way, China would still be kicking everybody's asses.



Very good response!

This is so true. That's why you don't see a dominating Chinese football or basketball teams.


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Back to table tennis...



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