The great China vs Euro loop myth
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Topic: The great China vs Euro loop myth
Posted By: APW46
Subject: The great China vs Euro loop myth
Date Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:25pm
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I just can't get away from this one, however much I think about it I just feel that the differences between the two perceived styles is so close, yet they are discussed in length on these forums as if they were chalk and cheese. There is also a massive overlap, some European players play with a 'Chinese style' and some Chinese play with a 'European style' yet time and time again we read post by members who are developing one or the other as if it were the difference between dark and light. We always end up with some kind of debate as to which one is superior, but there are advantages and disadvantages to both of the very slight variations. Anyone thought of going right down the middle? ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Replies:
Posted By: Tinykin_2
Date Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:41pm
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But the debates give us something to talk about. So go away with your common sense, it ruins the fun. ------------- Member of Single Ply Club. Shakehand, Kauri wood by American Hinoki, 1-ply 7mm. FH> Gambler Reflectoid. BH> Yasaka Mark V |
Posted By: mil
Date Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:46pm
| You can not go down the middle. You can play it the european way if you are under time pressure and in the chinese way when the time allows it. Supposing you have got a rubber which allows both styles. |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:47pm
| EDIT: Actually I think that with chinese rubbers, it is more able to do both styles of loops. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:55pm
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I think you are missing the point guys. I am not really analyzing the differences between the two at the top of the game, more the choice players who are never gonna make that standard make, you get it all the time.... '' I'm developing a Chinese/Euro F/hand'' WHAT? what I'm saying is, just develop your own loop, taking in what is best for YOU! ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:56pm
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
kenneyy88 wrote:Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 01/03/2011 at 7:06pm
You have much to learn young APW...it is the equipment which plays the shot, not the player.
 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/03/2011 at 7:09pm
 ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: mil
Date Posted: 01/03/2011 at 7:18pm
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Of course everybody should develop his own loop. But there is no ideal forehand loop. And you have to follow some methodology. I have both a powerful loop and use my wrist well on forehand loops (but have problems with wrist and BH loops). There are players who play FH loop completely without wrist and still they play great loops. |
Posted By: Krantz
Date Posted: 01/03/2011 at 7:30pm
Yeah! We talk about it because its interesting! My current approximation to the problem is that the "chinese way" requires from you to start your swing with a straight arm; what you do next depends on the situation and your particular style, but without the straight arm part - they say - you're doing it wrong. Europeans are perfectly happy with bent arm backswing - and forward swing too for that matter. Which method is "better" is open to debate (even more
 ), but if i would have to chose my mentor (thats something all developing players should strongly consider to do - and we all are developing players  ) then i would take a Chinese - they provide some reasoning to support their recommendations, while i've seen none after "bent arm" method ("there are good players using it" or "you can do it this way too" doesn’t count for me  ). |
Posted By: sebas-aguirre
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 12:36am
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the myth is that there is a "chinese" type of loop and an "european" type of loop. there is only one kind of loop. the loop that throws rockets to destroy your opponent. this kind of loop is achieved with different movements depending on the rubber you are using. most chinese national players use rubbers like h2, h3 so their loops will be similar. similar to any player who is using h2 or h3. but players using thor's, apollo, whale II won't do that same loop because it won't work with those rubbers. these mentioned rubbers share some characteristics with dhs rubbers so the stroke won't be "that" different. on the other end you have a rubber like tenergy or hexer. but I repeat, the stroke is not chinese or european, it is more based on the particular rubber you use. what is my preference? at this point tuned h3 neo, but I've been through whale II, bryce, tenergy.... the problem with dhs rubbers is that you can only use them tuned, otherwise they are among the crappiest rubbers you'll find out there. |
Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 1:01am
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Other than some europeans keeping their arm bent all the time through the backstroke, which is something I've never seen a chinese player do, it's really more just their own loops anyway. The straight vs bent thing is just a generalization, but other than that there isn't much. I've heard so many different things from so many different people that I really think it's a bunch of bull. Because you see chinese players doing bent arm loops, and european players doing full arm kills, they break the generalization. There are different strokes for different situations. At our level, the general idea of a loop stroke is all that really matters. It works. So whatever. Everyone just overanalyzes it a lot.
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Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 2:20am
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The only thing you can control is the speed, attitude and direction of the paddle at the moment of contact. It doesn't make ANY DIFFERENCE what happened before or after the ball leaves the paddle 2-4 milliseconds. Convex, concave, straight arm or chicken wing, it makes no difference if you are standing on your head or just throwing the paddle and happen to hit the ball just right. If the speed,attitude and direction of the paddle are the same at contact the result will be the same if the balls direction, speed and spin are the same. What is all boils down to is the paddle imparts an impulse ( force times dwell time ) on the ball. This impulse has a magnitude and direction. If the impulse is the same then the ball will respond respond in the same way given it has the same speed, direction, and spin. All this talk about speed, throw and spin really boils down to the magnitude and direction of the impulse. TT is still subject to the laws of physics. How is that for sucking the fun out of an argument? In a moment of letting my brain run in neutral I got sucked in to that convex/concave argument many months back. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: Jeff(ATTC)
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 2:26am
I agree. I think it's better to use a loop that works for the individual rather than trying to go one way or another, or trying to copy a pro's stroke. I find that too much time is spent trying to look a certain way rather than making sure that the mechanics of the stoke actually produce a good ball. ------------- Bty Jun Mizutani ZLC FH: D80 BH: D05 |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 2:41am
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The matter at hand is analogous to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loanword - loanword in linguistics. The term loop we have come to know nowadays was in fact "invented" by the Japanese in the 60's along with the appearance of inverted rubber. Hungarian was among the first to master it and Swedish merged it with traditional fast attack of the Chinese(referred to as 弧圈結合快攻/快攻結合弧圈 or looping(primary) combined with fast-attack(secondary) and vice versa) to pioneer a new era that saw them conquer the top spot. The Chinese, facing an inevitable downfall, made some abrupt, hasty, and griveous attempts at producing penhold loopers at the great expense of rendering top pips hitters of the time as hitting partners. It was not until Kong Linghui's return to his home country with him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loanword#Reborrowing - reborrowing the European http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kong_Linghui - two-wing shakehand looping style and his ultimate success at the '95 WTTC that saw the dawn of China's comeback in the arena. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: vali
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 3:56am
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The BENT ARM is not enough to distinguish between those 2 loops (euro - chinese). Kreanga, Schlager,Waldner are not bending arms. And even Liqin was bending his arm when was young. Bending the arm maybe related with the height of the player and the longer segments of the body. A smaller player (Kreanga and the most of the chinese) can afford to use the whole arm without losing timing and recovery. There is no difference between euro and chinese loop. ------------- Clipper FH: XIOM Vega Asia , max BH: Yasaka RAKZA7, 2.0 |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:03am
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A loop is loop , I was using Neo3 in the weekend and I usualy use Rakza I didn't change my arm , I might have made a angle change but I didn't go all straight arm lol.
This tread isn't about who invented it and what the pros do its about what we do and there are many members here who switch from chinese rubbers, to tuned chinese rubbers,to tensors, to tenergies to the latest new products and I doubt you change to a whole different approach to your loops we hit the ball because thats our style ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:28am
Well said Smackman. I also agree with Vali's general idea. In particular there is no one definitive European loop. Amongst the different types are the hideous chicken-wing loop of players like Boll and Maze (and even the non-euro Mizutani); then there is Schlagers; then Kreanga's; and then others are different again.
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Posted By: vali
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:34am
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Yeap, Boll and Maze are strong northern , germanic , viking players with enough power from the wrist to generate spin and speed. They do not need to use the whole arm for the loop.  ------------- Clipper FH: XIOM Vega Asia , max BH: Yasaka RAKZA7, 2.0 |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:48am
Stop making excuses for them: their 'loops' are abominations.
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Posted By: DaHobbit
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:50am
WROOOOOOONG!! Boll is just fat so it is easy to produce topspin for him. ------------- Zhang Jike and Li Ping and Ma Long fan! Blade: Xiom Fuga FL FH: DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2 BH: Donic Coppa JO Gold 2.0 |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:54am
Define loop then. It is my impression that this whole myth on loop takes root due to the general public's lack of understanding of and to an extent ignorance about its origin and development it has gone through. What the pros do would ultimately be what the general public imitates and follows since they get the most exposure and coverage. It is the same with every day commodities you and I are so familiar with that we tend to forget that some were once aerospace and/or military technology and classified top secrets(e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge-coupled_device - CCDs so commonly used in today's digital camera.) This is partly where the ITTF(not just Adham) fails to comprehend, with all the new regulations and rule changes(some good, some bad, some outright ugly) ever since the millennium. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: nicefrog
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 5:01am
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How about this, most Chinese players use a very full swing and a elliptical shaped arm return (which is the only efficient way to return from a full swing). Most European players don't swing that far and return the arm almost down the same path it came. Of course during a game a lot of people use both types of loop depending on where you are on the court and where the ball is. If you grew up with a dead sponged Chinese rubber you will naturally use a more full swing than if you grew up with a relatively fast and efficient European/Japanese rubber. In the end all that matters is the speed you can get the blade to by the time it hits the ball and how fast you can return for another one so long as you have those two things sorted it doesn't matter how it looks ------------- |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 6:47am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91z2nZ2JaxQ&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91z2nZ2JaxQ&feature=related ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Vladovich
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 6:59am
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhaa Or maybe he uses "fat plies"... For others, if they missed it, topics from our vast knowledge database on this forum: Debate on fat guys produce more spin: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38344&PID=472094 - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38344&PID=472094 Fat plies produce more spin: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38385&PID=472568&title=fat-plies-produce-more-spin - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38385&PID=472568&title=fat-plies-produce-more-spin ------------- Tibhar Defense Plus FH: Joola Phenix BH: Dr. Neubauer Bison 1.5mm "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be…unnatural." |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 7:10am
Generally anyone who do NOT find it prickling reading this thread.
I am afraid you are missing the point here. I wrote "The Chinese[referring to pips hitter style at that time], facing an inevitable downfall, made some abrupt, hasty, and griveous attempts at producing penhold loopers at the great expense of rendering top pips hitters of the time as hitting partners." ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 7:37am
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'attempts' suggests they failed, Kuo was not a failure, he was the undisputed world number one for a number of years. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 7:57am
Now we are up for a dictionary challenge.
Before I hit submit, is it just me or is this thread "the great China vs Euro loop myth" comparing among shakehanders or with penholders mixed in? ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 8:09am
| I'm actually not clear what point zeio is 'attempting' to make. I'm also not sure when the top pips hitters were supposedly reduced to hitting partners. Pip hitters were a staple of the Chinese team from the very early days until at least 1989. There were frequently 2 and sometimes 3 pip-hitters in the team. Towards the end of the 80's they started to get beaten and so understandably new Chinese playing styles became more prominent. Even so, Liu GuoLiang still did ok. |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 8:18am
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I really don't like these discussions on the forum because there are too many "brilliant" amateurs looking at equipment when stroke technique is at question..... I wish there was a way to moderate a thread there any mention of equipment in a non-equipment thread would be removed. This thread, as far as I understand, is a question of technique. Here is my 2 cents regarding this topic ( yes unfortunately only 2 cents worth ). Loop is loop - meaning its attacking the ball with spin. So what exactly is a difference in a loop stroke in many different world class levels and which one is better... European loops are generally more focused on spin and taking the ball after the top of the bounce. The training in european level is not brought to the chinese level of robotic human automation of biomechanical movements. So the European players have a lot more freedom to have their own technique and style of the loop. Does that make any loop better or not? If you look at simply a loop in training - the answer is No! The only loop that is better in training is the one that is more consistent which depends on individual and their talents. Now lets take a loop during the game. What most people see in a stroke and hence mark it as "chinese loop" is mostly the transition of the ready position to backswing to finishing position. Yes, this motion is a signature motion. Every single Chinese player has this worked out so well that they don't deviate from this motion by more than a centimeter. Its amazing. They are superb at this as they have been in a repeat cycles for years!!! Comparing this motion with European "freestyle" which is not strict, very personalized action built over the top of the players strength - hence looking ( and only looking ) like a technically weaker stroke. Regarding power input ( if you think in terms of equipment, better to just not read this section because the power here is the coefficient of energy of the players stroke - without the paddle ). Chinese players are very honest with themselves and they recognize that they can never match the power of European players, who are physiologically larger and hence stronger. This does not mean that they have no power. They are strong and do have world class power capable of winning points outright, but in this game, strength is not the key. So the Chinese players aim and train to achieve speed superiority - taking the ball earlier off the bounce. Note that the technique of the strokes to take the ball earlier off the bounce is exactly the same as their "regular" loop technique. So, you see that Chinese players have developed technique that can be applied against wider range of incoming shots.... ( or do they??? There is an exception to the "wide range of shots", which I'll mention later ). In comparison, European players constantly seem to adapt their stroke to incoming shot. However, since European players take the ball generally after the top of the bounce ( and most often a lot later when the ball is dropping to the floor ), you see that European players have no choice but to "adapt". So if you put Chinese apply it to "all" incoming shots loop against the European "adapt" and "choose contact time" technique, the European is technically a lot more susceptible to unforced errors. The use of wrist. The clear difference in European and Chinese loops is the use of wrist. The Europeans aim to achieve greater spin using their power input capabilities, while Chinese aim to achieve greater speed with very strong spin. In order to achieve this with European style, the wrist is dropped a lot lower almost looking like the arm is flapping - the chicken arm look, but this also helps because it opens up the face of the blade to contact the ball after the bounce ( the bounce can be unpredictable with strong spin ) and since the ball is taken after the top of the bounce, this becomes the full pledge technique of the European loop. For Chinese loop, the wrist stays a lot more open all the time, as the time of the contact and the power input is what drives consistency. Essentially all the years of training mastering this technique goes to work like a well oiled and fueled machine. What is amazing is in that stroke, the Chinese players have their wrist open, however still are able to contact the top of the ball - which is amazing because to do so, you need incredible training. This shot is VERY difficult to do against all kinds of incoming balls. The timing for this shot to work must be perfect! However, Chinese training develops players that master this with quite an ease. So, if you have been patient and read what I wrote, I will summarize. The difference among these loops is training, timing, contact point, and speed/power input ratios. Which one is bettter? Well, none. Loop itself does not win points. What does win points is consistency, consistency against varied incoming ball ( varied in terms of spin and speed ). What wins games in other technical strengths such as serve, 3rd ball, placement, footwork, etc. So can one player possess technique for both of these - certainly, only question is what for? Every player has their own strengths that empower their own technique, so its just a matter of finding out what that strength is and develop skill of adjusting the strokes to use strengths in the game. In order to do so, the player needs to analyze are they better at playing close to the table, mid, far distance? Are they better that blocking close to table and mid distance countering? Are they better to take the ball off the bounce at the top of the bounce or after the top of the bounce? Etc, etc, etc. One thing is certain, it is always better to develop technique which has a wider range of application against incoming shots. Regarding the section I left above about Chinese loop and how it works against a very wide range of incoming shots.... Where you see that this loop does not work and needs adjustment is against a consistent strong chops coming from a defender. You see Chinese players making adjustments when they play defenders during the game and quite many of them ( even top Chinese players ) struggle. Yet, its not a major concern since there are too few defenders out there, so the training is statistically driven - training mostly against topspin or attacking another top spin player's push. ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 8:32am
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I did not mention anything about equipment in the post above, so I though I'd make an addendum to the above post as food for thought. When developing the loop technique the Chinese players did not pick a rubber to work with. They used the equipment they had and they built the technique using it. If you have a very strong Chinese loop player in your club, feel free to hand him your blade with whatever you are using and ask him to repeat his technique. Feel free to do so if you use Chinese style and want to learn European style. Hand someone with a chicken wing your Chinese weapon of ping pong death :). What you'll find is that these players will be able to repeat their technique over and over with any blade. Their consistency will suffer at first due to different properties of the equipment, but either of them ( considering they are good enough to know how to adjust ) will be able to adjust to improve consistency. Some adjust sooner than others, but again, this will prove that technique can be applied with any equipment. I know I did not convince many of equipment connoisseurs, but I tried :) ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 9:07am
I nominate this for "Post of the Millennium".
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Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 9:14am
Guess I am not making myself clear enough. In short, the loop has come a long way ever since its inception. Players from various table tennis associations(countries) all have made considerable contributions to the refinement and finesse of the stroke and their strokes mutually share common traits that blur the lines of what type they belong to yet at the same time exihibit differing subtleties that set them apart what we call characters.
The above tells the story of the Japanese invention of the loop and how multiple players gave up their chances at the WTTC to learn the loop and take the roles of hitting partners. This was roughly four to five years before the imminent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution - Cultural Revolution that took China by storm in the most negative way one can imagine. Table tennis did not escape that fate either and by the time they were back on track a new storm was just around the corner in the world of table tennis and we knew what it was. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 10:55am
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Leshxa, thank you for your well reasoned and well explained posts. In the early 2000's - we had an Eastern European coach who taught a variant of the Hungarian loop (regardless of the equipment you used; it worked fine with any rubber). With it's huge backswing, huge torque (foot, knee, hip, torso, shoulder, elbow, wrist) and big whip motion it was a Monster From the East to behold! Anecdotal Story for the Hungarian Loop One local US1000 player spent literally thousands of dollars learning it and thousands of hours drilling it. He developed a consistent weapon that could break the defenses of players many hundreds of rating points higher... His rating rose and rose... Several US1800 players lived in fear of him. Because if he made contact with the ball in the sweet spot of the stroke (execution and recovery time - 3-5 feet back from the table), the point was his. But the coach never taught him 3rd-5th ball drills and rally tactics to set up the shot. And in the end, he was defeated by lower rated players who moved him around, varied spin and jammed his elbow whittling his rating points back down to earth. Moral of the TL;DR If you learn to control the point to help create a ball that you can use your big gun on, you will have greater success. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: LOOPMEISTER
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 11:35am
+1 One cannot deny that there are different styles out there, but it gets overblown on this forum. And people always refer to the same 10 world class players when talking about styles. As if those 10 players encompass every known style out there. Its BS. There are thousands, millions of players out there from every country and almost just as many styles. Its just too easy to say "Chinese straight arm or Euro chicken wing!" BS. ------------- 
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Posted By: sebas-aguirre
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 12:04pm
I disagree. this is pretty basic stuff. for example if you want to loop with: -tuned h3 neo -not tuned h3 neo -tuned whale II -tenergy you will have to change your stroke dramatically from rubber to rubber. even though not tuned h3 is a chinese rubber and so is whale II. so the general conclusion is 1- loop is a certain way the ball travels. how you get that? doesn't matter. it will depend on your equipment, your particular body structure, what they taught you, etc. that's why if you just look at the ball you can't tell if ma long is looping or if timo boll is looping. how they get to that depends on many factors. 2- if you gave ma long a tenergy on forehand he would probably end up looping pretty similar to boll or to mizutani, etc. |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 12:59pm
Thank you for proving my point! Did I mention any specific brands or marks of rubbers or blades? No! So who cares about rubber? I tried quite a few varieties and all I can say is that I did not need to "change stroke dramatically from rubber to rubber". As long as the rubber is same style ( OFF, ALL, etc ) adjustments are rather small in most cases. Sorry but your points don't make any sense at all, the rubber does not loop the ball on its own. The player and his technique do. If your technique contacts the ball at back of the ball, you'll have less topspin than if you contact the top of the ball. That's technique and that will quite how much spin is on the ball and hence how the trajectory will be created. Its table tennis 101. ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 3:03pm
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The differences between the two that I can see is there is more elbow snap in the "Euro" loop. In the case of the "chicken wing" loop, there is also an effort to point the elbow more downwards than backwards, regardless of the height of contact. In the "Chinese" loop, regardless of whether the arm is kept straight or slightly bent, there is very little elbow snap, if at all. The relatively straighter arm position points the elbow more backwards, especially if the contact point is high.
The swings have different feelings of leverage, if that makes any sense.
I posted these observations here: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10148&OB=ASC&PN=4&title=penhold-vs-shakehand - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10148&OB=ASC&PN=4&title=penhold-vs-shakehand
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Posted By: snake_eyes
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:17pm
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Any Physics Majors out there? A more straighter arm = a longer arm; a more bent arm equals a shorter arm. What is the explanation in Physics terms again? If you hit the ball with a longer arm there should be a greater potential of force generated by the longer arm so it can produce a lot more force placed on the ball during contact. Is that right? For example, using a longer baseball bat? But it has been said here already though that the Euro Loop may have a quicker recovery. From my sports med view, injury wise. I think the Euro loop (or at least the way Timo Boll loops with FH) can more likely cause injury to the lower back; the loop is more "violent" with its start and stop motion. http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=WeiTTTube#p/u/22/AJYxjRbaTpo - http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=WeiTTTube#p/u/22/AJYxjRbaTpo Compared to the Chinese FH loop (i.e. Wang Liqin) the fh seems to be more fluid and less likely to get injured. http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=WeiTTTube#p/u/27/_ppw7NT9g1w - http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=WeiTTTube#p/u/27/_ppw7NT9g1w ------------- "If there is no perfect moral law-giver, there is no moral law. If there is no moral law, there is no good. If there is no good, there is no evil." -Dr. Ravi Zacharias Maze ALC Galaxy Moon 2.0 FH/BH |
Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 5:34pm
nice one. Yeah APW, I've seen european players that use european looping like you and JKC. It looks very foreign, almost strange the first time I saw it. I had a really hard time interpreting the first time. "How the H*ll are they making these awesome shots standing like that???" You guys are using your body differently. Here in the US we have lots of hybrid players, mix of european style, japanese, chinese style, and more. I am no exception, I use a mix of euro and chinese loop.
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Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 6:33pm
You have to make adjustments using different equipment but those adjustments are slight not dramatic. Also, if you gave Ma Long tenergy he would loop like Ma Long. |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 8:10pm
I do enjoy hearing about the history of this sport but If I was coaching some kids with different rubbers I would coach them the same, and I won't bother telling them 55 years ago.... What the pros do is one thing, but what the other 50000000 players cant do is move like them.
We don't have the same training and footwork skills, we don't train from 6 years old with the best coaches and best practice partners, the best instructions and we aren't that committed, so looking at Timo or Jake can help but we are not doing the other 100 things to make us the best in the World
knowing whats in a camara will not change the way I push the "click button"
Todays Chinese rubbers are not as hard a 40 years ago, chinese players are getting better backhands but the thing that no one realy knows is what the rubbers the pros use we might know the name, but we don't know the rubbers softness, type of boostering, pretuning, sponge thickness and length of time used.
------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 01/04/2011 at 9:23pm
I am an engineer.
Yes, IF you are comparing to a short arm loop and the arms are rotating at the same rate. However, the straight are swing must deal with the extra inertia that goes up with the radius squared. So if you have a paddle where the arm is extended 1 meter ( long arms but simple number ) and compare that to a bent arm swing with the paddle extended 0.707 meters then the rotational inertia of the paddle is twice as large at 1 meter radius than at 0.707 meter radius. It will take twice the torque and twice the power to accelerat that paddle to the same angular velocity but the tangential velocity of the paddle at 1 meter will be 1.414 times higher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia The picture isn't as simple because the inertia of the arm shoud be taken into account. The short arm looper may be able to achieve a higher rotation ( swing ) speed with the same amount of energy but the then the tangential velocity would match that of the straight are looper. There are no simple advantages. This is were sports science comes in. It is possible to find out what the optimum arm length of a swing should be. Some people may be speed limited or acceleration limited.
There is a lot written about that but that assumes one can swing the bat. A little leaguer would have trouble swinging a pros bat.
The rate of acceleration and deceleration may be higher but the inertia is less and there force the torque ( twisting force on the body ) should be the same. Again I am not taking into account the weight or the arm. I am not convinced that the straight arm loop is best from a physics point of biew. It seems to be 6 of one and a half dozen of another type of thing EXCEPT for the recovery aspect. Keeping your body compact reduces inertia when rotating. Think of ice skaters pulling their arms in. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: Krantz
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 3:24am
Yes, conservation of angular momentum law may come to an effect in case of some looping techniques (Like Ma Long's one or some classic penholders blasts) (video shows the effect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAWLLo5cyfE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAWLLo5cyfE ) They would use the help of additional arm muscles’ groups to start movement and decrease the radius of a rotation during the swing to gain additional acceleration. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 7:16am
I wouldn't bother either if I were to coach. But there is no denying on those rare chances the curious ones would ponder how the stroke has come about where the "unknowing" coach may catch themselves acting "elusive."
Allow me to expand the scope of this thread to apply for all styles. Pick for example Boll(current World No. 1 as of Jan, 2011) and pushblocker(the reigning 2010 Florida State Champion - beg your pardon if you are reading this  ), now if you were to choose between these two as your role-model, ask yourself which one would you more likely go with? Be honest to yourself while you are at that.
------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: wealthweb
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 10:42am
Well said and concurred. According to Wu Jiang Ping who is coaching Wang Hao and Ma Lin, Looping is similar to the creation of a semi-circumference like doing a discus exercise. A straight arm means a longer radius or a longer moment arm, therefore creating a greater moment force. To do a Chinese loop one has to be younger and faster in order to compensate for the slower recovery compared to the Euro Loop. Xu Xin and Ma Long are two typical young players who can effectively perform the Chinese loop with a beautiful format. ------------- Eric Yu 1st Blade: KTS Red + Omega II, Tenergy 64 2nd Blade: Butterfly Haruvatart-S ZL Carbon + Omega III, Tenergy 05 Dream Blade:Special Cypress Custom (Special Royal Treasure Art Product)+ Narucr |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 10:57am
You guys crack me up. You think only in the present. If I where 19 years old I would chose Timo Boll's style no doubt. BUT If I where 59 years old I couldn't do what Timo Boll can do no matter how much training and condition was done but I could still attempt to play like PushBlocker. I would need to learn his mental discipline first. I said this before, PushBlocker can play the same way for the next 20 years and probably get better during some if not most of that time. You can't say that for Timo Boll. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 11:00am
|
Leshxa, I totally agree with you that it's a technique issue, not an equipment issue. I can use any type of inverted rubber and loop almost the same way with very minor adjustments (mostly blade angle and amount of effort used). The number of ejs on this forum thinking that equipment is more important technique is just ridiculous. Krantz hit the mark with his observation that the real difference in observed power is due to the help of additional muscle groups and the decrease in radius that cause the extra acceleration. The extra lever arm and extra rotational inertia affects power much less. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: wealthweb
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 11:01am
Good engineering analysis. Lucky we have some good engineers on board. And I hope engineers are good TT players too. ------------- Eric Yu 1st Blade: KTS Red + Omega II, Tenergy 64 2nd Blade: Butterfly Haruvatart-S ZL Carbon + Omega III, Tenergy 05 Dream Blade:Special Cypress Custom (Special Royal Treasure Art Product)+ Narucr |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 1:10pm
Engineers would be excellent TT players if they had more time to play. :( To many sit at their computer all day and get fat. We have a TT table in the unused engineering office space ( 16'x27' I think ) where the engineers play. back on topic. I wonder though, is there really that much difference between the Chinese and European swing if you just look at the radius of the swing? A smaller Chinese player would need to keep his arm straighter than someone like me that is 191 cm tall to achieve the same paddle speed. This I know. We can control the paddle speed, direction, rotation, and attitude. It makes no difference what style you play. If you hit the same ball with the paddle moving the same way at impact the results will be the same. I think smaller players need to have their arms out straighter to achieve the same paddle speed. There is so much that will truly will not know until someone gets a high speed camera and takes videos of the swings of different players with different styles. I am sure you have all seen where athletes where a suit with lines and marker that make it easy for a computer to spot so it can trace the motion and do the analysis. Has anybody seen this done for TT? Maybe this question should be submitted to 'Myth Busters'. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 1:30pm
That depends - do you want to look pretty or do you want to win? ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: Krantz
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 2:16pm
That’s not necessarily true imo - when the subject is the speed alone. Compare boxing matches in different weight categories: just from looking at it, in light categories they hit much faster. Also, I agree that when moving paddle the same way the result should be the same, but there are many ways to achieve this movement and some of them may be more efficient than others; with particularly "bad" technique one may not be able to produce some of them at all (with demanded speed or angle that’s it).
|
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 3:20pm
But you are just looking at it. Why have weight classes then? Cite a reference. Just to relate to the current topic, do these lighter boxers hit with chicken or straight arm swings? I just had to ask since it gets us back on topic.
I agree there are inefficient ways to swing a paddle, but I thought we were debating proper China or Euro loop types of swings and the all the odd ball strokes that we must sometimes make. To me it isn't a style issue. I will do what is necessary to get the ball back. It all comes down to generating the right impulse to achieve the desired result. Most of use do not have an efficiency problem, we have an accuract problem. That means we must hit the ball so the impulse has the correct magnitude and direction.
------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: Krantz
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 4:20pm
|
I reckon
that none of us really play at world's level but I’m sure that we can talk
about world level game - and strive to at least make steps in the right
direction. The difference in results of execution of a technique in a
"proper", proven method and "just doing it" is huge.
Unfortunately there aren’t many sources in English concerning TT, but i believe
that sometimes we can draw valid conclusions from researches concerning sports
with similar physical efforts and requirements - so – I’ve just found and
article when the power of a punch of a professional boxer is described to be 10
times greater than those of an amateur (400 KG and 40 KG?). Discussion about
most effective methods of delivering a stroke is valid and just shrugging of
"the Myths" isn’t the best way to talk about our sport - especially
when we are all concerned about a strange domination of one particular country
here. http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=5538765E-E7F2-99DF-393E0A0CD7821157 - http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=5538765E-E7F2-99DF-393E0A0CD7821157 |
Posted By: Heimdallalso
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 4:20pm
I want to look pretty!
 That's always been a "fault"... so to speak!
What troubles me most is I've not achieved either!  ------------- NEXY Lissom st 85g fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8 |
Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 4:31pm
+1 for me too, on all accounts... an "irrational" desire for my form to be as pretty as it is effective... AND, so far, a total inability to succeed in being pretty OR effective.  ------------- Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80 |
Posted By: Heimdallalso
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 4:34pm
|
I lied...
my game is semi-pretty!  ------------- NEXY Lissom st 85g fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8 |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 5:25pm
Yes, Leshxa was spot on. It's like there is some mass delusion going down. How so many people could believe such nonsense is truly astounding and worthy of a sociological study.
|
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 5:36pm
The aricle lost all credibilty. Kg is a mass not a force. You would think that Scientic American would do better at reviewing their articles. Shame. I do agree that a trained boxer can deliever a harder punch but that isn't what TT is all about. TT is about delivering a punch with a force of say 5 Newtons on the button to achieve a particular shot. It isn't about blasting away like boxing is.
I am not shrugging off "the Myths", they exist unfortunately. I just want to see the facts. So far I can't get beyond the simple concept if hitting the ball to generate and impulse with the right magnitude and direction. How it is achieved doesn't make much difference. This is a game of precision, consistency and mobility not power. I will chose precision and consistency over power any time because even with my untrained abilities I can hit the ball more than fast enough. Another thing I would chose over power is mobility. I can't generate the right impulse on the ball if I can't reach it. I do need power to be more mobile or quicker. Who is #1 now? What kind of loop does he have? ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 5:51pm
| Chinese use a bigger stroke= more power. And points are often over in less than 5 balls. The power from a chinese stroke is very hard to counterloop with a smaller european forehand unless you are Timo Boll. |
Posted By: Heimdallalso
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 6:38pm
While I like Timo & his game a great deal it is an aberration; that being his #1 position at the moment.
I also agree with those who say too much is made of the difference in the rubbers/equipments.
I also happen to think the straight arm loop, may at times, translate more efficiently in regards to speed & spin Vs the more "Euro" model.
It is hard to argue with success.
Just one mans view!
 ------------- NEXY Lissom st 85g fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8 |
Posted By: Heimdallalso
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 6:57pm
I respectfully disagree with this too.
I would phrase it differently. We have all seen players who translate the power (available through more or less "correct" technique, or not) that may be available to them poorly; maybe extremely poorly as they've not even a beginners understanding.
TT is a sport where we have to learn how to put our power into the ball efficiently as well as the other factors you've also noted.
Time is short...
gotta run.
Good Hitting. ------------- NEXY Lissom st 85g fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8 |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 7:19pm
If you mean that power must be controlled then I agree. The point I was making is that we have excess capacity in power but not enough prescision, consistency and mobility. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 10:31pm
Thank you for reminding me about the past. Right when I am about to forget, I am actually still waiting for a response to the " http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37585&PID=471271&title=paddle-mass-and-speed#471271 - reference " I have provided that you insisted so much on. And I expect it, if you care enough to ever make one, to be nothing short of possessing with it a decent degree of Emotional Quotient, admittedly because you have a way with neurological excitation and BP escalation that rival the momentarily (un)professional player http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39016&PN=1#481772 - Wang Yuegu . Excuse me for going off-topic, APW46. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/05/2011 at 10:53pm
Confessedly I am a member of the greedy bunch when it comes to striving for a win while pretending to look pretty. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 12:10am
| Just saw a slow motion video of Boll's forehand and realized that there isn't an elbow snap as much as there is a forward and upward pivot of the forearm about the axis of the upper arm which rotates in the shoulder socket. The motion can be likened to waving bye-bye to the floor with the entire forearm like a windshield wiper, pivoting in a plane parallel to the floor, pivoting about the upper arm, with the elbow tucked in at the side. Tilt the plane so the forearm is pivoting from low to high and that's pretty much Boll's arm motion. The trick is to not just close the elbow. If done right, there should be a bit of tension in the rear delts in the backswing. Boll's wrist lags as his elbow pivots forward and up, and catches up at contact with a snap. I can't tell how much the angle changes between his forearm and upper arm before and after contact. Perhaps he also incorporates some degree of elbow snap. Thoughts anyone? |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 1:57am
There are way to many variables at play. I don't know if anyone ever teaches an elbow snap, but I think if you have to focus and work on this particular part of the stroke, then its very unlikely that the stroke is executed correctly. I guess in the game is different because in lack of time, possible elbow snap can compensate for deficiency in footwork or lack of time to use footwork. ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 2:00am
I would definitely be interested in this "study". I think too many people fantasize that there is something on the market that would immediately bump the game up for lots of people. Reminds me a scene in "Tip Cup" when someone has like 100 different golf gadgets attached to them to learn the proper technique, lol. ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: pipigrande
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 5:07pm
|
Question... Is there a such thing as proper technique? It seems that you could have a Chinese stroke, European Stroke, something in the middle, something in the far end, etc. What defines a proper technique? ------------- Acoustic BH: T64 FH: BW2 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 5:10pm
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:03pm
|
In other sports, golf particularly, every *individual* has his own style... no two players are exactly the same... BUT there are are similarities... stance width, ball, position, "hitter" or "swinger"... Back in the 70's there was the Jack Nicklaus swing type that gained a lot of popularity and many pros including Greg Norman became very successful with it. It is a good technique... but it was just *that* - a technique that pros taught because it had proven to be successful... a passing trend. Today there is "stack and tilt", the Leadbetter swing theory and many other competing schools of thought. Even still there are completely unorthodox players like Jim Furyk. After seeing all of this for me it comes down to utter nonsense to call one style superior to another. Probably even more crazy to try to adhere yourself to one type of style... find something that works for YOU and stick to it. Don't be afraid to try new styles and approaches and get worse before you get better to find that style though. TT is a sport filled with different styles and that is what makes it great... I hate nothing more than the people I see who come up to others acting like they know that person's game and what they can do better than they do.... next they are recruiting this person in to their cult of TT where they are the god and it's because their technique is so perfect and awesome... and of course they can teach it to them because of their superior intelligence. Never mind being a pro player and a teaching pro are two different things and this type or person is neither!
------------- Timo ALC FL Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:04pm
|
A complete player must be able to do both. More Euro when close to the table for spin and control in opening loops (watch gatien, maze, boll). More Chinese style when getting away from the table (more time for a bigger back swing) --> there the legs play a much bigger role and the arm is fully extended and goes "free" as soon as the player has "thrown his shoulder away" --> http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/06-09.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/06-09.html see ma long in the background (gosh!!! that little clip really influenced me). Of course, as pipigrande underlines it, we have everything in between! edit: the clip is now at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=locofduK2dQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=locofduK2dQ ------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 4:44am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 2:20pm
------------- Timo ALC FL Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
Posted By: mon22
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 2:41pm
|
starting at 2:58 rally: Ma Long was forced to continue using tenergy since Mattenet started attacking and he was caught off guard (he twindles btw when smashing) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-4FC6ZyNrs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-4FC6ZyNrs Im referring to the discussion about different rubbers = different strokes, which btw i agree 100% the thread had gotten too big for me to mention my find of this video. Hope this sheds light lol ------------- I am a total Newb. Come at me! |
Posted By: dabookerman
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 6:27pm
LOL - many a farting sparrow has ruined a good round of mine.... I actually like the golf analogies but in an entirely different way. Because of the distances involved, golf entails that the player who most accurately applies combined force WITH physics hits the ball the farthest. It is easy to prove this yet many don't get it. The problem with TT as noted is that you have to apply the stroke within the time and space constraints of each point. I agree that many styles work both in golf and TT, but the underlying physical principles remain the same. Power in both is primarily generated by torsional rotation of the body (or weight shift) applied to the arc of the swing. IMHO, the same thing applies to the loop and explains why physically smaller Chinese loopers can blast through the more imposing European loopers as they are generating a longer, more efficient arc of acceleration through their arm extension and weight shift. This application of physics also explains the increased back struggles of Boll and Maze. Basically, a Chinese looper in effect slings his arm through the swing using larger core muscles while the Euros place more starting and stopping in the actual arm itself which places stress on the back. Look at any sport involving a swinging motion - TT, golf, tennis, baseball, even jai alai or throwing a football - and the power comes from the release of power built through torsional rotation/acceleration and not from the arm or side itself. One of the more puzzling things to most though, is that that players with the most efficient motions both generate more power and have fewer core muscle injuries. ------------- Photino FL Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
Posted By: dabookerman
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 6:27pm
|
I am 6'00' tall and not only can I hit a golf ball more than 300+ yards,
I routinely FLY it more than 300+ yards. I have very long arms which
help my swing arc and great rotational flexibility (even though I cannot
bend over and touch my toes!). The main drawback with TT is that there
is not enough time to execute a full rotational swing. This explains why WLQ literally "owned a decade" with his FH. He was just big enough to generate the largest arc with the most power yet not too big for that swing to be too long for the speed of the game. ------------- Photino FL Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 8:11pm
|
I was pretty long off the tee back in the day I played but I was of average build so I compensated by taking the club back way past parallel. As I got older and increasingly more fragile I had to make my swing more efficient to get the same distance. This brought up the question of what is the most perfect technique to produce the most power... sadly it seems to turn out still an individual thing due to a big factor a reasons. For instance as a teenager you are growing at a high rate of speed and are flexible, easily recover from injury and can gain muscle much more quickly. This leads to being able to be more aggressive, and have imperfect technique but it does not matter because you can make up for it because you have plenty of time to learn and still are growing taller so your swing has to change anyway. But what if you are old / injured? You'll have to change your swing! You might have spent a lot of time learning one technique but now you can't use it anymore because your body can do that! So now you have a different style to learn to get back to the same level. Same thing in TT. That's why you don't see many people in wheel chairs who are choppers or lobbers it's just not possible.
In TT the application of power has even more constraints.. for example the more incoming topspin the ball has the more of a glancing blow you must make to re-loop the ball. In that case the application of speed and power to the ball has be be every precise. In golf the tee box is pretty much perfect... still the golf swing is more complex and has still other factors that get involved like wind / weather... etc.
------------- Timo ALC FL Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
Posted By: TTslurp
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 1:16am
Just testing now... |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 02/11/2011 at 2:31am
|
when I have doubts about my game I come back here to resource myself and I go out of it all pumped up again. ------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 02/11/2011 at 4:34am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: shakepender
Date Posted: 02/11/2011 at 6:23am
How does one train to conciously or automatically do the European loop when close to the table and the Chinese one when further away?
I find myself doing a quick and shortened Chinese loop when close to the table and missing completely...
------------- Viscaria : Omg IV Pro / Omg IV Euro |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 02/11/2011 at 6:43am
------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: TTslurp
Date Posted: 02/11/2011 at 9:33am
| Testing my new Super Duper Euro Chinese choploop... No, sorry, was just testing how my reply would look if i clicked "Quote". I am new to this forum. |
Posted By: TTslurp
Date Posted: 02/11/2011 at 9:38am
Testing my new Super Duper Euro Chinese choploop... No, sorry, was just testing how my reply would look if i clicked "Quote". I am new to this forum. Could you please inform me how to remove a reply of mine? |
Posted By: dragon kid
Date Posted: 02/11/2011 at 10:00am
|
ttslurp... You can't remove a reply.. you only allowed to edit it.. ------------- 'Nobody is Perfect. I am Nobody' |
Posted By: TTslurp
Date Posted: 02/11/2011 at 10:06am
OK thanks. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/02/2012 at 3:41pm
I think that while playing today, I realized that this POV is quite wrong and in a dangerous way too, because in practice what you do before and after contact does affect how the ball is contacted. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 10/02/2012 at 3:46pm
It doesn't affect HOW the ball is contacted. It affects WHERE the ball is contacted! ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/02/2012 at 4:16pm
Let's be substantive - "how" can incorporate "where" unless we make a clear distinction.
I agree that the location of contact is important, but I also believe that some strokes (concave/convex) produce more dwell time as distinct from different contact points than other strokes (vertical/horizontal) and that this difference in dwell time/contact point can have a significant difference in effect on the ball. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 10/02/2012 at 4:41pm
I agree that the stroke before does affect the impact but there are many strokes that could make the same impact, the same impulse with the same state at impact. Only the state at the time of impact matters. If the state is the same the results will be the same. The ball doesn't care what happened before impact. I disagree with the after impact part. It has no affect on the ball. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/02/2012 at 5:02pm
| Whatever swing you use, the most important thing is to time the shot correctly and to remain in good balance afterword. If you can do those two things you will play well, and there is lots of range for individual variation. I'm pretty sure the Chinese are not dominating because they all have a certain way of approaching their forehands, to me me a lot of them look different from each other. I think it's because they all move better, are fitter, and have a higher level of competition to cope with on a daily basis, starting from the time they are about five years old. Also, it seems to me that the kind of swing some of them have would come pretty naturally for anyone who played with Chinese rubbers all their life, which also suggests that if it doesn't feel natural for you it's not worth trying to emulate it. |
Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 10/02/2012 at 5:03pm
| I think the only thing chinese about the way chinese players loop the ball is their skin color and what their rubber says. The better I get at the game, the more I see how much I have over-thought certain things and the more I see that this is myth. Every player has a repertoire of different loops. People used to just say that the straight arm loop was the chinese loop. But I see europeans do it just as much. I think individual style changes much more than "chinese vs european" Each chinese player loops the ball differently just as each european player loops the ball differently. Some europeans loop more like certain chinese players than other chinese players do. It is directly a result of the person's style, and not their nationality. At the end of the day- everyone just moves their arm forward and up to loop the ball. Now if you wanna talk about the "chinese game" vs the "European game" then I think that holds a little bit more water. Their foundation of thinking is all similar because it comes from the same coaching. It's cultural. But stroke is strictly personal style. The only cut difference is their rubber material, which has an effect on how certain balls are played, and how the ball comes off of the racket or reacts to the rubber, but it's not different enough to really matter much. One could say that Ryu Seung Min has a really heavy chinese style loop, but he always used bryce and now tenergy. Guy still loops with a lot of action and power. Hell, the fact that the chinese play shakehand now should be enough to prove there is no seperation. That was originally a totally European idea. |
Posted By: Anderni
Date Posted: 10/02/2012 at 6:36pm
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^+1
^Qui Yike who was a student of Kong LH.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/02/2012 at 6:55pm
The primary reason I disagree is that a stroke forms a trajectory. Therefore I think the idea that only state at the time of impact matters is wrong is that the stroke is not just about state at time of impact, but about the buildup and the follow through. So why did I come to this realization? Two things: 1) I have been looping inconsistently of recent and I happened on Sunday to hit some mid speed loops against one of my opponent's blocks. Today with my hitting partner, I was looping again and we went into a drill where instead of hitting his popups, I had to loop them all. Then I realized that usually, when I tried to spin the ball, I hit the ball at the back or at the top of the ball with a vertical drive stroke. I was far more consistent when I used a stroke that arced around the ball. It then came to me that I was "covering the ball" and that for some reason, this made a huge difference in consistency for my game versus just contacting the ball at the back with a rapid tangential stroke. 2) I am able to serve heavy backspin on my forehand but I was having problems replicating the same success on my backhand side. I asked my coach why and he told me that I was curving around the ball and pulling it upwards on my forehand but that on the backhand, it seemed that I was just trying to brush the bottom of the ball rather than going around it. This insight fixed the problem instantly. My point here is that maybe on some strokes, the dwell time is so short that shaping ("covering the ball") is not as big a deal but I am skeptical that these strokes can be easily separated from the ones where shaping is not a big deal because the stroke is a path and I think that a follow through is a part of that path, while it seems to me that you think that a follow through is not. I agree that a follow-through can be excessive but that is in part determined by the impulse/force in stroke already. Therefore, based on my experience and logic, the separation of contact from follow through is dangerous for didactic reasons and may not even be fully correct in reality because a stroke is not just about contact but in part about the path before and after. After all, you don't have path without plotting the trajectory before and after! ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 10/02/2012 at 11:47pm
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I always have this question about looping technique but not just between Europe and China, but more the difference between all the top players, as their video is readily available. ML's style is like a boxer punch, arm and wrist in "L" shape. ZJK's arm is relatively straight with big swing. Timo, Maze and Mizutani have compact strokes from waist and bend wrist, arm wrist in "Z" shape. Even Chinese players like ZJK and ML have totally different stokes coming from the same team and head coach. The same applies to the top 3 Chinese penholders as well. I believe all looping styles have its place depending on your position to the ball and distance from table. So practice them all is not such a bad idea until you found one that suits you best.
------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 10/02/2012 at 11:50pm
I believe you can curve the paddle around the ball when you are serving and this is sometimes very desirable. The ball is moving slowly then serving and this makes it possible. When I watch William Henzel do his FH tomahawk you can see he does it a little differently from others. You can see he is curving the paddle around the side and sometimes the bottom side of the ball.
Just how much do you think you can cover the ball in a few milliseconds. Just think in how many degrees in how much time and tell us if you think that is possible.
OK, I believe the follow through is import but only the path at impact matters for the current ball. Obviously if I make a big swing there will be a big follow through but after impact the follow through doesn't affect the current ball. The follow through will affect the next ball if I don't get back into position. I also think the swing to impact is important in that it helps with consistency. That doesn't affect the fact that only the state at impact matters too the current ball, there are many strokes that will result in the same state at impact but some strokes are smoother and will have faster recovery times than others. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: power7
Date Posted: 10/03/2012 at 12:48am
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Chinese coaches from the PRC system all have their own way of teaching topspin attacks. But they all primary focus on shoulder rotation and paddle position at the beginning and end of the stroke. As you get better they move you away from the table for mid distance and long distance loop rallies. So the progression of topspin attacks goes from topspin counter hits, drives, off the bounce close to the table loops, mid distance loops, long distance loops. Along the way they teach about how to rub the ball and where to rub the ball in various situations. So by game time hopefully you remember the "ideal" form you learned in practice and can use them the games. non Chinese coaches that I've had experience with don't really think in those terms of progression in skill level. They just do a few drills, play a lot of practices matches, and hope you pick it up along the way. So lots of experimentation and self discovery on the players part. For example my kid was recently taught the third ball attack off a serve by a non-Chinese coach. However, he has no idea how to read the spin off the 2nd ball to start the 3rd ball attack. So it succeeds less than 50% of the time. Both the Chinese coach and myself concur that it's an improvement that he's trying to kill the 3rd ball. But we both agree his understanding of paddle angle and reading the ball are lacking preventing a higher percentage success rate. Which goes back to the Chinese coaches favorite saying "I could teach you that, but can you use it in a game?" To me it seems like a lack of knowledge capital on how to develop players. Like when I take my kids to swimming lessons, there are coaches, not world record holders or international competitors. But they have a structured systems to teach kids how to swim. Breaking down the basic strokes and breathing technique to an "ideal" they teach the kids. As they master the skills, and past their swim test, they advance to the next class. However, the USA is known to be a powerhouse in international swimming so this knowledge capital on coaching the "ideal" exist at the most basic level.
------------- DHS PG-7, H3 Neo, 729-5 Butterfly Power-7, Red TG2 Neo 39degree, Black Donic Bluefire M1 |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 10/03/2012 at 2:30am
The question is good. However, I would ask, "can you show me how to win?" ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/03/2012 at 6:19am
Agreed, but I think that it is hard enough to separate the path at impact from the follow through that you should consider it one stroke. I think that the explanation from some professionals may be confusing or incorrect for "covering the ball", but that there is real merit to covering the ball, and it isn't found in a superfluous follow through, but in the kind of trajectory the paddle will take towards the ball when that follow through is accounted for.
I think the travel path being tied to contact and the beginning of the follow through means that it is an oversimplification to say that many strokes will have the same result at impact unless they in essence have the same travel path. In fact, impact is probably affected by the paddle path and a curved paddle path might have different effects on the ball than a purely vertical tangential paddle path with the same contact point. And if the convex or concave nature of the travel path affects the ball differently, follow through is more important than you seemed to give it credit for initially. Again, the disagreement might not be substantive, but I came back to this because I have met one player who saw no point in "covering the ball" (though he is the weakest table tennis coach I have played), but I think it is because the concept of covering the ball is really more about the paddle path which should be more curved to give the ball more rotation/spin. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |