Multi Ball Training: Pros and Cons
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Topic: Multi Ball Training: Pros and Cons
Posted By: bonggoy
Subject: Multi Ball Training: Pros and Cons
Date Posted: 09/07/2011 at 12:30pm
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My team mate and I were in disagreement regarding the benefits of multiball training (MBT). He was pro one on one coaching (OOC).
I came from a system where multiball is used early, often and continuously. I never really gave a good thought of it's benefit. I know it works for me. I know I can MBT train with someone several levels below me but can't train non MBT if they can't keep the ball on the same "area" much more on the table, regardless of level. Thoughts? |
Replies:
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/07/2011 at 1:58pm
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MBT is great for all levels of play. even when learning hand-eye coordination and swing mechanics. from a beginner pov, they can't get a consistent rally going so there's no point trying to go into a rally with them. so MBT can just feed them balls and get them used to the swing and it won't matter where the ball lands (at first). ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 09/07/2011 at 5:18pm
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Pros-can continue to work on footwork, etc.. even if you miss a ball. Good for learning strokes because often you cannot keep the ball on the table in a rally. Tons of balls in a short amount of time. cons- not realistic in where the ball only comes from one place, sometimes unrealistic ball tempo
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Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/08/2011 at 1:00am
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the tempo depends on how good the feeder is. as for ball positioning...that is a bit more tricky. usually a bucket in the middle of the table fixes that and you can feed about half the table from positioning....again it depends on the skill of the feeder.
------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/08/2011 at 6:45am
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu80P4MpF3c - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu80P4MpF3c that is simply crazy.... ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 09/08/2011 at 9:35am
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Our Korean club 2300+ are still on Multiball as part of their training. It is dificult in a 1 on 1 to replicate the wide angles and speed of ball, nor is it possible to create the smash smash balls alternating to each corner that develop or maintain anticipation and quick movement in that kind of overload timespan. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 09/08/2011 at 10:10am
| Needs a lot of practice to get the right speed on topspin ones, and hard to control alternating short and long backspin. |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/08/2011 at 11:19am
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it's a lot of learning the feel on how to feed the ball. i know i had so much trouble switching between those short and long pushes. i really think that it actually helped my real game too by doing a lot of feeding. ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 09/08/2011 at 6:15pm
Those kids are so beast. The last drill they did is godly. ------------- Custom Walnut 7-ply DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40° BTY T64 210g |
fatt wrote:Posted By: Nori
Date Posted: 09/09/2011 at 4:19pm
| man... i need that drill at 4:19 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 09/09/2011 at 5:59pm
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Pro's= good training for footwork, recovery, especially squeezing time that is not possible in real play. Con's= its not real, at no time ever are you going to face a player who delivers the same ball you will get in multi ball, because it is delivered from an unrealistic position of a static ball delivered from a hand to a bat/paddle, that in no way can be replicated in real play.
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/09/2011 at 7:52pm
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multiball alone is no good. it should be partnered with table drills and service practice and receiving ------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/10/2011 at 4:04am
Would agree with APW here. In my opinion, the higher the level of the player, the more important multiball training becomes as thats when you'll start seeing that pace and power in opponents.
I see alot of coaches giving lower level players (1500 and under) multiball and have always questioned it because at that level, they will NEVER face a player that skilled that the multiball speed of recovery will come into play nor will they face anyone who repeatedly will feed them perfect balls with perfect power to the same spots over and over again. The student does decently in the drills mostly because they can borrow the power and pace from the high level feeder which makes them think they improved greatly. It also makes the coach look good during the lesson because they love to show off the "progress" to hook you into more lessons.
However when REAL gameplay comes vs someone of their level, it's completely different from what they trained because they will have no perfect pace/power/placement to borrow from. They see alot of slow pace balls where they have to generate all the speed and spin which they didn't really train. In essence, they didn't really learn a thing because they weren't training the way they play. They end up killing themselves in games via unforced errors from inconsistencies, bad footwork/timing due to the slower pace, bad reading of spin. This keeps them at the lower levels even if they have had formal lessons for a long time. It's also just one of the reasons why lower level long pips players can just walk through the lower levels without even knowing how to use the long pips properly. It doesn't matter if they return it high as long as its weird/slow/spinny... the lower level players will miss more than they make. Equate it to learning how to build a house but knowing nothing about building the foundation the house will sit on. The house falls apart when unforeseen things come along. You can't skip to step D before you can accomplish A/B/C.
If anything, I feel lower level players should adapt to the slower speed of play because they will see alot of low power balls, slow pace balls, floaty balls, mis-hit or mis-read spinny balls. It's imperative to be able to consistently open/finish on these types of shots with a very low rate of unforced errors before you move to higher levels. At the lower levels, unforced errors are the real killer and as your skill goes higher, the importance of not making stupid mistakes is even more magnified.
Instead of multiball at lower levels, it would benefit the player more just to play practice points or practice games versus opponents near their level. The other alternative is scripted/free play points (serve, push, open, then free play rally). It will force you to be able to learn the pace, the footwork/timing associated with it, the ability to read spin to return serves tighter, and the ability to generate your own power before you move on to the "multi-ball" pace.
Alot of lower levels like to rant on about "more speed, more power, better rubbers, better blades, the need to tune their rubbers, blah blah blah." You shouldn't be playing "fast and powerful" if you can't handle playing "slow and controlled" with high consistency and low errors! That's a recipe for embarassment when someone figures you out and decides to slow pace push you to death (ping pong style by just keeping it on the table with varying underspin) while watching you kill yourself in a "fast and powerful" blaze of glory from unforced errors. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/10/2011 at 5:32am
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That would depend on the coach and the type of training they're giving along with the intentions of your friend. In China when they train the kids, some schools will encourage them not to play any games until they've drilled all aspects of basics into them. Then they start schooling gameplay and tactics when they know their basics and footwork form a solid foundation for them to learn off of. However you have to take into account that those kids are learning for different reasons such as trying to become world class players to pull their families out of poverty so they need world class training. If your friend falls in this category where he's trying to become serious professional player, then I would follow the coach if he's really intent on taking him to that level and your friend is committed to actually wanting to go that far. That decision will usually come between your friend and his coach since your friend is the one dropping that much money and time into it. Your friend needs to assess the situation accordingly to what he's getting coaching quality wise, per what his goal is (professional? amateur? playing for fun?), per the time/money/effort spent.
However I hate to say it but I've also seen coaches that charge 40 bucks/hour to be glorified hitting partners. They rarely give tips and they make the students pick up the balls while they just stand around and waste the lesson time as much as possible. They might limit the balls they use with you when training to save money from broken/lost balls and for you to waste more time picking up balls. When training, they will purposely feed balls that make the student look great just to give them incentive to come back for more lessons when they know they'ed do horrible in a real game where random stuff comes. Also they don't take into account that the student is not looking to become a world class player. I know APW has experienced this with coaches also.... training the students like they're pro's when they will never hit that level or have even have the intention to hit that level. I've seen some coaches refuse students unless they feel you have the potential to bring fame to their club. Some will take you... half ass your lessons... then encourage you to play against their gifted students supposedly "for your benefit" but it's really for their students to practice against you and your style. So you're basically paying them to help train their students and be a test dummy for their gifted students to practice unorthodox balls on. I can definitely agree that not all coaching is good coaching.
If your friend falls in that category where he just wants to become a skilled amateur player playing in rated tournies here and there, then league games will help get him the playing experience against different opponents and styles. It would also give him a place to attempt to apply everything he has learned into one working package. I would definitely recommend that since theres nothing like experience to get better. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/10/2011 at 5:43am
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No problem! Updated more stuff if you wanna re-read it. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/10/2011 at 6:46am
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a good multiball session is not only consist of drills for speed but also adaptation to changes in speed and pace of the ball. if somebody feeds you with balls of the same speed then its not enough.. there are also drills that needs to be slowed down. multiball drill is very versatile you can adjust the speed, to say that it is unrealistic because of the speed is to miss the point on what it is for and things that are really done ------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/10/2011 at 7:52am
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It's not just the speed... its the differing quality based on the feeder. As APW said, it's delivered upon a platform of a static ball from hand to blade which is unrealistic. Also the quality of the different speed and paces are very similar based on the feeder's skill. Alot of coaches can not simulate a lower level's random ball quality very well.
In a real game however, there is already existing spin and pace on the ball which can differ vastly depending on the skill of the opponent along with the randomness of placement/height/depth. A push from one player may be quite heavy while a push from another player can look heavy but really have nothing at all since their pushing quality may not be high level.
However in multi-ball, the student has been training on only the feeder's quality/spin/pace and the stroke used and entered into muscle memory is geared towards it. The student never learns how to adapt the stroke when all those factors change vastly from person to person.
So here's a good example of what typically happens in these scenarios. Your feeder is a 2400 level coach so he/she has a good quality push feed... the underspin is pretty heavy and the low level student adapts a more upwards stroke to loop it to compensate for the heavy spin. After an hours worth of training, the student has it down pretty well. After training the student plays his friend... the friend is 1200. The friend pushes to the student and the quality of the push is no where near the quality of the feeders... we'll say much less spin and height is higher. The student uses the same stroke as he does training during the multiball and proceeds to loop the ball up and long due to the stroke now being in muscle memory and the misread.
Next few balls, the 1200 player keeps pushing and the quality keeps changing since they really have no solid clue what they're doing at that level (they just push it back onto the table to keep it in play)... some are heavy... some are not... some have medium spin... some are fast... some are slow... some pop up.... some are no spin...etc etc. Then the student tries all kinds of stuff to attempt to compensate because they've never seen it from the multiball... the trained loop doesn't work... he tries to kill some of them... he tries to drive some of them and misses the majority of them... ends up losing to someone with no training. Now the student's left wondering what real progress has been made. It looked great in training but didn't translate well to an actual game.
The thing is instead of training in those specific scenarios they would encounter, they trained in a scenario where they were fed similar quality consecutively balls to known locations. So when it came time for randomness to come in a true game, 1 stroke does not work for everything. This is why it's better to train within the environment you will encounter. If your opponents are 1200-1400... practice with those levels until you can adapt quickly while limiting unforced errors. When it comes time for a real game... the environment and the balls you see are no longer foreign to you. You train in the environment in which you play. The more environments (different opponents) you train against, the faster and more readily you can read and adapt. The faster you can read and adapt, the less mistakes you make which is utter gold when you're developing through the lower levels.
By the time you get better, you no longer have trouble with random pacing from random people. You can now open and finish shots consistently instead of having random unforced errors. And as the quality of opponents go up, the more predictable the quality of the shots become in terms of spin, speed, consistency. That's when multiball comes into importance to deal with that speed. The higher levels is also where multiball makes sense because the quality of the shots being returned won't be as wildly random so you can actually train with a high level feeder and see those types of balls consistently.
------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/10/2011 at 7:54pm
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let me elaborate on what i stated. the quality of shots that you stated because of a high level feeder and a low level opponent can be altered. that is why i said there is a variation of speed, pace and also the spin. a good multiball not only does that but also deals with specific situations where height of the bounce changes and putting in random circumstances. to say multiball is unrealistic is not entirely true. though you do not depend on the multiball for you to master the situations you will encounter including your opponents, it helps you prepare to possible situations that you will encounter possibly. let me use your example of the 1200 vs a player who trains in multiballs. you have not stated the level of the player nor stated how long the latter has been training so it isnt a good comparison. if that 1200 player is a witty player he will win to some extent but only to some extent. practicing against diff opponents will help you but doing multiballs will help you develop faster since you develop your strokes in a better way. what im trying to say is multiball is very important in all levels especially on lower levels. when my coach was in china to train in his younger days. he would see kids taught how to feed balls even at ages of 8 or 9 or younger. they are very good feeders by the way and level as feeders are good. what kind of multible sessions do they have aside from the fixed positions and basic footwork drills? variation and random feeds. you also failed to see the purpose of feeding the ball constantly to a fixed position. multiball is a progression of strokes. you need to start feeding the ball first in a fixed position because the most important thing in the beginning is to teach the player how to hit the ball properly including the movement of the body when doing a certain stroke, after that it progresses to placement on dff parts of the table like looping on the middle or backhand side with a forehand loop, after that it is placed randomly and so on and so forth. at the level of 1200 i wouldnt worry about my student losing or winning, i focus on the development of his strokes and techniques in the table. as a coach who always teach beginners i would also see them lose against players who have played against them in the beginning. it is normal but by training them through multiball in majority, partnered with match play and specific table drills those low level players will just be low level players too unless they train properly. i have a 16 yr old female students whom i have been teaching 2x a week for almost 3 months. on the first month i taught her the basic strokes, the most advanced for that time i taught her was a bh forehand one step drill, on her second month i taught her how to loop on the forehand ad in the middle of the 2nd month how to do bh loop. on her 3rd month i will be teaching her to randomly loop the ball on different parts of the table. she can win against 1200 level players you are saying. do you get the point that im saying rack? also to say that a lot of coaches cannot simulate a lower levels situational play is a bit biased. feeding balls with higher ht and less spin is very easy. ------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/10/2011 at 8:29pm
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Good counter argument Yogi...
So you can simulate it but your quality will also always be more predictable than a lower level player. The ball quality will also be higher than a 1200 player. I have never seen any coach multiball to simulate how randomly a lower level player plays which includes the pace. I've never seen a "no power" multi ball or a coach using a pre-made blade to multiball. To make it even more precise, I've even approached different provincial coaches and asked them if that was possible and they said no, the quality can never be the same. The only way you'll get that is by playing and experience.
The kids in China multiball because most of them don't even play games at that age. The coaches tell them to not play a single game until all basics and scenarios are drilled into their heads for the foundation (the robot training). Only after that will they game train, tactics, styles. You can't compare the world class hardcore training in China vs the mini 1 hour training lessons people get here. People here don't go to table tennis school and train for 8+ hours a day. You will never see a 1200 player here feeding like any one of those kids. It's a totally different goal since they are trying to become world class players. They also multiball because thats the quality of shots they'll see since they practice with everyone whos foundations are already drilled in solid. However here, that won't be the case.
Now feeding to a fixed position... that can be useful just for the feel aspect. However as I said earlier, the quality will drastically change once you get a real opponent that makes you actually move around randomly and perform it with different quality balls. They can do it fine against your fed balls and against simularly trained opponents like your other students... but get someone really unorthodox who throws them off... see how they do. Have them face someone with a dirt slow blade and dull rubbers and see if your trained strokes will still work.
It's always easier to play someone who has had lessons if you've had lessons. You've all learned the same things so you know what to expect. You all use similar gear. The trouble comes when you see someone who plays a style you've never seen before. Can the player draw from the multi ball drills and same strokes when what they're seeing is nothing like it?
------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Vassily
Date Posted: 09/10/2011 at 11:59pm
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I think the chinese coaching technique of no games until the basics are down is very sensible. I think it can be applied to amateurs as well, not just people going for world class level. If you start an average player from scratch, assuming twice a week coaching, it is very possible that well within a year you will have good basic form. The feel might not be there, but at least there is no odd movements or really bad habits. One year (at worst) is not a great deal of time in the long run, and the training would be fun too. Beginners miss alot, and if you try to rally with them they will get tentative trying not to miss, try to poke at the ball instead of hitting smoothly through, and the form and feel will go out the window. So multiball is great for that. Finally multiball is also less frustrating for beginners, so they are more likely to continue with the sport. Then at the next level, if you multiball enough or are naturally fast, you will have good "frequency" compared to others at your level, and will not be afraid of rallies, and so you have the option of playing a more patient consistent topspin game rather than trying to one-shot your opponent because you cant rally. This will lead to faster improvement. Of course eventually you will start playing games with people who have odd styles. Now because you have the basics down, your perspective changes, and you have more shots which gives you more options for strategies. You might miss the shots at first, but you know they are possible. Now you are on the path to great improvement. ------------- Nittaku Acoustic FL T05 Acuda S2 2.0mm |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 12:23am
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Yes but that only works with true fresh slate beginner kids. And many in the US won't have the patience for it. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 2:24am
do you think training twice a week is enough to start from scratch?
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Posted By: Vassily
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 3:44am
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Yes, we are not talking full mastery of all the strokes, just the basics. Basic sidestepping footwork. FH BH push, counter/drive, FH opening loop against backspin (multiball is good for the last two). Then blocking loops. Maybe adding spin to drives to make a loop for topspin, which is similar impact feeling to blocking loops (multiball here again). Maybe try to clean up the FH-BH and BH-FH transition with multiball. Should be doable in one year? Two sessions a week, couple of hours each time? If theres time, maybe step around and crossover footwork (not too much point having one and not the other) for opening on BH, or BH loop if they are slower. Dont really need to serve, maybe just a basic short backspin serve and a long one. Dont want to serve too much sidespin or it makes 3rd ball opening loops trickier. Dont need flick, maybe BH flick for really easy balls. Smashing/looping high balls maybe. Then they have the basics down, the only thing to do is to get faster and more consistent, and develop the minihop footwork. I dont really see how the patience of the player comes into it. Surely it is much more fun to play/learn like this than randomly hack around and play meaningless games of ping pong. The patience of the coach on the other hand, unless he/she is being paid, is the problem  .------------- Nittaku Acoustic FL T05 Acuda S2 2.0mm |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 4:22am
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There is another advantage that I forgot about, multiball allows a coach of inferior playing ability, to train with a high level player. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 5:22am
------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Vassily
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 6:22am
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I dont think you need to worry too much about trying to beat a 1200 player. So instead of trying to beat a 1200, then 1300, etc etc climbing up the ladder, it is better to give them a solid foundation which is good enough to beat say a 1800. Then it is just a question of match experience, which can be acquired by league matches, and their rating will rocket up in a matter of months. So they start slow (actually stationary), but go up fast. For off tempo shots, it is better to be fast (high frequency), than slow, since if you are fast you feel absolutely no time pressure for each of the (slower) off tempo shots. Then it becomes a problem of finding the right timing while having plenty of time. This is much easier than finding the right timing while feeling rushed for time. ------------- Nittaku Acoustic FL T05 Acuda S2 2.0mm |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 4:50pm
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Actually thats not true either. I know some "trained" people who can take on 1800 players easily since they can draw on their training. But give them someone unorthodox (pips player, some old asian players, anti players) they lose via unforced errors. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Vassily
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 5:14pm
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They have the tools to beat the pips, its just a lack of experience, which can easily be solved.
------------- Nittaku Acoustic FL T05 Acuda S2 2.0mm |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 5:17pm
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Pro's are obvious, you can groove your strokes very quickly, as you get to hit the ball a lot.
Con's, well, if your stroke technique is wrong and no one is there to correct it, then you are grooving a bad technique. Benefits to that? Also, if the feeder constantly feeds the ball to the same area, it might harm your ability to recover, as many players get lazy and don't get back in neautral position after each stroke. Might also harm their foot work, as the players might place his feet in one position and if the feeder is good enough, he never moves around. Don't get me wrong, multiball is an excellent form of practice, but there are things you have to think about when you implement it. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 5:17pm
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As for Yogi... Yes you can make it "close to it" but it's still not the real thing you get which is what I'm advocating. Real > close to it. I know plenty of players who have made it to decently high levels with little or no multi-ball so no multiball is not a requirement. And yes I agree that Basics are important... however you can have all the basics in the world and still lose. In the end goal, the goal is still to win games. I wouldn't hire a coach if it didn't aid me in winning. He could make me the most solid basics player ever, but if it doesn't translate into winning, then its pretty useless. A coach should be teaching and also helping the player win. Would you hire a coach that teaches you but all his players lose? And yes you can do pace changes in multiball, but again back to point one... its your simulated pace changes. When you see the real thing at that level, it's completely different. Your drilled strokes will not work since its constantly changing. As for the multiball within a certain alotted time, sure multiball is a "progression' of practice skills. As i've said before, most of these practice scenarios the player will never see at the lower levels especially the machine gunning. And if they do, there are many other variables that will make it completely different than what you drilled. I'm not saying that multiball has no benefit. As i've said before, multiball comes into benefit later when the player actually plays against someone who can actually give them those scenarios with perfect balls and good placement. In the beginning, I would much rather play practice points/scenarios vs the level of opponents they will have to face so they can work on serve return, recovery footwork, pushing, opening against underspin, and finishing balls they should finish. Training like this makes them see and experience what they'll play against so it will no longer be foreign to them as well as limits unforced errors which is the true killer in the beginning as well as when you move up. Alot of unforced errors usually come from just a sliver of doubt (which causes hesitation) entering their heads when they see a ball their brains can't automatically comprehend. Would simulated multiball fix these doubts or would actually seeing the ball in the conditions they'll see it (real) fix these conditions? Once they "graduate" from that level of opponents and can win consistently, then you throw them the next level up until they hit that multiball stage of opponents. Thats when multiball comes in handy. Also which would help morale for the student to keep going on the table tennis journey? Learning along with winning or learning and always losing? Morale is a huge part of learning TT because of the steep learning curve. If you lose that morale and zest for the game due to constantly losing, it doesn't matter how solid basics you have because you won't want to continue. Let me give you an example. You're a race car driver and you have a race... your goal is to win the race. You have a coach teaching you how to drive and you could train only for 2 hours a day until you're booted off. He gives you 2 choices of training, 1) Train in the "simulator" vs simulated opponents with a screen in front of you to learn the track and all it's nuances hoping the "simulator" could simulate as close as possible the track conditions/opponent skill. You can also use the simulator to practice driving on other tracks. 2) Jump in your actual race car on the actual track you'll race on vs some of the people you're going to race against to learn all the nuances of the track and opponents. Of course the coach in the car is with you teaching you along the way. This method, you get to actually experience the track and some opponents along with all its quirks. Which would you choose? Which would offer you the better chance to win your race if you could throw all the training time you had into one choice? Sure choice 1 would help you down the line, but we're not talking about down the line because you have to win this race consistently before you move on to more races. Which would give you the confidence in the future that if you ever see something similar again, that you could win everytime?
------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 6:56pm
In this exsample, you are completely ignoring the benefits of multiball, such as getting to play more strokes on alimited time then you would do if you played actual matches. So, give the options again, but if you pick to drive the real care, then 50% of your practice time will be spent doing other things then driving, such as checking out the tires, fuel up the car and stuff like that. Cause, most people only get to practice for a limited time and if the play matches, a lot of the time is spent picking up the ball. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/11/2011 at 7:01pm
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Sure I would still pick the real scenario because thats what you'll see. In a real game you'll have to stop and pick up balls and that will disrupt your rhythm. In a real race, you have to pay attention to your tires, your gas level, oil levels, brakes, you can't go 100% the whole time. You don't get the same ball in succession over and over again which allows you to get in a rhythm. People will aim to ruin your rhythm using all kinds of ways... taking their time walking around, toweling off, bouncing the ball, CHO-ing, etc etc. That way, when people do try to pull these things on you, it won't bother you at all because you've seen it and you know how to deal with it. You don't get that in multiball. You get to experience exactly what you will see instead of doing the same thing again and again which is unrealistic. Nothing beats the real thing. And when its time to face the real thing... you're no longer feeling weird in a new environment. Your mind is 100% focused.
As I said earlier... you can do your endless strokes all you want with your multiball in early levels... but when the conditions of that ball change, which will allow you to adapt better? The knowledge you got from the multiball but never seeing this new type of ball, or actually having that experience of having played against such a type of ball for hours... even if its half the time? Would you have rather raced on the actual track for half the time or only seen it in a simulator for double the time? A good example here would be many comments i've seen throughout the years about people having problems playing against people with pre-made setups but have no problems playing against normal setups because thats what they see everyday. This is due to the overwhelming change of the type of ball you get where your normal training won't work. Chances are you won't see a 2000 player with a premade setup but you will see it in the lower levels. Which would help you more in this scenario... the experience of having played against those type of people, or a coaches multiball? Like I said I've never seen a coach multiball with a premade to train for that.
Now as the player gets more advanced, the less random stuff you'll see in terms of normal strokes. When you do a bad push, you know the probability is high the higher levels will punish you with a drive, loop, smash. This is when mutilball makes ton of sense. However in lower levels, are you going to think of all random scenarios to train? You give someone a bad push, you have no clue if they're going to loop you. Some push it back short, some put random spin on it, some lob it back to you. Most of them know they can't loop consistently so they do whatever it takes to make you error. When I was beginning back in the day, thats exactly how I beat people who multiballed alot. I knew their training and muscle memory told them to do certain things so I did the complete opposite to throw them off. Then after they lost, you can tell by the look on their face which said "i've had training for so long, how did I lose to this." If you're a smart player... you know NOT to give them the scenario they trained for or they murder you. For example, if you play a blocker, you know not to recklessly loop the same pace at them. You give them stuff that will throw them off like varying the pace, varying spin, varying power of the loops so it's not like their training where they get into a rhythm blocking the same ball. You challenge them to come in and go out or left and right with different paces doing it on the move... any scenario you think they would not have trained and you'll usually win if you can consistently do it. Much like the advantage of long pips players at lower levels... they win because people don't see it alot and have no clue how to play against it. However, would it still throw you off if you had actual practice time against it and you've seen someone employ those strategies against you?
So again, I still think at lower levels for the average player, coached/supervised playing experience is of greater importance than multiball drills unless you're behind some form of world class program like the Chinese TT schools and your goal is to become a pro. Keep in mind, you can still play practice points with a tub of balls and not waste time picking up balls! ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 12:44am
------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 1:48am
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Learning multiball does not equate to learning basics. You can learn basics without extensive multiball training. I can learn and teach basics with 1 ball if I wanted to and I have done so. And I'm not saying multiball is useless (i've repeated this point many many times)... I'm saying they don't benefit the player in the lower levels as much as actual match play experience.You say yourself that doing something over and over again is beneficial which I agree with. However you fail to realize my point of... if you do something over and over again... and you don't see any of your opponents giving you what you trained, does that training benefit you more than actually playing against what you will see? This equates to the race car comparison which you failed to see. If you practice in a simulator, does it benefit you more than actual practice on the real track? Or another comparison, would you practice on a oval track knowing you're going to race a road course?
Like I said, I've seen plenty of players do heavy multiball from the start and watch them proceed to lose the majority of games they play because the people they play don't give them ANYTHING similar to their training. These people were nothing but multiballed for 3 solid years and I watched as a totally new person walk in with a premade and beat them consistently by pushing and just generally keeping the ball on the table. If you were the student who trained for 3 years... what would you think?
If you swapped out the multiball and subbed in match play experience, they would win AND be happy from their coaching. Then you could start doing multiball when the opponents they play can actually give them the stuff they train in multiball. I'm not saying you should never do multiball... I'm saying theres a better time for it.
And I find it kind of funny (and pretty insulting which was uncalled for because I've been nothing but civil in this discussion) that you assume I have no experience with good multiball training. I was multiball trained for almost 2 years when I was starting by a 2400 level coach. Same club Ethan Chua and them train at. I know from first hand experience what too much multi-ball training can do to you which is when I realized that logically, this isn't the best way to learn for alot of people who have no intention of being hardcore tourney players (which is the majority of people/most people just play in their own little friends groups)... Sure it may work for some people, but the majority of people I saw could play against higher level players because they gave them balls the training did but did horrible vs lower level players so they were stuck in the lower levels for a while until they got enough match play experience to get out of there. They would have progressed much faster if they learned how to play against the "slower, weirder" styles then progressed to people who play with more "general" styles which multiball is excellent training for. It makes no sense to train someone to defeat higher level players (which multiball is fantastic for) while ignoring the ways lower level players play. Sure you could defeat a 1700 level player, but if you in turn lose the next game to 1200-1500 players... are you truly that skilled?
The error of your strokes can be corrected in the same way as it can in multiball. The only difference is you will experience it in the actual environment. If something needs to be corrected, you can run that game scenario over and over in actual game context. Or the coach can keep giving you that context within a point to have you practice it. Multiball has similarities to training on a robot. It's not as artificial but it's still artificial. All coaches I've met are against robot training in the lower levels. If anything they encourage you to join tournies as soon as possible to get as much match play as soon as possible or challenge every single person in the club non stop. Of course this is mostly for the typical amateur player... the players who want to become pro's and can start from scratch, they'll use the China training method of drilling basics into them before letting them extensively play games. You train them depending on their end goals.... most amateur players won't ever need multiball training! All they want to accomplish is to be decently competitive in terms of winning and to enjoy the game. Not all players want to be multiballed to utter hell when none of the people they play against can play at that level!
As for mental training, if you've multiballed for years and you lose to someone with no training... is that mentally encouraging to the player? Players have told me it's pretty demoralizing for them. I've seen multiple cases of this in many different students with different coaches. When I talk to them... the first thing they say to me is... "I've been coached for X amount of years... I shouldn't have lost to that." The first thing I ask them is... "have you ever trained against what your opponent used against you" and "is what you saw anything like what you've been training" 90% of the time the answer is No. That is not generalization as you claim... it's straight feedback from various student players I've met throughout the years. If you can't believe straight feedback from multiple students and what they say would have helped them more in the lower levels, I don't know how else I could explain it to you.
Try to take yourself out of the context of being a "coach" for high levels who uses typical practices of other coaches and put yourself in the context of the "student" and what their goals are. As I said in the other thread with the father and his son, you train someone based on their end goals/opponents, mentality, ability, and how they learn the best.
You don't "China" train everyone you see. (Very similar to what APW has said in the past). ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:10am
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"Learning multiball does not equate to learning basics. You can learn basics without extensive multiball training. I can learn and teach basics with 1 ball if I wanted to and I have done so.And I'm not saying multiball is useless (i've repeated this point many many times)... I'm saying they don't benefit the player in the lower levels as much as actual match play experience. " really and where did you get this information? the purpose of the multiple for beginners is to introduce them to the right strokes and basics at the most effecient way and less time.. can you pls give me a source that says multiball is not good for beginners? i will not include my experiences as a coach teaching kids, high schools students, college varsities and even adult people from beginners to advanced players because people will just say im just bragging with no proof.. but here is an example pf a concrete proof that multiball is essential to a beginner player and let me quote: multiball are many, including, to: Develop individual strokes Increase the quality of training Increase the intensity of training Work on specific match situations Increase speed/agility Increase endurance Multiball is extremely important for beginners forming their basic techniques with balls being fed to a set position at a slow rate. Parents with reasonable hand-eye co-ordination can be taught to give multiball while waiting for their children at coaching. Multiball is also crucial at the elite level to increase the intensity and quality of training and for specific match situations. How to feed multiball The majority of multiball exercises are performed with a chair or table of table height besides the net, or with a container on the table next to the net, with a container of several hundred balls. The container should be less than net height. 2-6 balls are picked up with the non-playing hand with one ball at a time being thrown backwards at an angle onto the table and half-volleyed over the net to the appropriate position. Remember to watch the player at all times, not the balls." Page 236 ITTF Level 1 Coaching Manual I don't have to explain that do I? "You say yourself that doing something over and over again is beneficial which I agree with. However you fail to realize my point of... if you do something over and over again... and you don't see any of your opponents giving you what you trained, does that training benefit you more than actually playing against what you will see? This equates to the race car comparison which you failed to see. If you practice in a simulator, does it benefit you more than actual practice on the real track? Or another comparison, would you practice on a oval track knowing you're going to race a road course? " you still failed to see that multiball can adjust to those situations. if you have practiced multiball for years and lose to a low level player do not blame the system blame the coach. speaking of the training, does your multiball session is a repetition of the same strokes with no added difficulty? then there is something wrong with the coach! "Like I said, I've seen plenty of players do heavy multiball from the start and watch them proceed to lose the majority of games they play because the people they play don't give them ANYTHING similar to their training. These people were nothing but multiballed for 3 solid years and I watched as a totally new person walk in with a premade and beat them consistently by pushing and just generally keeping the ball on the table. If you were the student who trained for 3 years... what would you think? " multiballing for 3 yrs is no good. as what i have said the correct training is doing multiballs, teaching table drills and doing match plays. again do not blame the system it comes down to the coach how he can teach multiballs. have you asked those provincial chinese coaches if they think multiball is not good for beginners? i'd bet my life they will tell you you are wrong. "If you swapped out the multiball and subbed in match play experience, they would win AND be happy from their coaching. Then you could start doing multiball when the opponents they play can actually give them the stuff they train in multiball. I'm not saying you should never do multiball... I'm saying theres a better time for it." if you are familiar with the Swedish model for training and Chinese Model, you would see that multiballs are part of the training then goes the table drills and match plays. You will say, "not everyone are training to be pros". Wrong, those models are applicable for all levels from beginner to pros. "And I find it kind of funny (and pretty insulting which was uncalled for because I've been nothing but civil in this discussion) that you assume I have no experience with good multiball training. I was multiball trained for almost 2 years when I was starting by a 2400 level coach. Same club Ethan Chua and them train at. I know from first hand experience what too much multi-ball training can do to you which is when I realized that logically, this isn't the best way to learn for alot of people who have no intention of being hardcore tourney players (which is the majority of people/most people just play in their own little friends groups)... Sure it may work for some people, but the majority of people I saw could play against higher level players because they gave them balls the training did but did horrible vs lower level players so they were stuck in the lower levels for a while until they got enough match play experience to get out of there. They would have progressed much faster if they learned how to play against the "slower, weirder" styles then progressed to people who play with more "general" styles which multiball is excellent training for. It makes no sense to train someone to defeat higher level players (which multiball is fantastic for) while ignoring the ways lower level players play. Sure you could defeat a 1700 level player, but if you in turn lose the next game to 1200-1500 players... are you truly that skilled?" ok sources sources. do you know of Mr. Richard McAfee??? for over 30 years he has the coaching experience to be an authority in table tennis. He has written a book on "Table Tennis: Steps to Success". He is one of the national coaches in the states and one of the most respected also. By the way, he was the one who conducted our ITTF Level 1 Coaching Seminar which I have udergone and also the Level 1 ITTF Course Conductor's Course for Level 1 Coaches which I passed. Why is it that he emphasizes the use of multiball in teaching beginners coupled with table drills and matchplays in a single session? You said you have the experience hmmm, his experience is over 30 years who would be a more credible source than just the 2 of us arguing about our experiences? let me also use the example of my mentor. who not only taught me to play but also taught me how to coach. if you want to know his level and compare it to the one who multiballed you for 2 years. He reached top 16 of the Asian Cup a decade ago. He is a current national coach in my country. he teaches children also for free starting with level 0 kids. A kind of training that I have undergone because he taught me together with those 10 yr old kids. i was the only adult there. he told me, if you want to learn table tennis, learn the basics first thru multiball drills and i did. it was hard, frustrating sometimes but worth it. about the china training this and that. let me ask you what is your concept of training in china? you are quick to assume that the training in clubs in china would be all going for pro. my coach went there twice to train in this club with 70 tables. he would see kinds from all levels. some of them are trainiing for provincial players, others are just members of the club that wanted to train and play after school. why is it that they teach multiball to kids even at beginner levels? kids are allowed to play match plays there by the way even if they train. how bout the foreigners who train in china and im not talking about the pros. im talking about tourists. why is it that part of their training camp multiballs are given as part of the training in ALL levels? you would say its only in china, nope. clubs in europe that teaches kids does that also? and why not "china training or swedish training" your player? it is a proven and effective way of training why not? ------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:11am
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if you doubt my book source i can give you a page of the ITTF Coaching Manual. It is a standard that I choose to follow since it is a proven guide. Its in pdf form ------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:31am
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You're following a manual to coach? I mean really? Coaches I know don't follow manuals. They adapt to the people they coach which is the correct way to coach. They heed to goals of that individual instead of pressing what a manual tells them. You're going to discount feedback that students gave to follow a manual? What are you going to do if the student tells you they don't like multiballing... are you going to show them your ITTF Coaches Manual and say... BUT YOU HAVE TO! THE MANUAL SAYS SO! Books and recognized people in the world also said the Earth was flat... does that make it correct?
So what if I went up to you for coaching and told you I had no intention of playing other people other than my friends. You would really press multiballing to me instead of asking... how do your friends play? So for any other student to learn something, we have to follow some guide telling us what to do? Thats quite 1 dimensional coaching.
You still don't understand that what works for some people doesn't work for other people. You seem to really want to follow the "established" ways and discount anything that doesn't fit it.
Tell me this since you're citing training programs in China and Europe... do you think the average US club player who isn't planning to be a serious tournament player would spend the money, effort, and time to travel to another country to train for TT? How many average US players have you met that went that far who weren't aiming to be high level tournament players?
As a coach you're suppose to follow what your customer/student wants... not follow a guide telling you what to do. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:51am
If all you want to do is play with your friends, then why hire a coach? To me, hiring a coach shows some signs of ambition and then it's for the coach to help the student to become as good as possible. Multiball, when used correctly, is an excellent way of training. You claim that it don't reflect the real game, which is partly true, but when you are at the table, getting ready to go for that fh loop, which would you rather have, 200 fh's hit in matches, or 2000 fh's hit with multiball? The problem with only playing matches is that in a match, the focus is on winning, while multiball and other drills focus on improving. If you play to win, play the high percentage shots and wait for the opponent to make a mistake, but when you practice, give your self more shots to work with, as you can afford to miss a lot of shots while learning. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:56am
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People hire coaches for various reasons... some to fix strokes... some for tips to beat certain people... some to hit around with... some actually to play a match with the coach because they feel it'll be challenging...some for long term training... etc etc. AND... not alot of people will stay with 1 coach for multiple sessions. How would you teach a student if they could only afford 2 lessons with you... would you press multiball to them? Would you preach multiballing knowing that no one else but you could feed them (how many low level players you know can feed multiball good or who own a tub of balls with a enclosed location to multiball in?)? OR would you find out what their goal was and ADAPT... teach them something they could take with them to practice with after they exhaust their budget? My reason for getting my first lesson was solely to beat one person I had trouble with because he was so unorthodox. I only planned to get 1 lesson. Lets say you were my coach... would you have said... lets do multiball scenarios when you know nothing of the opponent I wanted to face and what made him unorthodox? How could you simulate his motions and movement with multiball?
The guide he states assumes that you'll be with that student long term. Is your ITTF manual a realistic scenario for a amateur player lookin for just a few lessons a year? How many people do you know who constantly gets lessons and can afford it? 30-100 bucks an hour depending on the coach is quite expensive to many people. Would you still press multiball if you had 1 lesson only? Don't know about you but I've met plenty of people who only afford like 1-2 lessons a year. Would you spend that hour multiballing them to hell or would you fix the most critical parts of their current game in relation to their current opponents to help them win?
Yogi states alot of books and sources... but he doesn't understand the situation/duration in which people get coaching. If you never ask their goal and just follow some guide, thats not good coaching. Very 1 dimensional which does not bend to different circumstances. I don't care how many years experience you or your sources have... if you don't find out what your student/customer wants and just press your agenda, you ARE NOT doing your job. Look already what happened when I flat out told him it was direct feedback from actual students of coaches I've met... he ignores it and presses his agenda of multiball.
I knew several people who hired coaches just to simply have someone to hit with because they didn't like playing random people. 40 dollars to have someone hit around with was like a drop in the ocean for him. Would you press multiball to these people if thats not their goal? Would you even know their goal? It's the coaches job to figure out the goal of the individual... NOT follow some guide or book. NOT everyone has the same agenda and a coach assuming their agenda is just flat out wrong.
As for which one I would pick, if I were playing the person I was practicing against, I would take the 200 against the actual person over the 2000 some foreign person was feeding. You can learn a ton about an opponent from 200 shots. Heck you can learn a ton about an opponent from the 2 minute warmup. But who knows... other people might pick the 2000. This perfectly supports what I was saying earlier about not everyone learning the same. If you only give them 1 choice (the multiball) and you never figure out what would benefit them more.... would you be a good coach?
In a match the focus is always winning? I know tons of people who play practice matches just to improve where they don't care if they win or not. It's what tons of coaches advocate also... to play to practice against REAL opponents. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 5:49am
------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: tomas.gt
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 5:51am
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Too many words in this thread ;)
The good thing about MBT is the intensity.
I prefer regular training, because almost every ball is unique and I have to read it and adapt to it. ------------- Kokutaku Bishu no.1 ST - H3N red , BTfly Spinart 2.1 black |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:01am
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" * i would press it on you because i know it is the right thing to do. i will not be the 1 dimensional coach rather you would be the narrow minded student. i coach not because i follow my students wants but i see to it they learn what they need to learn by doing multiball in a session plus other things. " This is exactly why your method is bad. You have no clue what my intentions are for hiring you to coach. You never asked what my goal was... you don't even know why i went to you. Instead you ignored everything on pressed your own agenda. You only follow established and standard methods from your book which is narrow minded.What you basically told your student is "its your way or the highway". Do it like this or get out...
What kinda coach is that?
You also say money isn't an issue... I don't know about you but coaches cost money here in the US. It surely isn't cheap either. If I went to you for advice for a certain issue.. and you went on rambling about your own little agenda... I'm sorry but you're a bad coach cause you don't take into account the feedback of students.
You say in your last paragraph, "i see to it that what my students needs are met not on what they want!" Really? So as you coach... you can care less about what they want? How can you meet their needs when you don't have a clue what their needs are?
"if you are not following a widely accepted standard and proven then you lack somethign as a coach."
This sentence is just... wow... That means you allow 0 innovation and adaptation in the way you teach. Let me give you a good example that will discount you...
The reverse penhold backhand or A+B style was not a widely accepted technique in China and was not taught for a long time. The first coach and players who invented it surely went against "widely accepted standards" vs the one sided penhold. In your standards... these people would be "lacking as a coach" when they invented something that pretty much revolutionized the modern Penhold Grip.
That means you just claimed LGL and his coaches are "lacking." ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:04am
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People hire coaches for various reasons... some to fix strokes... some for tips to beat certain people... some to hit around with... some actually to play a match with the coach because they feel it'll be challenging...some for long term training... etc etc. AND... not alot of people will stay with 1 coach for multiple sessions. How would you teach a student if they could only afford 2 lessons with you... would you press multiball to them? Would you preach multiballing knowing that no one else but you could feed them (how many low level players you know can feed multiball good or who own a tub of balls with a enclosed location to multiball in?)? OR would you find out what their goal was and ADAPT... teach them something they could take with them to practice with after they exhaust their budget?
*by the way i teach a lot of students for free but going back on the topic yes i would see to it they do multiballs to see what weaknesses they have and what areas they need to improve on. also you are limiting my topic to just multiballs , i said i couple it with table drills and match plays. My reason for getting my first lesson was solely to beat one person I had trouble with because he was so unorthodox. I only planned to get 1 lesson. Lets say you were my coach... would you have said... lets do multiball scenarios when you know nothing of the opponent I wanted to face and what made him unorthodox? *would it cost me too much if i ask you how he plays since you are planning to beat him im sure you know what are his common strokes and things he does and then apply it starting on the things with a multiball session? then with table drills and match plays? The guide he states assumes that you'll be with that student long term. Is your ITTF manual a realistic scenario for a amateur player lookin for just a few lessons a year? How many people do you know who constantly gets lessons and can afford it? 30-100 bucks an hour depending on the coach is quite expensive to many people. Would you still press multiball if you had 1 lesson only? Don't know about you but I've met plenty of people who only afford like 1-2 lessons a year. Would you spend that hour multiballing them to hell or would you fix the most critical parts of their current game in relation to their current opponents to help them win? the ittf manual is designed for people on the world who are so poor and havent even seen a racket or afford one. this only means you are clueless about the outreach programs used by the ITTF in order to reach for poor countries. coaching like in other sports costs a thing! deal with it life is not fair. in the first place we are talking about coaching here, so if you want a coach you need to pay! I knew several people who hired coaches just to simply have someone to hit with because they didn't like playing random people. 40 dollars to have someone hit around with was like a drop in the ocean for him. Would you press multiball to these people if thats not their goal? Would you even know their goal? It's the coaches job to figure out the goal of the individual... NOT follow some guide or book. NOT everyone has the same agenda and a coach assuming their agenda is just flat out wrong. * how do you know this? have read the book? if you have read the book you wouldnt even be saying these things. talking about goal setting, yes it is taught by the book. As for which one I would pick, if I were playing the person I was practicing against, I would take the 200 against the actual person over the 2000 some foreign person was feeding. You can learn a ton about an opponent from 200 shots. Heck you can learn a ton about an opponent from the 2 minute warmup. But who knows... other people might pick the 2000. This perfectly supports what I was saying earlier about not everyone learning the same. If you only give them 1 choice (the multiball) and you never figure out what would benefit them more.... would you be a good coach? *i never said multiballing is good alone. i said it needs to be coupled with table drills and matchplays why dont you get that? by the way even if you record teh match play of that opponent, you wont learn that much. In a match the focus is always winning? I know tons of people who play practice matches just to improve where they don't care if they win or not. It's what tons of coaches advocate also... to play to practice against REAL opponents. *the general assumption again, your sources pls other than just generalizing? and yes they want to improve. that is wht if you have the CHANCE to go to china no matter what level you are multiballing is part of the training plus the matches and table drills! ------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:16am
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"This is exactly why your method is bad. You have no clue what my intentions are for hiring you to coach. You never asked what my goal was... you don't even know why i went to you. Instead you ignored everything on pressed your own agenda. You only follow established and standard methods from your book which is narrow minded. " goals are met due to the methods used! and who told you that i do not ask my students about their goals? not only i ask about their goals i also add things that they need to learn and reach! so a book that is widely used and is considered a good standard because it was written by people who have lots of experiences in coaching is being narrow minded? "if you are not following a widely accepted standard and proven then you lack somethign as a coach." This sentence is just... wow... That means you allow 0 innovation and adaptation in the way you teach. Let me give you a good example that will discount you... The reverse penhold backhand or A+B style was not a widely accepted technique in China and was not taught for a long time. The first coach and players who invented it surely went against "widely accepted standards" vs the one sided penhold. In your standards... these people would be "lacking as a coach" when they invented something that pretty much revolutionized the modern Penhold Grip. *i innovate according to what i see my student realy needs not on what they want! the standards now are to use multiball drills! you are wayy wayy out of the topic! if the standards are widely used by good tabel tennis countries WHY NOT FOLLOW THEM????? that is the point here! until additional rules are made to change the game i dont think there are other standards you need to follow. *according to coaches i have talked with liu gouliang imposes on what he wants his players to learn because he knows he needs them. we can go back again to my sources but then again you will ignore them because it trashes your so called experiences. lets just go to the bottom line then. since you are speaking about your experiences, the experience of a US national coach like mr maafee should not be treated as effective because he has been teaching for 30 yrs about table tennis and he know hwta are the most effective ways to teach? compared to the little experience you have and i dont think you even coached! ------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:19am
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" i coach not because i follow my students wants but i see to it they learn what they need to learn by doing multiball in a session plus other things. "
"and who told you that i do not ask my students about their goals?"
You told me this using the first phrase. You don't care what your student wants... only what you feel they need.
And how am I giving Assumptions?
I'm giving you real scenarios of people I knew who actually sought coaching and their goals and testing you to see how you as a coach would handle the situation. All you're saying... did you read the book? What about the book? What are your sources? This is a good example how 1 dimensional the book makes you. You also ask how would I know their goals... well guess what... THEY TOLD ME! I don't have to read a book to ask someone... what are your goals? Does your book cover asking people? Clearly it doesn't because you don't care what their agenda is per your own words... only what you feel the need.
I told you lessons are expensive here in the US... then you went on about poor people and trying to side step the money issue saying you teach for free. Unfortunately coaches aren't free in the US and other parts of the world... they're quite expensive. And cost is a HUGE factor in coaching as well as how many lessons you buy. Most people I know only buy 1-2 if you're lucky within a span of months.
*would it cost me too much if i ask you how he plays since you are planning to beat him im sure you know what are his common strokes and things he does and then apply it starting on the things with a multiball session? then with table drills and match plays?
You're going to multiball me based on word of mouth descriptions? Thats the high quality coaching your ITTF book advocates? You would have no clue how to multiball a style of a person based on word of mouth. What if I told you his movements threw me off... how would you multiball that without seeing his movements? How would you know where he places the ball, how spinny they are, how powerful they are? How would you multiball any of it without observing the player I wanted to beat with me playing him? Thats the ONLY way for you to truly identify all the different areas and if multiball is suitable or not.
This is a good scenario of where your coaching method makes no sense per the needs and goal of the student. Per what you just said... you would just "guess" to your best of your ability based on what I said. You say your multiball can be a accurate simulation... How accurate do you think you could make your simulation if you have never seen this person I wanted to beat playing me?
If i said his shots were spinny... how do you know my ranges for what I feel is "spinny"? Would you waste 5 minutes of lesson time feeding me different balls and getting my opinion? Same for all the other variables you would have to figureout to give me a accurate simulation. You could spend the whole lesson alotted time just trying to figure out what my word of mouth description means. And what if I told you I had no clue why I do so bad against him (which is what some people say when they are totally baffled), would you just make up some random multiball plan and hope it helps me against him? Thats a very "vague" way to train and I don't think any students I know would pay $40 an hour for that. So again I say...
You say your multiball can be a accurate simulation... How accurate do you think you could make your simulation if you have never seen this person I wanted to beat playing me? How accurate can it be if you never played the person yourself to actually feel the types of balls he puts out. We all know watching isn't a accurate barometer. Did the ITTF book forget to mention this particular scenario? or did it assume I would be your student for more than 1 session? Take into account that alot of people base if they want to come back for more lessons per how you handle the first lesson and you just missed a ton of IMPORTANT points you needed to know to give your multiball simulation. That doesn't give the student alot of confidence in the simulation you're going to provide.
Now heres my point that I've been trying to make to you the ENTIRE time... in a scenario like this, what if you were able to actually watch me play him and correct me as I was playing him? Would that not be better than your simulation? Which would help me more if I only bought 1 lesson from you? The real thing + the tips and correction you can provide.... or your simulation which you wouldn't have a clue and would be based on guesses and assumptions? ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:25am
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So just because someone has 30 years experience means they are automatically correct for everyone? Is there a law that says people can't question them?
Just because a book was written... means its automatically correct and can't be deviated from?
Dam thats news to me. You must still believe the world is flat then since it was written in books. I think it didn't change until someone questioned it.
*i innovate according to what i see my student realy needs not on what they want! the standards now are to use multiball drills! you are wayy wayy out of the topic! if the standards are widely used by good tabel tennis countries WHY NOT FOLLOW THEM????? that is the point here! until additional rules are made to change the game i dont think there are other standards you need to follow.
Why is it off topic? I used your very own quote and gave you an example of something that was "against standards" and is now mainstream only after someone went against standards. If we used your method, then the RPB shouldn't have been used because 1 sided penhold was the "accepted standard" for ages. You just don't like it cause its against what you said.
"lets just go to the bottom line then. since you are speaking about your experiences, the experience of a US national coach like mr maafee should not be treated as effective because he has been teaching for 30 yrs about table tennis and he know hwta are the most effective ways to teach? compared to the little experience you have and i dont think you even coached!"
When have I said that his experience is not treated as effective? When have I said any training in China or Europe was wrong or evil. If anything I respect the way they train and I always have. I've said all along... it may work for some people... but not others. Theres situations where it calls for that training, and situations where other training would be better towards the student depending on their goals. I clearly know people who it didn't work it and nothing you say or cite can discount them. I clearly told you there are some situations where it's not ideal for people in a calm and civil fashion. You're just choosing to ignore it because I don't agree with you or your sources 100%. I even told you that multiple students have told me if they could do it all again, they would have chosen game play experience over the multiball they got in lessons and you still won't respect the opinion of the actual people taking the lessons... only what you feel is right... same treatment you give your students. Also, you're a Mod... don't try to insult me by calling my experiences "little" when you know nothing about me or the experiences of the students I've encountered. If you choose to discount them just to push your own agenda with you and your ITTF coaching book, thats on you. As a coach... feedback from your students is something you should prize. If you just discount feedback just to do whatever you feel they need... then you are ignoring a vital part of coaching and that reflects back on you with you unable to adapt to different students per how they learn.
I can definitely agree to say that we agree just to disagree... but if you as a Mod wish to push this into some insult throwing flamewar... don't be surprised if I really start obliging as I have some pretty negative comments about the way you coach and the way you treat your students. But I have a feeling it'll lead to the abuse of power if it pushed that far and you would start suspending people just because they disagree with you. But then again... I don't really care if I get suspended so do your worse. Qualifications of you or your cited sources don't mean jack crap to me if what you teach isn't logical and doesn't make sense per the situation. George W Bush has the qualification of being a former President of the USA and we all know what the majority of the world thinks of him and his policies. He's written books and made things into law too... doesn't mean people have to agree with it. Same goes with you and your cited sources. Some will agree... some won't. However, I have the will to question the status quo and thats how new views are communicated. If no one questioned the status quo, everything would be only 1 way... 1 dimensional and this game wouldn't be as great as it could be if people didn't question what was "accepted" to make it better.
But a coach is a coach and I still respect that you are willing to teach people freely as I do so if you want to continue with this lil debate as it gets more heated... I have no problems with it... in fact bring it on. Me and APW use to get into it also and it grew into mutual respect after we understood each others views. Some of the views I've used are actually from him which made me see coaching methods here differently with the way they "China" train people who have no intention on being serious tourney players trying to make their strokes perfect and their basics perfect through crazy multiballing. Something that can not be achieved realistically. Sometimes you need to work with what you have and make it the best it can be using other methods with more realistic training. This is one of those cases. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 10:53am
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Rack, when you hire a coach, I assume you do this to learn? If he should be able to teach you something, he is most likely better then you, correct? So, why question his methods? Not saying the coach is always right and I do agree that we all have different goals with out game, but you are "attacking" multiball as it was bad, when in reality, it's a very good exercise for those with real ambitions to improve their game in the long run. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 1:49pm
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Sure I hire a coach to improve. But if I realize that his teaching method does not work for me as well as another method... don't I have the right as his paying customer to ask the coach to try another method? A coach knows his ways to teach... but he does not know the person and how the person learns best. However, I as a person, know myself much more than a coach does. If I feel an alternative method would help me learn easier... would the coach me right to override me with his agenda? However if Yogi was the coach, he's saying he wouldn't care what I thought would help me... no matter what he would push multiball on me which is where I strongly disagree. This is the point of the whole thing... How many times have I said... multiball isn't bad... there are situations where another method may be better? I probably said it over 5 times already. I've also said... multiball is great... when the student actually runs into opponent levels where they can utilize the training more. Is that an attack on Multiball?
Even in your own quote Speed... you say
"very good exercise for those with real ambitions to improve their game in the long run."
The key phrase being "in the long run." Thats exactly my point.... multiball helps most in the long run when you start playing good skilled players. However, in the beginning, matchplay's importance and general experience is of higher priority if you had to choose 1 or the other to do more.
Speed... if you were brand new to the game and you had 1 week to train before a tiny tourney... and you could only pick one to train for 1 hour a day... multiball or surpervised actual practice points against people with differing setups... would you choose multiball and play no practice points? Which would give you a better chance to win if when you stepped into that tourney with only multiball experience from a high level coach and you run into some 1000 player using a premade worn out anti like setup or wacky pips setup (which is quite common) which gives you balls nothing like you multiballed so all your multiball strokes don't work?
Wouldn't the supervised matchplay experience have helped u more? And after you beat this person and you started moving up in the ranks... lets say you're 1600 a few months later and you see people start to consistently be able to attack you or you're able to consistently attack other people... wouldn't multiball make more sense to start learning then? ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 1:53pm
| Multiball is best in the beginning because they cannot sustain a rally yet. So best to drill some correct form in. Then they are ready for a single ball. |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:00pm
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So you can't sustain a rally with learning using 1 ball? I don't know about that one... I learned using 1 ball just doing a basic FH FH drill then BH BH drill as did many people I know. How often do you see low level players come to a club with a giant tub of balls trying to multiball? Almost never... yet they're able to learn fine. Are you trying to tell me if you don't multiball... you can't be good?As I said... multiball is definitely not a requirement at that level. If it was that important... you would see people everywhere start buying tubs of balls and trying to learn how to feed. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:11pm
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i've seen many people (and i train beginners) who have real trouble sustaining a rally. especially when you're trying to work on hand eye coordination, then on form, then on recovery.
this is what i do for my club and what the team does for the women's team. when we have to rebuild, we do so from scratch.
it really helps them loosen up their arm. now also remember that matchplay does help too, that goes without saying.
we've got a tournament in about 1.5 months so right now it's 1 hour multiball and 1 hour free play.
so that's my point of view =) ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: dici
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:15pm
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To me, 1 ball FH to FH and BH to BH is the most basic drill requirement that all player who want to be some what pro should able to do it. Like for most of the players (even though 99% are casual) over my place, there is nobody that able to do this drill with me, except one player. While multiball provides another way of improvement. As I recall, we learn our basic forehand and backhand drill with only single ball. Then we practice the loop/loop drive with multiball. But if both of you and your training partner has a good ball control, there are some drills that does not necessary require multiball at all, and still able to keep yourself move around the table (see Ryu Seung Min's forehand drive drill in youtube). |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:25pm
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Right TPGH... but at your level... multiball is quite useful. You'll see what you see in multiballs quite often at your level. You're over 1500 if I remember correct?
However, at lower levels, is multiball required in order to learn the game? Certainly not. Like I said in the other post... if it were THAT important... you would see every single new player buy a tub of balls and try to learn how to feed. I don't know ONE person who did that and I've met alot of people throughout the years.
Most people I know who moved up the fastest... from 1500 and under... used 1 ball to learn and drill. Then they made it a point to challenge EVERYONE for max experience. I had one guy... totally new to the game... in 3 weeks he went from noob who couldn't counterhit well to demolishing 1650 players using 1 ball to train and all matchplay. He doesn't even know what multiball is! I have another friend where I work... he's never done multiball either... he played Albert (Cagaragesales) who was 1800 at the time and took him to max with some premade from India (the brand was something ridiculous and funny like Kung Fu rubber or something)... later beat him. He hasn't had coaching nor multiballing.
My point is... it's quite possible to be good without ever touching multiball and never let any coach no matter how good he is... tell you it's not possible. If you can still get good without it... how really important is it? However try to flip the situation... can you ever get consistently good without extensive matchplay experience? ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:31pm
that guy sounds like a magical example of a gifted gifted person. haha.
I agree with you about 1 ball and matchplay working a lot for people under a certain level playing better players- that's also how I got to a certain level so fast in the first year or so. But I disagree that you'd see a bunch of people buying balls learning to feed. That would involve people having to get past laziness, and go into the actual 'training' side of the game, which even a lot of serious players are unwilling to do as much as they should. I think it IS important. It's the most important training method in my opinion. It simulates match like situations at a much higher consistency than one ball, and it allows you to push the limits of how fast you should move. You CANT do that with one ball. The point of multiball half the time is to go beyond what you will ever see in a match, to get you accustomed the reading the ball faster and moving faster than you will have to in a match, but doing things you'll do in a match. A great example is multiball for choppers, and another good example is the multiball video of xu xin just doing FH's at the table.
you can end up pretty good without ever having used multiball. It depends on the person and their perception of the game. But also, you will never go beyond a certain level without using it.
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Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:34pm
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for the 1500+ players, it's a lot more helpful. but for people who are just learning the game, it's useful too. but definitely not a must. i just look at it this way. with a 1 ball drill. it would take about a month to learn fh and bh counters. this takes into account the really slow pace, breaking down bad habits, and recovery.
when we moved away from the 1 ball drill and brought in a bucket, that time was reduced to 2 weeks. keep in mind these are people (guys and girls) who barely touched the paddle.
of course you can learn pretty well and quickly with 1 ball. but my emphasis is on the ability to provide repitition. ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:38pm
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I must know alot of magical gifted people then! But great counter point... back to what you were saying Bee... as you said... multiball pushes the limits of how fast you can move.... do you think a 1200 player can push you to that limit consistently to actually make use of that training? Most 1200 players I know push and push... and push... maybe make 1 FH outta 5. You can totally learn how to loop underspin correctly with 1 ball. Also you say it simulates match conditions beyond normal consistency which is totally correct... I agree... but would you face anyone in the lower levels that consistent? And like I said... I totally agree multiball is important... just later around 1500+ when you actually see people have the skill to push you that far. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:40pm
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Correct TPGH... but feeding isn't rocket science. if you want to do it nice and slow.. a noob can get a tub of balls and push it to you to random locations. It might be slower... but they can still do it. Why don't we see people doing it then if it's such a critical skill to need under 1500? We see people buying robots for thousands of dollars... yet they don't buy a tub of balls for 100 bucks and train with friends? Like I said... I haven't seen it... have you?
Those old asian guys in clubs who tend to beat people being consistent and tricky... do you think they've ever multiballed in their life? If it's as critical as everyone says it is... you should be able to walk up to anyone in a club... and the majority will say to you.... yes I have multiballed... but that certainly wouldn't be reality. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:41pm
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lol. you do have a point rack. i've seen a lot of people try and feed multiball. and it's not even the hard stuff yet. basic slow fh topspin. but they fail with placement of the ball. you'll get some wide, some close to the elbow, some miss the table, and maybe a few get it in right. now lets move onto pushes, that's even worse from ppl i've seen. pushes end up being high, too fast, too deep, the list goes on.
it took me 4 months to learn how to feed. and i'm only ok at it. i just feel that people who are new to the sport don't see the use of multiball but would rather invest in a robot. the robot is great and all, but someone who can feed well is much better and cheaper  ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:44pm
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Exactly I finally got through to you! Now you see my point the whole time! Multiball is definitely beneficial... I've been saying all along it has been. But it definitely doesn't end you and your table tennis aspirations if you don't have it. You don't have to have it forced down your throat like Yogi would. You can be just as good just playing matches and having someone correct you (which is how majority people learn!)... AND it would be more realistic... AND it would teach you about all the different styles of play... something multiball struggles to do at times which is the major CON that the poster wants. This is why people have trouble with long pips at lower levels. I've never seen a coach multiball someone with long pips... so when it comes time and you run into one... you've literally never seen it and you'll lose if you haven't had the play experience. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:51pm
getting to 1650 in 3 weeks? you know a lot of people like that? California is where it's at lol.
But I was agreeing with you- under a certain level it's not as big of a deal. Like you said- most guys at 1200 aren't going to give you conistent balls, they don't even know what they are doing half the time. But for overal development with a goal of getting to somewhat of a high level i think it's a necessity. I personally feel like in my game right now, I'm not going to get much better unless i really start doing things like that. I've gotten better in the last year simply by becoming better at reading the game. I need more robotic drilling now. The thing that hurts is that most people are too lazy to drill or multiball. They are happy playing matches. I almost want to teach my girlfriend how to feed haha.
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Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 2:56pm
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i only emphasize these 3 key items when feeding: control, tempo, and repitition. if a feeder can't do that, then they need to practice.
the point that i am trying to get across (1 ball vs multi feed) is that it cuts down on the "downtime". by downtime, i refer to bad hits, going to pick up the ball every time, lack of muscle memory/repitition, and most importantly a crazy old asian man yelling at you ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 3:41pm
Yeah I know a few people who hit 1600 with minimal training and coaching. The 1650 guy works in the same company and I just taught him basics... FH FH Drill, BH BH drill, basic strokes, basic pushing, basic serving, how to use Chinese rubber, basic tactics. Within 2 days he was doing FH FH drill rock solid to my amazement. Then I taught him how to forehand loop... within 1-2 weeks his loop power and spin he could generate was insanely strong... even higher than my own because he does MMA training so his explosive leg strength is pretty crazy. Week 3 he started going to TT clubs and played here doing pure gameplay. He was just overpowering people with his FH. Any low level push, he could loop kill at a amazing rate for someone with 3 weeks experience. He did have trouble when I made him face my friend Nick (Comeglan) on MyTT... whos around 1800 and gave him more heavier spinny balls. But being able to beat 1600 level players in 3 weeks is amazing to me starting from scratch. I know people who been playing for years and aren't 1600.
And I totally agree with you about needing multiball once you hit consistent opponents which was what I was trying to get through to everyone. Around 1500 and up... people are starting to hit the level where they can push you to your speed limits. 1500 and under... they don't really know what they're doing. Not having Multiball training in the higher levels can seriously limit you in certain aspects but it's still not a end all. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 3:47pm
LOL I totally agree... but theres another "Con" to that that I mentioned earlier. Alot of multiball you get into a good rhythm and stuff works. In real game play, people will delay or do something to get you out of rhythm... so being able to adapt your multiballing to actual gameplay is critical. Thats really hard to do under 1500 when almost everything does not come in rhythm... but more random. Over 1500... it gets much easier when other people can at least begin to match the consistency. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 3:49pm
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again a good point =). good think i get my girls to play games in between practices too. we have them play 2 rounds of around the world followed by 1 game against controled blocks ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 3:55pm
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So I thought of this to sum up my entire point while I was driving into work... to make my point as easy as possible.
Multiballing is a supplement training method to actual Gameplay and quite effective. However, Multiballing is not required for you to become a great amateur player. On the other hand, Actual Gameplay experience is required and vital to becoming a great amateur player.
You can easily be a great player with only Actual game play experience and 0 multiball experience... but it's VERY VERY difficult to become a great player if your Multiball experience is high but your Gameplay experience is low.
So taking those 2 points into mind... Gameplay experience will always be more important than Multiballing at lower levels and in ways even higher levels but you will suffer and limit yourself a little if you do not start multiballing by around 1500. Anything under that... its definitely not required no matter what Yogi and his ITTF handbook says.
Be realistic with your goals and don't be afraid to tell a coach how you think you would learn better. A coach can suggest methods to teach you... but it's up to the player to give the coach feedback if it's working or not. The coach works for you... not the other way around... if one way doesn't work, you have every right to ask him/her for alternative methods you think would help you learn better. Only you as a person truly know what methods really jell with the way you learn stuff. A coach is there to support you... not push you into one singular direction. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 3:56pm
Yeah thats awesome... Playing with girls is always fun... we need more girls in the TT community! ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:05pm
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it's just so tough......=/ recruiting girls is near impossible. plus from a college standpoint, it's not very popular.... ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 4:10pm
Yeah seriously... I know what you mean. I trained a few up to around 1200 then they just stopped which was a shame. It's always fun to get out of the monotony of a "sausage" fest if you know what I mean.  ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 5:50pm
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I still maintain that multiball is an exellent method, regardless of level. Sure, if you are 1200 and want to improve for the tournament next week, then it might not be the best method, but if you want to continue to improve your game over time, then, if it's done properly, no other method beats multiball. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:08pm
"I know many people who look so good in multiball training and can't really play even close in a match."
Exactly my point when you rely on overmultiball and don't put enough match play experience. That's exactly what I see in alot of coached players... too much simulated multiball... not enough match play... and they can't keep it close in a match even with all that extensive multiball training. Multiball training is a supplement. No matter how much you get awesome at multiballing... nothing replaces true match play experience. Multiballing is fine... but you MUST have more match play experience as it's just more required to be good. This where many of the amateur coached players meet their down fall... too much multiball... not enough match play.
"-feeling the groove when into the rhythm of a drill"
Thats another one of the cons as I said... in real games people don't let you get into a rhythm. They do anything possible to not let you feel like your in your training session or multiball drill. It's the smart thing to do.
If anything, to fix this if I really wanted to multiball someone and "simulate"... I would let them get into a rhythm for a few balls... then make them miss... stop... make them pick up a ball or 2... and return... see how they recover. Do they miss the first few balls? Or can they return to their rhythm. Now that would be much more accurate but I don't see any coaches doing this. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 6:32pm
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And thats great! But under 1500... you don't need tons of cardio, footwork, rhythm... the under 1500 game is pretty slow... lots of slow pushes... lots of weird spin... lots of weird baiting for errors, lots of "babying" shots because they don't have to confidence/consistency to full power it yet. If someone can't keep up at that pace... then heck they need to go lose weight by running and working out because the under 1500 game is pretty darn slow. Over 1500 is when cardio, footwork, rhythm begin to start showing as heavy necessity.
As TPGH said... most under 1500's barely know what they're doing other than pushing... maybe a trick serve, and inconsistent FH's and BH's openings + finishes. All you need is to be consistent/controlled... don't try to kill everything... and be precise. Basically limit unforced errors because people will be baiting you to "kill" balls. You can still safely "dink" balls in knowing that its almost a 50 50 chance for the opponent to do a unforced error. You can still win by lobbing balls because people don't train that. Multiball is definitely not "critical" to learning those points but actually playing those people is more a "critical need". Multiball CAN help you learn (its supplemental!)... but its not required... especially not as much as Yogi says it does.
Like I said... you can get to 1500 with 0 multiball and all match play experience. Many people who never get formalized coaching can easily achieve that and its done every day because not everyone can afford a coach to multiball them. Again, you don't really see non coached people bringing a tub of balls to multiball with. So again... it's not that critical if you don't multiball...much like you don't see everyone doing the "China" training. We all know that the training can help... but its not required for what most amateur players want which is to enjoy the game.
I see alot of people saying multiball is hands down THE best way for beginners to learn... if this were true... why don't we see everyone multiballing (coached and non coached players)? Wouldn't it just be established that everyone needs to learn how to feed... everyone needs to learn how to multiball? Just like everyone needs to learn the FH FH and BH BH drill? Fact of the matter is... the majority do not multiball yet they are still able to achieve good playing levels even when they are able to feed... albeit slower... but still they are able to feed.
AGAIN!... I am not saying multiball doesn't help... it does... I'm saying its not required... I can't make this clear enough!
Let's be realistic with what we see in the clubs... if multiballing was THAT important... every single person would catch on and be bringing in tubs of balls to try to multiball just like how people EJ in the lower levels... because they think it helps their game improve. If people can afford to EJ... then they could surely buy 20-30 balls. If multiballing alone was a free ticket to being a great player... EVERYONE would be doing it. But it's not... and the majority of amateur players don't do it.... it doesn't stop them from being good players. And it's not because people can't feed because as people said in prior posts... you can still feed slow and still be able to multiball... yet people still don't do it.
You can not get to a consistent 1500 with only heavy multiball and very little to 0 match play experience... I've never seen that happen. So again... in the lower levels... Match play experience is more important and critical than multiballing just for the fact above.
After 1500, multiball becomes more a critical need along with match play... around 60% match play... 40% multiball. Thats when you really start needing the cardio, footwork, rhythm because people will start really pushing you that far instead of just "keeping it on the table" like under 1500's do. That when you'll need the experience + the training to be able to beat certain people.
Agree on that? Thats about as clear as I can make it lol. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 7:45pm
------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 7:58pm
| You can use a single ball, but it will take a much longer time because you are just going to be picking up balls. And drilling in bad technique into muscle memory, when they use bad technique to keep the ball on the table. |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 8:11pm
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kenney that is the point there. rack is saying that multiballs should not be used for beginners because he is more concerned with his techniques rather than his basics. so why is basics is given much emphasis in china even in beginners using multiballs again??? rack will answer, not everyone can multiball or you dont see everyone multiball in clubs in the us. so because rack thinks because everybody doesnt not multiball or most ppl do not he automatically thinks that multiball is not good for beginners, great! he does not want to use the china way arguement because it proves him he is wrong. he will just go back to his arguement i cant afford a good coach this and that. it only proves that this is only his opinion and it is never founded on anything solid. nor he has any real formal coaching experience to say this. the number of people not doing multiballs in the states do not affect the fact that multiballing is needed for beginners! that is the point here! givig the arguement that you can develop a player to 1500 with no multiball is also a flawed arguement because we are talking about the importance of multiball on teaching it to beginners! the issue of its availability is not the point here but its importance, if you are not able to find a coach who can give you a multiball drill it does not affect that FACT that multiball is important to beginners. that is the ideal situan, if you can find a coach to give you multiballs for basics as a beginner then it is the best thing! that is the point of the arguements here. ------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 8:28pm
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Haha how many times do I have to tell you... I never said it wasn't good for beginners. I said only multiball training ALONE is not good for beginners. I said Match Play takes a higher priority than multiball. Get it through your thick skull instead of just being so 1 dimensional with your little coaching book. There are MULTIPLE ways to do things.... not just YOUR way.
Stop trying to push your China training agenda... not everyone trains like they do in China. Not everyone goes to table tennis school or has the time to multiball everyday. Is it that hard to understand... people just play just to play instead of being multiballed to hell? You're using China as the example... are the players in the USA the same as Chinese Players? Do they share the same lifestyle? Is table tennis in the USA anywhere NEAR important as it is in China? Do you REALLLLY think the average club player comes to the club to multiball?
Thats utterly ridiculous to expect EVERYONE to train to same way. If people trained in the USA like they trained in China... there would be no reason many top players in the US travel to China to train if the training was EXACTLY the same. It's a COMPLETELY different culture.
Is the Chinese training realistic for average club player in the US who maybe buys 1-2 lessons? How many BAD HABITS they've been doing for years do you think you can fix in 1-2 hours time? You think multiballing them for 2 hours will fix BAD HABITS they've had for years? You're using a situation that is completely different from REALITY! OPEN YOUR MIND and ADAPT instead of pushing your little agenda. Understand that what you want... is not what everyone wants.
You say multiball is SOOOOO important and utterly required. Why can players hit 1500 with ZERO multiball? Are you saying the majority of the worlds table tennis players have all done multiball since its sooo important? If you are you're totally not in touch with reality and the average club player. And you say...
"the issue of its availability is not the point here but its importance, if you are not able to find a coach who can give you a multiball drill it does not affect that FACT that multiball is important to beginners"
How can availability not be important???? ANYONE can multiball. ANYONE can buy a tub of balls and feed to another person. They might feed at a slower pace than a advanced player... they might not be as accurate in their simulation... but ANYONE can feed. It's not rocket science to hit a ball to someone to hit. Yet no average club players do it without coaching.... you haven't answered why yet... OR does your little ITTF book not tell you why? Maybe its because NOT EVERYONE MULTIBALLS because they feel its NOT NECESSARY for what they want to achieve.
You say in the other response... you train for what they need....
What if you can't fix it? Not everyone can have PERFECT form and PERFECT strokes like highly trained players. Especially people who started training late who have had bad habits for YEARS. Believe it or not... the majority of the world DOES NOT go through any training at all. You think everyone goes through stroke training? So if they tell you they want to loop with their imperfect form... you'll refuse to teach them? Thats why your 1 dimensional coaching makes no sense. Instead of seeing the students circumstances and whats realistic... you only have a singular goal to China train them.
Who are you to decide what different people CAN and CAN NOT do? Believe it or not... most people play the game... TO HAVE FUN. NOT to be told you MUST multiball... especially if they can readily achieve their goals without it.
"using your logic again about the book saying the world is flat i will also believe its flat then"
Thats exactly why you're such a horrible coach regardless of how much experience you have. All you believe is what you read in a book instead of REALITY and REALISTIC situations of students. Such a narrowminded way to see things. The fact that you need a ITTF Coaching Guide is already laughable. If you're soo high and mighty with years of experience... you wouldn't need a guide to tell you what to do. No coach here carries a ITTF coaching guide... they'ed get laughed outta the building.
This is why you can't understand that the average person plays the game just to play the game. Not to be multiballed or to follow your lil ITTF manual of how they should be. You don't understand the individuality of people and that EVERYONE is unique... EVERYONE is different. The fact that you disregard that and push your ITTF book and your training on them even if they don't wish that style of training is just insulting.
If someone comes to you and pays you... YOU work for THEM. If you don't like it? You can GTFO. If they say NO to something... you DO NOT FORCE IT UPON THEM. You find another way to do it. Or does your ITTF manual... or your years of experience not teach you that? ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 8:38pm
What makes you think you'll be drilling bad techniques if the coach is watching you and correcting you?
As for picking up balls... won't you have to pick up balls in a real match? Is that not a realistic way to train? And why would you have to pick up balls? You could have a tub of balls on the side and still play practice points instead of multiball drills without stopping much. Thats how alot of clubs do it. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 9:03pm
Thats basically skipping a step in learning, for some people this can work. But not everyone's ability is the same. Many would benefit from taking it slow with multiball and working it up into a rally.
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Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 9:08pm
How is that skipping a step? You can't FH FH drill with 1 ball? You can't BH BH drill with one ball? I believe thats how the majority of people learn when they first start. Ball flies out? They pick up the ball and keep going. Like I said... you don't see everyone coming into a club with a tub of balls. You see people with 1 ball... and they drill and play.
But sure... I 100% agree with you that it may work for some and not work for others. And thats the entire point Yogi does not see. He automatically sees... "its not what China or the ITTF book says so its automatically wrong" which is ignorant and 1 dimensional. Are we suppose to ignore something that may work fantastic for someone because a book says for you to do it another way that may not work as well for that specific person?
When I use to watch Cheng Yi Du (Ex Chinese Provincial player and current high level player out here in California) and his partner train (FH FH then BH BH then practice points) at our club a year or so ago... how many balls do you think he brought to drill with? 1... 3 star ball. That's it. You don't believe me? Ask Ohhgourami, or CAGarageSales or ComegLan... they watched them too. And at the club we had carts and carts of balls free for everyone to use... yet they still used one 1 ball. It fell off the table? They picked it up... kept going. If Yogi was there and ran up to them and demanded they multiball... they woulda just looked at him and ignored him for trying to force something on them.
Point is Kenneyy... be realistic and think of typical everyday players you see. Do you really see normal everyday players hauling in a tub of balls to the club and start multiball drilling with friends? Is Yogi's vision of everyone multiballing China/Euro style realistic? Or do you see people bring 1 ball... and do what they gotta do until it breaks?
Like I said... him and his ITTF handbook are not in touch with reality... just what they perceive people need. It's a guide but its like the bible to him... no table tennis player can not follow it or they aren't "correct." The reality of real average people however... paints a different story. Yet they choose to ignore it. If they are stubborn enough to only walk down one road without even exploring others... then nothing I, or other people tell them will make them open their minds. They will continue to force everyone down their one road because they feel anything other than their road... is the wrong road. Much like a Dictatorship.
We live in a free world where we can choose what road is best for us. It's OUR choice... we don't have to be forced down one road just because Yogi and his lil book says you do.
You never let someone, no matter who it is, force something upon you that you don't want to do or something you feel won't help you. Unfortunately, Yogi doesn't care that the student doesn't want to do it... he'll force it on you anyways which is why his coaching philosophy is horrible. It's his way or the highway. It doesn't take 30 years of experience... or a ITTF coaching manual to tell you that forcing someone is morally the wrong thing to do. The fact that he believes forcing people to his agenda equals good coaching is just laughable to me... like he and his book are the "God of Table Tennis" and everyone who doesn't follow his book is wrong. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 10:39pm
It is learning running before you can walk properly. People in the U.S don't have the luxury of multiball, so they often have flawed technique or will take a long time to learn the strokes. Even getting coaching in the U.S is very expensive. This thread is about multiball training. And it is beneficial even though many cannot use it. And it is especially good for beginners. And your example, Cheng Yi Du is no beginner. In fact many players do not like to do multiball because it is too tiring. So you have two cons of multiball- hard to implement and can be tiring and demotivating for players. |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/12/2011 at 11:12pm
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But you can multiball if you wanted to quite easily. All you need is to buy a buncha balls, put them in a tub, and have people hit them to you. It might not be as fast or as accurate as from a high level coach... but you can always pay for coaching if you want that. And I've already said that its beneficial... my point is that its not more beneficial than match play and if you overmultiball with not enough matchplay, your game can suffer as a result which is a major con about the misbalance of too much multiballing that alot of coaches do. Like multiple people have said... we've observed people who multiballed too much and did not focus on enough matchplay. They look fantastic in the multiball, but horrible in a match since it's nothing like the multiball.Anyways... Paraffin oil just came so going to go mix up a new batch of tuner instead of repeating the same thing here over and over and over again in this thread. If people don't understand... just find one of those students who look fantastic in multiball but awful in games and ask them if more gameplay experience would have helped them vs more multiball. You can't beat straight up feedback from an actual student. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: bonggoy
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 12:28am
YES! |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 1:15am
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Really Bonggoy? You see a majority of normal club players bringing in tubs of balls everyday? By majority I mean you walk in the club and theres more people who brought in their own tubs of balls doing multiball with their tub of balls vs people who brought 1 ball playing games against people.
If you're that confident... you want to make a little wager and visit a few random clubs to see if your theory is correct? I'm that confident that you won't see the majority of normal club players bringing a tub of balls for the purpose of multiball. You might see 1 or 2 and they're usually not doing multiball with the tub... its just they dont want to pick up balls between points.
You might see coaches bring in balls to multiball their students... but I'm confident you will not see more normal club players doing self multiball with their tubs vs normal people with 1 ball playing games.
Lets test it out on 3-5 random clubs in the US shall we? You're welcomed to PM me and we'll set up the terms and the wager.
If I'm wrong... I have no problem admitting it... but I'm confident you're wrong and you're confident I'm wrong so I'll wait for your PM. Let me know! Anyways back to mixing up the tuner... ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 1:50am
| I'm training kids with multibal all the time now, the gains with athletic kids are from 1000 US to 1500 US in about 2 months, training no more than twice a week, but hitting a couple thousand balls on the training days. The easy gains are done now and I expect it will take many months to go from 1500 us to 1800 at least. Training with a single ball last year took me 6 months to get a kid from 1400 to 1800 us, training once per week. From what I can see so far the gains with multi ball are faster but more importantly give much better stroke form since you can give advice on adjustments while feeding balls, while the strokes are grooving in. We still practice "single" ball style too but have pockets full of balls to keep the tempo up |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 2:21am
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Were the athletic kids trained from scratch or did they have prior experience? How much did you have to "deprogram"? ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:08am
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No not from scratch, I don't have the time for that, I don't have time to help people that have ten years of bad form ground in from using a worn out premade blade either. The kids I can easily help will play one season of basic matches (from scratch) then I'll help the kids that are keen have some ambition and want to go further in the game. You can deprogram young kids fairly fast with multiball. You just have to feed them balls that can't be returned with bad form, heavier backspin when teaching brush looping or faster balls on counter looping. Or just gentle counter hitting to learn the right stroke to keep your balance and not miss anything. I don't care so much if their strokes are not Chinese team perfect because the goal for these kids is not national level or anything like that, I only aim to help them get a good foundation to be able to play a decent club game of just over 2000 US. I can take them to 1800 fairly fast with a good foundation and a solid mechanical knowledge of all the big strokes you need to play at high level even if they wont use them yet at 1800 level in matches. After that they should be able to eventually make it over 2000 with enough years and matches and some mental maturity.
The goal for me isn't to produce any single great player but slowly build a stronger club, the average level of the club is 1500 us which I guess is normal for a small club but I'd like to improve that to at least 1700 in the near future. To do that I have to "seed" these more gifted players so they can then learn how to teach other young players and grow everyone in the club into a stronger player. But I certainly see multiball training as probably the only way to do that when time is limited and human time is always limited in one way or another |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 8:26am
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@rack: the only reason why people (in my opinion) never did the "multiball bucket" in the beginning is because they never know about it. it's the same with tennis. kids to want to learn and play start with 1 ball...that's just how it is. but beginners by themselves have no knowledge of a coaching regiment. hence why they don't bring in a bucket with them when they play.
now people who get really serious and start doing some research, they're bound to stumble upon multiball and bam, they're going to try it.
there's a high likelihood that they're not going to stick to it though. for two big reasons too.....1) have to find someone who's willing to feed 2) have to find someone who KNOWS how to feed in order to avoid frustration.
again this is dangerous because you'll get some bad habits in but that's another different topic. ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: bonggoy
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 9:53am
That's not what you ask earlier. You can't change the parameter of your argument midway. Read your previous post that I quoted. |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 11:12am
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Haha how many times do I have to tell you... I never said it wasn't good for beginners. I said only multiball training ALONE is not good for beginners. I said Match Play takes a higher priority than multiball. Get it through your thick skull instead of just being so 1 dimensional with your little coaching book. There are MULTIPLE ways to do things.... not just YOUR way. * ahmm you have been ditching multiballs as not good for teaching beginners since the first page of the topic now you are changing your stance about it? what you said in your ealier posts is that multiball is not good for beginners and should not be taught until higher levels! that is different from what you are saying now! i never said also that multiball is the only thing for beginners. what i said over and over again is that multiball is good for beginners coupled with table drills and match plays! you are the one with the thick skull and narrowmindedness! there are many ways to skin a cat but there are proven principles that are good for players who want to develop their won game if they can afford to have it! can you not get it through your thick skull? Stop trying to push your China training agenda... not everyone trains like they do in China. Not everyone goes to table tennis school or has the time to multiball everyday. Is it that hard to understand... people just play just to play instead of being multiballed to hell? You're using China as the example... are the players in the USA the same as Chinese Players? Do they share the same lifestyle? Is table tennis in the USA anywhere NEAR important as it is in China? Do you REALLLLY think the average club player comes to the club to multiball? *is it also hard for you to understand also that what im pointing at is that if multiball is used in china then its supposed to be the best way! you on the other hand kep repeating that multiball is not good for beginners! the situation of players in the us is not the point of not doing multiballs, thew point of this arguement from the beginning is that multiball is good even with beginners. you are poor with arguing because you keep changing the topics and include topics which are out of the points! Thats utterly ridiculous to expect EVERYONE to train to same way. If people trained in the USA like they trained in China... there would be no reason many top players in the US travel to China to train if the training was EXACTLY the same. It's a COMPLETELY different culture. *again poor and flawed arguement skills. the topic here is if multiball is good for beginners. if its done by the best table tennis country then it must be essential and good for beginners. the issue here is if you have access to it as a beginner why not go with it! Is the Chinese training realistic for average club player in the US who maybe buys 1-2 lessons? How many BAD HABITS they've been doing for years do you think you can fix in 1-2 hours time? You think multiballing them for 2 hours will fix BAD HABITS they've had for years? You're using a situation that is completely different from REALITY! OPEN YOUR MIND and ADAPT instead of pushing your little agenda. Understand that what you want... is not what everyone wants. * again let me reiterate this to your thick skull, accessibility of multiballs to the players is not the issue of this arguement. its the effectiveness of the multiballs as a training tool for beginners! duh! the wants of the players are not the topic since we are arguing about multiballs and its effectiveness to players who are beginners! You say multiball is SOOOOO important and utterly required. Why can players hit 1500 with ZERO multiball? Are you saying the majority of the worlds table tennis players have all done multiball since its sooo important? If you are you're totally not in touch with reality and the average club player. And you say... "the issue of its availability is not the point here but its importance, if you are not able to find a coach who can give you a multiball drill it does not affect that FACT that multiball is important to beginners" How can availability not be important???? ANYONE can multiball. ANYONE can buy a tub of balls and feed to another person. They might feed at a slower pace than a advanced player... they might not be as accurate in their simulation... but ANYONE can feed. It's not rocket science to hit a ball to someone to hit. Yet no average club players do it without coaching.... you haven't answered why yet... OR does your little ITTF book not tell you why? Maybe its because NOT EVERYONE MULTIBALLS because they feel its NOT NECESSARY for what they want to achieve. * availability does not affect the fact that multiballs in training beginners is the best method plus table drills and matches! You say in the other response... you train for what they need.... What if you can't fix it? Not everyone can have PERFECT form and PERFECT strokes like highly trained players. Especially people who started training late who have had bad habits for YEARS. Believe it or not... the majority of the world DOES NOT go through any training at all. You think everyone goes through stroke training? So if they tell you they want to loop with their imperfect form... you'll refuse to teach them? Thats why your 1 dimensional coaching makes no sense. Instead of seeing the students circumstances and whats realistic... you only have a singular goal to China train them. * you are the one who is one dimensional here coz you are the one who cant even recognize the importance of multiball training for beginners. so high level coaches around the world are 1 dimensional because they start training beginners with multiballs?? wow! and do you know how many people get bad habits and strokes because tehy do not have the right basics from the start? Who are you to decide what different people CAN and CAN NOT do? Believe it or not... most people play the game... TO HAVE FUN. NOT to be told you MUST multiball... especially if they can readily achieve their goals without it. *why has the topic shifted to what can and cannot be done? the topic here is you know what :D "using your logic again about the book saying the world is flat i will also believe its flat then" Thats exactly why you're such a horrible coach regardless of how much experience you have. All you believe is what you read in a book instead of REALITY and REALISTIC situations of students. Such a narrowminded way to see things. The fact that you need a ITTF Coaching Guide is already laughable. If you're soo high and mighty with years of experience... you wouldn't need a guide to tell you what to do. No coach here carries a ITTF coaching guide... they'ed get laughed outta the building. *ahmm you are the one who is not realistic here. if you are a developing coach you need constant research about what is new and applicable. reading books and articles are some ways to improve. because of your narrow mindedness you cannot see the importance of people who are authorities in table tennis and i am not saying it is me but the ones i have mentioned. you always place your experience as your best source but the experiences of other people who are wayyyyy wayyyyyy ahead of you in terms of coaching you reject because they dont support your unfounded and biased opinion. just because you have experienced that in some people it doesnt mean that it is true all over. accept it or not there are things taht have been perfected and proven effective. if multiball is effective for beginners then prove something that it is not! until now all you mention is what you see which is so superficial and pathetic yo dont know what is a godo training method even for beginners! This is why you can't understand that the average person plays the game just to play the game. Not to be multiballed or to follow your lil ITTF manual of how they should be. You don't understand the individuality of people and that EVERYONE is unique... EVERYONE is different. The fact that you disregard that and push your ITTF book and your training on them even if they don't wish that style of training is just insulting. * it is again because of your narrowmindedness and lack of knowledge that makes you a fool of what you are saying. what we are talking about here is the importance of multiball for beginners If someone comes to you and pays you... YOU work for THEM. If you don't like it? You can GTFO. If they say NO to something... you DO NOT FORCE IT UPON THEM. You find another way to do it. Or does your ITTF manual... or your years of experience not teach you that? * nice try again diverting the issue but i will answer you hypothetical situation. as what i have done for all my students in the past and present i always make them see the importance of developing their techniques.. if that is your attitude then you should never get a coach since you already have a mindset which maybe it is WRONG then the coach can correct you and let you see our errors! also for the past 4 pages you have been saying that multiball is not important for lower players now you say multiballing alone is not good. that is not what you are saying in your former posts! you keep diverting the topic and posting insignificant reasoning which does not affect the facts! i really enjoy this thread because the more a person speaks the more ignorance he appears due to his lack of knowledge on some things in TT ------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 3:24pm
Pretty sure average club players who go to dedicated TT clubs with coaching see the coaches multiballing students.
But as you said... theres a high likelihood they're not going to stick with it for those 2 reasons. Yet they can get along without it and still do fine. Therefore its not "required"... am I wrong here? If you take all the table tennis players in the world and put them in a big room... I'm pretty sure the majority of them have not multiballed. And also, I'm pretty sure those players didn't go down in flames like Yogi says they would because they didn't multiball. It's simply not required for the average club player. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 3:30pm
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@ Bonggoy...
I'm pretty sure you understood what I meant when I said you don't see tons of normal people bringing in tubs of balls everyday to multiball themselves. How many do you see usually who bring their own tubs.... maybe 1? maybe 2?
Simply put... it's not realistic to see that when you walk in a club. Most people are there to play games and challenge people or get formalized coaching.
Do you agree? Is that not what you see in clubs? ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: bonggoy
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:05pm
Nope, I can only read what is actually written and go on from there. I can only speak to the club I go to. In our club, you see coaching, MBT, serve practice, etc. All with their tub of balls. I myself use an empty shoe box. Define "normal" people? |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:08pm
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i say it's not required but highly preferred . it's like a fast forward button =D ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:19pm
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@Yogi... Calm down Mod...
Yeah and I still think Multiball is not the greatest or most important method for teaching beginners. I think matchplay experience takes a higher priority than multiball for beginners. Have I not said that from the beginning that I feel matchplay is more beneficial than multiball? How many times do I need to repeat it. I think I've reiterated that point maybe 10+ times already but you can't get it through head. How many times have I said something like...
"A player can hit 1500 with ZERO multiball experience and 100% matchplay experience... but a player will have a hard time hitting 1500 with 100% multiball experience and 0% match play experience."
or
"Your multiball can't simulate certain situations well no matter how good of a feeder you are"
You admitted it yourself that multiball is a simulation... but the majority you can simulate won't be 100% the same as what you see. It can be close... but still won't be 100%. Wouldn't real life training vs an opponent be more of a "Pro" vs a "Con"? Wouldn't you want to do more real life training vs more multiballing?
Now answer this question for me...
If you had to pick ONLY 1 method of training between multiballing and real life training vs real opponents for a student who was going to play in tournies... which would you choose between the 2?
Real life training can accomplish the goals you have in multiball also. It might be slower or faster in in some cases depending on the student... but you can train the exact same things.
Now heres my point...
Wouldn't real life training be a suitable ALTERNATIVE method to multiballing? Especially when certain people don't gain as much from multiball versus actually playing against people?
Or do you really think "multiballing" is the only way ?
As for your China training agenda... why can't you recognize that not everyone learns in the same way? Is that not basic difference between all human beings? Just because China utilizes multiball, means that everyone has to follow that training method? You're so narrow minded that you can't allow other training methods when multiball doesn't work for a particular individual? You're saying that multiball works the best for every single person on Earth? Well guess what... you're already wrong... because like I said... I know people who have multiballed trained for years along with other organized training and they are still low level.
If that happens... wouldn't it be LOGICAL to train them another way because obviously your godly training method of multiball didn't work for them?
Now onto what you said about people not having basics from the start...
The reason why people don't have correct basics from the start is NOT EVERYONE gets coaching! The majority of players out there just play to play so of course they aren't going to have correct strokes. Tell me this Yogi,
Is it a requirement for you as a coach to have 100% correct strokes for your students? And... is that realistic for the majority of the table tennis players out there who obivously don't have coaching and can still play with bad strokes? Are you going to go around fixing the strokes of every single person out there who just want to enjoy the game?
Again, if multiballing was THE hands down best way... I'm pretty sure everyone would be doing it with friends. You can learn how to multiball for dirt cheap... just buy balls then learn how to feed slowly. Now heres my point here...
Multiballing is just 1 METHOD... 1 ROAD... but there are OTHER ROADS other people can take that are just as beneficial.
Tell me this Yogi... you as a coach drawing from your experience....
If you had a student... and someone told you that you could not multiball train him... does that mean that the student can not be a good player just because they didn't multiball?
Or would you have been a good coach and found other methods, other ideas to make the player just as good?
You say I am wrong in your later paragraphs... is it wrong for a student of the game to realize there isn't just one method (in this case multiballing) and that there are other methods they can concentrate on that may be more beneficial towards their game?
Is it wrong for people to question things because it might not work as well for them as it does others?
Is it wrong for people to expand their minds and realize you can get to the same destination with a completely different route as opposed to someone else?
From your words in the last few paragraphs... you obviously wouldn't let your students question you which is sad. You won't even consider their ideas just because they clash against yours.
And the worst part is... even if they say no... you'ed force it upon them.
------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:23pm
Normal people as in the majority of the world who play table tennis. As I said... if you put everyone in the world who played table tennis in a room and you partitioned them out...
The Normal Majority or the big chunk of people would be the people who just "play for fun"... no coaching... no lessons... they just play cause they like the game. They go to clubs to play different people and generally have fun.
Then you would have the little chunk of people who are really into the game... much like people on this forum. We like it to the point where we go to a table tennis forum to read up on it. We ask for tips, watch videos, get lessons, etc etc.
Then you have the tiny tiny chunk of people who are the pros.
------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:26pm
Obviously if it was a fast forward button, everyone who multiballed would be "fast forwarded" correct? How about the people who multiballed and didn't really improve which you do see.
Looks like they weren't fast forwarded at all!
It can be a fast forward for some people. It can also be a slow motion for other people.
It really really depends on the person which is what I've been trying to explain to Yogi. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:30pm
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Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:37pm
BINGO! FINALLY!
And the people who play for less than 4 hours a week, if you're lucky buy 1 lesson a week, are the majority! These are the "Most beginners" I've been referring to..... not the insano China trained juniors Yogi thinks of!
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
Now I can sleep in peace... ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:44pm
On the whole, I agree with you, it has its uses, but for the majority, training like the Chinese national team will actually hinder their progress. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:46pm
Exactly! This is why your coaching makes sense and is... more importantly... REALISTIC for the AVERAGE PLAYER!
I understand the Chinese do have the top players right now... as did Europe at one time... and that people want to train like them... and be like them.... and use their equipment because we all in AWE of their skills... however...
One must be realistic of where we're going to end up. Most people will stay between 1000-2000. The lucky talented few might venture above 2000.
You can use their training methods all you want... but you have to realize... they've been doing it since they're kids AND they do it for like 8 hours a day... AND they got top flight coaching. That's not a normal scenario for people! ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd) FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 09/13/2011 at 4:49pm
Gameplay will only make use of their existing strokes and will barely improve their game. Practicing is better to improve their strokes to achieve a higher level of play. Your method will only make beginners remain beginners.
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