Do NOT buy Mark V. That is a speed-glue era rubber, that for some reason still costs over 30 USD$. If you don't glue it is a dull rubber all around. I mean it really has nothing, no speed, no spin. It has control, yeah, but without any teeth it is useless. 

ALmost any new rubber in that price range is superior to Mark V in everything, everything, and I don't understand why people here are in such denial about it.

Go here: www.ttnpp.com

Just close your eyes and buy randomly any rubber from Donic, Andro or Xiom, that is on that website, and you will do much better than Mark V. And if anyone tells you that you are not good enough to play with a nice rubber tell them to go #$#% off. Adjusting your strokes to that dead Mark V will serve you bad in the future, for you will have to relearn your strokes when you eventually but new generation rubber.

 

 Thank you for your opinion...but you are very wrong it's rather humorus.

 

this time i do not agree assiduous. imo what it is overrated is all those new rubbers and new blades.

i know a lot of players still playing with sriver (without glue) that can crush most of people playing with new stuff. one of them plays with sriver fx and he loops with a hell of spin.

 

the same with blades. most people would play lot better with an all wood blade in the off- range.

 

lot of people always plays with the same partners. once one knows your partners game one can play with any rubber or blade. but go to play with different players and maybe you see that the modern blade or rubber is not so good. and then the sriver was more safe and the off- all wood scored better.

 

there is no need sometimes about so much speed or spin. there is always need about control.

 

                      "Dead", "Under Par"...Hmmm. Like I said before it's what's best that works for each player, there is no set rule for equipment. Primorac pairs with pretty much everything and it doesn't matter at all using any brand or type.

That's why all more experienced players go out of our way to suggest you learn good fundamentals on classic rubbers. It's not some mad crazy conspiracy against modern rubber, it's trying (sometimes in vain) to guide new players on the best path to go about becoming the best player they can be as quickly as possible. You can loop any chopped ball with Sriver fx as easy as you want from both sides IF you've learnt how to loop properly in the first place on classic rubber. I'll assure you Ma Long can hit a backhand within 10% of the speed he can with his tuned T64 with untuned Sriver fx. That's all hand speed, very little to do with maximum speed comes from the rubber or blade when you are hitting the balls correctly, what comes from the extra bounce of fast blades and rubbers is a faster passive game and 20 fold less control, still it's an important part of high level play and the pros are good enough to afford the lesser control for a faster passive return of the ball, the 95% of players can't  and for the vaaaaaaast majority the extra control far outweighs any speed advantage in passive play 

 

I'm an advocate for rubbers that are cheaper than sriver/mark V if you can get similar benefit out of them. They are overpriced tremendously. Especially Sriver. I think the safest bet is Mendo instead of sriver because it's very similar but much cheaper.

I'm not underestimating it at all, I'm just saying that it's a sub $10 rubber being sold for more than twice the price.  I mean, you can get a pre-made DHS paddle with two PF4's for like 15 bucks, I'd recommend that for anyone who's ready to move on from "ping pong" to table tennis. Similarly, in the post glue ban era, I find it ridiculous that the Sriver is being recommended by anyone to anyone.

Amen!

I mean, if Sriver had gone down to 15 bucks today, fine, go sweat yourself with it. It's like jogging with dumbels - some people enjoy it.

But when you have all these nice rubbers in the same price range and turn them all down for a Sriver? 

Also, my BH loop is perfect, thank you very much. Perhaps exactly due to the fact that I never played a rubber that will hold me back.

 Now there is a statement, just when I thought things were getting boring.

Unlike you, I wouldn't recommend a tensor to a beginner though.  Fundamentals are much more important when you're starting out.  I wish I spent more time on them when I started.  Instead I've spent a lot of time trying to fix my bad habits.

When you advocate Sriver to newbies, you should tell them that it is better for them to use old generation rubbers because it is better for their development to use rubber with dead sponge. This is the language you should use, if you want to be closer to reality.

As for your second argument, that this leads to not being lazy and developing the right stroke, - I see no logic behind that, and less yet evidence. Different sponge requires different stroke. Why you think that you need to learn the old stroke before you learn the right one is beyond me. My coach loves telling people how long it took him to move from Sriver to T05, because his loop just wasnt working with the higher throw. I don't think a single self respecting coach will tell their student to start with Sriver first, but you will say again that since I don't have a coach, I have to take the long road. 

Do I need to learn to play the 38 mm ball first, before I start playin with the 40mm ball as well, or can I skip that? I mean the 38 mm is faster, and if I learn to play with that, the 40 mm will be easy. The 40mm ball allows you to make shots with, what was your language, absolutely horrible technique.

The whole notion that one needs to start studying a sport using the previous generation equipment and will benefit from adjusting his technique to equipment he will not use competitively is just absurd to me.

 

I'm not quite sure where it is that you get the idea that the newer rubbers require a different stroke than the old ones.  As someone who just switched from sriver (unglued) to a new gen rubber I can tell you that the stroke is the same.  True, some rubbers have higher and lower throw than others but it only requires slight adjustments and the stroke is the same.

Another nearby club have the top 2 using Tenergy (both at ~US 2300-2400) and there's only four sheets of tensors in the next 50 players along with another 2 tenergy lower down the order with a player at about 1700 us who has never improved not surprisingly. Those high level players started with Sriver and after years and years of coaching switched to tenergy.

At a slightly larger club of 100 players they have the number 2 and 3 players at ~2400 using tensors then number one at us 2500+ uses late generation classics although non tensor/tenergy. Almost everyone else there from us2100 and under uses classics. That's a pretty normal spread of rubber vs skill where people are actively competing and using rubber that lets them play the best they can

 

 +2

I personally wouldn't use Sriver if it were free. I have to change rubber twice a year, and wouldn't use the damn Sriver all year just to save a hundred dollars. I don't want to play a handicapped match. The people that say it is spiny - when is the last time you bought new rubber? The ninetees? Yes, it can make the ball rotate in the air while going forward, but is that enough to call it spiny? If Sriver is spiny, what is Tenergy?

All these mythical 2400 player that come out of nowhere with their 'crusty' Srivers and beat everybody in the club , you guys just crack me up. Sounds like a camping scary story. The whole thing is getting out of proportion. I understand a little bit of bias and stretching the facts but you guys just go overboard. 

IF YOU TELL ANYONE THAT FOR WHATEVER PURPOSE BUYING A SRIVER FOR $33 IS A GOOD IDEA YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!

So, you play with Srivers both side? Good for you...

                  When a 2300 rated player tells me my loops are very spinny using Sriver then I guess it's spinny.

Classic rubber were meant to be used with speed glue - and a comparison between classics without glue and modern rubbers is like saying that a fish is slower than a man because it cannot run 100m fast enough.

Put the fish in water and it will swim faster than Usain Bolt runs 100m! 

Another thing for those who do not know - is that speed glue does not only give speed to the old gen. rubbers. It also adds a lot of spin to them and most importantly it gives them gears. They retain 80-90% of their control and they are generally not bouncy, despite being as fast and explosive as tensors when glued up. They no longer feel "dead" they have a very lively feel.

Now that I made this point - to the discussion about if one should buy a classic rubber or a modern one.

Well, sadly, even though I am a big fan of classic rubbers, and like them a lot more than modern ones. The truth is that Assidious has a point - he mentions the words "dead sponge" a lot. He is right because without glue the rubbers lack the gears - their character does not even come out - they are dormant not dead - dormant powerful volcanoes, but still dormant. 

I can attest to this because after a long absence from the game, I came back with my Donic Vario rubbers, and immediately played in competitions. I had to put in a lot more effort, swing a lot more, could recover much slower, and really could get myself injured. I had to switch to my current setup to be competitive. Of course it was not the rubbers which were worse than modern ones...it was that I was using the rubbers in a way that was not intended (no speed glue). 

As for controlled training - yes classics are good to develop the strokes and technique - surely better than tensors for drilling. But do keep in mind that unglued they lack gears - and therefore are suitable for simple technique forming drills, not for more complex training involving changes in pace and gears. ie: good for FH loop drills. NOT good for BH Loop, FH loop vs heavy chop, then FH loop vs fast ball... there the rubbers already stop performing as well as they should. Unglued they are still great for consistency and control training... so they have a role because these are 2 key aspects of the game.

Now I can already foresee some players disagreeing - but the truth is... with classics, at least if you have speed glued them 3-5 times, and then you do not speed glue them again - they become a lot more lively. Using them as out of the package without ever gluing they are dormant and stuck on their lower, less spinny gears. If you glue up several times, even not playing with them - then glue it with water based glue to play - it would already have the medium gears at least... to have the high gears - for max spin and speed, and even control on fast shots.... they have to be freshly glued... even booster won't do it.

Classics when used as intended are in my opinion better than tensors which are too bouncy, lack low gear, are less linear (you get too much power on low power shots, and not as much power as Bryce glued on your hardest shots) - I think this is a technical observation not a preference, as we would all like to have a rubber which can be also good in short game and give a wider spectrum of shots - people who only ever played with tensors are unaware of the effectiveness of certain shots which work less well with tensors. Tensors are still developing, but I have not heard of tensors which are as good as Chinese rubbers (say H3) for the short game, and yet were excellent in what they do. With Classic rubbers, there were! 

Classical rubbers without speed glue - are not true to their characteristics - and therefore, I would only recommend them as first rubbers - to keep for the first 6 months - 1 year of training and competing. They ARE very good for that - better than new generation rubbers / tensors.

Intermediate players should use tensors not classics but in say 1.8mm and chose ones which are control oriented, EVEN if they are all out attackers. Their best "attack" still does not tap into 100% of the control oriented tensors abilities!! 

As a player plays and trains at a higher level unglued classics will limit him as assidious said - but again this is not because the rubbers are of less quality or only good for beginners - it is because they are incomplete without speed glue - fish out of water. 

Those rubbers are OLD generation or just OLD. They are not classic, and they are not competitive without speed glue. OLD. Say it to yourself: OLD.

The same way *tuning* is not really tuning, but just a form of deformation that expands the sponge, reducing density in the process, creating a thicker but softer, and less controllable rubber. Deforming your rubber with lamp oil is really not the same as speed glue.

Lets not put lipstick on a pig. 

joola upp

joola novic

tsp grandy

adidas sonic

Xiom Musa, Andro Shifter????

VictorK wrote: I played for many years with Mark V, Sriver, Mendo MP, which can probably be classified as classic rubbers.   Although I haven't tried too many "modern" rubbers, I found that some of the ones I played with to be very similar while other less similar to classic rubbers in the way they play, and hence required more adjustments on my part. For example, Tenergy series (especially 05) required much more adjustments than Tibhar Aurus, which I've been using for over 2 years, and the adjustment was almost seamless for me.  BTW, both are excellent offensive rubbers that can be liked by players with a variety of different styles, but if someone has strong preference for the feel of a "classic", all-round offensive rubbers like Mark V or Sriver, I'd recommend Aurus over Tenergy.

Interesting observation! You are spot on with this actually! Out of Modern rubbers - the Aurus seems most similar to the Classics - each classic had it's own distinct feel - but the Aurus (or even Aurus Sound) seems to nestle in among them. 

It certainly has the linearity aspect - it is not too powerful on softer shots, but increases in power as your shot gets stronger. It is not as bouncy as other tensors, and allows accurate placement in tight angles. I has a bit of character - if you've often played with Aurus - you can distinguish it from another tensor (this is not the same for all tensors - most of which feel pretty similar (of course NOT ALL FEEL SIMILAR)). It still has the tensor muted feel, and is less crisp than most older rubbers... but there were some dull feel older rubbers out there too.

Note that I do not refer to all older rubbers as Classic rubbers... 

For me classic are:

Mark V, Sriver (and variants), Bryce, Bryce FX, Mendo (and variants), 729 FX, Donic Coppa, Donic JO Waldner.

They are classic either because:

1) they were good at everything! maybe not excellent at anything, but close to excellent at most things... and "only" good at others! (Sriver, Mark V, Donic JO Waldner)

2) they were not good at everything - but Excellent, truly excellent at certain things...unsurpassable - Bryce and Mendo MP belong here. Tenergy 05 is in a way a classic that belongs here - although it is modern. Stiga Magna might (and is by some) be classified here.

These rubbers are only a small selection (the best) of what was available back then. Maybe not as many rubbers as today - but still so many I have not even heard of all of them.

Donic Vario for example is an old rubber that is not a classic - it does not match the performance of the classic rubbers. I would also place Joola Samba, and Yasaka Pryde here, and personally probably also Stiga Magna since there were as many people who hated this rubber as those who loved it. 

To call them just old is to call someone like Waldner, Persson or Ma lin just old and state that they have no relevance today. 

 

@Clarence247 - What you described above is exactly why I decided to use Aurus and stuck with it for the past 2.5 years.   Interestingly, it was one of the forum members (also a good friend of mine) who likes to experiment with different rubbers, who recommended Aurus to me, as he knows my style of play and knew I was longing for a linear, "do-it-all-well", all-round offensive rubber with medium-firm sponge.   Other things that make Aurus a great choice, IMO, are: relatively low price, excellent durability, and suitability for players of most levels (from beginners to pros).

It is even very flexible in that it pairs up with almost any blade extremely well!

I wholeheartedly agree.

Transitioning from something like Sriver makes less and less sense as new rubbers come out. I do not even know what to recommend anymore for new players.

So many people claim using faster and spinnier rubbers cripples you, making it too easy to get spin and speed, with no control. You only lose control if you let yourself.

Perhaps these people are copping out on control. Like they buy a super controlled rubber to prevent having to learn proper technique for controlling faster equipment.

That being said, I don't think someone starting off should go tenergy. We really do need a new starter equipment thread.

@BH-Man - VicK was quoting me by the way :)