OX or not OX, what is the different
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Topic: OX or not OX, what is the different
Posted By: Egghead
Subject: OX or not OX, what is the different
Date Posted: 04/18/2012 at 3:14pm
Hi, I am planning to change my BH to 563 medium pips. Then, I find out that there are ox and 1.5mm sponge version. I ask my fds. They told me that ox version can only chop and is slower than the sponge version. Sponge version can hit/block as well, However, I see some people actually use ox long pips-out rubber to loop at training session. So, what is the real different between using ox pips-out and pip-out rubber with sponge ------------- Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX |
Replies:
Posted By: chopchopslam
Date Posted: 04/18/2012 at 3:40pm
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I think pips are easier to learn without sponge and then add sponge later to give you more options. Depends on how you are trying to use them, though. Sponge is actually better for chopping while 0X is better for blocking and deception. For aggressive hitting, I prefer no sponge as it is more predictable, but experienced LP users may prefer sponge for hitting since they can control spin more. ------------- Butterfly Grubba Pro Tenergy 80 National Team Pogo LP .6mm |
Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 04/18/2012 at 4:29pm
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LPs with sponge requires more experience and brings more spin variation. It depends on the player skills. I prefer LPs ox against off players with knowledge about LPs. Probably because i enjoy playing with LPs from time to time. However I think that to a full time allround LPs player to use LPs with sponge may bring more possibilities. -------------  EJ Club. MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh);  InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 04/18/2012 at 4:40pm
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If changing to 563 then I recommend 1.5mm over 0X but zeropong also sells a 2mm version. I doubt one can really loop with 563 0X. It would be hard with 1.5mm sponge. I do believe you can generate some top spin though. I have only played with 563 1.5mm and Peacekeeper 0X, some consider this a MP but it is really a SP, on and Samsonov Alpha. It won't be easy to generate your own spin with 0X. I would get the 1.5mm sponge. Peacekeeper also comes in 1.0, 1.5 and 2mm sponge. The sponge ABSORBS energy and doesn't make the paddle faster. Blocking fast balls with 0X is hard as there is nothing to absorb the energy. However, if you get the angle right the balls will go over the net fast and low. It isn't so bad with 755 like ChopChop uses because the LPs do absorb some energy. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 04/18/2012 at 5:19pm
It depends on what kind of sponge, doesn't it? Most modern sponges act like a spring, so they grab the ball (and its energy) and throw it back out. With more sponge like those, you get more speed. |
pnachtwey wrote:Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 04/18/2012 at 7:18pm
No!
Yes
Yes, but not as much as they absorbed.
No, what sponge has a higher speed after impact than before? That would mean the sponge magically can generate energy and the coefficient of restitution is greater than 1. If what you say is true then TT would be the answer to the world's energy needs. Why not simply keep adding more and more sponge for more and more speed? Put a 0X rubber on a fast blade and see how easy it is to control. Hard bats usually use relatively slow blades because there is no sponge to absorb a fast shot so the wood must do it. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 04/18/2012 at 7:35pm
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To ox or not to ox, that is the question (c) OX version is indeed considerable slower. Looping with it is not really looping, it's just a rather flat hit with a specific angle of attack. Although it can look like a loop... ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: nathanso
Date Posted: 04/18/2012 at 7:40pm
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There are several LPs on the market with dampening sponge that does indeed slow the ball and absorb energy. Giant Dragon Cropcircles is one such LP. Other LPs have fast bouncy sponges that speed up the LP topsheet over how it would be as OX, Xiom Guillotine S and RITC 755 Tack Speed being examples.
I'm able to lift a ball from below net height and 'loop' it over the net with most LPs though the degree of spin is only a fraction of what an inverted rubber would impart. ------------- BBC, SP, LP |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 04/18/2012 at 10:33pm
Perhaps if you are putting top spin on the ball but not in the normal direction. If the ball bounces back faster with sponge that means the sponge must be adding energy to the ball. This can't be or all our energy problems are solved. Where does the energy for the higher speed after impact come from?
I like the 'loop'. I bet gravity is playing the most significant parts of these 'loops'. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 04/18/2012 at 11:48pm
Well, I agree there's no more energy generated by the sponge, other than the energy on the ball and the swinging racket. If you hold a racket still and drop a ball on a racket, it won't bounce back higher than where it was dropped, regardless of what the racket covering is. But the thing is, most modern sponges absorbs significantly less energy than rubber top sheets, and the bare wood on the racket face. So adding sponge would make the racket covering more bouncy, and before the sponge bottoms out, lessen the dampening from the wood. That explains why more sponge = more speed, unless the sponge is really dead. If you try out the same rubber with 1.0mm and max sponge thicknesses, you'll see. |
Posted By: GoldenDragoon
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 12:13am
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I agree.... I have the same LP in OX and 0.6 and the sponge is faster. The sponge is also capable of countering spin where the OX is really bad in this area.
Of note it is possible to "loop" with LP. It differs from inverted as with inverted you generate the spin in your stroke where as with LP you use the spin of your opponent and even add a little more yourself. What this means is you can "loop" and ball with backspin, but not with topspin using a LP. When facing topspin you are more or less reduced to playing defensive shots which is why all good players attack pips with topsin and reduce their game to defense only. ------------- Blade: Nexy Spartacus FL 84g FH: Evolution FX-P Max Blk BH: Evolution EL-P 1.9 Red |
Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 1:38am
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thanks for all the suggestions; I use it mainly to cover my weak bh, not really use it as an offensive weapon :) I think I will get the 1.5 mm version and try try
------------- Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 2:28am
So adding more sponge, even though it absorbs some energy, some how results in more kinetic energy? Where does this extra energy come from then? I don't buy it. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: roar
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 2:48am
You should think about trying something like friendship 755 OX. It's very cheap (around $5) and easy to control. It's very very similar to the long pips Sun Jian Fei is using (Palio ck531a) and if you're interested in using it to cover a weak backhand instead of chopping, he's a good role model for you. He's a chopper, but he demonstrates using the long pips to set up attacks in just about every other way on the vids currently on youtube. Sun Jian Fei is the player wearing black and his long pips are the red side of his paddle. ------------- http://i.imgur.com/wqnxV.gif |
Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 2:57am
P, They're saying less energy is lost during impact against modern sponges than against a bare blade. The result is relatively more speed with a sponge than without. They're not saying the sponge is adding energy to the impact, but that more of the impact energy is translated into ball speed and less to heat and inelastic deformation.
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Posted By: chopchopslam
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 10:02am
Yes it is possible for some sponges to add speed. It's not a matter of adding energy, it happens because less energy is lost than in a bounce against a bare blade. In a blade bounce, you lose energy through vibration of the blade and the ball, and some is lost in extra deformation of the ball. A good springy sponge will lose a little energy as it dissipates laterally into the sponge, but most of the energy will be returned to the ball as it springs back. Edit: I didn't even notice that guy above me said almost the same thing, so yeah... what he said  ------------- Butterfly Grubba Pro Tenergy 80 National Team Pogo LP .6mm |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 1:15pm
Are you sure? How do you know? If you put a rubber on a steel plate and bounced a ball off it would have to rebound and 0.707 of its impact speed to return even half the energy. I use the example of the steel plate because it would absorb an insignificant amount of energy. I question the statement about modern rubbers being that efficient. BTW, and more on topic. I find 755 1mm very inconsistent. I think the sponge lets the pips bend this way or that depending on a lot of things that aren't apparent to the casual user. 755 0X seems to work just fine. Yes, 755 1mm will allow one to do a pretty good approximation of a loop but it doesn't have the kick after the bounce like T05 does. Yes, is it possible to really loop a ball with 0X pips IF you have some help from a chopper. The 0X rubber can't add that much spin itself but the pips can add top spin to the incoming back spin on the ball and the result is a real loop but it is an assisted loop. I see this happen when I am 'looping' back chopped balls with my hard bat. The first couple of my returns simply add to the spin until the 3rd or 4th seems to have a whole lot of back spin coming in and top spin going back. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 1:55pm
P,
I don't think anyone is vouching for the efficiency of modern rubbers. I think all of us have at some point bounced the ball on a bare blade and discovered that the ball did not bounce up as high as it otherwise would on a rubber (assuming the rubber is bouncy and not tacky of course). Based on this empirical experiment, we conclude that we can hit a faster ball with a rubber than without. Is there something wrong with this conclusion?
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Posted By: TAW
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 2:12pm
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Modern Defender Strokes Used:
The modern defender uses http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/backspin.htm - as an attacking weapon, to set up his attacks. The typical modern defender uses a http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/shakehandgrip.htm - , and http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/chop.htm - with heavy backspin on the http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/backhand.htm - side. On the http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/forehand.htm - side, this player will chop the ball when his opponent makes a strong attack, but will counterattack any weak http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/topspin.htm - or loose http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/push.htm - by his opponent. Distance from the Table: The distance from the http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/table.htm - for this playing style will vary. When on the defensive or counterattacking, the player will be anywhere from 8 feet or more behind the table. When attacking from his own http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/serve.htm - , the player will stay within 3-5 feet of the table unless forced away by a good counterattack from his opponent. Typical Equipment: The world class modern defender use http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/invertedrubber.htm - on the forehand side, in around a 1.9mm thickness http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/sponge.htm - , with http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/speedglue.htm - . On the backhand, http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/longpimples.htm - with thin sponge are typically used, although http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/shortpips.htm - and http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/antispin.htm - are seen occasionally. The http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/blade.htm - is an offensive blade, although not as fast as those used by the http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/looper.htm - or http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/hitter.htm - , since some extra control is needed when chopping. Lower level players use thinner sponge on the forehand (1.0 - 1.5mm) for better control. ------------- taw |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 2:13pm
Certainly the ball can be hit faster with with more sponge if more energy is put into it. If a little top spin is added then the ball can be hit even faster because now the ball will drop due to the top spin. ( So how much energy is rotational energy? Where does that come from? ) However, we were talking about using pips and speed. There is a difference in how you play with the rubber vs the property of the rubber itself. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: mercuur
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 2:29pm
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Hitting a ball for high speed with a bare blade can have a lot more impact for the ball then dropping it or softly bounce on a floor. Much more deformation going with it. I assume this drops the efficiency for the rebound from side of the ball as weaker (also from shape). Sponge decreases this deformation offcourse. Even if it looses some from the side of the racquet (and player) when it gains more from the balls side the result can still be a gain. Also for the player. Ox is not a totally bare blade offcourse (balls can even be cracked then) but still. This type of drop in speed won,t help for control as usual. It,s too much unexpected behavour for that difficult for controlling the ball. With ox on blades that tend to be more harsh on a ball (off+ carbon blades for instance) this will increase. Some sponge (if it,s not an offensive sponge) will therefor be easier when the blade is more an offensive blade. The speed doesn,t increase from a more defensive sponge. Typical for this (I think) is that on softer allround or defensive blades or also thick soft balsa blades thinner sponge can be faster then max or at least the difference is less then with some hard off+ blades. The loss from the additional sponge starts to prevail then over the gain because the blade allready has a softness from itself to keep the deformation of the ball lower. Other reason why a sponge can be easier on offensive blades is that it can help graze more spin from a topspin. That can avoid balls to float long sometimes from a combination of speed and backspin. But it,s probably better to learn with pips on easier blade and no -sponge. ------------- |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 04/19/2012 at 6:24pm
Uh, no, we're saying the ball can be hit faster with the exact same stroke, if you use a thicker sponge. It doesn't matter the top sheet is pips in or out. You can experiment it yourself by buying the same rubber with different sponge thickness, or you can just think about this: why would pretty much all pro's, except the defenders, use max sponge thickness? Some of them even try to sneak pass the 4mm overall thickness limit, just to absorb more energy and have a slower racket? |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 04/20/2012 at 2:15pm
Not in the normal direction or flat hitting like is done with MP. Someone that claims thicker sponges are faster should be able to come up with a proof that doesn't defy the laws of physics. No one has refuted my claims.
Agreed.
I am way ahead of you. I posted a link to this video a month ago. I have been too busy traveling and playing TT to do much testing. http://deltamotion.com/peter/TableTennis/I%20just%20got%20my%20HRS%20sponges.mp4 You can see in the preliminary test the thick sponge does not result in higher bounce. I need to drop the ball from higher elevations when I get serious. We have a balcony where I can drop the ball about 5m.
Because they want spin and are willing to give up a little speed to get it. Also, the claim that modern rubbers are relative fast compared to the blade is false. I will post a link to this one...more....time. http://www.ittf.com/ittf_science/SSCenter/docs/199408014%20-%20%20Tiefenbacher%20-%20Impact.pdf This link has been posted at least a half dozen times but no one seems to understand what they are reading. Notice the the Epar are normal coefficient of restitution is about 0.6. ( see page 11 ). That means the ball will bounce back at about 0.6 of the impact speed when hitting a stationary paddle. Since the kinetic energy is proportional to the velocity squared that means the ball has about 36% of the energy that it had before impact. The ball loses 64% of its energy. See figure 6 on page 7. It is clear that the marble covered with rubber is slower than bare marble. The same goes for the wood. Adding sponge makes the paddle slower. If you want to know how fast the ball will bounce back when the paddle is moving then look at the speed after impact area of this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution The Tiefenbacher pdf doesn't say how you use the Epar or coefficient of restitution in a calculation. One uses the speed after impact formulas. The point is that adding rubber does not make the paddle faster. The wood and rubber absorb a lot of energy. Adding more sponge will only absorb more energy. Now, it is up to you to refute this data and my arguments. What I find interesting is that the ball impacting on marble COR drops so much at higher speeds. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/22/2012 at 2:15am
thanks for all the suggestions; I have my first 15 mins training. It is the underspin service receive with my BH 563. My coach tells me that pimple w/ the sponge or OX for receiving serve is the same thing 
------------- Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX |
Posted By: Monarch
Date Posted: 04/03/2015 at 1:58pm
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Hello friends of TT. This series of posts catch my attention and hope not to be disrespectful to the players. My observation is with the sponge issue above. I agree most humbly with both sides but the sponge property cannot give speed. However most strokes, if not all strokes, have forward speed and direction, so the bigger mass must push the ball faster. So I must conclude that the spongy rubbers will move the ball faster because of the mass of the total. I also like the 563 mp for fun. thank you kindly.
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Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 04/03/2015 at 2:59pm
You need to look at the speed after impact formula half way down the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution In theory the extra mass will increase the speed after impact but it doesn't increase linearly with the additional mass nor is the mass of the sponge that great relative to the rest of the paddle. The sponge decreases the COR because it absorbs energy. This more than offsets the speed increase due to extra mass. I have played with both 563 0X and 563 1.5mm. I tried the 563 1.5mm on my Samsonov Alpha and the 563 0X on my Toni Hold White Spot because the THWS is a very slow blade and I needed something slow to absorb the energy of fast incoming balls. I can make the usual stroke through the ball type of strokes resulting in a little reversal or knuckle balls but I find it hard to do anything but flat hit with 563 on the offense. Better players seem to have no problems playing against the 563. With 802-40 1.8mm I can put pressure on the opponent by using top spin. With LP there is the fear, uncertainty and doubt factor do to spin reversal. 563 is interesting to play with for fun but it wouldn't be my first choice in a match. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: acid
Date Posted: 04/03/2015 at 3:54pm
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i played with a long pip player before and he told me that OX is easier to control but with sponge is like adding a spring to it. more spin, more impact/pushing/tension but hard to control. Usually they choose 0.6mm sponge. I don't see anybody play with more than > 1.0mm yet. And most of them play far away from the table. Long pips usually give people trouble. However, experienced players and players ranking more 2500 can kill your long pips return easily. ------------- if Life is short, play Ping Pong to make it longer :P |
Posted By: Tufeis
Date Posted: 04/04/2015 at 11:49am
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OX is better! OSP Immune OX Test Day S&T Hellfire OX Palio CJ8000 1,8mm |
Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 04/04/2015 at 1:14pm
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I tried both OX and 1.0 Yasaka Phantom in the backhand of my cpen bat. Found OX better only to receive serves. The sponged version is better in everything else, chopping, hitting and disturbing opponents. It also brought the perfect balance to my blade. With OX pips it was like I was using only one rubber.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/04/2015 at 1:19pm
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I prefer playing against OX to playing against sponge. With OX, the returns are very predictable - usually dead or reversal. With sponge, there is this element of need to know whether your opponent is adding to the spin, taking off the spin, passing through the spin or killing the spin so you have to watch the ball closely to tell how much spin is still left or whether your opponent really took anything off. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/04/2015 at 1:28pm
LP with >1.0 mm sponge, it will act like an inverted rubber. So pushing / chopping are not as good as thin sponge / ox LP; You are better attack with the lp with sponge. haha, old thread brings back memories, from 563 (1.8mm) -> lp ox -> trying lp (0.5mm) / sp (1.7mm) ------------- Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX |
Posted By: Tufeis
Date Posted: 05/25/2015 at 1:40pm
Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 05/25/2015 at 1:54pm
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..... ------------- Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 05/25/2015 at 3:10pm
Thanks for the video. The LP player is very good. |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 05/27/2015 at 3:09am
Who are these players? |
Posted By: Boss1703
Date Posted: 05/27/2015 at 10:58am
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i think one is dermaterialspezialist owner. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pierrefiassemapageping updated 20.11.10 http://bosscollection.skyrock.com http://tennisdetablecomtests.skyrock.com |
Posted By: CelestialBoy
Date Posted: 05/27/2015 at 3:17pm
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Now I'm using Spinlord Agenda OX for chopping distant from the table but I have experience with neptune 0.7 mm. The difference I noticed: Agenda OX -> easier to control, huge reversal, deception Neptune 0.7 mm -> amazing undercut spin when chopping, high reversal IMHO as traditional defense sponged lps are for skilled hands...
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Posted By: Peergee
Date Posted: 05/27/2015 at 9:25pm
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Can someone confirm if the LP player is indeed playing with OX. I am amazed the way he hits with the LP towards the later part of the video. Also, does anyone know what type of Blade and LP he is using. ------------- My Feedback:http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68326&PID=826612 TBS Tenergy 64 Juice Patisuma |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 05/28/2015 at 2:49am
If you can control it, LP 1.0 is easier to chop off the table. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: kevo
Date Posted: 05/28/2015 at 9:36am
Yes, he's using Superwall OX on the OSP Immune OX blade. I've never played with Superwall, but I play with the Immune OX. It's a combo blade--slow, hard BH side--ideal for OX LP--and a softer, faster attacking (FH) side. It is, quite simply, the best combo blade I've ever used. So perfectly consistent on both sides, massive sweet spot and lovely dwell time on the FH and total control on the BH. AS well as the control on the BH side, however, it seems to add wobble to the ball and definitely gives better reverse spin on blocks than any other defensive blades I've used with LPs. (Donic Senso, Hallmark Aurora, Hallmark Combo). The blade is handmade in Hungary and you can choose your own handle and from 3 different blade face sizes. Not cheap but not outrageous either for the best blade I've ever owned. |
Posted By: Tufeis
Date Posted: 05/28/2015 at 10:19am
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OSP IMMUNE OX DER MATERIALSPEZIALIST SUPERWALL OX LP RED |
Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 05/28/2015 at 11:29am
======================= Where to buy this rubber, about how much it costs? ------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 05/28/2015 at 11:52am
Here: http://shop.der-materialspezialist.com/Rubber/Long-Pimple/der-materialspezialist-SUPERWALL::3.html?MODsid=544225b7764313ee355b8336664afe54" rel="nofollow - http://shop.der-materialspezialist.com/Rubber/Long-Pimple/der-materialspezialist-SUPERWALL::3.html?MODsid=544225b7764313ee355b8336664afe54 ------------- OSP Ultimate; Dr. Neubauer Dominance Spin Hard max, Dr. Neubauer Troublemaker 0.5 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55835&title=feed-back-for-matt-pimple" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 05/28/2015 at 12:02pm
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