Coachvideo on how to loop underspin with tacky rub
Printed From: Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET
Category: Coaching & Tips
Forum Name: Coaching & Tips
Forum Description: Learn more about TT from the experts. Feel free to share your knowledge & experience.
Moderator: yogi_bear
Assistant Moderators: APW46, smackman
URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62513
Printed Date: 05/02/2024 at 5:36am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Coachvideo on how to loop underspin with tacky rub
Posted By: kajba
Subject: Coachvideo on how to loop underspin with tacky rub
Date Posted: 09/01/2013 at 3:25pm
|
Another stupid thread when I couldnt find the information I wanted. I am using tacky rubber and I have huge problems to loop heavy underspin ball and bad habits it showing. By that I mean I use movement which is half for tacky rubbers and half european rubbers which makes 80% of the time the ball doesnt go over the net. So I just wonder if someone could make some coaching video on how to do it with multiball and stuff. ------------- Primary blade: Appelgren Allplat V2 FH: DHS H3 NAT BH: Donic M2 BTY Viscaria FH: DHS H3 NAT BH: Mark V |
Replies:
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 09/01/2013 at 4:25pm
Hi Kajba the truth is, good technique will work whether your rubber is tacky or european or whatever. Part of your problem may be in attaching too much importance to theories about using japanese and european rubbers differently. I would recommend simplifying your approach. A good start might be googling PingSkills who have published excellent online video tutorials on how to play. The techniques they describe are correct and well explained. good luck ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
kajba wrote:Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/01/2013 at 7:46pm
There are all kinds of videos like you want. Do a Google search. Another coaching site which is good is Table Tennis Master.
------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: LethalForehand
Date Posted: 09/01/2013 at 8:23pm
|
its actually true that you need different technique for chinese/euro loop. for chinese, check out the 'drill your skills' section on stiga's website |
Posted By: decoi
Date Posted: 09/01/2013 at 8:39pm
yeah they have a decent tutorial on looping backspin balls ------------- Blade: DHS Hurricane Hao FH: TG3 BS BH: Xiom Omega 4 Aisa Blade: Hurricane Hao 2 (656) Fh: Dhs Gold Arc 3 Bh: Stiga Tour H http://www.youtube.com/user/decoyla?feature=mhee |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/01/2013 at 11:13pm
As someone who has and who can use both Chinese and European rubbers on the forehand, I can confirm that the same strokes will work for both types of rubbers. The difference between Chinese and European rubbers has more to do with the degree of hardness of the sponge and how that affects catapult - grip and tack generally tend to have the same effect. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 12:33am
+1 ------------- I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 1:22am
Sure, you can use the same technique, but European rubbers are better utilized with a more concave loop motion rather than a more convex one with Chinese rubbers. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 5:05am
You can't make this stuff up... ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 5:12am
|
I have a concave loop and use Euro rubber but I can loop perfectly fine with Chinese rubber. For non-elite players looping backspin it really doesn't matter what rubber you use - you just need to get your technique honed correctly. ------------- I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 5:19am
|
If you are on Facebook. I have some videos there http://www.facebook.com/tonystabletennis" rel="nofollow - www.facebook.com/tonystabletennis |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 6:47am
|
I wonder, maybe MYTT could sponsor a training camp, where the players are split into groups:- Euro rubber Japanese Rubber Chinese Rubber should be quite popular with a lot of our posters  I wouldn't be a coach at that camp for all the tea in china! ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 7:22am
No, it's not actually true. (Unless, of course, you have some concrete evidence that it's true - with video, stats and graphs, and a doctoral paper. Otherwise, you're just making this up.)
|
Posted By: SmackDAT
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 8:38am
|
It's basically the same stroke, although I find with a harder rubber I (tend to) loop forward more, but I can do my default loop stroke with a soft rubber and a chinese rubber. ------------- Zhang Jike ALC AN (88g) Tenergy 05 Hard (2.1, B) Tenergy 19 (2.1, R) https://goo.gl/bFWoxW" rel="nofollow - https://goo.gl/bFWoxW |
Posted By: Re1Mu2R3
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 9:10am
|
Just watch any Chinese vs Joo Se Hyuk match. Should give you an idea on how the stroke is done. ------------- How to play Table Tennis: #1. Be Chinese (Ethnicity) #2. Be Chinese(Citizenship) #3. BE CHINESE(In Heart, Mind and Spirit) #4: Get a Chinese Coach #5. Get a Chinese Forehand Rubber (Black) |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 10:24am
What about Samsonov v Joo? ------------- I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 10:49am
|
There is a mild danger in watching pros - you sometimes don't know when they are depending on special talents and the degree of spin on the incoming ball. Just watch a basic tutorial and practice. Most of the problems with looping underspin come from timing, not starting below/behind the ball and wanting to drive it no matter how heavy it is. Those things are fixed with practice. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Re1Mu2R3
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 11:25am
He specifically said looping with tacky rubbers.
I agree with this though. A friend of mine found me pretty hard to play against when I first switched to short pips. He attempted to use the same loop drive motion on wobbly and float ball pushes and got frustrated. ------------- How to play Table Tennis: #1. Be Chinese (Ethnicity) #2. Be Chinese(Citizenship) #3. BE CHINESE(In Heart, Mind and Spirit) #4: Get a Chinese Coach #5. Get a Chinese Forehand Rubber (Black) |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 11:35am
|
Kajba its normal to have problems against backspin unless you are quite a good player. Your problem is to make that step. find a practice partner who chops, and spend a couple of months learning slow, safe topspin. When you can go 20 shots without an error, try a bit faster, and so on. If tabletennis was easy, they would have called it Football  good luck ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 12:17pm
He said he uses tacky rubber but the point is that it makes no difference. ------------- I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 12:31pm
|
when looping backspin, instead of contacting the ball at 4 o'clock with grippy rubbers (blade's angle more open), contacting the ball higher at 3 o'clock with the same stroke is better with tackiness on the topsheet. the 'time' analogy is just an example; with tackiness, the contact point on the ball is just a bit higher (the blade's angle is less open). to be verified! (I do not have enough experience with tacky topsheets). ------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 12:37pm
We have to up the comp package for Paddy to bait him into this job... ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: LethalForehand
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 1:05pm
|
okay, lets clarify something! Are we talking about slow spinny loop of backspin balls or powerloops? When I say there is a difference between euro and chinese stroke I mean (should have made it clear) the chinese mostly powerloop backspin, with a more open racket angle, early timing and powering through the ball. This is difficult to do with a softer sponge (euro..). Just watch how timo boll lifts backspin with a late timing and how wang liqin or xu xin does that with earlier timing. clearly different. Those who say the stroke is the same are right when we talk strictly about slow spinny topspin of backspin ball. But above a certain level powerlooping is a must, and its getting tremendouzly difficult to put speed on spinny loops with a chinese rubber. Thats why I would suggest an early timing and powerlooping to anyone serious about using chinese rubber (tacky or not, but with hard sponge) |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 1:13pm
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 3:53pm
Depends on your definition of "perfectly fine". People who use a concave stroke with classic Chinese rubbers always complain about its lack of speed, when in fact they're just not using it right. Here's an example of the differences: Both are standard drills vs. blocking, note how Ma Long uses a considerably more convex stroke. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 4:17pm
|
Sorry, I'm getting off topic a bit, I was discussing looping motions in general. When looping backspins there's very little technical difference between the two. It's not true that Euro rubbers can't drive. In fact, they loop drive very well and uses essentially the same motion as with Chinese rubbers. The key to looping backspin, as NextLevel pointed out, is timing. This involves two things that newbies often neglect: 1) A backspin ball slows down upon bouncing on the table, but a newbie would often begin the stroke at a distance that's the same as if looping a blocked topspin. Then often end up looping with a more forward motion in order to hit the ball as the ball is more forward (i.e. farther away from you) than they expect. The ball consequently drops into the net. If you often find yourself having to lean forward just to hit the ball, then this is likely at least part of your problem. They try to compensate by opening up the angle more, but that decreases the brushing motion and the shot becomes very erratic, more like a hit than a loop. The solution is to either move your body forward a bit to meet the backspin ball or to wait for it to come to you a bit longer than with a blocked topspin. 2) Many players loop the ball into the net and think that the solution is to loop harder. That's not entirely correct. If you find yourself looping with all your strength with a very upward motion and the ball still falls into the net, then this is likely at least a part of your problem. The key is not to contact the ball with maximum racket speed, but with maximum racket acceleration. Do NOT begin accelerate your racket maximally until RIGHT BEFORE your racket reaches the ball. This is a very crucial point for both FH and BH loops vs. backspin. If you do this, you'll find that if you simply want to loop a backspin back, it really doesn't require a whole lot of strength. This is the reason why even 10 year old girls can loop backspins consistently. Maximum acceleration gives you maximum dwell time, this allows your racket to almost "carry" the ball forward. If you loop with maximum strength from the start if your motion, then your racket would have reached maximum speed with zero acceleration when it contacts the ball. This decreases dwell time and it's very easy for a heavy backspin ball to slip off the racket into the net. Now, for those who are reading this thread, you might wonder which advice is correct, so consider the sources. I am, for example, someone who rose from well below 1000 level to 1850 in about 1.5 years with no coaching, little training, and a very busy schedule limiting my playing time. I did so by being a student of the game. Many others developed their skills with years and years of training and playing and developed their game through unconscious muscle memory and only THEN developed theories as to why their strokes work. I, on the other hand, developed the theories first and tested them out one by one until I found the strokes that worked. If you're looking for advice on this board, then you're looking for theories that definitively leads to improvement, which are what mine are. Sorry for perhaps coming off as arrogant here, but it's easy for newbies to get overwhelmed by the sheer variety of advice given on this board and it's important for them to pick out which ones are tried and true.
------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 5:41pm
|
Looping underspin balls is the hardest task to do.. Racket proper acceleration is the keypoint here. High speed acceleration is needed. Good luck. |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 5:52pm
Yup, cannot overstate the importance of acceleration. And do take note that it's acceleration and not necessarily speed that allows your rubber to hold onto the ball and bring it up and forward. I recommend new players to train this shot before focusing on looping vs. blocks, because you won't get a blocked topspin back if you can't make the first topspin and therefore will never get to use your beautiful looking loops in real games. If you don't master the loop vs. backspin first, you'll end up like one of those players who warm up like Tarzan but play like Jane. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 7:06pm
I mean perfectly fine. Against backspin (which is the topic of the thread) I probably even slightly prefer Chinese rubber. Also, players like Xu Xin and Zhang Jike use Chinese rubber and yet appear to have a concave loop when playing heavy chop. For a beginner/intermediate player (which I presume the OP is - given that he has trouble looping heavy backspin) the type of rubber makes zero difference when it comes to learning how to loop backspin. ------------- I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 8:09pm
|
SPIN THE WHEEL ! Looping underspin balls is the hardest task to do.. THE racket proper acceleration is the keypoint here. High speed acceleration is needed. SPIN THE WHEEL! In Russia, spinning training wheel is a common exercise with table tennis students everywhere.., for most coaches here strongly believe the wheel to be the best effective device for learning how to handle backspin. You can't improve your attacking skill without taking the "wheel lessons" regularly. NOTE: playing tt-robot is of little service here. No robot can give you 50rps backspin. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 8:17pm
|
A 2500 player at my club uses and teaches a convex motion with Tenergy. Let's stop confusing personal preferences with objective facts. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: DDreamer
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 8:20pm
|
Stipancic had a convex swing and used Sriver. He managed to loop moderately ok against backspin.
------------- I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 8:34pm
|
i have both convex and concave shape to my stroke, at different times. concave when looping against block and when looping backspin when the hitting point brings my hand close to the table. When you consider that the racket only contacts the ball for a fraction of a second, it hardly seems sane to worry about something which is defined by the backswing and followthrough ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: reflecx
Date Posted: 09/02/2013 at 10:12pm
I think that contrary to what you're saying, you want maximum racket speed at contact, NOT maximum acceleration. Maximum acceleration probably occurs near the start of the swing, when the racket speed is close to zero. To overcome backspin, your racket speed has to be greater than the rotational speed of the ball.
|
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 1:02am
I apologize for the misunderstanding, I was referring to looping in general, particularly against topspins. The motion for looping backspins is indeed pretty much identical between Chinese and European rubbers. I myself, however, find Chinese rubbers are identical in brushing loops but more difficult with drives when it comes to backspin. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 1:16am
No, I meant maximum acceleration. F=ma, since mass stays the same, maximum acceleration will happen when you use maximum force, which is the key to this stroke. Use your maximum force and give your racket maximum acceleration right before contact. Even a 10 year old girl can generate the racket speed necessary to overcome any backspin--a backspin doesn't rotate nearly as fast as a topspin mind you--so that's not the issue here. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: reflecx
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 3:16am
F=ma is not the appropriate equation here. Read the comments by David Bernstein in Larry Hodges's blog. I cringed when I first read that entry, good thing he deleted most of the wrong info. http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1350 |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 6:57am
This is a wrong explanation of speed vs acceleration, given there's no such thing as distinguishing between the two since the dwell time is too small. What does matter is precise AND higher racket speed (than returning topspin), of which the timing to accelerate (ie whip) the blade to correct speed is critical. Unlike returning topspin, which is relatively insensitive because the returned ball has both your and opponent's topspin and easily arcs downwards, returning backspin requires you to both generate all of that topspin and then some AND more accurate balance of your spin vs incoming spin. That means you have to read what's coming better AND control how fast your bat hits the ball better. A lot of amateur players have poor looping form where they don't whip enough so just generating enough speed is a struggle. Imagine pressing a nail into the wall rather than pounding it. This can still work OK at lower level for top, but not for "heavy" backspin.
Sure, if that 10 year old girl has good looping form and reads the spin right. It doesn't really take that much power since this can be traded off for length of backswing. You can also trade off bad read with more speed. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 7:01am
You can also do this w/ upside down bicycle. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 7:10am
Concave vs convex is often misunderstand as fundamental difference when they're just variation on same stroke. Concave means more lateral contact, less directly into blade face. Ie. more spin, less speed. This can counteract faster blade (or faster rubber but less so). Convex is opposite, and therefore more common with slower blade given same resulting shot. Same player can vary this (or not) based on how much spin/speed they want with given angle of attack. This is all basic geometry of the stroke/contact. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 9:57am
F=ma is ALWAYS the appropriate equation. That blog is about how to generate the maximum F, which is not the point of discussion here. You can worry about generating maximum force (hips, legs, and all the other things mentioned in the blog) after you've understood how to land the ball on the table first. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 10:09am
Sorry, but I don't care how great form a 10 year old girl has, any able-bodied adult male will be able to easily generate faster racket speed. As for the dwell time issue, I'm an engineer myself and I do have some trouble reconciling the short, <5 ms contact time with the phenomenom of dwell. The feeling and importance of dwell is real, and the only explanation I can come up with is that while we can calculate roughly the amount of dwell time and the effects of acceleration, we cannot know just how much that difference translates to gameplay.
Just try it out. Swing as hard as you possibly can, use your full power from the moment you begin your forward swing, see how well you loop a backspin. Then try being completely lackadaisical, don't move your hips/legs or even shoulder an inch throughout the swing, and only use your arm to swing and swing it slow, accelerate fast at the point of contact. You'll see the difference in importance between maximum speed and maximum acceleration very easily.
------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 10:12am
|
dingyibvs, it would really help to read that link and reply before commenting further. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 10:17am
Sure, but not with terrible technique (incl timing). A lot of lower level able-bodied adult males "loop" like they're pushing the ball over.
There's another active thread on dwell atm on the forum and I'd encourage you read it.
If you're an engineer and thus ostensibly taken at least intro physics, you should realize that's not how acceleration and speed works. -- What you're really describing here is the reality that most amateurs (incl myself) don't play well enough to consistently control a full whip/loop stroke (which is what good jr's are trained to do), and thus a smaller motion is more effective in practice. The main point of disagreement is that this max acc motion is always the "best" stroke (ie for topspin, too) as long as you can use it well. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 10:38am
Prove it! I am serious! The acceleration is necessary to get the paddle to the right speed but the dwell time is so short, any change in speed will make little difference. The speed of impact and angle of the paddle are most important. ------------- Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br /> |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 10:47am
You mean Bernstein's comment? I've read it, and I've addresed it in my previous post, I suppose I'll need to address it in detail here. The physics involved isn't difficult, anyone who's had say physics 2 in college can make the calculation. My thought is that while dwell time is small, it may not be irrelevant as Bernstein presumed.
A MLB pitcher can thow the ball at 100+ MPH, we can't do that, but let's say we can swing at 35 MPH, which is equivalent to 15.64 meters per second, or 1.564 cm/ms. This means that even with a dwell time of 1 ms, the racket will have moved ~1.5cm, or about 1/10 of the blade's width, during this time.
The math for this part is easy, but the question really is that is this all really relevant? The math to prove that is much more difficult, because we have no idea how much your arm can accelerate during this period. I think most experienced TT players, however, will tell you that it's very important. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: reflecx
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 11:38am
So you're rather loop a backspin ball where at impact time your racket is moving at 0 m/s with acceleration of 10 m/s2 vs moving at 10 m/s with 0 acceleration? |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 11:51am
In theory, you could even have the max acceleration at a negative speed, ie a velocity opposite in direction to the acceleration. I don't think dingybvs would want that when looping underspin LOL
|
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 12:06pm
|
to be frank, IMO all these convex vs concave loop is just an illusion caused by looking at the loops from a side view, try looking at them from a back view and all becomes clear. These loops have the same mechanism, the only difference is the blade angle. Ma Long and Wang Liqin loop with a very open racket angle (with an emphasis on speed), while players like Zhang Jike, Fan Zhendong and Timo Boll loop with a much more closed racket angle (with an emphasis on spin). To me the form and feeling of ball contact is the most important thing in looping underspin. I would suggest that you start looping backspin by scooping the ball up with an open blade angle and just bring the ball onto the table with good height and some side-topspin (some people call it a roll). You can loop any backspin no matter how heavy it is with this manner. As you get the feeling of neutralising the backspin and producing some decent side-topspin with this technique, start closing your blade angle and involve more of your legs to "push" the ball upwards and forwards at contact, then you will find that as you close the blade more, you would need to swing harder and the spin that you impart on the ball becomes more vicious. Think spin instead of speed. But if you do not have the ball feeling required to loop underspin, any attempts on "increasing speed" or "increasing acceleration" is in vain. You must first be able to bring the ball onto the table with decent net clearance effortlessly before you even attempt to increase power. Ball feeling is the most important issue here for those who cannot reliably loop backspin, not power. Once you have the ball feeling, all these stuff about acceleration and speed will occur naturally as you close the paddle and use more of your legs/waist to drive the ball. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 12:35pm
|
^Great post. I wish I had read this a few years ago, not long after I started TT. It took me a long time to realize this and starting doing it, and I'm still trying to get the right ball feel... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 2:00pm
Nah - there is a real and important difference between concave and convex looping motions (AgentHex described it). I agree with the rest of what you said about underspin. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: TTFrenzy
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 2:22pm
|
The most important thing in looping is to have correct timing and I mean being always in the right position to exert maximum force (optimally with minimum effort for fast recovery= relaxed muscles not tensed) when the ball is at your optimal "sweet spot" of your body. "You have to time all the components of your body so that racket meets ball at the moment of maximum racket speed." Very accurate reply indeed in Larry Hodge's blog ( check 1st comment at this link http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1350" rel="nofollow - http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1350 ) Mathematical types like F=Ma are just small pixels of the whole image and must be taken into consideration only for the time period that we hit the ball which is easy to learn...moving EFFICIENTLY before and after we hit the ball is the most difficult part. For me there are some "Steps" of the whole procedure which I use when I teach strokes 1.Getting into position (footwork) 2. Backswing (putting our weight to our back leg,turning the waist and shoulder with harmony) (can be executed simultaneously with step 1 for advanced/intermediate players, example is the loop usin cross step) 3.Hitting the ball (weight transfer from back to front leg, and as we move "forward or upward" we hit the ball by accelerating/turning all of our body with forearm&wrist snap 4.Getting into position, same as step 1, but changes according to the exercise (random FH, FH BH drills, Falkenberg or feeding the ball to the same spot for beginners) The spinning wheel is a great way to learn the basics of the stroke, but to be more complete you need practice vs robot for starters and then multiball or random placement drills Topspin Basics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX360a5qqls" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX360a5qqls Sweet Spot of your body http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka_H_H3iigI" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka_H_H3iigI (check 2:21 to 3:10 for the timing- body "sweet spot" relation" ------------- http://www.tabletennismaster.com/profiles/blog/list?user=28q3ehyh2hm9o" rel="nofollow - my TT blog! Join & follow my TT blog ! Mental and Physi |
Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 2:53pm
|
what the hell is concave loop? Who comes up with this crap? Why is everything overcomplicated here? Just brush the damm ball up. No wrist. Open your elbow all the way, drop it down and relax. Now rotate the turret from the waist, swing the arm from the shoulder, and flex a little just before contact in the elbow. No wrist. Even with BH, little to no wrist. If you learn to use the wrist in brushing you will have a sissy, half-ass shot that will be spinny and will clear the net but will be slam-dunked on the other side. ------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: TTFrenzy
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 3:24pm
No wrist?  Looping with wrist is very effective and fast and far better than looping without wrist snap. The difficult part of the wrist snap is to coordinate it correctly with the rest body motion (legs hips waist shoulder forearm and then wrist) No wrist loop can be teached to players with lack of body coordination, but since you master a "no wrist" loop it is time to put more momentum by adding the wrist snap. p.s. Im referring to "maximum explosion" loops with minimum effort, and the wrist snap adds even more spin & speed to the ball. No wrist loop would be effective if the opponent is far away from the table, the incoming ball is slow (playing with a chopper for example) so you can loop it pass and close the net to make him move and take him out of position. But this "close to the net" loop can be also executed with wrist for good spin but with slower execution and a more vertical paddle ------------- http://www.tabletennismaster.com/profiles/blog/list?user=28q3ehyh2hm9o" rel="nofollow - my TT blog! Join & follow my TT blog ! Mental and Physi |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 4:18pm
IF you watch any top-level player loop underspin, you will see a shift of the wrist position. Don't mind Assiduous - he likes to act like he knows what he doesn't. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 4:48pm
|
We are talking about heavy backspin off the end of the table. There is no wrist in FH and very little on the BH. Some shots like ZJK's opening loop when receiving serve have wrist, but that is rarely heavy backspin, usually mixed spin and very close to the net, over the table, where wrist action is the only swing physically possible. That is different from what the OP is asking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpXuiYap94" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpXuiYap94 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlBd0LWP6lM" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlBd0LWP6lM I used to do everything with wrist when i was learning to loop. My opponents were 1500 and coulnd't block nothing and i though i had a good loop. As I started playing higher opps my loops' weakness was exposed in a very obvious, sometimes humiliating way. One day at a tournament a bulgarian professional coach told me that I used way too much wrist and my loops are soft and weak. He said if u have proper technique you don't need wrist for spin. I took me one year to redo all my loops but i am very proud now. That's when I also discovered that soft sponges suck. ------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 4:54pm
|
next level, where are you from? I want to challenge you to a match.
I have to admit I have caught myself wrong way too often. But you simply don't have the expertise or skills or intelligence to stalk me in every thread and make condescending remarks. If you are going to do this, you really should pick someone your own level.
------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: TTFrenzy
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 5:14pm
well, if that was the case there is a big difference in using "way too much wrist" (I suppose u didnt loop with you whole body back then) and using the wrist snap properly, as the finishing move of a stroke which involves 1) weight transfer from back to front leg 2)waist rotation in coordination with 1) 3)forearm snap and finally 4)wrist snap I was talking about adding the wrist snap as the final "part" of your stroke which makes it easier to loop with spin & speed a heavy backspin shot. ------------- http://www.tabletennismaster.com/profiles/blog/list?user=28q3ehyh2hm9o" rel="nofollow - my TT blog! Join & follow my TT blog ! Mental and Physi |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 5:17pm
Concave vs convex (or really should be called less-concave) is very much real. It's possible that because it's somewhat more advanced technique that folks can get to quite decent level without knowing it, but I'm pretty sure high level player have to understand it to some extent (even if just intuitively). To illustrate, consider the flip, the extreme of a concave "loop". The intent here is a high-ish spin/speed ratio to clear a low/short ball over the net. The brush contact is thin, which is why the stroke is almost like wrapping around the ball (vs the direct pounding of a non-concave drive). Because the brush is relatively thin for the speed of the contact, good touch is required (which is why it requires decent level to execute). Incidentally this is also why fast setups (low dwell) make this sort of precision touch shot harder to execute and significant part of why the players who emphasize early point control (ie CNT) use seemingly slower equipment than ideal for rally. But you are correct ball feeling is very important to do this. The statements just above demonstrate why. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 5:22pm
|
Also btw you shouldn't think too much about wrist snap. It just happens if you loosen you arm for the whip stroke. Think of when you throw a ball or something really hard, your brain will know when to release it at apex of speed after acceleration. High level players basically control the apex of that throw very precisely and consistently, that's how they always hit so hard. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 5:42pm
In that ZJK video, he is clearly using the wrist to me, even though I can't see his finishing position. It is one of those things that I can tell because I do it. However, I can see why you can't see it. It's very subtle.
I agree you don't need wrist for spin. However, wrist can make your life much easier. When one of my clubmates asked Dimitri Ovtcharov how he generates so much power, Ovtcharov replied "Strong wrists!" ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 6:06pm
|
If you're actively/conscientiously wristing shots (either less or more), then you're doing it wrong anyway. The only place where it kind of manifests itself is in very spinny over the table stuff where advanced players lock their hand back far as possible for max swing length. See Wang Hao for extreme example. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: TTFrenzy
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 6:24pm
exactly! the wrist snap should be the result of a relaxed effort (in all sports a good athlete must "chase" minimum effort strokes with maximum efficiency, difficult to learn but when achieved the consistency levels are peaking, martial arts work this way also) . You said in one sentence what I was trying to clarify in 2 big paragraphs. Thank you  ------------- http://www.tabletennismaster.com/profiles/blog/list?user=28q3ehyh2hm9o" rel="nofollow - my TT blog! Join & follow my TT blog ! Mental and Physi |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 7:20pm
Actually, this is not necessarily true and varys from player to player. And there is a fine line between allowing the wrist to torque and letting the wrist torque and there is also a not-so-fine line between making the wrists stronger with exercises and having stronger wrists impact even your relaxed strokes. Stronger wrists make relaxed strokes even more powerful!
Ultimately, everyone develops their own technique and given success and injuries etc., becomes the role model for success or failure. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 7:32pm
|
There only needs to be enough wrist muscle or whatever to prevent the stroke from being unstable and control/fine-tune the general direction of the hand, unless maybe some oddball player is using it for deception or somesuch odd touch shot that only uses the wrist. Amateur players tend to develop all sorts of cockamamie theories of how to do things when the reality is often much more straightforward. Your body already knows when it maximizes speed at contact (like in practice). That's why naturally gifted athletes are pretty quick to be good at just about anything, but the rest of us need a little help to explain what's going on. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 7:42pm
|
If for some reason this is confusing, go out to a field and throw some rocks/ball like you would loop the ball. Try throwing hard as you can; are you thinking about wrist? Now dial back and go as hard as you can while hitting a given far-ish spot (basically move the spot further until you can't hit it accurately); starting to think about wrist? Very good players do basically this except they can hit the ball right where they release the object every time. You can also try this in TT against robot but amateur player will only land one of X shots they execute at anywhere close to full power. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 8:18pm
|
AgentHex, who is the highest rated player you have had a chance to watch train/develop? ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 8:32pm
|
Former US #1.
------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 8:35pm
|
poor op lol, why so much complication everyone should be on the same basic wavelength here ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 9:23pm
Sorry if it wasn't clear enough, but I think in my previous posts I mentioned that you need to have enough racket speed to overcome the spin, which I pointed out that it was of no concern since even a 10 year old girl can accomplish that. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 9:34pm
I completely agree! The Chinese rubbers work well with the convex stroke precisely because it's not bouncy, when I try the same stroke with European rubbers, I can only do it with a small, shortened stroke and not with a straight armed full powered stroke.
------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 9:39pm
Hey look, we actually agree on something! You can most certainly intentionally use a wristy move, I've recently started doing it, and my training partner who's so used to even my most powerful loops had a TON of trouble blocking more than 2 shots in a row. It wasn't even by design, I changed my grip slightly so that my racket lies a bit higher now, and to make the transition easier I decided to bend my wrist down and my goodness the spin it added! ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: reflecx
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 11:41pm
So when does your F=ma come into play? Only when the racket speed is high enough to overcome the spin? |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/03/2013 at 11:48pm
If you hold your arm (which incl your hand) relatively loose, the wrist should already bend back during beginning of swing. Trying throwing something far (the reason to do this is set bad TT habits aside) and it's easy to observe. An intentionally "wristy" stroke means you're modifying this natural behavior for which there should be some compelling reason. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 12:00am
If you know him personally (since you say you watched him train/develop), ask him what the role of the wrist is in table tennis. Let us know if he says that the wrist should just be loose and that it has no active role in looping chop when forehand looping (I assume that you have no argument over the role of the wrist on the backhand side) or even in many other forehand strokes. I would have thought Ovtcharov was a good enough resource, but let's hope that he can be trumped by a former US #1. http://tabletennis.about.com/od/beginnersfaqs/f/wrists_pingpong.htm Top players develop very strong wrists - that you think this is something amateurs make up speaks more to your ignorance than anything else. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 12:10am
|
LOL: For players with weak wrists, I would certainly recommend strengthening them as much as possible to try to bring them up to adequate levels, so that the wrist can perform its function of adding wrist snap to strokes when desired, in order to increase speed and spin, or change direction of the shot. So overall, once a minimum amount of strength is reached, extra strength is helpful but not essential, and maintaining flexibility and touch in your wrists becomes more important. Once enough wrist strength is present to allow strokes to be performed without a handicap, I then think that flexibility and touch in your wrist is more important than pure strength ---- What's really funny here is the mouthing off despite zero clue what he's talking about. The "wrist snap" here isn't some forced wrist motion which requires extra musculature but exactly the motion at the end of a whipped loop. You can also hold the wrist still to trade off power for some extra stability if need be. Bothering high level player for such tripe seems unnecessary. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 12:26am
|
Usually, people who are trying to be objective (as opposed to just insult people) read the whole post: For players with normal wrist strength, I think that it certainly would not hurt to have stronger wrists when playing table tennis. I remember one of my past table tennis coaches used to have a wrist roller device, which was a long metal pipe with string wrapped around it, with a brick tied to the end of the string. You had to roll the brick up to the pipe, and then lower it again, using only your wrists. It was very good for strengthening your wrists while still keeping them flexible. Why did this part of the article elude you? To get extra speed/spin, the body has quite a few levers - feet/heels, knees, waist/abs, elbow, wrist, and last but not least, fingers. No one has to use them all, but the stronger they all are, the easier it is to access power for speed and spin.
I guess at some point, one has to throw up one's hands and admit that making mountains out of molehills isn't worth it. I think it is a bit deceptive to regard such control as letting the wrist be loose when there is a significant timing and grip element involved. I doubt anyone who lets the wrist pronates does so without having learned to control it first. However, since you have trained players to use your methods, I am sure they speak for themselves. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 12:35am
|
Finally, one can read this article and see whether the author of the article I cited thinks about wrist usage the same way AgentHex does. But in any case, when people master something, it is easy to act as if they never worked at it. http://tabletennis.about.com/od/TwoMinuteTips/a/Wrist-And-Risk-Management.htm My last post on this issue. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 12:41am
|
Really? For players with normal wrist strength, I think that it certainly would
not hurt to have stronger wrists when playing table tennis. So your only point here for this pathetic attempt at a burn is "don't forget to exercise wrists, too"? Here's a tip for nubs at this game: mockery only works well when it's attached to some apropos delivery vehicle. For example, an actual embarrassing error or somesuch. Starting with absolutely nothing makes you a pendant. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 12:47am
Exactamente! Having only one is not enough, you need both! Of course, my original post was designed to point out a common mistake made by newbies, which is typically not the inability to generate the racket speed to overcome the spin, but the unawareness of the power of acceleration at the point of contact. My bad for assuming that people would understand what I meant, though in retrospect it does certainly seem confusing to someone with a keen physics sense. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 12:49am
I don't play baseball, but I do believe that pitchers intentionally cock their wrists in all sorts of ways to impart various additional spin to the ball, which incidentally is what you may achieve by doing the same thing with a TT stroke. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 12:53am
"Type 1" (for smash) is exactly "type 2" (for loop) with a necessary change in wrist angle geared towards the shot in question. The change he's talking about is to stop locking the wrist on selective shots (I guess assuming he teaches strokes w/ locked wrist first), not somehow magically employing either one independently using musculature instead of the angular momentum of the hand (ie the snap). You're completely clueless how the basic swing works. If anyone wanna be srs about this, consider the angular momentum of the arm during its travel vs anything which can be done by pushing w/ the wrist. The comparison shouldn't even be close. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 12:59am
Don't play it either, but I think the basic hard throw (fastball) is just fast as possible down the chute. The curved ball are I suspect as you do done by cocking the hand slightly so the ball exits with a different spin, but same basic swing mechanics (same snap in same in-line direction as your hand, but obvious diff angle since you just changed it). The cocking itself isn't a power move far as physics is concerned. Again, a full arm swing can knock a guy out. Now try slapping him with the wrist only and compare the amount of force and resulting difference. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 2:24am
You gotta take into account the weight of the target you try to hit or accelerate. A TT ball is less than 3 grams. I'm no biologist but a guy's head weighs a few pounds? And it's attached to a torso! |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 2:42am
|
The ratio of power is still the same. Even if you built some kind of super-wrist, it would have minor effect compared to arm as a whole because the range is so limited. Like mini-hammer compared to meter-long handle sledgehammer. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 3:38am
so.... hows the looping of underspin ball coming along? |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 7:54am
|
Rather than tag people as being "clueless" or "having no clue what they are talking about", here are a couple more experts on wrist usage. Again, let's remember the two positions that are being debated here. AgentHex is saying that the correct way to use the wrist is to relax it so that it is torqued by the stroke, while I am saying that while that is an option, using the wrist and developing its strength so that it actually lends more spin/speed to your stroke is another option. I think that when someone has a strong and well timed wrist motion and he can use it in a relaxed manner, it is very easy to assume it was always part of the stroke in a relaxed manner. Here is Larry Hodges http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/taxonomy/term/886" rel="nofollow - discussing a thread on this very forum.
I wonder whether the chop is a slower ball.... ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: chopchopslam
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 10:19am
|
Geez what a mess of a thread. Arguments about Euro vs Chinese, convex vs concave, wrist vs no-wrist, who cares!? The best answer to the OP's question lies within the post from blahness:
Basically, learn by starting with a slow loop (lots of brushing motion, but as slow as possible forward momentum) to get the feel of returning heavy backspin. Then once that becomes more comfortable you can gradually add speed and turn it into a powerloop. That's all you need to know! ------------- Butterfly Grubba Pro Tenergy 80 National Team Pogo LP .6mm |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 10:28am
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 12:11pm
This is wrong dinglyibvs, you should know that the speed will be a maximum or minimum with the derivative, the acceleration, is 0. When I watch good players loop chopped balls they usually start with the paddle down by their knee so they have plenty to time to accelerate the paddle to the desired speed before impact. There are a few good videos of players looping balls against bogeyhunter. There is one player bogey that bogey played with, Larry, that has a very big swing, Bogey lost a Chinese girl that had a very big swing. When looping back chopped balls you usually have time to make a bigger swing. If you can accelerated the paddle over more distance the acceleration doesn't need to be as high. This saves wear and tear on the arm and shoulder. There is a good William Henzel video practicing looping against a Japanese chopper. Henzel lowers his paddle to his right knee and swing up behind the ball. ------------- Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br /> |
Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 3:50pm
Ok, if you have way into Chicagoland let me know and will set up a match. ------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 3:59pm
|
I was out yesterday but looking through AgenHEX's posts i think my opinion overlaps completely on this particular wrist issue. I agree with the example throwing the stone and that there is some wrist on over the table ZJK-like opening loop and some odd balls where you want to send the ball in different direction in the last second. Generally all beginners when introduced to topspin they start weird jerking with the wrist. Not only it is unnecessary, but it's counter productive and can lead to injuries in the long run. Newbies brush too much and wrist too much and avoid good deep contact with the ball. You have to make good contact with the ball, there is no substitute for that. You have to feel the weight of the ball. If you make a good contact and open the paddle and swing with everything you have, all joints, not just the wrist - you have good power and believe me, it will not lack spin. ------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 4:05pm
You continue to have this penchant for calling me out even though it's never worked and only resulted in hilarious embarrassment thus far. We can reasonably conclude from this that learning from mistakes is not a strength here, which would explain the plethora of them, so keep this mind as we move along. First, as already explain several times, both the fundamental "strength" of the wrist both in terms of muscle and physics is so small compared to the arm that it matters much less in a loop (a power stroke) than you continue to figure. Second, a common amateur mistake/tendency is that players also tense up the arm a bit more too when they try to keep the wrist locked. Again, a simple experiment was proposed many times so you can see this for yourself rather than trust in anyone's authority. Try to keep the wrist from moving at all while you make the throw and see how far you get. Third, and this one is more of a nuanced pedagogical point so I expect the inevitably pedantic reply will attach here. When teaching something, do you teach as it would be used or slowly build step by step? This would depend on the student, capability of the teacher, and specifics of what is taught. IMO in this case, the power loop motion itself is simple enough there's no reason to go with gimpy half-measures, esp for faster learners (jr's, etc). Just swing slower/more relaxed for less power and more control. Others can disagree and that's ok because there's some level of subjective judgement here.
No shit sherlock. Use looser arm for more power on slower balls that require addition of spin than fast ones. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 4:08pm
This is a surprisingly correct post. Not entirely correct, but let's not ruin a good thing. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 7:02pm
Narcissism as a disorder does take many forms, including the exaggeration of the importance of one's actions. I have not any "mistakes" worth mentioning unless you can point out what the practical consequences of my mistakes are, other than that your perception of them bloats your ego.
I think you are taking the phrase "strength" so literally that it is clouding your judgment. First of all, the wrist can be fatigued, so getting some strength in the helps if one uses the wrist a lot for looping and flicking. Secondly, extra strength allows for faster torquing of the wrist. Wrist flexibility helps quite a bit as well, so both go hand in hand. And in terms of velocity, the wrist can pretty fast, in fact much faster the arm, making it very helpful for matching/exceeding the speed you need to loop heavy chop.
This is true, but it doesn't mean that you can't do more than simply let the wrist go through with the stroke and play at a high level, which is what I was pointing out. Moreover, the analogy to table tennis has its limits, but I digress.
Power looping as you conceive of it is not the only way to loop. I mean, look at Timo Boll's loop. Anyone who watches it and thinks that all Timo Boll is doing is relaxing his wrists is just mental.
No, not the addition of spin, but the difficulty of the timing. It is harder to time a fast ball. Heavy chop is slow, but many players would encourage you to use wrists when looping it. And the main point you were supposed to get from this is that letting the wrist go through naturally is what he asks beginners to do - using the wrist more is what he expects from players as they get better.
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 7:04pm
Not coming there anytime soon, but will keep it in mind. Usually, I'm good from Boston to Virgina Beach. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 7:36pm
Complete inaccurate idea of how a stroke works aside, http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62518&PID=745189&title=playing-with-left-hand-for-right-handed-people#745189" rel="nofollow - this is the most recent embarrassment so #fail that not even I could imagine it to be true at first. Try pondering the more realistic view that generally speaking I would be to you what you are to assiduous, then you might be better able to empathize with my situation. To be clear, I'm not even claiming this to be advanced nevermind omnipotent, only that some folks' understanding can be unimaginably bad.
Sure, any particular weakness in the body parts involved is not conducive to the stroke. I'm not sure why you feel this bears repeating given nobody disagrees with it. The relative strength argument is one someone who's ever worked with numbers or any task where one thing is bigger than another should be able to figure out but it's not the first I've overestimated you.
The wrist "snap" in a whip motion is not in itself torqued (ie by musculature), and in any case it's rather insignificant anyway if the reader can figure out what it means when one thing is bigger than another.
It is the basis of the stroke, one which takes a long time to master, but advanced players might find useful to tweak for minor advantages. We are not those players despite what you might think.
Stylistically speaking some people might prefer a shorter stroke or wherever but the basic mechanics are the same. The wrist in itself adds maybe 20% or so even when taking full advantage of swinging arm (likely much less using muscles only), so it's conceivable that someone figures out how to use it slightly more or less without messing up the rest of the stroke. However no pro can survive at highest level without an overall good swing esp now the glue days are over.
I don't think he's as dumb as you interpret him to be. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 09/04/2013 at 8:07pm
|
Or I suppose it's possible that NextLevel is just getting ready to launch this revolutionary new insight into the unsuspecting world of athletics. Soon we might start seeing baseball pitchers "wristing" their fastballs for an extra few mph, and footballers will "ankle" their superkicks right past befuddled goalkeepers. All the previous advice to get power from major body parts (ie loop kill from legs and waist) will be relegated to the history books, so remember this is where it all started folks. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: TTFrenzy
Date Posted: 09/05/2013 at 8:38am
|
For gods sake, stop hating and arguing . It's pointless. You are both right, but you seem to argue about imaginary details just to appear better than the other. So f#$#% childish. The wrist snap is an essential part of a perfect loop and in their own personal characteristic way agenthex and nextlevel are both correct. end of story ------------- http://www.tabletennismaster.com/profiles/blog/list?user=28q3ehyh2hm9o" rel="nofollow - my TT blog! Join & follow my TT blog ! Mental and Physi |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 09/05/2013 at 9:04am
|
The River Of The Arrow must be in another thread. Keep searching guys. Enlightenment beckons, and with it freedom from petty rivalries and the need to prove oneself in pointless debate. ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |