Using equipment that is "too fast" for you is doing it the hard way, IMO.  This approach means that will be making lots of mistakes until you can develop better touch.  In the meantime you are relying on the equipment to produce power and speed for you.  Instead, I'd suggest that you should learn how to produce that power and speed by refining your strokes without reliance on the equipment.

IMO, many people use equipment that is too fast for their game.  With good mechanics you can produce plenty of power and speed with an ALL blade and "classic" rubber.  You need to learn to walk before you run, and that means knowing how to hit/block with different gears from slow and spinny to fast and flat.  With equipment that is too fast, it's difficult to feel the difference and learn the touch.

Of course it depends on your style too.  Obviously those who play a very aggressive game benefit from fast equipment that reduces their opponents reaction time to give a good return.  But the offensive style is a game of percentages.  I would argue that even aggressive players would benefit by "backing off" on the speed of their equipment to develop better control in their game.  Even aggressive style players will eventually run into higher level players that block and/or counter attack the strokes that used to be automatic winners for them against lower level players.

FZD just won the German open using a 5 ply wood blade. Fast does not necessarily mean better.

Analogy time-

If you wanted to start racing should you start off with a fast car?

the opposite therory will also work if using slower gear and training hard and doing proper strokes

 table tennis is more than your reaction time and doing a smaller stroke to get the ball back you will be walloped by good players with that attitude

its all the other things that realy count, it's the short game, the control game, the power game , the 1st 3 points game etc etc

In general the quicker someone gets gear that will suit the persons style, persons level and potential, players goals, coaches goals then the better headstart you can get

 but in general using too fast setup will generally make you have more trouble against better players

 

Which wood blade in the real world, not the imaginary world in someone's head, has better control than a TBS, or my personal choice IF ZLC? Please let me know! 

Why does everybody keep repeating this nonsense? Must be a religious cult, where its about faith, not about facts.

Well at least according to FZD, his coaches, and WH who is his mentor, all wood blades seem to be better for them than fiber blades. FZD must be out of it to think that WH's blade is "really good". I guess they must not really know what they are doing. Come to think of it Ma Lin and WLQ are also not in the loop when it comes to composite blades. Oh wait RSM too. Man those guys would have soooo much more speed and control if they had gone with the TBS.

Excerpt from interview with FZD-

2. Think what exactly means handle

3. Get off- blade and two mid speed rubbers

The obsession with speed amongst players, especially lower level players, is understandable because initially, that is how they learn to win points because their opponents don't know how to bring fast balls back.  As you get better, the quality of fast ball required to win the point usually means that you have to set up your opponent.

So why talk about all this? It's to point out why control is important.  If you try to make your opponent unable to attack using strictly speed, you will fail pretty quickly if you cannot control where your shots get placed.  If you play sidespin loops that go wide with slow blade, you will probably win more easy points than someone that loops to his opponent with a fast blade.  Give it some thought.

What I really think is the use of the word "CONTROL" has placed a lot of confusion to many new and developing players alike, and even to some elders in the sport. This has been going on and on over the decades. In fact, I strongly believe it is just a terminology issue, labeling used by manufacturers. 

We are missing one component in the specs in describing the attributes of our equipment, be it a rubber, a blade, or the combination of the two. I say, CONTROL shouldn't be labelled on the blades specifically, and to rubbers as well. For some people are confused wether CONTROL is directly or indirectly related to SPEED. Thus, specifying CONTROL when there is already the word SPEED to the label only adds to the confusion.

As Zapenholder said "it's all about feeling" (some call it control).

This is where the mislabel is at where I think most players in forums are confused of.. some think of it as related to dwell time, some think of it as the amount of vibration, some think of it has something to do with speed, etc.

When in fact, logically we're all actually pertaining to "TOUCH".. it is by how much the equipment CLEARLY gives you the amount of FEEL of the ball-on-impact as it hits the racket, irregardless of dwell time or speed. That amount of feel or TOUCH is where we rely on how we should execute our response. Having said that, it only explains the dwell time could either be short or long but the clarity of feel is strong. Likewise, the SPEED could also either be fast or slow. 

 

That's a good point.  What is control?  Generally speaking I'd say more spin and lower speed gives you control, i.e. it allows you manipulate the ball to get it to land on the table with greater consistency.  Of course the quality of your stroke is important to implement consistent shots, but these qualities in the equipment give you more lattitude to execute consistent shots.

Yeah, the manufacturer ratings are somewhat arbitrary.  I think they give higher control ratings to blades because they supposedly have bigger "sweet spots", or they supposedly give a more uniform response throughout the surface of the blade (an argument for the carbon blades).  It's all very subjective really.

"Feel" is indeed what matters.  We're all trying to strike a balance between control (the ability to get the ball back on the table every time) and power (the ability to hit a winner that ends the point).  You need to discover what the right balance is for you and your style of play.  There isn't an automatic magical combination that fits every player.

I can come up with two different general criticisms for any equipment I may be trying: 1) It's hurting my defensive game, i.e. I'm having trouble consistently blocking, landing loops, returning serves well, and 2) It's hurting my offensive game, i.e. I can't seem to generate enough spin or speed to force my opponents to make an error.  Of course, training and coaching will improve your defensive and offensive games.  Thus the "right" equipment is a moving target that depends upon where your game level is at a given time.

What I want to destroy is the religious myth that fast blades have less control, that is shoved down the throat of all newbies, thus sending them in the wrong direction , causing them to lose a few years adopting their strokes to equipment they will ultimately discard. 

One more thing - this advice is only meaningful to people who want to put some effort and learn the real game of TT. Of course for basement players or someone who goes to a local club just to exercise it doesn't matter. They will never learn to loop and I will never care what they use.

And I am still waiting. Tell me which wood blades or ALL blades have better control than a TBS or my IF ZLC. The people with the revealing personal experience - can u give me some examples? 

Assiduous, go ahead and punch this guy in the face:

assiduous wrote: Man, this blade just changed my game without any practice. Yesterday I beat a 2000 player. My highest win ever. The matches that I lost were just as amazing. This blade makes short and mid distance looping so accurate. Everything goes in. All this time I have been developing my strokes to fit a IF ZLC trajectory but was using different blades. I don't like my Korbel at all any more. Feels hollow and slow and blurry in contrast. Man, I remember when I was posting here what a nice lively blade Primorac is. Then my game improved and Primo was too slow and the vibration was unbearable. Moved to Korbel and it was a bit faster but much more stable. Now that I've tried IF ZLC there is no coming back to Korbel. If I could go back I would just start with IF and get used to it. I think my game would have improved FASTER had I started with IF. I broke 1700 in just the last tournament but I feel confident and im signing up again

 

Yasaka Gatien Extra, Grubba Pro, Donic Applegren Allplay.

I don't know if it's subconscious but I feel like with the ball traveling at a slightly slower speed, that's more time for the ball to curve down onto the table vs flying long. Thus, overall my shots with that blade have more arc and seemingly more spin.

 

+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1

assiduous wrote: Does anybody else want to tell me a completely irrelevant (and not always real) story of their personal experience? I don't mind, I don't read them anyway, so if that makes ur day go ahead and share with us 'what happened the other day at the club', how those shots were 'deadly', and how you were supplying the power. Knock yourself out. Drain it out of your system.

Assiduous, punch this guy below in the face again:

You seem to be pushing a philosophy that says everyone should just use really fast equipment, and you will improve and get better results by forcing yourself to adapt to it.  Well, I simply don't agree that is a winning formula to get better as a player.

Ya know, the OP's question is actually not a bad suggestion from a training perspective.  Yes, using fast equipment can be an exercise in improving aspects of your game.  It can certainly help you to refine your blocking, your serve return, and etc as it will require you to be more precise with the incoming spin and speed to give a good return.  I would argue that you're not going to learn as much in developing good power and speed on your offensive shots with the same fast equipment.

You want anecdote, well here's one:  I struggled with a weak backhand push and block at a point early on in my development.  I could have avoided the weak backhand by using lower spin/speed rubber, but instead I did the opposite played with a super-tacky high spin rubber on the backhand for awhile.  After making lots of errors with the setup for awhile, I eventually started getting a better feel for the right paddle angles and reading the spin better.  It got me over the hump on getting rid of a weakness in my game.  But, was this equipment the right setup for my game - No.  It didn't really suit my style overall, but it was a useful exercise.

There are many ways to win a point.  It isn't just about blowing an awesome power loop past your opponent.  There's also good placement of shots to get your opponent out of position.  There's also being able to generate spin variation to deceive your opponent.  There's also being able to consistent return the ball to outlast your opponent.  It's called have a playing style.  Just using fast equipment will not help you find that winning style.

That's funny. Post of the year.  #Irony

After developing consistency and good technique, more power will come automatically too.

assiduous wrote: Yes, I have 3 because I love absolutely everything about this blade. I want to have spares. I have the OSP Virtuosso as well, and I would violently disagree that is a class above the Primorac. It is certainly prettier than the Primo, and I would really love to go to the club with the Virtuoso instead of the Primo, believe me, I would. But all 3 of my primos are better than the Virtuoso. Let me back up and say that they have identical wood construction, so they feel similar, they are medium soft and very elastic and springy. But my Virtuoso vibrates too much and is certainly not as consistent as the primos. It's like the wood or the glue inside is not homogenous and the bounce is not consitent. I made a hardbat out of it but it's too fast for hardbat so I don't know what to do now. And the W6, do not even try to compare it to Primorac or Virtuoso. It is a totally different blade, and if you want to use the expression 'a class lower' on that one, i wouldn't mind. I have the W6 for sale, hit me up if u interested. W6 is a dull, boring blade with nothing to spark any inthusiasm. Its ugly too. The handle is too thick outside and too thin at the neck. It flexes but it's slow and not as elastic and springy as the primos. Outer ply is not Limba and you don't have the great touch feel of the primos and the virtuoso. W6 is an absolute buzz-killer blade. Unpleasant and a turnoff.

the hilarity about the last part is he once called the W6 the best looping blade, period

So I would suggest if you are using a fast setup to learn have a coach or trainer who will make sure you play the proper strokes. A lot of times with fast setup people tend to let the racquet do the work.  If you are looking for a really slow blade - I would suggest Dr. Neubauer Barricade!

For example lets say you want to develop as a close to the table third ball attacker but you are using an ALL set up. Unless you are super strong your power loops are probably going to be blocked or looped back against a decent opponent. So you start to shorten your strokes and loop with less power but more placement to win the point because your equipment does not allow you to win with power. But by this point you have gone a different direction then you wanted in the first place b/c of the equipment you are using. 

I say always use the equipment that suits your level!! 

The problem with fast equipment is that often times it's very hard to figure out what you did wrong.

A lot of players end up developing a very passive stroke - because that's the only way they can keep the ball on the table.

I'd say the best is to use a medium-hard to medium sponge style rubber that is NOT a tensor.

Also stay away from carbon blades. A 5 ply all wood blade is best to learn on.

You want to develop touch and the correct technique, and the best way to do that is to use moderately slow stuff.

My friend used a LKT Instinct + IQUL on FH/BH and easily made 1600 on that setup.

He only recently changed to a much faster setup (Xiom Aria + H3 + Moon Pro) and is now 1860.

But he developed the basis of his technique using a very slow setup.

I think the truism is that you should use the fastest blade/rubber that gives you the most control.  The question, IMO, is whether to get to this combo, you are better off starting below and ramping up or starting above and ramping down.  I would argue for the former because modern rubbers are pretty fast.  Also, the defensive strokes that are part of an allround game like chopping/blocking are easier to do actively with slower setups.

In my experience, for kids, the blades will eventually become part of their bodies, so it makes little difference.  For them, hitting, even if it never becomes spinning, can be a way of life because they learned it young and do it against good players.   But for adults like myself who started spinning in old age, too many of us are enamored with speed and because we don't understand the effect spin has on a player, fast blades encourage us to go for speed and the low feedback tends to encourage hitting.  A good feedback offensive blade like the Primorac or Korbel is not a bad choice, but it is easier to learn from videos if you are using slower equipment where the effects of the stroke are more visible.  After building out that base understanding of spin, you can always get a faster blade and reduce spin for speed while still learning how to generate spin with better timing.  But the reverse direction (faster to slower) tends encourage hitting with the player rarely if ever reaching the realization that spin is important.

Rossi Emotion for life!

 

Roger that Baal.

 

I've seen some go from newb to 1600 in a couple years using a Schlager Carbon, the nighmare blade for a newb according to pundits. The equipment has very little to do with reading spin, tactics, courage, anticipation, movement, balance, recovery, knowing when and how to impact the ball and the like. Sure, it counts for a lot, but if a player is struggling with these things, the pundit approved ALL+ blade helps him little. Yeah, an OFF+ blade encourages a new player without coaching to hit "wrong", but heck, just about anyone without coaching does "wrong" stuff forever.

And the people that quote posts that are multiple-page-long, those are exactly the people who shouldn't post at all. 

Not sure what your rating is, but the way I think about TT is what I call levers of power.

1.Toes/ankles.

2. Knees.

3.Waist/abs

4. Shoulder

5. Elbow

6. Wrist

7. Fingers

Usually, when someone is looking for more power/speed in a stronger stroke, it is time to add power to looking at which of these levers is utilized, or which of the current levers being used can be made stronger by physical fitness.  (The one lever that should not be used that often is the shoulder - it is too unstable and prone to injury.  The most under utilized levers are the elbow and the wrist, though all can be underutilized depending on how a player plays.) .

For example, doing your strokes with 3 lbs weights can help you get some more power.  Using another lever with enhanced timing does help as well.  Sometimes, people lose power by brushing the ball much too lightly rather than going into it fairly open with a thick contact and a wrapping motion, especially when the ball is high.  Finally, power is not all that is needed to win - sometimes setting up the opponent by bringing them in so that even moderately fast shots are harder to defend/counterloop off the table is one strategy that doesn't require that much power.

Everybody keeps hangin the straw man over and over. 

The fact that fast equipment has worse control is taken for granted when this is actually the real point of argument.

Instead everybody and their cousin stood in line to tell me that fast equipment is bad for you because it is more difficult to use (because it has worse control). You know what I wonder? Do u even have the intelligence to hand the straw man consciously, or you just don'w know whats really going on.

Don't worry - I will come to Chicago next year and teach you how to use your equipment (so you can stop making the remarks that come from the first three letters of your handle).

Aaah... i know what he's doing, he's just messing with me, am I right? : ) 

Haha, Bulgarian white haired boy.  Just know that being smart and nosy has nothing to do with how well you play TT.  At least, I put myself out there so people could see how I play.  Making noise because your broke 1700 once is pathetic.

No, he's not.  I've actually seen Leshxa use those blades he is talking about at my club.  He used the Yasaka Sweeper and then went to the Waldner All Play when he didn't like the Yasaka sweeper durability.  But he is a full bodied looper - I am not as physical with my game.  Leshxa has beaten 2000+ players with those slow blades.

I was trying to get at the timing portion with my point about opening the racket more vs brushing the ball, but you are right - TIMING is the most important thing in the stroke and should be identified by name it for what it is.  Taking the ball later after it has lost power is good on some strokes, but hitting harder with a slower blade can be done by taking the ball earlier.

In fact, the point that I have been trying to make is that the timing required to use fast rackets is too precise for most beginners to get right.  But once they understand it with a slower blade, I do not think it is that hard to transfer it to a faster blade.  But I might be wrong about that.

Oh yeah. I can't imagine playing with ALL+. Gotta go OFF++++.

Faster = better.

Heavier = better.

$400+ = 

But I won't guarantee result 

Thanks for the correction - I think Sweeper got confused with Sweden as I went through a Defensive Blade search once myself (our coach actually convinced me to get back to OFF blades - I love the Rossi Emotion now, though I miss my tennis racket sometimes).

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with this.  While a coach does help,  I believe there are distinct feelings that one should get when a ball contacts the blade that can help with timing the stroke.  I have found those feelings much harder to discern when using low feedback carbon blades, and much easier to discern when using wooden blades.  That is why I am for slower setups because they let you understand the feeling of what happens, and then you can find it in faster blades where it is more subtle but still there.  If you start with faster blades, you may never even realize there is something to be found.

Have fun everyone.  Good night!  

This.

 

One thing I would like to add following on from DDreamer is that I have found that it is often overlooked by developing players that they have to control incoming topspin pro-actively to progress, and any set up that makes them more re-active ( blocking) without choice ( because they miss more if they re-loop/hit ) will make them play jittery and nervous under pressure. I have one of the slowest blades in my club, but still have the most powerful consistent drives because I swing confidently. Slow Blade plus quick rubbers gives you control and pace when you need it, fast blades give you less control and quicker tempo, if you are not at the level that can play comfortably in the latter, or are rapidly getting there, its a bad idea.

 

But you use soft rubbers too, which according to our fast blade and hard rubber guru, is a big NO-NO, so what do you know...

 

Depends on what you mean by comfortable... but I hope you have read enough posters here to see that being able to play well with fast equipment doesn't mean that you are comfortable with it or that you should use it or even that you play best with it.

This is post above is a paraphrase of all of the posts in this thread. Everybody just assumes that fast blades have less control and all the arguing and arguments presented are really about whether we should use blades with good control or blades with bad control. And everyone is saying - newbies should use blades with good control! Well I have news for you: I AGREE WITH THAT! Newbies do need to use blades with good control! 

The disagreement is about which blades have good control! And the fact is that modern composite blades have FAR SUPERIOR CONTROL EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE FASTER AT THE SAME TIME. There is no way, no how, any of those ALL blades mentioned above have better CONTROL than a TBS or IF ZLC. I don't care if you measure with some kind of machine test the accuracy of the blades of do an independent subjective test from good players. I mean ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE! These two guide blocks like laser and the loops are like satellite-guided missiles. 

It is sad that everybody here either lacks the intelligence to see the real point or purposefully hangs the straw man to propagate this nonsense.