I wanted to do my own comparison of the BTY high end blades. Its been an unnecessarily long journey (thanks frogger and bluebucket for sending me the wrong way) from slow, soft and flexy to fast, stiff and hard.

 The first blade I stuck with was Primorac. Four of them, sold all here. I want to apologize to everyone who has read my recommendation of that blade. I was sincere and did not know any better. If you have ANY AMBITION in this sport, pass on this blade. Strong vibration and very slow recovery that results with heavy loss of control on power shots. 

Then I got a Korbel from a dude in Israel. Soft, but a little stiffer at the neck. Better control on power shots. I thought that was good enough until I tried other stuff.

Got a Clipper wood from another member and an IF ALC from japan. The blades were in opposite directions in terms of control. My Clipper was faster but very difficult for me to control, super frikkin bouncy but not in a good way. IF ALC was a new experience for me. It immediately straightened the flight path in looping. It was totally different from all wood limba blades before, incomparable in control.

 However I still had weak shots, overly brushing everything, no real power. And IF ALC is seriously stiff. It is softish, but will not flex at the neck. That made brushing difficult for me, and I did not like the feel of it, and did not stop on it for too long, despite the great control.

Next I got a TBS from a friend and a IF ZLC from Japan. TBS was even further in the direction of IF ALC --> even better control, but on top of the stiffness, that one was hard as well. Could not do my bad brushy shots with it and did not use it much. The IF ZLC felt weird. It will flex but will not vibrate like a wood blade. Zylon makes for very fast recovery. Brushing was still kind of hard, but I had incredible victories int he very first week so I decided to stick with it. Little by little the blade forced me to open my paddle and go through the ball more. I started converting bigger and bigger % of my power to speed vs spin. You have to. However learning more direct shots opened another can of worms. I started liking my TBS and IF ALC more and more. The stiffness did not bother me that much any more, and they both had better control than the IF ZLC on power shots.

One day I borrowed my friends TB ZLC at the club and won 19 consecutive points right off the start (11:0 and 8:0 in second before I lost a point). Found it HARD and STIFF. And AWESOME. Thats what she said. Same night I ordered one from TT-Japan and bought a second from a member.

When I got the first TB ZLC, i got shocked by how uncomfortable the ST handle is and cancelled the one from japan. However for first time in my journey I was sure I am ready to divorce with my beloved LIMBA. I was swearing by limba until then. Limba limba limba, didn't even look at anything else. Hinoki bouncy, koto hard. Limba good, me like.

 But not any more. Decided to jump for the ZJK SZLC, just because i didn't know any other koto ZLC blade. Was sure the feel would be the same. No it was not, it was soft. Almost like hinoki. I do not understand the physics behind it, but there is a major difference with TB ZLC. However just as stiff, perhaps a little stiffer, so power loops are the real lazer. I know I said that for IF ZLC back in the day, and compared to Korbel, IF ZLC is a laser, but it is too flexy to be a power blade. IF ZLC is a control and finesse blade.

Along the way I got a IF T5000, well after I had decided i don't want any more limba, but I had played with all other IF family blades, so i wanted to get the full picture. Its very nice. I would hate it back in the day, but if I have to pick one today, that would be my choice. Very stiff, and easily the fastest in the series, not any slower I think that the ZJK SZLC and TB ZLC. Looping is actually quite easy because of the super soft feel of the blade. T 5000 is the softest feel in the family. Perhaps thats an illusion. But its really soft despite being stiff. 

Well that was more of a story than comparison, but will do some strict comparison in the next few posts.

Here is how I think people should make their choice. 

If you are ambitious and trust you can improve on your own or yet better take lessons, don't go for LIMBA blades. If you are good already, dont go for limba blades, and consequently pass on ANY Innerfoce blade. That also presides on the assumption that you have open paddle strokes, but good players have already figured that brushing and messing with spin is not gona take u far against good opps. You can only add spin ON TOP of the speed, like Zhang The Jike! If you are in this paragraph, go for TBS or TB ALC if you prefer a little slower with maximum control on this planet earth. TBS feels a little better because its thinner, but they basically the same. If you need the extra zing to penetrate stubborn defense but still keep control as much as possible, got from KOTO ALC to KOTO ZLC. TB and ZJK ZLC(s) are faster. However Zylon is flexier than arylate, and control is a hair lower, just a hair. And if your game absolutely relies on power go for ZLC HINOKI. Koto will hold you back from the very top of the speed range. However you will suffer another hair or two down in control.

The following sequence of Innerforce blades is from the easiest for brushing to the highest in control. To me ease in brushing is directly and inversely correlated with control. You need SOFT and/or FLEXY for brushing, and both of those properties WILL COST YOU CONTROL. Keep in mind that all of these blades are limba, so they are relatively soft already, even the hardest. 

brushing: IF ZLF --> IF ZLC -- > IF AL --> IF ALC --> IF T5000 --> IF ULC : control.

Still, all of these will have better control than ANY wood limba blade. Primorac, Korbel, Clipper, Maximus, K5 and the other all limba blades are just not as stable as their composite heirs. 

I'm not agreeing with all the conclusions but I'm enjoying the read. And I certainly appreciate your sincerity... I need to throw in the towel on quoting you in reference to the W-6 and other blades. I'd say that horse is dead. Btw it seems like maybe you're up late smoking the good stuff tonight.

puppy412,

that's hilarious

These two blades are very different, if you like the feel of one, you will not like the feel of the other. 

Maybe I should get custom blade from Butterfly if they are ready to make a blade with different construction on each side. 

I yelled so hard after the last point that even my boy ZJK would crack a smile and give me a nod. Once before I was up 2:1 and 10:7 in game 4 and lost 5 match points and then the whole match. He tried to pull of the exact same scenario again but came a lil short and I took a 3:1 win. 

I am telling you, everybody has been coming to examine my paddle last week. I haven't gotten a comment from my opponents like ' wow so spiny', or 'so fast!', but people are surprised that I keep coming after a couple of good blocks. I have one of the best opening loops in the club at any rating, but my consistency immediately drops after that. Good players are used to just blocking me to corners and waiting for me to fade away and lose it. 

This Szlc really has fantastic control. I just wish it had a better feel. I still cant get used to it. Very stiff and yet soft. Its like im playing with styrofoam 

Probably, the best of two worlds (the brushing opening loop and powerloop) will be : Hinoki + composite ( for example : Xiom Zetro Quad,Joola Rosskopf Emotion) .Your opinion ? Thanks.

Interesting. And when you initially described the SZLC (soft, hollow, good dwell for opening loop, stiff and powerful from mid-distance & you don't like the feel of the blade) I thought that that description would probably fit a Photino (another hinoki composite)...

ZJK-ALC is definitely like Viscaria instead of like the TB-ALC. It seems to have bouncy, vibrating balsa as it's core instead of the steady kiri of the TB-ALC. Additionally, because of it's larger handle, most strokes with ZJK-ALC are faster than they are with the Viscaria.

But as always: performance of ALC blades is very piece & weight dependent - I'd always recommend choosing a heavier weight in this ALC family as opposed to a lighter one.

Viscaria with a balsa core is an urban legend which started from a mistake of butterflyonline...

I'll assume you're right (you've probably played with more ALC blades than I have & your 'For Sale' blade list would put any EJ to shame while simultaneously making him feel good for not being the worst offender around ). BTW: any (translated) quote from a BTY japanese website confirming this (though I assume that they are quiet on wood composition of their blades)?

That's what I think when I look at the core of TB-ALC vs Viscaria. However, my 2 TB-ALCs & prior TBS feel a bit absorptive, no vibrations and no flex. My 2 Viscarias & the ZJK-ALC feel and sound different - they have some vibration, some flex and seem more bouncy. And they have a slightly more high-pitched sound.

Perhaps, it is co-incidently piece-dependent...

Which blade are you settling on, ZJK-SZLC or TB-ZLC?

I am not settled yet, but eventually will sell one of them and buy a second of the other, so I use the same blade at work and at the club. 

I'll be curious to see what you settle on. Btw, remind me if you've tried Maze

But I still don't understand why you talk about hinoki when you talk about the S-ZLC. It has no hinoki in its composition. 

I never got a mizutani because the carbon is outside by the fist layer. I thought thats a recipe for blocking, and not looping. Now I am selling all my limba stuff anyway, so i guess its too late.

Interesting journey,I have never been in a modern day blade manufacturing operation in Japan but expect that it is world class and produces the best possible commercial grade available not taking anything away from Chinese manufacturing but Japan has always been very strong in its manufacturing know how.  The issue of different wood and composite blades makes for many creative possibilities but I was thinking about baseball and how at the professional level they still use wood bats but lower level play are allowed to use metal as it gives the less gifted or young players a chance to hit the ball further.   

+1 on the Maze

assiduous wrote: Here is how I think people should make their choice.  If you are ambitious and trust you can improve on your own or yet better take lessons, don't go for LIMBA blades. If you are good already, dont go for limba blades ...

assiduous wrote:  There is really no reason to go with a wood limba blade if you can afford a composite, none. Even price is not an excuse. brushing: IF ZLF --> IF ZLC -- > IF AL --> IF ALC --> IF T5000 --> IF ULC : control. Still, all of these will have better control than ANY wood limba blade. Primorac, Korbel, Clipper, Maximus, K5 and the other all limba blades are just not as stable as their composite heirs.

I've read some nonsense on this forum over the years, but this is right up there with the most ill-informed. I realise that you are passionate about your EJ quest through the various Butterfly composite blades, however to dismiss Limba as a blade material in the way that you do just defies all logic and common sense, not to mention the accumulated experience of very many strong players over the years and still active today. I can think of one player straight off the top of my head who was World 30-50 for many years and played with nothing but a Primorac. Having trained in Hungary with top Austrian, German and Hungarian players I can assure you that many play with all wood blades, or at most a TBS or TB ALC, for a very good reason. And that is without touch and control over the table you won't get near hitting bombs from far back once you a playing against a higher level of player.

I'm glad you are so enthusiastic about the game, love your S-ZLC (although I'm not clear that this is still your blade) and that you managed to beat a 1900 player. But seriously, no piece of equipment beats hard training and the development of "good hands". All the best.

Limba blades have the best feel out there and its not surprising they have so many fans. I can totally understand that because i remember how I felt. Limba also makes spinning the ball very easy due to the great dwell time. 

But if you compare the Timo Boll family of blades with the Innerforce family, and go apples to apples - 5 ply wood, ALC, ZLC, etc..  The Timo Boll blade of the same kind will ALWAYS have better control than the Innerforce blade. It will always be STIFFER and HARDER. 

Why is this so hard for people to embrace? 

The ball is propelled with a blade whose surface deforms from the contact, and additionally the entire structure flexes at the neck. It is physically a must that the deformation and flex will affect the bounce. That same deformation and flex is significantly less in koto blades and a higher control must follow from that.

So excuse me if I sound disrespectful to all of your first hand experience with people who use all wood limba blades, but I don't care very much about it. I really don't. If we are goina point fingers to who is using what, i can assure you that KOTO + Synthetic layer blades dominate the table tennis world, and certainly kill limba all-woods success, so i don't think you should be going there at all. 

Soft flexy blades have the nice property of assisting you is slow, brushy shots, because the deformation + the flex result in increased dwell time. Also, in those flickity shots like ZJK serve return the goal is usually just to clear the net. Accuracy is really not a concern, and for that reason people confuse it with the ease of doing that shot. But the accuracy is lower just the same. If you could repeatedly do this shot with a Timo Boll blade, you would get more consistent landing locations. Although, like I said, people don't aim at particular location as that much.

See, long distance is a MAGNIFYING GLASS for control issues. Say a TB family blade has a 1 degree variance in direction in drilling the same shot over and over. And the IF family blade of the same kind has 3 degrees of variance. When you do a ZJK return, because the entire travel is 3 feet, the balls land a fraction of an inch apart. And nobody cares. But if you are 15 feet from the table and you are doing practice drills, now this 3 degrees variance in direction angle results in the ball landing a couple of feet left or right, which is the difference between you just landing it on the table, and missing the table  altogether.

"Control", however, is much more subjective.  The easiest way to differentiate between the two would be to think of using a piece of steel as your outer ply on a stationary paddle.  All things being equal, the steel outer would certainly ensure that every ball that hit the paddle would rebound in almost exactly the same manner and direction and would have a lower dispersion than any wood outer ply.  Controlling the steel blade would obviously be an entirely different story. 

I'll go on record by adding that at the skill level of 99% of the players in this forum, though, it will not make a hill of beans difference and personal feel should weigh out in blade selection.   

you sound like Clinton when they asked him if he slept with that woman. But all you mean is that you are willing to sacrifice control for spin. But when you say 'that's good control for me' you actually mean that's a good blade for you. And if you put it this way, nobody can argue with you. Many people like paddles that will generate extra spin at the expense of control. But all of this cannot touch the simple fact that control is what control is, and not what you make it to be. We have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise no statement will have any meaning, even outside the table tennis world. You can't erase the real meaning of something with the line 'Well. for me that something is..'

Sorry if I sound arrogant, i know you are a good dude. This may sound loud as you read it, but I am almost falling asleep. But I can't let you destroy something so elementary and obvious by throwing it under the subjective bus.

Would the end result of your journey necessitate using the absolute stiffest/densest blade in existence?

First, you recognize that hard wood will be more consistent in sending the ball to the same location, but you don't want to call this control, rather call it something else.

And second, extrapolating the rule to the extreme, to demonstrate its invalidity. You sound like a lawyer sir. 

However I am not sure a steel blade will be hard to control, in the way I described it. It will be heavy as hell, and will have incredibly low dwell time, and hence low ability to generate spin.

But I don't think this extreme situation means the blade has no control. Exactly the opposite. This demonstrates that people are willing to sacrifice a little control but instead of 400 gram, have a paddle that weighs only 80 gr. and has a second benefit of greater dwell time. Not talking about the official rules for the paddle. This seems like an easy trade off.. you gain great weight reduction and increase in spin, for (say) just 1 degree worse variance.

And remember, the only reason people put synthetic layers in the paddles right now is to increase control. It will always make the blade feel worse and not as spiny, but some people prefer the extra control.

i am arguing what control means. I am not saying you have to sacrifice everything for meaningless gains in control. If you designed a machine that can test blades for control by holding them steady or imitating human grip, and shoot high velocity balls at it and measure the standard error in the landing locations, i expect that after making a sufficiently sturdy blade with two layers of synthetic material you will already have good enough control, and further stiffness will only detriment other properties of the blade. Even I like a little dwell time and good touch and will make the tradeoff at some point against control. 

But I don't want to make it seem i am trying to avoid your question. Just want to clarify it. If my goal was to have the blade with the highest control and didn't care about anything else, then yes, i would go for what you are suggesting.

while for most players, the definition of control = playability

a moment of meditation or a subtle insult?

I see. I was trying to give the benefit of a doubt.

Anywho, I've listened to Brian Pace discuss the control properties of a blade. Even Fan Zhendong has spoken about why he chose all wood over composite.

moving on...

If control is defined by your personal preferences, it would be a really worthless term, wouldn't it? Like all definitions that were given here are completely worthless in getting information about a blade. I don't know what you like and what you think control is. If I am wrong, and control is something subjective, we might as well stop talking about control altogether. 

I think this whole discussion was a waste of time. Before this discussion started, everybody here knew what control is. And I actually thing everyone's opinion was almost the same. 

Now that we start putting definitions people are not sure any more.

Reminds me of this episode of Family Guy when that guy wanted to hide under the bedsheets with Peter because he was afraid of ghosts. And Peter told him - don't be ridiculous, ghosts don't exist! And the guys said - Are you sure? And Peter thinks and then moans - Well.. now I'm not!

You can keep control posts where they were referring to these blades, at least before this whole argument about control started.

So excuse me if I sound disrespectful to all of your first hand experience with people who use all wood limba blades, but I don't care very much about it. I really don't. If we are goina point fingers to who is using what, i can assure you that KOTO + Synthetic layer blades dominate the table tennis world, and certainly kill limba all-woods success, so i don't think you should be going there at all.

assiduous' next 9 posts after that also dealt with the subject of control, berating a substantial number of posters.  If you bring it up, it is fair game.

But..... it is always possible to redirect the thread by talking more about your new S-ZLC or whatever you are using now.

Can some other admin look into this request please? 

I stuck with the S-zlc because of some good results at the club, but every time I touch the TB ZLC i feel such pleasure, I decided not to fight it any more. This SUPER DUPER ZLC... they say it has nice feel.. yeah, its soft and still super control from afar, but i don't like soft any more.

By the way, i think I am selling mine at a fair price. One forum member made an offer of 160 pounds to a seller and the seller got insulted. I am selling mine for less than that : )

Try regular Rhyzm or regular Tenzone for your FH. You will immediately feel improvement.

TB ZLC is a hard stiff blade designed for good strokes going through the ball. It is not good for brushing and messing around with whirly spin. And M2 is the exact opposite - not good for direct strokes, but good for brushing and messing around with spin. You have to make your mind and take the right path : )

funny..

some blades do feel spongy! They are fun to mess around with, lots of dwell, easy brush.. But if you turn up the pace then spongy holds you back. I am just not sure TB ALC is spongy. Nothing with koto is that spongy..  Perhaps compared to TB ZLC.. TB ZLC is hard like glass but more flexy..

Have you even touched a TB ZLC? There is this blind hatred to this blade, mostly because its expensive, and mostly from people who have never touched it. You should give it a try man. Borrow from a friend. You don't know what you are gona find out. 

But don't try to be too smart man.. may end up in uncomfortable situation.. you can tell us what you think straight up.

I'd rate DDreamer's trolling at a 1700 level...

you rite ..  : ) .. kind of mediocre : )

He is as potent as an ALL+ blade..

looking back at this, I'd say slevin nailed it

+1