Thomas Keinath on plastic balls
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Topic: Thomas Keinath on plastic balls
Posted By: Mastermind
Subject: Thomas Keinath on plastic balls
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 7:38pm
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Thomas Keinath (world rank 111) on Tibhar plastic balls (in German): "Wir haben dort mit Tibhar Bällen trainiert. Die Qualität der Bällen schwangt jedoch noch etwas. In jedem Training sind ca 15 bis 20 Bälle kaputt gegangen. Aber in Zukunft werden die Bälle sicher besser werden. Für jeden Spieler ist es eine große Umstellung. Man trifft oft die Kante und haut beim Gegen Top Spin die Bälle vorbei. Ich habe das Gefühl, dass der Ball beim Aufschlag und Rückschlag mehr in der Luft stehen bleibt. Die Bälle springen bei den Aufschlägen nicht mehr so weit und die Bälle springen flacher ab. Das Spiel entscheidet sich mehr über Aufschlag und Rückschlag. Im offenen Spiel ist der Ball sehr schwer zu kontrollieren. Der Block geht oft ins Netz oder auch ins aus. Man muss mehr nach vorne spielen wenn man den Ball liegen hat. Fast jeder Spieler ist am rumprobieren mit neuen Hölzer und härteren und weicheren Belägen. Alles ist noch sehr ungewiss im Moment. Die Beläge spielen sich schneller ab durch den Plastik Ball." http://forum.tt-news.de//showpost.php?p=2557636&postcount=980 I do not have time to translate it at the moment, but my short summary would be "both durability and playing properties are total crap". |
Replies:
Posted By: kolevtt
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 8:15pm
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Thanks for sharing. As I wrote in the review of these TIBHAR balls early, only one more stronger shoot is enough to break a ball. "Total crap" is very non-diplomatic said, please forgive him  Many people asked me: Are you sure the balls are hard to play with ? I answered always YES, many things will be changed for the professional players. Later someone shared impressions from Brazilian team they are happy with these balls, but I am far from this thought. May be it was joke. The truth about these balls is that someone much more non-skilled player is able to destroy you, no matter of the difference in skills. It is because the more advanced players can't use all their power in strokes first, second the speed of the ball and third - there is no spin... Different and lower trajectory of the ball is also problem, because you can't "change your body settings", built so long time during the trainings with the old ball. Every muscle in your body has specific memory. That memory is responsible for using your specific muscle power. Here with the new balls the advance is in the drive-shots, which is out of any logic according the development of table tennis. When a person hear TABLE TENNIS - the first connection comes with SPIN/TOPSPIN. But now the things are different. Here I will push my bid on SPEED in the next year. |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 8:21pm
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"We have trained there with Tibhar balls. However, the quality of the balls schwangt something else. In each training ca have gone 15 to 20 balls broken., But in the future the balls are sure to get better. For each player there is a big change. One often meets the edge and the skin at the counter top spin balls over. I have a feeling that the ball remains more on impact and setback in the air. The balls jump to the surcharges no longer so far and the balls jump from flat. The game chooses more about surcharge and kickback. In open play the ball is very difficult to control. The block often goes from the net or the. You have to play up front if you are the ball more. Almost every player is on trial and error with new timbers and harder and softer surfaces. Everything is still very uncertain at the moment. The linings are happening faster through the plastic ball " This is google translates attempt - still not sure what it means in English, however. But... "In the future the balls are sure to get better" suggests to me that Keinath remains open rather than just "total crap". Also he is commenting only on Tibhar balls and not all plastic balls. My summary would be "Everything is still very uncertain at the moment." But "total crap" will sell more newspapers. 
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 11:08pm
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Tassie52, If you are familiar with the writings of our resident Mastermind, you could hardly be surprised by his summation. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 8:42am
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NextLevel wrote:Posted By: Butt Stallion
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 10:17am
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what Keinath wrote: - he tested the new poly balls of tibhar - the quality isnt stable yet - its huge different to play with the new ball, the ball in general creates flatter curves (so less spin) and its in general harder to control while rallies and blocking (open game) - serve and return is getting more important - rubbers are loosing their grip faster compared to the old ball |
Posted By: Reinecke
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 10:34am
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hardbat is looking more and more appealing... ------------- Mizutani Jun ST Tenergy 64 Tenergy 64 
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 10:36am
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I wonder why the rubber declines faster with the new balls? These balls aren't enough heavier for that to seem to be the reason. |
Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 11:10am
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ITTF requested the new balls be more abrasive on the surface. Probably to improve grip with the rubbers (important vs long pips) and create more air resistance and slow speed / spin. I myself noticed much stronger grip. The rubbers will wear faster, but even with worn rubber, i mean pretty slippery rubber, the new balls are so grippy that you can loop with confidence anyway. ------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 11:35am
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A link to an interesting study on racket coverings a bit technical but worth the time. The effect noted with 40+ ball is probably due to the slower spin/speed of the new ball and the players reaction to this over the course of the game, that is they get more fatigued trying to generate greater spin/speed or rally ending shots blaming the rubber for failing to generate the necessary spin/speed they want. thats my 2 cents but here is the study link: http://www.ittf.com/ittf_science/SSCenter/docs/199408014%20-%20%20Tiefenbacher%20-%20Impact.pdf
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 12:06pm
Yes, this explanation makes sense. Definitely noticeable when you hold them in your hand with a celluloid one. This probably affects they way they bounce off the table when they are spinning, even if they bounce less in a simple drop test. (edit added, also the way they fly in the air). Definitely, these balls play differently, and there may be a lot that goes into it. Lineup makes a good point too. My initial impression after a night using these things was that I was really tired. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 12:09pm
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Even from the Google translation one can easily conclude that the balls in question are real crap: "In each training ca have gone 15 to 20
balls broken", "One often meets the edge and the
skin at the counter top spin", "In open play the ball is very
difficult to control", "Almost every player
is on trial and error with new timbers and harder and softer surfaces". He also said that blocking was often unpredictable and the rallies would be decided mostly over service and return. The last sentence is about almost everyone buying and testing new blades and rubbers. This is IMO the purpose of the whole plastic ball scam. It is interesting to see, how some commentators ignore or downplay essential points. P.S. It was not just testing, it was in real training with the German national team. Sorry, I left that part out: "Ich habe mich letzte Woche mit der Deutschen Nationalmannschaft in Düsseldorf auf die neue Runde vorbereitet. Das war auch meine erste Erfahrung mit den neuen Bällen. Wir haben dort mit Tibhar Bällen trainiert." |
Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 12:13pm
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Kolevtt grasped the gist of it all. He is very right about less skilled players beating better ones owing to the spin unfriendly behaviour of the ball. I myself conducted a little test last Friday with players who are lower ranked and technically not so adept. One of them was a hobby player who restarted the sport after a 20 year break - he said he could not feel any differences between the DHS plastic ball and the Joola *** celluloid. Then I went on to test with a player who cannot loop with his forehand and uses ox long pips on his backhand, he just slaps the ball when it pops up without really knowing how it spins. He also commented that he does not feel that much of a difference. After that there was a 14 year old kid who has been playing for 2 years and he strives to make proper attacking strokes, he has not got stuck at the level of pushing. It is only his strokes are not solid but no one can expect more after 2 years. He loops rather well with the celluloid ball but he was disgusted by the DHS plastic ball and he missed almost every second loop. I feel that some forum members are too optimistic about the plastic balls currently on the market. I would bet that the ITTF sanctioned tournaments will not get the same crappy ball as the average player does. Based on the little info on the Nittaku Premium plastic ball, that could be something usable but have a look at the price of the plain Chinese produced SHA ball, it is 5.40 EUR / 3 pcs + shipping at tabletennis11. How much will the premium cost? I have a hunch that it will be about double. You can argue that the prices will drop as the market gets saturated with the new plastic balls but in the case of the Nittaku Premium, I cannot see that going below even 5 EUR for a long time from now, which is quite a lot for three balls. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 12:21pm
Especially bearing in mind that we don't know anything about what the durability of the Nittaku Premium balls will turn out to be. My fear is that that problem is inherent in the material. I hope I am wrong. As for outcomes of matches, I think it will take a bit more time to see if what Kolev says will turn out. It may put a premium on a somewhat different skill set, but from what I have seen playing with them there will still be many ways for skilled players to show their superiority. One thing I noticed about the Joola version is that I was punished more for footwork errors. |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 6:02pm
I remember when we first switched to 40mm balls, the Chinese versions were really bad. It took them a while to improve their products. Nowadays 40mm 3-star DHS celluloid balls cost about 1/3 of Nittaku premiums, and perform just as good in the first three hours of use (I don't like any of the current 40mm balls after three hours of use anyway, even though Nittakus hold up a bit better). So I think cheap Chinese 2-piece poly balls will improve their quality substantially after a few months of mass production. ------------- Current USATT Rating: 2181 Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 6:13pm
Right, 3 years since 2011 have not been enough to get a reasonable quality, but a few more months will lead to a success. Very logical.  |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 6:20pm
You are forgetting that a few more months will be added to the 3 years already spent. The key here is to simply source better raw materials as the ball production method is the same between made-in-Japan Nittakus and cheap Chinese balls. ------------- Current USATT Rating: 2181 Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 6:31pm
Right, that's why I wrote "3 more months". |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 6:39pm
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Well, a few points. We don't know if Japanese Nittaku balls will have durability problems. They might. We don't know if they use the same production techniques or if their improved play is a result of their using better source materials. One possibility is that the increase in size is what causes the durability problem, in which case as long as ITTF insists on that, we will have these issues, no matter who makes the balls. It would be more accurate would be to say that I don't know the answer to those questions. If someone else around here actually knows (as opposed to suspects or feels the answers) please let us know, but it is likely that these are industrial secrets. If you claim to have the answer because you use The Force, I will remain skeptical. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 6:41pm
I see. You should have told them what the key is 3 years ago, then they would have found the right raw material already, instead of using the wrong one. But now let's just hope they read this thread. Of course, some people like me would think that the crappy quality of plastic balls is garantied, given the decades of plastic ball history and it's repeated failures in the past and in the present, but not you. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 6:48pm
This is a really good guess, Baal.  That's why some ITTF people have made a change to the technical leaflet T3 concerning the ball weight recently, allowing (illegally) heavier balls, but the change is only temporary. The clever trick is that after 01.01.2016 lighter plastic balls will return automatically:
http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/T3_Ball_forBoD2014_final.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/T3_Ball_forBoD2014_final.pdf |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 7:02pm
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PEOPLE, BE ALERT !!!! The Mollycoddles will always decry plastic ball.  The game has changed, and the blocking folk are the kings from now on... LOOPERS, STOP YOUR KIDDY WHINE. Go, and have a massive physical driills. Table Tennis is an athletic sport,, featuring muscular power first, All the fibble-legged MOLLIES are strongly welcomed to play some sedentary tiddlewink, darts and kibergame... Please, take your departure FROM TABLE TENNIS !!!!! I am all happy about plastic, I am a chronical blocker. It is my primetime now. VIVA ADHAM SHARARA  VIVA DHS BALL MAKERS !!!!!! |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 7:20pm
Unlike seamless balls, the new 2-pc balls are still made of cellulose sheets, just not in as flammable form as celluloid, which btw is also a form of synthetic plastic. The current ball manufacturers simply replace celluloid sheets with non-inflammable sheets still made of cellulose. Unlike making seamless balls, the manufacturing process for these 2-piece "poly" balls is still the same as old celluloid balls. So, better raw materials will make better 2-piece balls. But you could be right...perhaps no existing raw materials can overcome durability issues due to increase in size demanded by ITTF. ------------- Current USATT Rating: 2181 Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 7:31pm
Your post doesn't make sense. If you need to be a lot more athletic to play a looping game with the plastic ball, why do you still want to block like a sissy? Get on with the program and start hitting those weights... ------------- Current USATT Rating: 2181 Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 7:35pm
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 7:46pm
Maybe why the initial 40+P are allowed to be made heavier ? ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 10:26pm
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By the way, Adham Sharara's original plan was to completely replace celluloid balls with 1-piece plastic balls. Alas, it didn't quite work out for him. He did not expect current celluloid ball maker's decision to keep making 2-piece balls, but with a similar but safer type of cellulose material (anyone still wonder why all the new 2-pc. "poly" balls play just like larger celluloid balls?). In the end, we are simply getting a larger 2-piece ball still made of cellulose at 3 times the price of current celluloid balls. ------------- Current USATT Rating: 2181 Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 11:24pm
All this machismo and manly talk of muscle power..... from a blocker?  My experience is that my loops are easier to block by it is easy to loop because there is plenty of time and there are lots of opportunities to hit. Offensive oriented table tennis is not going to disappear and Kenta Matsudaira is going to continue to lose to CNT players 95% of the time. There must be some strange chemicals in the vodka Igor is drinking. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 11:30pm
Yes. Cellulose acetate vs cellulose nitrate. Probably shouldn't make that much difference, but in fact they are not identical and the anion is part of the structure of the plastic, so can't rule it out entirely. |
Posted By: garwor
Date Posted: 07/30/2014 at 4:47am
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It's all about money. Industry wants more money, and Sharara is their man. Now they will sell us similar small piece of plastic but at much higher price. You have to protest. If not, you don't have right to complain later. Don't behave like sheeps. Say laud we dont want changes. Maybe there's other side of story. European style shot is going more through the ball than chinese one, so this new ball could affect chinese brush loop players more. But it's poor way to achieve equality in tt, instead they could simply force chinese to play with 1kg weight on every leg, like in WTCC championship (where dominant cars like Citroen have additional weight added). ------------- http://stonitenis.rs/equipmentreviews" rel="nofollow - Equipment database Yinhe MC-2 FL fh: Xiom Vega pro bh: Xiom Vega pro Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services! |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/30/2014 at 8:03am
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If they are trying to reduce Chinese dominance, this is insane. All rule changes favor the Chinese. It doesn't matter what they are. |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 07/30/2014 at 8:21am
I think that is true, because all changes favor the ones who adapt rather than the ones who complain
. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/30/2014 at 9:35am
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Also, the Chinese have already had teams of PhDs working on how they will adapt to these balls, and they have a deep pool of talent so will also find the best players to meet the new demands. All this in addition to what mhnh007 wrote. |
Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 07/30/2014 at 10:09am
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I'm not surprised he & Patrick Baum broke some balls in training:
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Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/30/2014 at 11:22am
It appeared in open play when he took the ball over the table off the bounce he had decent control but when he looped further back from the table he was swinging very hard and still had difficulty generating enough top spin to hit the table. I can't imagine that players will be able to put that much energy into their strokes and be able to play for extended periods.
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Posted By: garwor
Date Posted: 07/31/2014 at 6:03am
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Chinese players will adapt of course, but there is chance they will achieve this by switching to non-hard- tacky rubbers on fh side, to have better hit-through game. Imagine how much more money this will bring to butterfly and other hungry companies... china has really lot of registered players. Potential financial gain is worth risking of destroying the game. ------------- http://stonitenis.rs/equipmentreviews" rel="nofollow - Equipment database Yinhe MC-2 FL fh: Xiom Vega pro bh: Xiom Vega pro Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services! |
Posted By: Butt Stallion
Date Posted: 07/31/2014 at 8:34am
| they are never going to switch to non tacky rubbers. its even more possible they are switching to both sides tacky rubbers because there is going to be less spin in the new ball... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/31/2014 at 10:52am
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It is really hard to predict what equipment changes will work best with these new balls. You actually have to try a few things just to see. I have no doubt that CNT already have a solution well in hand. I for one doubt they would give up the classic tacky forehand topsheet but I could see how they might go for faster sponge. It seems to me that the issues are: 1 You are going to need to find a way to generate more spin 2 You also need to compensate a bit for the slower speed of the ball through the air 3 Whatever solutions you come up with to deal with problem 2 risk eliminating too much arc on the ball which could be bad. 4 You don't want to change feel of the setup too radically either. So how do you manage this? Faster blades? Grippier topsheets? Faster sponge? Change in pip structure of topsheet? Better boosters? Only way to know is to try some of these things. |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/31/2014 at 12:19pm
Natural for players use to a spin dominated game trying to create the same spin/speed with different equipment, I am sure manufactures will provide some relief for a PRICE! One group to watch in this transition is the U12 player who has had private coaching, endless summer camps and developed a solid looping game by 9 years old, how will they react to this change and will they wish to continue with a new playing style. I play some of these kids and they get frustrated fast and can lose interest if its doesn't go there way. Lots of smaller players U12 in various clubs but the drop out rate looks high as they move into middle and High school. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/31/2014 at 12:24pm
The lack of spin frustrates me... and I am not U12 player... ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/31/2014 at 12:46pm
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Xiom is already introducing products that they claim "are designed for plastic balls". But with the wide range of products already available, this may be unnecessary and just a marketing scam, certainly for blades. As for kids getting frustrated, they will be quickest to adapt. The gloom and doom forgets that we have been through this before. (I am not defending this change by saying this). Loopers are not about to go extinct! |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 07/31/2014 at 1:28pm
Agreed, topspin won over the backspin oriented game long ago and it wasn't solely due to equipment. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:17pm
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the new Plastic balls suck! I played a while with another 2200+ player with the new Joola plastic ball and neither one of us liked them. The spin was considerably less and the speed as well. I think the main reason the ITTF is looking at changing to the new plastic ball is money $$$. There will be a big change in the game if we really do switch to this new ball. I give them a big thumbs down.. ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:40pm
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I have to say, the more I play with the Joola 40+ the less I like them. They are really messing up my timing and all my instincts for judging trajectory when I am away from the table are wrong since the damned things bounce so low. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/01/2014 at 5:39pm
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If Nittaku creates a ball for the other TT companies, there will be hope. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: kolevtt
Date Posted: 08/01/2014 at 7:25pm
OooOoOoooOOOppppssss  Now we think the same ... That is one of the reasons I think with these balls lower skilled players have advantage VS more skilled players as nothing works well for the players who have developed their game with years and now everything is different, so their muscles can't produce the needed power, spin and speed. Totally different game. Some people wrote in their first impressions they like the new ball, but that means they are playing for a day or two. Or they are just beginners and they have no experience. I have no other explanation. My hope is these balls to be changed as soon is possible enough to be playable. The current stock I tested (Tibhar and Xushaofa poly balls) are better for using for some other purpose, but not and table tennis. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/01/2014 at 7:28pm
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Another thing, I seem to do better with the new balls on older Tibhar Smash 28 tables, and really struggled with them on relatively new Butterfly Europa tables. |
Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 08/01/2014 at 7:58pm
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Anyone know if any of the regional tournaments in the US are moving to using the plastic ball soon? ------------- Trade feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787 |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 08/01/2014 at 8:30pm
USATT committee mentioned in its May minutes that the Open and Nationals would use the 40C. "Meetings with ITTF and Youth Olympic Games Status Mr. Babuin and Mr. Lee attended recent ITTF meetings held in Japan. Mr. Lee made several recommendations to the Equipment Committee which were approved. Mr. Babuin commented that the new “noncelluloid” ball is being manufactured by three companies in China, one in Japan, and one in Germany. However, it is expected that the celluloid ball will continue to be used at the upcoming U.S. Open and Nationals." |
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 1:38am
when ITTF has done anything not related to grabbing money? and the bearded loser
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Posted By: Ciprian
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 3:00am
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Can't wait to see the first matches in a major Event with these new balls (which suck IMHO). Probably many players will go crazy.........or not. PS.- What's a blocker without a looper? ------------- Xi Enting FH-Aurus Sound BH- Pryde 30 |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 7:35am
Who is that single manufacturer in Japan, Butterfly or Nittaku? I suspect that it is Butterfly. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 8:03am
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It's definitely Nittaku. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 8:21am
That I find very surprising. With Butterfly's history and R&D facilities, I thought that they'd definitely be producing a version. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: jonyer1980
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 10:17am
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They never - ever had the best ball at all. Quality was just only on the average. I wonder where is going to be made poly-TSP, the second best tt ball so far during celuloid age. ------------- Rosewood V FL Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 1:48pm
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I have always rated Butterfly at the top for their balls when compared to DHS, DF, Joola and Donic. These are the ones supplied by tournament sponsors over here. I have a few Nittaku but not enough to compare. But I know several players who swear by them. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 3:52pm
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A few things about these balls that are strange. You have to constantly remind yourself to wait, to not rush, wait for the ball to come to you. But at the same time, when you drop back you have to be prepared to move forward quickly because these balls don't come out as far and dead or slow balls drop like a rock. But just forcing yourself to stay closer doesn't seem to be the answer because you just end up not having any leverage on attack. I think we will all need to practice front and back movements more than we do now. You need to be cautious about when to go all out on a third ball attack too, because the ball may come back. The feel for returns of serve is strange too. The low bounce is really annoying I have to say, but I suppose we will all eventually get used to it. You have to stay low hitting these balls even more than now, it really punishes any lapse in that. |
Posted By: kolevtt
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 4:45pm
Yes, here is the truth. I tested the new Tibhar poly ball in a game for points with lower skilled player than me. I played with classic defense style, using a paddle from 60's (Harvard conical thin handle and big head with double placed OX textile rubbers with orange pips out, something like Barna's paddles). What I can say here - with the old balls I beat that player easy 3:0 under 5 points each game or around this result. Impossible to lost a game. The rallies are often finishing after 3-4-5 hits. That player is playing double attack style with carbon blade and inverted rubbers, a true two winds looper and drive - smasher, not so good as quality of the strokes, but very experienced veteran, playing table tennis regular more than 30 years. So, what happened on the table with the new ball I will share it now - I was surprised how easy he is looping each ball, no matter my efforts in chopping. I tried different kind of chopping, different angle of the paddle for example to change the level of spin, nothing works. I was just smashed and I was forced to run a lot in all directions. I just lost my power in legs very fast, because each rally often was more than 10 balls, the less spin and speed of the ball made the things MUCH MORE EASY for my opponent, as he had enough time to move correct himself and prepare for the next hit, while I was forced to make incredible savings up to the end of the game. Also he was able to smash more of the balls directly because the lack of spin. He was so happy at the end  At the end of the game my opponent/partner just said : Xa Xa Xa! Do you want one more game? Because he saw I can't take a breath and I am really tired, much more easy to play with me... Of course If I am playing with the two inverted rubbers he is not so thankful to ITTF and their new most GENIUS idea with these balls, but also happy. Next - he asked me where are Joo and Koji, if they are still playing, because it will be pleasure to meet them with the new balls, he said laughing He really noticed I can't produce so high spin impossible for loop with his own muscle skills with this new Tibhar poly ball, also he noticed the longer rallies, the increased work with my legs I am doing during the games and the faster loss of power I felt by myself, that made me more slowly at the end and more easy for him to continue placing left - right- left - right. It was not any problem to combine shortly pushed balls with a loop next in the opposite direction I am placed at the moment after receiving a very strongly chopped ball. With the old balls this is impossible, usually he can't return. I am not sure about the future of the defenders. My prayers will be for them all The more heavier ball with lower jump and less spin is not a good idea for that style. The things are going triple more harder for defenders now with these balls. Only push blockers and pips-out drive-smashers will be happy I think, but after many trainings to understand the timing and jump of the new poly ball. There is no doubt I won't think for any long pips after January 2016. |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 5:09pm
| Thanks for the feedback Baal and Kolvett, from talking to various players at the clubs most everyone thinks the transition to the new ball will be easy but few if any players has had any experience with them,in general players don't expect to make any changes in how they play! There is only one player I know who has had much experience with the 40+ and he loves it, very physical player trains everyday says returning loops is a breeze. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 5:20pm
Sounds like what one would expect playing against anti. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: kolevtt
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 5:28pm
Yes, it is near the same. I will try to make a game tomorrow with my Yasaka Anti Power (max) once again VS that veteran if is possible and I will give a feedback later. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 6:18pm
The material used in the Nittaku Premium 40+ is likely different from what I gather. It is a special material developed in collaboration with http://www.toray.co.jp/" rel="nofollow - Toray . ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/02/2014 at 7:35pm
No, it's not as extreme as playing against anti. You can't ignore topspin, even it it is a bit less than before. I blocked a number of balls off the end of the table today when I misjudged spin (although you can definitely hit through topspin more easily if you are in the right place and time correctly). I am sure that in the fullness of time once my instincts change a bit to accommodate this ball (or whatever ball we end up with) I will have just as much fun playing TT. My partner and I had a few really good rallies today, more so as time went on. Still, I hope this not the ball that becomes the standard. Sometimes the ball just bounces badly. I actually think some choppers will like this ball more than attackers, but I am not a chopper, so they will have to speak for themselves. I had 30 min with a Nittaku Japan ball last week, it was better, the ball didn't bounce so low and so timing issues weren't so severe Even if ball spinned less, it was closer to current celluloid game. Main message with all of these new balls --- DON'T RUSH YOUR SHOT! And be prepared for some strange unexpected stuff. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 08/03/2014 at 1:41am
| I've hit a few times with the Nittaku 40+, but never for more than 5 minutes at a time. For purposes of adjusting, it reminds me of switching to a new rubber. Just takes a little getting used to. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/03/2014 at 2:00pm
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Yes, adjustments are required with a significant change in rubber, but the things that need adjusting with the new ball are different. Switching from, say, Vega to Tenergy 05, requires some minor adjustment in stroke but not adjustment in timing and footwork. However the new ball affects all of these things. If I switch from one offensive rubber to another it doesn't really affect how I react to my opponent's shots, but with the new ball if your opponent hits a particular shot that you have seen millions of times -- be it loop, push, block, whatever --- the new ball doesn't react quite the way you expect once it hits the table. It's not like playing against LP or anti or something like that IMHO (since the guys I mostly play with are full out offensive players). Their loop is still a loop, their is no "spin reversal", the ball is not dead, you certainly can't play an offensive player now as if they are an anti or LP player. It's just that their offensive shots not behaving quite the same way, and it is just enough to mess up. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/03/2014 at 11:13pm
I think he was speaking about the Nittaku Japan ball specifically - everything I hear about that ball is relatively good compared to the others. I just need to get my hands on one... ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/03/2014 at 11:29pm
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Not clear from his post since he didn't specify that detail. I have played with Nittaku 40+ Made in China, and they are the same as the DHS, Joola, etc. Those are generally available now and so more likely that is what he had, and as I said, quite a few adjustments are needed. The only reason I got to hit with a Japan Nittaku 40+ is because a US team member who plays at my club had one (and only one) ---although there do seem to be a few of them floating around various places in the US. The ball came in a box of one! I had never seen that before. It is a lot better (the ball, not the box). No question. It wasn't exactly like celluloid, but close enough. I will order some as soon as they go on sale somewhere accessible to me. One last thing. If all you do is hit some counters or loop a few balls while someone blocks at you, you will not see all the ways that the Chinese polyballs are different. It will feel a little different but perfectly ok. You really need to play some live points, and the longer you go, the more things you will find that you will need to adjust. You will have to keep a few things consciously in mind until the way this ball plays becomes instinctive, and that is never a good thing. Don't underestimate what it will take to feel comfortable with these. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 12:02am
Benfb is in Oregon and pretty close to Paddle Palace, who is sending out most of these balls. That doesn't make you wrong, but does explain how he might have come into contact with the ball, amongst other possibilities. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 12:06am
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Actually the Japan Nittaku 40+ I got to try came from there, so it is possible. Perhaps we should wait for him to specify what it was. And also, we also should wait until he has played for more than 5 minutes at a time with whatever it was. (The first comment I wrote on the seamed Chinese balls was that is is no big deal, we should all adjust easily, in a few hours or so. With some 15 hrs of match and free play now under my belt, I realize that was far too optimistic. The Nittaku Japan balls cannot get here soon enough). |
Posted By: tabletennis11
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 3:23am
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We are currently in the process of doing a full review and video review of the DHS plastic ball with our equipment expert, Matt Hetherington. Should be all done in the next few days. We also released a segment in our latest newsletter on 7 important tips you need to know to adjust to playing with the new ball :D ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6QlKrAbsMQ?utm_source=mytt-signature" rel="nofollow - Click Here to see TableTennis11 CEO Sergei Petrov's Introductory Interview - Tabletennis11.com |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 9:53am
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I played with both the Joola & Donic plastic ball last night. Got a lot of video as well as recorded club member's thoughts. I'll post the video here tomorrow or possibly Wednesday. But overall first impression of the ball? Wow as a lot been made over nothing IMO. Is it different? Yes. But we are talking about subtle differences. The feel is slightly different but again. Very small differences. Virtually everyone in the club last night was playing exclusively with the poly balls last night and reactions were overall positive. I'll have video soon. PS - Could not tell the difference between the Donic & Joola balls. Both are seemed. Both played virtually identical as far as I could tell from the few hours of play. Based on that, the club will probably move forward with whatever seemed 3 star ball is cheapest.... And no broken balls that night.
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Posted By: kolevtt
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 10:12am
Hello, I am impressed very positively from your review What is the level of your partners/players in the club and your own? Did you play for points during this training? |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 10:41am
That's weird, because user "mynamenotbob" reported the opposite 2 days ago:
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=278973&sid=74b6dd9af2bb1aa4f17e6b7a070550fc#p278973" rel="nofollow - http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=278973&sid=74b6dd9af2bb1aa4f17e6b7a070550fc#p278973 |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 12:29pm
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This is in response to the two last posts. Kolevtt, We're in a small to medium sized down. All the players range from the 1300-1800 level that night. Our highest level player is 2100 but unfortunately he wasn't there that night. The play styles also ranged. We have a few heavy spin duel inverted players who like to loop. We have a very good Seemiller close to the table blocker and I play penhold short pips. We practiced and played several matches. Based on my observations, nobody was beating another that they wouldn't normally have. The playing levels and classes of players seemed about the same. Mastermind, I can confirm, and we'll see this in the video that the new balls are indeed harder than the celluloid balls. This would normally concern me as since they have less give, they'd break more. But all I can tell you is that last night we didn't have a single broken ball with virtually everybody (15 people?) hitting with them for a few hours. I know myself as a SP player, I'm hitting more flat into balls and I have video of me whopping a few really hard. Still, no breaks. Need more playing time to confirm their durability. |
Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 12:43pm
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Played with Joola 40+ last night. The guy DIDN'T TELL ME. Sound was very difficult to tell apart from the celluloid balls. It did feel different but I thought it was just a cheaper, LIGHTER ball, because this guy never buys good balls. It plays totally different than my Xushaufa ball. Mine sounds plastic, but feels HARD and HEAVY and has GREAT CONTROL. Joola sounded natural but the path of the ball was very disruptive to my game. It was hard to adjust in just one match. Not my experience, again, from the xushaufa ball. I liked the chinese, but i don't like this one. I don't know what to think any more. ------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 12:48pm
What about "we are screwed"? |
Posted By: garwor
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 1:17pm
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Don't be boiling frogs, boycott bad changes! ------------- http://stonitenis.rs/equipmentreviews" rel="nofollow - Equipment database Yinhe MC-2 FL fh: Xiom Vega pro bh: Xiom Vega pro Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services! |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 1:40pm
Did you immediately see the difference? I did that trick to a practice partner without telling him and he noticed the difference after the second warmup rally, and stopped, starred at the ball and asked me what it was. I think a lot of people would agree with you that: 1. Seamed vs. unseamed Chinese balls are quite different, especially sound but also feel. 2. Joola and it's ilk (seamed Chinese) sound more like conventional celluloid but the aspects that take getting used to emerge when you don't know in advance right where the ball is going (in free play) and are disruptive. Actually there are some people in my club who prefer the XSF to the Joola, mainly because of the higher bounce. Personally, I hate the sound of the XSF too much and it seemed to slow the game down more, but in a way it was less disruptive. I am not sure at this point which is worse. I think I should try the XSF ball a bit more. @suds My experience with quite a few matches and lots of free play with these things is that outcomes are the same as usual, just like at your club, but quality of play from both players is lower. This was also my experience when we switched from 38 to 40 (which persisted for several months). I have to say that I am really unhappy with roundness and durability of the seamed balls I have had so far. It could be that there is a much greater batch variation than we are used to. |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 1:45pm
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Okay I couldn't wait. Plus the video after I throw it together might be a little longer. Here's the gist of what players said about the new ball.
- The new ball is harder - The spin appears to be slightly down - Blocking is easier. http://chroniclesofgossima.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://chroniclesofgossima.blogspot.com For full thoughts on the matter, see the blog. Check it out if you're interested.
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Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 08/04/2014 at 4:25pm
I think this response will be wide spread in smaller clubs around the country, I know of several clubs that have a player population that would not find these balls that unusual. The question for these clubs will come down to cost and whether they think its worth the money to change.
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Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 08/05/2014 at 10:11am
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Here's some video of play from Sunday with the two new balls. |