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Footwork technique

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Topic: Footwork technique
Posted By: mjamja
Subject: Footwork technique
Date Posted: 09/25/2014 at 7:01pm
When I watch video of good players, especially Chinese players, doing footwork drills I notice two significant differences from what I do.

1. Their feet hardly leave the floor.  When I see video of myself I am clearly lifting my feet off the ground.   I am trying not to jump but still my feet seem to be much higher off the ground.

2. Their feet seem to move almost simultaneously.  My trailing foot moves very early and it seems that often the leading foot does not even start moving until the trailing foot almost lands at its final location.

I know both of these differences really slow my movement down.  Despite my best efforts I can not seem to figure out a way to get closer to the kind of footwork I see good players doing.

Are there any specific techniques I might need to use or is there anything I might be doing that I should stop doing in order to get my footwork more in line with that of better players.

Note: I am referring to footwork done closer to the table for small to medium movements and not to cross-over type moves nor footwork at mid-distance from the table.

Mark



Replies:
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/25/2014 at 7:13pm
Mark, depending on your age and fitness level, there may be some general things you can do in the gym to help with that but I don't think there's any quick fix.  Multiball drills are the main way to develop that kind of efficiency.  I don't know if that is an easy option where you're at.  The Chinese players have been doing insane multiball drills (in terms of duration and intensity) since they were little kids, delivered by people who know what they are doing.  Some coach once told me that it's only when you are getting totally exhausted during a multiball drill that your most efficient form comes out because you have no choice.  Maybe some others have a faster method, but this seems like a big part of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RswAMesc57c

see around 1:30 for one really good one.


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 09/25/2014 at 7:19pm
Ball,

Well that should actually be a pretty quick fix since I get exhausted after about 6 balls :)

Mark


Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 09/25/2014 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Some coach once told me that it's only when you are getting totally exhausted during a multiball drill that your most efficient form comes out because you have no choice. 


I find that I play my best late in a tournament because I don't have the energy to run around frantically trying to kill every ball.  The tireder I get the smarter I play. 


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 09/25/2014 at 9:31pm
Ball and MTS288,

I really do think it is more than a strength or endurance issue.  I can not make even a single move without my feet behaving a whole lot differently than what happens with good players.  If for example I was not swinging the racket correctly for a loop, you probably would not tell me to go to the weight room and improve my arm strength.  You most likely would tell me something about changing how my feet are positioned or how I am taking the racket back in the backswing.

It might be related to something that I am doing in the basic stance like having feet too narrow or not having enough bend in the knees.  Maybe there is actually some initiation move that I am not making.  Once coach mentioned something about "pulling" with the leading leg.  On some videos of the pro players it appears that the hips and upper body kind of slide in the direction of movement just before the feet start moving.  I have tried doing that and it did seem to help, but I am not sure if that is really good or bad technique since it is kind of a form of "leaning" toward the ball.  Maybe this is not even what I am actually seeing on the video.

Anyway if anyone has ever got a tip or a technical detail or making those shorter, both feet at same time, type movements please let me know.

Mark




Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 09/25/2014 at 9:49pm
Mark, a few quesions:

Exactly how wide is your stance when looping? My (very uninformed) opion is that it's nearly impossible to swing agressively at the ball with a narrow stance and not have the feet come off the floor.

When you reach the end of your backswing on a forehand loop, how do you initiate the forward swing? Do you "push off" on your right foot or do you simply think about firing the right hip? Perhaps exaggerating the hip rotation and thinking about the stroke as a circular motion could help with this.

Can you hit your loops in warmups without your feet coming off the floor, when you dont have to move at all?

I wish I had some better advice, but I struggle with this same problem. Curious to hear everyone's thoughts.


Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 09/25/2014 at 9:54pm
In other words, can you do what Zhang Jike is doing at the 1:02 mark of this video?






Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/25/2014 at 10:11pm
Do you have any vid of your footwork drills? Hard to asses without seeing what you are doing.



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DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 09/25/2014 at 11:29pm
Ringer84,

My stance is about 3ft wide (about 2xshoulder width) most of the time although it does sometimes get a little narrower.

Unless I am going for a kill my loop starts more with the hips without a pushoff.  Sometimes it just starts with the arm.

I can loop without moving my feet off the ground  and I think I do that most of the time.

The problem with the feet leaving the ground was not really when following through.  I was talking about being in the ready position, seeing the ball going wide enough that I need to move, and then trying to move there before swinging.  When I watch the Chinese players they seem to never let their feet get off the floor that much.  When I try to move both feet come off the ground several inches and the trailing foot always seems to have to get to its destination before I can get the leading foot to start moving.  Both those things eat up time before I can get set at my new position.  That is the move I am trying to speed up.

Mark


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 12:20am
Footwork - the most difficult skill to master and hence to teach, in real life. So keep your expectation low coz it will be so many times harder through the internet.

Before heading down the road, you need to get the specific footwork down right first, like what foot to move, in what order etc. Then you need a decent sparring partner. Do it with a single ball with fixed placement and start slow and soft. Don't worry about the shot quality. Concentrate on grooving the order of movement.

Now your turn:

Can you link us a video of any pros doing what you want to achieve?

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: lordcope
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 5:21am
Caveat: My footwork isn't great yet, but it's rapidly improving.

Background: My coach also coaches some of the top English juniors (#2 U13, #11 Cadet, #3 Junior, #7 U21. #14 Senior).  His number one focus is footwork.

General guidance:

- Wider stance is not necessarily better.  To move quickly you must push hard with the inside leg (so left if you're going right), and the furher apart your legs are, the harder it is to get that propulsion.
- Movement should be focussed on gliding, not stepping or jumping.  The feet need leave the floor on my a few millimetres, only sufficient to reduce friction
- Consciously move after every shot, even if it's only a fractional movement.  It much harder to move from stationary.  If you're already moving it's easier.  Be moving all the time.
- Drill multiball as often as possible.  5 ball is great, Wide to Fh, between fh and mid table, mid table, between mid table and bh and wide to bh.  Play FH to all these shots.  Quickly.  Occasionally mix up.  Vary length and spin and pace so you have to move in and out as well as sideways (actually in an arc to keep correct position)
- For a really intense workout, put two tables together, and do a similar exercise, but now you have twice as far to travel
- Avoid training a shot in one position.  This is one of the biggest mistakes made - people groove their FH topspin with their feet planted like trees in one place.  Rarely is a training partner able to provide that degree of accuracy anyway, so form tends to be messed up my people leaning and stretching, thus not playing the same shot every time.  Robot are more predictable, but you still need to keep moving.  Much better to program the robot to oscillate.  Some robots have excellent random programmes.  The key is that TT is a game about movement.  Learn the mechanics of the shot, so you always play the same shot, but learn also to move in space and time so you can play that shot optimally.  This demands movement.
- Do a lot of skipping (jumping rope).  All the above-mentioned juniors skip insanely well.  This is brilliant for strength, stamina, footspeed, breathcontrol.  Skip where you switch foot every time, and move sideways and backwards.
- Do some more skipping.
- Incorporate other footwork drills without a bat.  Move as fast as possible from left end of the long side of the table, touch with right hand, move quickly to right side, touch with left hand.  See how many you can do in 60 secs.
- Do short shuttle runs, up to the length of about 2-3 tables (no longer).
- Always spend time at training doing a full warmup before picking up the bat - get your muscles warm and relaxed and your heart beat up

Hope some of this helps!


-------------
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 #19 2.2mm (black)
BH: DHS Skyline TG2 #19 2.2mm (red)
Blade: DHS Dipper SP10

"Patience has all the time it needs." - Allan Lokos


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 8:41am
Caveat:  My footwork is putrid, so I am an expert in how to do it wrong.

Is your whole foot down on the floor?  When I see good players doing multiball they pivot on the balls of their feet so both heels turn in the direction they are moving, and they sort of glide across the floor that way.  Both feet move at the same time.  I can try to find a video if you don't know what I mean.

I stand flat on the floor so I have to pick up each foot and almost walk around behind the table.  From the OP it sounds like you do something similar.  Maybe work on your balance and weight distribution more than strength or aerobic fitness.  Of course if I knew something that worked I'd have done it myself.  


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 9:23am
Footwork is one of the hardest things to fix in table tennis so I usually tell people that unless you want to do a lot of multiball, have 10 hours a week to dedicate and are really healthy, the bulk of the dividends from major footwork drills have pretty much passed you by as an adult.

The main thing is that both feet should move on just about every shot.  That's makes it hard for people with general knee/weight issues.  But if you commit to that in practice, your footwork tends to improve even without formal training to a decent degree.

The other two problems are harder: one is being able to play at a distance from the table where the right first motion is not to extend your racket hand, but to move towards the ball with your racket hand close to your body.  The other is being able to keep your balance in the middle of your body so you can stably move in either direction.  Those are beyond me.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 10:52am
This has been linked to many times before, but it's a good example.  Slo-mo starts around 1:30.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhbkp27Dldo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhbkp27Dldo

This guy has his weight forward almost all the time.  He bounces on the balls of his feet and only sets his heels down to rebalance for a second.  It's impossible to move like this if you stand flat-footed with your weight back.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 11:17am
I like that video BRS.  It is the way kids and young people should move and they develop that after tons of multiball training.  But, I seriously doubt that the majority of adult players can do this, and the whole approach for an older player for getting in the best possible position  has to be different. 

The way shown here: 

is how they do it in China.  But these kids are really little!

Somewhere there is or was a video of Wener Schlager showing a younger player his very efficient way of moving, which in some ways was different from what the classic Chinese video posted above says.  It was controversial here, some people saying "that's not the right way to move", but it struck me then and now that is a lot more likely to be something people here can actually do.  But now I can't find that video!!!!


Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:



Somewhere there is or was a video of Wener Schlager showing a younger player his very efficient way of moving, which in some ways was different from what the classic Chinese video posted above says.  It was controversial here, some people saying "that's not the right way to move", but it struck me then and now that is a lot more likely to be something people here can actually do.  But now I can't find that video!!!!


I'm on it, Baal!






Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 11:40am
Thanks Ringer!!!!!   Seeing that again is in inspiration.


Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:



Somewhere there is or was a video of Wener Schlager showing a younger player his very efficient way of moving, which in some ways was different from what the classic Chinese video posted above says.  It was controversial here, some people saying "that's not the right way to move", but it struck me then and now that is a lot more likely to be something people here can actually do.  But now I can't find that video!!!!




I'm on it, Baal!







I think this is acceptable footwork for tall players who can effectively just take a step to their right to cover the forehand. Persson does this as well during drills.


Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 2:09pm
I think the importance of the recovery step after hitting a shot is often overshadowed. It's this intermediate step that makes it possible to transition from shot to shot smoothly.

Typical for the FH, initiating the proper footwork often involves a rotation of the body that rotates the feet into the proper position, as opposed to simply just taking a linear step.

This rotation, as opposed to a slight hop executed when lifting the foot for a step, might be the trick to allow you to stay closer to the ground.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 2:12pm
Yes.  Also, Schlager is not a giant, maybe the OP is taller than he is.  (Now for that little kid he is coaching it may not be that easy to make that step!)  For me anyway, the Schlager approach is feasible (in fact it's pretty much how I move) whereas the way the Chinese coach is suggesting is just not feasible for me, not in my wildest dreams.  Maybe if I was still in my teens or 20s.

So I would study guys who aren't that quick but who are balanced and effective.  Maybe guys like Primorac.  Watch how they move.

It is good to emulate the great players when you can.  The trick is to figure out which ones are doing stuff you could conceivably incorporate into your game.  So maybe a tall guy might want to emulate Samonsov or Ovtcharov or Oh Sang Eun more than, say, FZD.  If you are slow, you might want to emulate guys who are slow but still good, like Persson or Primorac or maybe even Karakašević.  Guys like Xu Xin are fun to watch, but there is almost nothing he does that I would even think about trying.


Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 2:20pm
Here's a video of the Falkenberg drill. The feet stay together and move together as you've observed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0BUzR38hlE" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0BUzR38hlE

http://youtu.be/y7KuF67wlwI?t=1m1s" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/y7KuF67wlwI?t=1m1s


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 6:56pm
Racquetsforsale,

Those 2 videos show exactly what I am unable to do.

In my case I just can not seem to get both feet to move that simultaneously.  In fact despite my best efforts I always seem to move one foot almost to its new position (having the feet come pretty close to each other) and then the other foot moves to its new position.  Effectively this takes almost twice as long to get to the new position as it would if both feet moved together.  Also I seem to be hopping over to the new position instead of that slide or glide motion you see in the videos you posted.

I have a very clear picture of what I want to do.  I go practice and think I am pretty close to doing it.  Then I look at the video and what I see myself doing is not anywhere close to what I thought I was doing.

That is why I was hoping there was some little trick or technique that I was not using that would allow me to do what I was envisioning that I was doing.

Mark


Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 09/26/2014 at 7:41pm
Mark,

I think I understand what you're describing. It's tennis footwork. A video of you will be helpful as others have suggested. My best guess is that you're not using torso rotation in conjunction with the skip. Try executing your FH stroke while sitting on a swivel chair. Notice how you can place your feet into position by rotating on the chair.


Posted By: IanMcg
Date Posted: 09/27/2014 at 12:22am
I'll just drop this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgvhAWWsoJk


Posted By: sandiway
Date Posted: 09/27/2014 at 12:48am
Let me share this video. This is my wife's sister illustrating how to do a footwork drill properly at my house. 

She's very light on her feet, *well balanced* and the loop is plenty strong. The key is to hold that balance during the drill. If you watch it in slow-mo, you can clearly see how it's done. Everyone can loop one or maybe three hard but end up overbalanced. Therefore it becomes tough/impossible to recover for the next ball. In other words, the weight transfer has to be done but not overdone. 


Even without the ball, I find it impossible to copy what's she's doing in real-time. It's really not so easy. Try it. You have to be very economical with movement to keep it going.


Posted By: Fehrplay
Date Posted: 09/27/2014 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

In other words, can you do what Zhang Jike is doing at the 1:02 mark of this video?





Wow, what a match! 


Posted By: ameetnsharma
Date Posted: 09/24/2016 at 10:19pm
I'm having the same issues described in this thread. I have a specific question.

For the really small steps... hopsteps... do you jump off the ground with both feet or with just one quickly followed by the other?

This makes a huge difference to me... it seems to take me 10 times as much effort to jump off with both feet. But it seems like the pros jump with both feet together.

Like in this video:

at around 1:17.

I'm unable to jump off with both feet smoothly the way he does. It looks almost effortless. Plus his upper body barely moves during the jump... my upper body moves a lot more.

Is this just a matter of developing leg strength?


-------------
Get to the chopper!


Posted By: ameetnsharma
Date Posted: 09/24/2016 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

Let me share this video. This is my wife's sister illustrating how to do a footwork drill properly at my house. 

She's very light on her feet, *well balanced* and the loop is plenty strong. The key is to hold that balance during the drill. If you watch it in slow-mo, you can clearly see how it's done. Everyone can loop one or maybe three hard but end up overbalanced. Therefore it becomes tough/impossible to recover for the next ball. In other words, the weight transfer has to be done but not overdone. 


Even without the ball, I find it impossible to copy what's she's doing in real-time. It's really not so easy. Try it. You have to be very economical with movement to keep it going.

Very nice footwork. I think what puzzles me is... how does one jump like that wiithout having to crouch the body at all... I mean there's barely a vertical motion to the jump... it's almost side to side gliding. I find it impossible to get off the ground without more vertical motion.


-------------
Get to the chopper!


Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 09/24/2016 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by ameetnsharma ameetnsharma wrote:

I'm having the same issues described in this thread. I have a specific question.

For the really small steps... hopsteps... do you jump off the ground with both feet or with just one quickly followed by the other?

This makes a huge difference to me... it seems to take me 10 times as much effort to jump off with both feet. But it seems like the pros jump with both feet together.

Like in this video:

at around 1:17.

I'm unable to jump off with both feet smoothly the way he does. It looks almost effortless. Plus his upper body barely moves during the jump... my upper body moves a lot more.

Is this just a matter of developing leg strength?

 
***Edit

i think its more of staying lower and not reaching/being lazy as mentioned in the video. You can shadow train the movement in the video on daily basis too. I would focus more on endurance and reaction on the initial hopstep. And for continuous hopsteps, leg strength alone wouldnt be as beneficial as working on strength and reaction together.

Jump rope exercises would help with endurance, strength, and reaction.


-------------
Main:
Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g
FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm

Chopper:
Stratus Power Defense 85g
FH: Hybrid K3 max
BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm

USATT: 1725


Posted By: ameetnsharma
Date Posted: 09/24/2016 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:


 
***Edit

i think its more of staying lower and not reaching/being lazy as mentioned in the video. You can shadow train the movement in the video on daily basis too. I would focus more on endurance and reaction on the initial hopstep. And for continuous hopsteps, leg strength alone wouldnt be as beneficial as working on strength and reaction together.

Jump rope exercises would help with endurance, strength, and reaction.

Thanks. So is his jump thrust coming completely from his feet? (ie pushing off the balls of his feet?) his legs barely bend during the jump.


-------------
Get to the chopper!


Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 09/24/2016 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by ameetnsharma ameetnsharma wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:


 
***Edit

i think its more of staying lower and not reaching/being lazy as mentioned in the video. You can shadow train the movement in the video on daily basis too. I would focus more on endurance and reaction on the initial hopstep. And for continuous hopsteps, leg strength alone wouldnt be as beneficial as working on strength and reaction together.

Jump rope exercises would help with endurance, strength, and reaction.

Thanks. So is his jump thrust coming completely from his feet? (ie pushing off the balls of his feet?) his legs barely bend during the jump.

i think so. 

here is another good video



-------------
Main:
Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g
FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm

Chopper:
Stratus Power Defense 85g
FH: Hybrid K3 max
BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm

USATT: 1725


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/25/2016 at 12:32am
A coach told me that if you want to move to play a forehand, which is where 90+% of footwork errors begin for two winged loopers, the most important thing is to turn the shoulders first.vv Then you tend to hit the ball before your left foot lands on the floor, no matter which direction you are moving to hit the ball in.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: sandiway
Date Posted: 09/25/2016 at 12:52am
Originally posted by ameetnsharma ameetnsharma wrote:

Very nice footwork. I think what puzzles me is... how does one jump like that wiithout having to crouch the body at all... I mean there's barely a vertical motion to the jump... it's almost side to side gliding. I find it impossible to get off the ground without more vertical motion.

She was at my house again last month. There is a _lot_ to get. Her footwork/stroke is the smooth, slick integration of a lot of different things.

1. Notice the waist and foot twist on each ball. This to me is harder, costs more energy than the side skipping. This plus the backwards/forwards weight shifts gives the ball real quality. 

2. As others have pointed out also, one should barely bounce upwards. Energy is most profitably spent going side to side. She said the reduction in vertical bounce will come given enough balls and time, since you must maximize the efficiency of the forces deployed in order to survive a bucket of balls. (I bounce up and down too much.)

3. When you land, you should visualize anchoring your driving foot to the floor before twisting. Then drive everything off that.

4. When you land, there is a subtle weight shift backwards (not just to the right) onto the anchor foot. When you do the foot twist, there is a weight shift forwards to the other foot. Avoiding the appearance of rocking will also come with enough balls and time.

So there is weight shift laterally (bounce); there is weight shift back and forth; there is the foot twist. And I haven't even detailed the arm close, the ball contact point, or the read of the incoming ball. When everything clicks, it's beautiful, naturally effortless yet hard as hell. I want it. But it's a longterm project; especially if you've been doing it "naturally" wrong for years and have to unlearn like me. That's the fun.




Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/25/2016 at 1:08am
Sandiway. It is amazing footwork. She makes it look so easy and it's for sure not!



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