Nittaku Premium 40+ balls (Japan)
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Topic: Nittaku Premium 40+ balls (Japan)
Posted By: Baal
Subject: Nittaku Premium 40+ balls (Japan)
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 12:48pm
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I finally got mine today, from Iruiru. I will play with them later today and then give another impression of them, and after a week or two give a more full review (because I think it maybe takes awhile to figure a few key things out, like durability). Here are the first things I have noticed, though, just taking them out of the box. 1. They bounce! By which I mean they bounce almost exactly the same height as a celluloid ball when dropped onto a granite counter top, and pretty much the same or slightly lower than an ITTF approved XSF ball. This is very encouraging and recapitulates my experience with one of these balls earlier. It is markedly different from the Nittaku SHA 40+ that is made in China, which bounce much lower in this same crude test (and in real play). 2. They are a seamed ball but they look different from all other seamed balls. The plastic has a different texture, it is very bright to the eyes, and the seam is quite difficult to see. You have to look pretty close to see it is not a seamless ball. These are definitely different. Added... I can not find a date of manufacture stamp on the box, but presumably they are fairly recent. Odd because ITTF had said they required that now. On the side of the box it says, "Plastic supplied by Toray Industries Inc.). |
Replies:
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 12:50pm
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Got mine from the post office this morning - got 12 of them (4 boxes of 3). Will be interesting. I wonder how durable they will be - Mastermind has already prepared me for the worst so my hopes are not high. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: nittakuball
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 12:53pm
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mine arrived yesterday. I said it play better than other 40+ balls ------------- DHS 032 Butterfly Bryce Highspeed Singapore & Canada |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 2:03pm
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Why is it that you can get the new balls, but Paddle Palace won't get them for a couple of more weeks? |
Posted By: nittakuball
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 2:41pm
Because we order direct from japan ------------- DHS 032 Butterfly Bryce Highspeed Singapore & Canada |
mts388 wrote:Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 3:26pm
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Which meant that we paid more in shipping than you will when you get them from Paddle Palace. But I was pretty anxious to get my hands on some as soon as I could. Time will tell if it was worth it. |
Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 3:26pm
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------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 3:40pm
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 4:05pm
------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 4:31pm
I have some of each and can compare them in terms of how they play and last, etc. (even though only the Japan one is labeled as Premium). Both are ITTF approved. Just looking at them it is clear that they are quite different balls, and the bounce test shows a big difference right away. |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 4:38pm
I wonder if Paddle Palace knows anyone in Japan?  |
Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 5:49pm
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I guess US nationals are still "on" for the Nittaku premium. Despite the fact local supplies are now listed as November? Or will they go with China Nittaku 3 star 40+ balls? |
Posted By: nittakuball
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 6:47pm
The Japan Made Premium Nittaku 40+ are more solid and better than China made Nittaku 40+. The china Made nittaku is easy to broken like DHS 40+ as long you hit hard on the edge on the blade it broken. ------------- DHS 032 Butterfly Bryce Highspeed Singapore & Canada |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 10:39pm
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Broke one already... ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 10:40pm
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Didn't play much tonight but the Nittaku Premiums are clearly better than the Joola 40+ (no surprise there). A bit more solid feeling than the XSF. Nice high bounce. Not enough time to say much more. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/15/2014 at 10:43pm
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Yes, it played excellently. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: speedy
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 12:24am
Baal, So if I look at the Nittaku Preminum in the wrong way, they would break like Joola Super-P, right?  ------------- SPEEDY Viscaria Super ALC ST JOOLA Rhyzen CMD(FH) Nittaku Moristo SP (BH) |
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 12:56am
I have not broken a DHS or Nittaku (China) after a few hours of play... I suspect some batches are lot better than others, or I don't hit hard enough  I'd be most interested to hear if the Nittaku Japan is spinny... The seamless seem to bounce higher but spin less... so if this seamed ball bounces as high as a seamless but is spinnier like a seamed, we might indeed have a winner. ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 1:09am
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Personally I don't think there is any significant difference in spin with seamless vs. seamed 40+ balls, certainly not when they are flying in the air. I think it is purely a matter of slightly increased size I think and all of the plastic balls are larger than the older celluloid. The higher bounce may mean that some of the spin is not reaching the opponent's blade. I'm not at all sure of the physics of that. (And I shudder to think about the arguments that could ensue if people started thinking about that). But if that is true, then the Nittaku Premium should be much closer to XSF, since it bounces like celluloid. That is an improvement -- which you get for a premium price. And I don't know yet about their durability. Next Level's comment makes me worry about that. I can't say much about tonight but the balls seemed pretty good at first look. The guy I was playing with was actually too good, so it was hard for me to judge. He was ripping them really hard and with tremendous amounts of spin -- as usual. |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 3:29am
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I broke a Double Fish after about 15 hours of play hitting the edge of my blade. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 9:41am
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I don't know about other people, but after 15 hrs, for me even a celluloid ball was only good for serving practice. |
Posted By: FlatHitter
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 10:26am
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Our club switched to the polyball last night 10/15/14...to me, it was a lot more fun..longer rallies and a harder workout. I am through with the "old" balls, sometimes change is good. personally, i was against this change and i was wrong..there better! ------------- If your phone is'nt ringing, it's probably me... |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 10:39am
| The search for the holy grail poly ball continues but the reality is that players will face a variety of patented balls both in tournaments, home clubs and traveling. How this variety impacts the sport such as coaching,practice,robot training and player interest is going to be much more important then what ball eventually gets the holy grail crown. Adding to the mix is that a year from now most if not all the current poly balls will change in order to fit ITTF standards. For me I am waiting for the local clubs that sponsor weekly RR to change over to poly and don't expect them all to be the same so the endless chatter about which ball is best means little rather the challenge will be playing with both seamless and seamed balls from different manufactures and understanding how to adapt. I do enjoy reading players comments about the new balls and give a big hat tip to Baal for his efforts but at the end of the day I will have to play with whatever ball the club or tournament has specified. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 1:27pm
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An interesting fact about the Nittaku 40+ ball is that its weight falls at the very low end of the ITTF approved range (which can be found here http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/T3_Ball40mm_BoD2013.pdf) They are the only 40+ ball you can say that about. The others are very barely in compliance (XSF) or, as far as I can tell, clearly out of compliance (Joola). For what it's worth, there are a lot of factors besides weight that go into determining how heavy a ball feels when you play with it. Frankly, i doubt it is possible to feel these actual very small weight differences when you play. Softness and hardness and compressibility probably matter more (as a poorly inflated football can feel heavy when you try to kick it). |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 2:23pm
Numbers, numbers please. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 5:22pm
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As requested, here is data on weight of various kinds of balls. My
calipers have been misplaced, so will have to wait to get diameters.
Each is an average of 6 balls +/- standard error of the mean. Nittaku 40+ Premium from Japan (these are unused balls out of the box) 2.694 +/- 0.007 XSF 40+ ITTF approved (unused balls out of the box) 2.753 +/- 0.004 Butterfly 3 star white celluloid ball (these have been played with quite a bit, I just don't have any new celluloids to compare) 2.74 +/- 0.012 Joola P 40+ (these have been played with, but only once or twice) 2.801 +/- 0.008 Obviously the fact that some of these have been used and some are new suggests that maybe the ones that are played with gain weight from stuff they pick up from the table and floor that gets embedded in the surface?? I wiped them off as best as I could before weighing them but still. On the other hand, new balls have powder substance that gets on your rubber when you first use them. I notice this is true for plastic balls as well as celluloid. So the conclusion is in any case that the Nittaku Premium and XSF balls are not particularly heavy, and they meet current ITTF standards for weight. more here http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68759&PID=832865&title=best-way-to-transition-to-40-balls#832865 |
Posted By: nittakuball
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 7:48pm
I try all the above balls so far Nittaku Premium 40+ Balls the best 2nd XSF balls 40+. Butterfly 40+ will be out Dec ------------- DHS 032 Butterfly Bryce Highspeed Singapore & Canada |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 10:49pm
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Spent 2.5 hrs with Nittaku Premium 40+ again tonight and let some other people use some who have been using other 40+ balls recently. Unanimous conclusion: Nittaku Premium is the best playing 40+ ball any of us have tried, and XSF is next best. Then there is a gap. Then there are the others which nobody really likes but which we can play with if necessary since we have gotten used to the size and speed of the newer balls. In other words, exactly what Nittakuball just wrote. Nittaku Premium has a nice high bounce, and I still have the impression that it feels more solid and possibly slightly faster than the XSF, interesting since it is a little bit lighter on average. Now I really wish I had my calipers so I could measure diameters. We didn't break one tonight. That's good news. However the surface seems to wear more in normal play than XSF. I am going to guess here that it won't be as durable overall as XSF but time will tell. Finally, it is definitely a 40+, so it is a touch slower and less spinny in the air than celluloid, but it is by far the closest to celluloid of all polyballs in terms of playing quality. I will have to use them more against several more players to decide if it maybe retains a little more spin coming off the bounce than XSF. I am quite content with either Nittaku Premium or XSF. XSF wins on price. Nittaku wins on play. IMHO these are the two balls that deserve to dominate the market. |
Posted By: nittakuball
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 11:51pm
+1 ------------- DHS 032 Butterfly Bryce Highspeed Singapore & Canada |
Posted By: rick_ys_ho
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:30am
| I am curious what poly balls ITTF pro tour will start using. |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 3:22am
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DIVERSITY OF THE BALLS IS A REAL BENEFIT FOR OUR SPORT. According to the elementary mechanics: --The lesser mass of a ball, the greater rotation the ball would display in looping play. This is the true scientifical answer why Nittaku plastic is the best spinny ball of all the others on today's market. Still, my inner whisperer tells me that a vast majority of the seniors and common club incomers will eventually prefer DHS 40+ (=2.80g) to play with, just because of the not-so-crazy spin and speed generated by the DHS weighty plastic. BLESSED DIVERSITY. Let there be some diversity of tt balls on the market. Players must be allowed to make theit own preffered choice. Defensive players will surely like the lighter-softer balls, and heavy loopers will opt for hefty species LET IT BE SO !!!!!! |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 3:58am
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ITTF will not approve the current version of DHS balls after a certain point if they stick to what they have been insisting up to now. At present, the DHS do not currently meet the required specs for either weight (2.8 is too heavy) or bounce (too low). ITTF has approved the Chinese seamed balls for the time being but their stated expectation is that they will enforce more stringent standards before long. I guess we will see. Also, market forces will determine some of this and people will make decisions on price, play, availability, and durability. Some people will stick with celluloid as long as they can, which may be forever if they keep making them. I thought DHS made a pretty good celluloid ball from 2009 and later after they changed something in their formula. So they are capable of innovating and this current ball is not going to be their final product. It can't be. One last thing I have noticed at the clubs where I play is that the preference for higher bouncing balls (as opposed to the ones that don't meet ITTF standards) is shared by everyone pretty much regardless of style. Loopers, defenders, penhold blocker/hitter. This includes SP, LP and inverted. All of the 40+ are a little slower and less spinny than celluloid. So if the DHS suits your criss-cross blocking style, so will the XSF and Nittaku Premium, at least that's my guess based on what I've seen from pretty intensive investigation of this whole matter. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 10:39am
...when using multiple balls? I have to ask that, because your report contradicts the ones I read after the recent European Championship where the same Nittaku Premium 40+ were used. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 11:04am
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Mastermind, you really have severe tunnel vision. Does Baal's report have to be exactly the same as that of the pros? And for all we know, you mabe lying about the durability issues. You would usually link to them with glee. I gave my report that I broke a ball. It doesn't mean I and Baal's experiences have to be the same. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 11:09am
What nonsense! Can only imagine this same logic applied to all other sports such as baseball, football having 5 different balls that curve differently in flight and each home team used whatever ball best suited there players. The reality is that the sport with 6 different balls being legal is no longer a competitive universal sport instead breaking up into various segments that have competitive events focused on various ball types. Can only imagine the bickering at international events such as Olympic's and world championships about what ball to use. The new normal for Ping Pong.
|
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 11:22am
You are welcome, here we go. Sabine Winter, World Rank 101, on her personal experience with the plastic Nittakku Premium at the recent European Championship (in German, http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/blog/5209/sabines-blog--in-lissabon-eine-gute-woche-gehabt" rel="nofollow - http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/blog/5209/sabines-blog--in-lissabon-eine-gute-woche-gehabt ):
In short, once she and her partner managed to break 4 Nittaku Premium 40+ balls within 15 minutes just at the beginning of warming up. Note that this site is not known for criticizing plastic balls, therefore my guess is that this could be a sign of change of the plastic policy. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 11:35am
I haven't made a decision as to their durability. That is pretty obvious from what I wrote. I said we didn't break one. I mostly used one last night. Guys on the next table used another one the entire rest of the night. Of course I expect balls to last beyond a full night. My reports as to the durability of, for example, XSF balls, I assure you, are more accurate than anything you may have "heard" somewhere. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 11:39am
But of course, if we read the whole thing, we get a different impression, not just your cherrypicked version of it.
In other words, the experience was *inconsistent*. Because if they had gotten just 12 balls for the team, they would have broken them all in 1 hour. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 11:47am
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And there was no control group. How many celluloid balls would break in that time for players at that level? I would say the verdict is out on the durability of the Nittaku Premium balls. (By contrast, I have decades of experience with how long balls usually last when I play with them). Personally I will be surprised if they are anywhere near as durable as XSF. But I just don't know yet. And yes, Mastermind was certainly exaggerating earlier when he wrote that the Nittaku Premium balls had developed a "bad reputation". Those few lines he quoted that did not accurately reflect the entire picture with these balls even from this person's experience, and more importantly we have not heard from anyone else. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 11:47am
I just posted what was was published on a well known German site and gave the link to the original too, not what I "heard somewhere". |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 11:48am
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OK. We have heard you. Again. What you read on the German site was that a XSF ball broke. You suggested they might even be dangerous!!!!! It turns out, however, that XSF balls are highly durable. You really have no credibility because you are not objective on this subject. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:02pm
They got 12 balls for the team at the beginning, as she wrote. My guess would be that the organizers urgently made it 120 or 1200 facing the unprecedented short life of that ball. But even if it were just 2 balls in 15 minutes on average, it would make 16 balls per 2 hours session, which makes 8 balls per one player at 24$ costs per session. People playing 3 times a week would have to pay about 3.000$ a year just for balls. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:06pm
It was the author of the comment who suggested that. I gave the link and you read the original. Besides, I do not understand, why we should change the topic now. The topic is "Nittaku Premium 40+ balls (Japan)", not how dangerous the XSF balls are or not. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:08pm
And that is the fundamental problem. "On average". We don't know from that if this was the normal behavior of the ball. It was a single isolated report from one person over a short period of time. We don't really have an average. Then you start "guessing". But your guesses are nonsense because at present the Nittaku Premium is in very short supply. You don't know how many balls the organizers had, and made up a number that is not what the player actually quoted. We will know if there is a durability problem before long. We don't know how accurate these numbers are. You are grasping at straws for the moment. Stay tuned. Maybe I will come back before long and tell you there is a big durability problem with these Nittaku Balls. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:13pm
I know. I started the topic. And you most certainly did write comments about how can people be expected to use such dangerous stuff as the XSF. This part of this thread is now about YOU. You seem to take even the slightest positive comment about any plastic ball as an offense and a provocation, and like I said, you have zero objectivity (as evidenced by your pretty ridiculous comments about the XSF ball breakage some time back). Well, these balls are here, and some people want to know about them even if it makes you sad. One other thing that maybe someone who was there can tell me..... Was the Nittaku ball used at the European Championships that Nittaku Premium or the Nittaku SHA? They are both "new balls". |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:15pm
You do not need to fight me. I am not Sabine Winter. If you do not believe her, you can address her on the German Forum at tt-news or on her blog. I quoted her and gave the original link. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:18pm
Yes you quoted her. A single quote does not establish a "reputation" for a product--the word you used on a different thread-- especially when you don't provide the whole quote. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:21pm
Again, I quoted the original and gave the link. Then I commented on that as people usually do on this forum. By the way, there was another comment recently on the same German forum on XSF ball bursting dangerously in fast flying peaces when hitting something hard. But let us put it aside and stick to the actual topic here, please. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:26pm
When talking about reputation for Nittaku Premium 40+ balls I actually meant the impression of users on tt-news forum who commented on the finals they watched, where according to them an unusual number of balls got broken. The Sabine Winter report was published later and is just another confirmation. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:34pm
Bursting dangerously!!!!!!! Yeah, right.  In a sport in which we play using eye-sized projectiles moving at high speed. You have pretty much done it to yourself this time.Since very little of what you say about 40+ balls is based on your own experience I think people here can ignore it safely (especially since you are extremely selective about what you decide to quote). Since your only posts here are to complain about these balls almost reflexively suggests people can ignore you completely. I mean really, don't you have an opinion on anything else, like who has a good backhand or something? Isn't there something on some other subject you can translate from a German website? Or at least something substantive about your experience with these balls? Igorponger has played a lot with DHS 40+ balls and likes them. They are among my least favorite but at least he defends his position based on actual experience playing with them and makes no secret about the fact that he likes the price and they suit his style. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:46pm
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Summary of comments before this little back and forth. 1. The Nittaku Premium 40+ (not the same as the Nittaku SHA 40+) plays more like celluloid than any other plastic ball I have tested (and that is a very large number). It is a bit lighter than the others but is still large and has less speed and spin than celluloid. It is very round. It has a bounce height identical to celluloid. I feels more solid than XSF but both are good. I am starting to have the slight impression that Nittaku Premium retains slightly more spin off the bounce than seamless balls. It is much easier to play with than other seamed balls. 2. I don't know about its durability yet. The outside wears more than a XSF (seamless) ball. 3. It is very expensive and once again, vendors including Iruiru are back ordered. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 12:57pm
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My apologies for driving the back and forth. 1. The player I played with when I used the ball is now about 2100 and was once as high as 2400 when he was younger. 2. He immediately liked the Nittaku Ball. We played with it for quite a while. I promised to give it to him and went on to another table to use another ball. 3. When the ball was brought to me cracked, I was disappointed. I stilled played with it without my opponent (a 1400-1600 unrated player) noticing. But eventually, it became more noticeable and he complained. I gave him the ball I was using at my table. The main reason why I don't discuss the balls more extensively (even if some people think I have) is that I still play too many celluloid events. Because most people in my area are looking at the NA Teams, the Joola ball is the one that gets attention (since the DHS ball is the same, I don't really distinguish between them). The Nittaku Ball will get attention in December with the Nationals coming up. Almost no one at my club uses the seamless ball or the XSF ball because they don't investigate it. To test the ball, usually, I go to a table and just toss a ball and I play with a pips player and a looper without telling them what ball we are using and play a match. Based on how much we miss or adjust our shots, I can tell whether the ball feels good or not. The XSF ball is the only ball I haven't broken. The Nittaku ball led to the most similar and highest level of play vs. celluloid, though it favored me more because I block more than my opponent does and my opponent relies on his serves more than I do. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 1:01pm
Just read the prospectus ( http://www.ettu.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/2014-ETC-LISBON-PROSPECTUS-final1.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.ettu.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/2014-ETC-LISBON-PROSPECTUS-final1.pdf ): Balls: NITTAKU PREMIUM (white plastic with seam) |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 1:04pm
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Definitely the Premium, yes. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: TSuBaSa
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 1:45pm
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Just played with premium nittaku and yes that ball is premium. It's hard to see the seam. It's hard, round, not that big, feels hard, bounce is very similar to celluloid balls. Just a little bit less spinny but it's the best 40+ ball by far. It's a shame that ball is expensive... ------------- Nittaku Tenaly Acoustic Inner Carbon Joola Rhyzer Pro 50 & 45 |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 7:16pm
Baal, do you have an estimate yet on how long the Poly Balls play new ? The Cell balls played new for 3-5 hours in my estimation. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 11:22pm
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XSF balls usually exceed useful lifetime of celluloid. When they do break there will be no doubt about it because they fracture completely, often during a point. I have one in my bag that was used hard for 12 hr and that you might still want to use, and like you, I generally relegated celluloid balls to serving practice at 3-7 hr (see below about conditions at my club). The surface of XSF in particular is pretty durable. There is no reason at all to worry about these balls based on durability. Seamed Chinese polyballs, I had a lot of them break quite quickly. My first 6-box of Joola 40+ lasted about 4 days. All of the ones I have tried from various companies were made in June. There is a widespread concern about durability. I can't personally say whether the DF versions are better than DH versions or not in terms of durability. Some people think they play better. I have not yet broken a Nittaku Premium but it is too soon for me to say much about durability. I have noticed that the outer surface picks up mars much more easily than XSF. But they definitely have a nice feel to play with. Based on appearance of outer surface after a few hours of play, my guess is that durability will not be a strength of the Nittaku Premium. I play at clubs with red Gerflor-like flooring which tends to increase ball lifetime, and the place I play the most has a dark green colored tarp nailed to the walls to improve visibility, but which also keeps the balls from hitting such a hard surface. On the other hand, I also play with some people who hit really hard and some of the balls have been used by 2500 players. |
Posted By: rick_ys_ho
Date Posted: 10/19/2014 at 5:42am
It seems that the ongoing women world cup is using DHS balls. 
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Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 10/19/2014 at 2:47pm
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My very best compliments to DHS chemical staff. The quality of plastic material has notably progressed by now. NO breackage of DHS40+ happened all along the matches of the recent Women's Cup The newest batch of DHS plastic of September2014 proved to have the best durability and happy improvement of the ball ballistics. THe DHS balls to celebrate are marked with production code XJAD |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 10/19/2014 at 3:36pm
The new normal in TT, another new poly ball production batch described as better then the last overcoming the many reported shortcomings and generating hope in the TT.......
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/19/2014 at 5:16pm
That is good news about DHS. Hopefully the bounce in the XJAD batch is improved also because the balls from XFAD had a very low and somewhat inconsistent bounce. It would not surprise me if the low bounce and the high break rate from those production runs are related, so I am looking forward to getting a chance to try some of the more recent ones. I have been anticipating that they would improve (because there was only one direction for them to go). An update about the Nittaku Premium balls. We still haven't broken one. I would estimate so far that their durability is similar to Nittaku Premium celluloid balls (bearing in mind that durability was never the chief selling point of Nittaku, it was roundness and quality play). I find that they wear in a quite similar way, as the external face of the ball tends to get shiny with use. The Nittaku Premium 40+ is a great feeling ball to play with but I wish they were cheaper. Hopefully when there are more of them to be had the price will come down. Also, if DHS can get their balls to the same standard of play, then Nittaku may be forced to lower price. I don't care who makes the balls I use, I just want good ones, and more companies making good balls means lower prices. |
Posted By: dmras
Date Posted: 10/19/2014 at 6:29pm
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For the first time we played tournament using plastic balls. We got 6
DHS***, 3 Donic*** and 3 Nittaku *** Premium. Impressions: DHS very
bad, 5 of 6 were cracked during few minutes, Donic and Nittaku survived
whole tournament, Donic was good but somehow "dumb" as players felt,
Nittaku is the best very much like celluloid.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/19/2014 at 6:49pm
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The Nittaku balls play excellently. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/19/2014 at 8:00pm
Donic is made in DHS factory but each brand may have different standards for which ones they decide to sell or not sell with the stamp of their brand. That is described here: http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/Plastic_Balls_Q_A.pdf dmras, I have a question for you. Somewhere on the box of the balls, if you still have them, there is a four-letter code. The last two letters will be AD. This code refers to the date of manufacture. X means zero, and ther first two letters are the month, the next two are year. So June of 2014 would be XFAD, July would be XGAD, etc. This code is pressed into the box and is not always easy to see, or it may be by the bar code. I am wondering if the Donic balls were of more recent manufacture than the DHS ones you had for your tournament? What I am trying to figure out is if the balls coming out of the DHS factory are improving as time goes on. Also, how was bounce of Donic 40+ compared to Nittaku Premium? All of the balls I have seen from that factory or from Double Fish bounce quite low compared to celluloid, Nittaku Premium, or XSF. I don't personally like that, although it bothers me less than it used to. |
Posted By: dmras
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 1:55am
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Sorry, I didn"t keep boxes. As for bounce I can check it as I still have 1 Donic and 2 Nittaku balls. |
Posted By: dmras
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 2:00am
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Just checked - both have the same bounce. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 2:05am
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Are you using Nittaku Premium or Nittaku SHA? ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: dmras
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 6:47am
Sorry, used to call it premium, of course SHA. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 8:03am
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I see. OK. In a few months when the Premiums are more generally available, try those. You will like them even better! |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 11:21am
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This freakin' ball cost me a shot at winning an unsanctioned tourney last weekend... I was surprised they insisted on using it (I only did drills with it before, not playing matches). A bunch of weird bounces killed my momentum (I was doing just so-so until the semis...alas). Also, the ball bounces too low on most shots as usual. Worse than 1-star Gambler celluloid. ------------- Current USATT Rating: 2181 Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 1:08pm
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SHA or Premium? |
Posted By: Mickael
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 4:14pm
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I tried nittaku premium today, they bounce higher and faster than any celluloid I tried. Very difficult to get used to from the first day. ------------- Butterfly Fransizka ZLC FL Butterfly Dignics 05 2.1 FH Butterfly Tenergy 05 1.9 BH |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 5:33pm
SHA. Up 1-0, 10-9 in 2nd set in the semis... My opponent went for a monster fh hook loop. The freakin' ball bounced STRAIGHT instead of curved and I missed the whole ball... WTF? In another instance, I made a super heavy chop...He misjudged the spin trying to push it back...The ball flew straight out of the table at me due to heavy spin. Then the ball decided to suddenly drop and hit the end line... Double WTF!!! Some piece of plastic $#!+ ball...  ------------- Current USATT Rating: 2181 Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 6:21pm
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Yes, I also find that the Nittaku SHA, as with all of the Chinese seamed balls, has inconsistent bounce behavior. It's why I don't like them (plus breakage). Until I see one that doesn't suck, I am going to assume that they all do. I still hope they will get better soon. This is not a problem with XSF or with Nittaku 40+ Premium -- the one made in Japan, not the one you used at your tournament. These are very predictable in what they do. XSF feels a little softer and ball flight seems like it might be slightly larger, but it is no problem at all to switch from one to the other. I find it odd though that Michael finds the Nittaku Premiums to be faster! They are not heavier and are a bit larger in diameter than celluloid and I find the bounce height to be within the range that you get for different brands of celluloid ball. A lot higher than seamed Chinese 40+ though. |
Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 6:51pm
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Although I'm not as good as you guys, this past week started playing with the plastic ones a lot more. My club got a box of the Nittaku SHA 40+ a while back and I've pretty much avoided them entirely. There were three times in one match where upon going to shove the ball off the bounce, It bounced up completely over my racket. I was pretty dumbfounded. Something that seemed noticeably easier in just back an forth was blocking/hitting the heavier slower loops. I know compared to 38 you don't have to respect the ball much as it is, but I literally had zero respect for the spin on the ball and put it back a little too easily wherever I wanted after getting used to just the way it bounce. One other weird part to me is the feel- when the ball is on my racket I didn't feel the spin take as much as usual. It was sort of muted. I also had a heck of a time returning serve, and anticipating the bounce as I'm used to led to me whiffing balls entirely. Sometimes it sits up when you expect it to shoot out, and sometimes it doesn't come up when you expect it to. I don't understand it.
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Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 6:58pm
wait until you play a pips player...  -------------  Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 12:49pm
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I am starting to suspect that Nittaku is having some issues with production in Japan since once again their Premium ball is back-ordered everywhere, including tt-japan and iruiru, where I got my original supply. I tried to get more because I like them and will have to wait. They can't tell me when they will get more. The SHA version (made by DHS in China) is still available everywhere (but it's not a particularly good ball). |
Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 1:34pm
One reason, is no one wants to use the other crappy versions out there, including me. Like you said, it's the only seamed ball that is following regulations, doesn't play like crap, and doesn't break after 1 minute. Nittaku Japan probably didn't foresee their competitors failing so badly. Resulting in wealthy people buying/preordering 1000 NP balls at once. If I was young and hungry again, I would have ordered a 1000 to sell on ebay.
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Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 8:36pm
I guess http://www.houstontabletennis.org/events.shtm" rel="nofollow - this is your club, it matches your description given previously on this thread. Could you please explain, why the Nittaku SHA was used at http://www.houstontabletennis.org/forms/2014_HTTA_Fall%20Challenge_Tournament.pdf" rel="nofollow - your tournament 3 days ago? |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 9:40pm
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Yes. That is my club. That was our tournament. It was a success. And yes, I hate seamed Chinese balls. Now, as to your questions: First, it is the type of ball being used at the majority of upcoming national tournaments in the US this season so it makes sense to you use it in our local events that are tune-ups for those important events. That is true even if I don't happen to like those kind of balls. Why should our players be at a disadvantage when they are training hard for these events? Second, the Nittaku Premium 3* balls from Japan, which would have been more to my tastes, are not available in sufficient supply for a tournament. (we will see if they solve the supply problems in time for US Nationals). So even if we had wanted to use them, it would not have been possible. Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly of all, I really don't care what you think. |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 9:55pm
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I have used the Joola and Double Fish poly balls and like them both. They are also cheaper and very durable. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:48pm
I have just gone through the first 10 4-star events listed on http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/Events" rel="nofollow - http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/Events . For 3 of them there is no information. As for the other 7 ones, the balls used are: WESTCHESTER 2014 OCTOBER OPEN: JOOLA Premium 3 - star 40 mm balls SOUTH SHORE SPORTS BUTTERFLY OPEN: not specified 2014 JOOLA NORTH AMERICAN TEAMS: JOOLA white Super P Poly 40+ balls. BUTTERFLY THANKSGIVING TEAM CHAMPIONSHIPS: balls (orange) [orange can only be celluloid] TRIANGLE 4 STAR DECEMBER OPEN: white Butterfly celluloid 40mm 3-Star Premium 2015 BUTTERFLY AURORA CUP: 40 mm white 3-star Butterfly ball 2015 ARNOLD TABLE TENNIS CHALLENGE: white Butterfly celluloid So, only 1 plastic at 7 tournaments. Does not look like majority to me. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:58pm
The national tournament is the 5 star US National, which is using the Nittaku Premium Plastic. Some events also use the plastic ball for the highest groups and the celluloid for lower groups (Westchester does, and my guess is that once the Butterfly plastic is available, the butterfly tournaments will follow). The main reason why the Butterfly events do not use the plastic ball is that no butterfly ball is widely available yet. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:06pm
No. I quoted exactly "JOOLA Premium 3 - star 40 mm balls", no exception there. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:21pm
Mastermind, It's one thing to believe everything you read on the internet. It's another to question a seasoned tournament player in the USA who has actually plays in these events and for a couple of years has been in the top 20 most busy players in the USA (my arthritis has made it harder for me to keep up). The bottom line is that I know what happens first hand- you parrot what other people write. If you want, you can go to Westchestertabletennis.com and see their videos for the Open section and confirm that their last *Open* event used the Polyball, even though it wasn't listed as the tournament ball in whatever site you looked at. I could provide the video, but that would just be going over the top for someone with a brain as parochial as yours. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:22pm
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Perhaps I should have written the majority of upcoming national tournaments that most members of our club will attend, which in this case means the nationals and national teams. And I need to emphasize, "Mastermind", that I still don't care that you are outraged that we used a 40+ ball for our tournament. It is not something that requires defending. (Also, we still haven't managed to break a Nittaku Premium 40+). |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:41pm
I quoted what the ORGANIZERS http://www.westchestertabletennis.com/pics/pdf/Westchester2014Oct.pdf" rel="nofollow - wrote , not just "other people". So, it is your word against theirs. I trust them more on that. Others may decide for themselves. But you've got the main idea, I guess. For the time being it does not look like majority of tournaments use plastic. It is just a tiny minority. By the way, the fact that there are no Butterfly plastic balls to buy 4 months after they registered them at the ITTF might well be a sign that they know something what we do not know. Since they do not have their own production it would have been very easy to put a stamp on the DHS product like others do. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:45pm
I neither said I was outraged nor did I express outrage. Let's keep it correct. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:56pm
You can trust them more and be a fool for it. My point is that when I say something, I have more than enough credibility since I have played at Westchester on multiple occasions and have clubmates who go there every month. You have never been to Westchester. For about 2 or so weeks before the formal announcement, I had been informed by friends who received emails that the NA Teams, which originally was going to use orange Joola Premium, was switching to Plastic. Even after the email announcement, they failed to change this on their website for a while. Stop being an idiot. Don't pretend to know more about US table tennis than people who actually participate in it. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 12:00am
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Again, since the point was raised by our resident plastic ball troll based on something he read on the internet.... Our experience now is that the Nittaku Premium 40+ ball made in Japan has quite good durability, more or less comparable to celluloid balls. This along with the excellent playing properties makes it the best plastic ball any of us have tried (and it bloody well ought to be for the price). The durability is a good thing because my supply is small, they are back ordered seemingly indefinitely, and everybody wants to use them instead of the other plastic balls. After spending some time with this good Nittaku ball, the XSF ball feels softer and a bit slower. However, XSF is still a better choice than a Chinese seamed ball. |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 12:01am
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Being on the Westchester email list, I can confirm that they used the Poly ball for the open event in September. Here is the relevant part of the email:
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Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 12:12am
Even in that case it would be 1 out of 14 participants, which is a tiny minority again, or a little bit more if someone plays both in this event and 1 or two others. |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 12:17am
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That was for September. As stated in that email, they will be using it for more and more events over the next few months. Unless they changed their minds, I have to assume that at minimum the Open event in October will again use the plastic ball and quite possibly other events as well. Whether we like it or not, tournaments will slowly switch to the plastic ball.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 12:26am
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So really, "MM" what exactly is your F*********NG point? Yes, there are some tournaments that will stick with celluloid for now, but others here in the US have already used plastic and that is becoming a trend in my part of the US. This state has a geographical area greater than Germany which means that most people here mostly play tournaments in state. In the upcoming months ahead, it is quite likely that in other places people will be competing with plastic balls. And some people who haven't tried them are just curious. They want to know what these balls are like, maybe don't want to buy them. So much of what you have written about plastic balls is demonstrably biased (and sometimes full of crap) and it reveals an almost single minded obsession. And yes, just repeating something you saw somewhere on a website can still be full of crap even if you didn't originate the crap. Look, I didn't like that ITTF pushed this through. Now I am trying my best to give objective information about these balls based on personal experience with these balls (and decades of playing) supplemented by experiences of clubmates, one of whom was once ranked in the top 100 in the world. |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 7:36am
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Westchester has switched completely over to the plastic ball. They sent out an email regarding the October tournament and this was included: Plastic Balls All events this weekend will use the new plastic, white, 3-star JOOLA balls.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 9:09am
Where is it on their website?  ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 9:52am
It doesn't look like they posted it on the website yet. If you're going to their events, it might be a good idea to sign up for their email list. They used to have a signup sheet at the front desk - I'm not sure if they still do as I haven't been there in quite a while. I have to assume you can contact them to get added.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 9:55am
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Oh no hookumsnivy. Something can only be true if you can find it some place on the internet. Then it has to be true no matter how implausible. All deep thinkers know that! |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 10:06am
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I think Baal is doing a great job in terms of keeping us informed about the new balls as well as reviewing the best ones so we don't waste money on buying crap. I don't know why that dude is on your case, Baal. Thanks for the reviews. Keep them coming. ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 10:31am
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Back on topic. It looks like Nittaku stopped producing their premium 40+ plastic, since one can not order them. What could be the reason for that? |