What defines an allround style?
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Topic: What defines an allround style?
Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Subject: What defines an allround style?
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 2:11pm
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What defines an allround style? How can we recognize or distinguish it from being either a type of defensive style or offensive style? Does the use of specific equipment dictate the play style? Do all allround players only use inverted rubber and play like Mikael Appelgren? If one were to use short pips mixing offensive hits and defensive chops can this be considered allround? Other styles are more obvious. Offensive players attack and defensive players chop. Within each of both of those categories there are subcategories such as how Koji Matsushita is closer to a classical defensive style and Joo Saehyuk is closer to a modern defensive style. Ma Long is a power looper offensive style and Vladimir Samsonov is a controlled offensive style and so on. Do these categories exist for the allround style? On an even more extreme perspective, does the allround style even exist at all or are we all just playing as some type of defensive or offensive style? This isn't something discussed as often as I think it should be. What do you all think? ------------- Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
Replies:
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 3:06pm
This style player uses a more mild approach to gaining points with a mix of offensive and defensive strategy. Usually this style is found at beginner and intermediate levels where safety and keeping the ball in play is important. Not usually seen at top levels except for chopper/loopers, even then I wouldn't say that is a quasi allround style but has some elements of an allround game. These players would rather push or chop a ball back than try to loop or fast drive the ball. They usually wait for the right ball to attack and do not take as many chances to end the point. They rely more on spin variation than speed or power. This style usually plays close/mid with the occasional back court medium speed loop or lobb. Just my 2 cents.  ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 3:10pm
What about Mikael Appelgren? He's often the go to player when referring to an allround style and Donic has allround blades named after him because of that. He plays a mid to long distance game. ------------- Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
frogger wrote:
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 3:29pm
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Appelgren was an away from table double wing looper. You must remember also that was back in the speed glue era when medium speed blades and max thickness speed glued rubber where the weapon of choice for Appelgren's style. Allround style like I said is rare at that level but some elements can be seen. ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 3:42pm
Ok I can see what you are saying. Would you go so far as saying an allround style means you're just not good enough for one specific style? ------------- Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 3:45pm
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Great topic, a really interesting question. No, I don't think it really exists at highest levels of the game now, but I suppose it could mean guys who often end up defending without chopping--- perhaps Appelgren and Mitzutani, or even Michael Maze. But I still think of those guys as basically offensive players. You could think of certain types of offensive players who have a ton of different ways of killing you from either side, like Waldner, Persson, ZJK (and others) but at the end of the day, those guys are clearly winning most of their points on attack. Same with guys like Oh Sang Eun and Samsonov. So if someone has another idea of what an elite all- around player is, please suggest one. Maybe I am forgetting people. Maybe Andrej Grubba? Never saw him chop though. Maybe you have to go back a lot farther in time. |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 4:10pm
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someone who is equally comfortable defending and attacking??? i normally defines it by the equipment they use  ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 4:11pm
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Baal, what makes you discount chopping from an allround style over using lobs. What about Stephane Ouiache? He has all of those characteristics of Appelgren, Maze etc but still he incorporates chopping with his lobs and topspins. Take a look.
------------- Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 4:12pm
What equipment would that be? ------------- Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 4:17pm
its a joke… like someone who uses all speed blade and rubbers! ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 5:15pm
Nice. I hadn't seen him before. But yes, definitely that's what I would call all-around. Fun to watch. Thanks for posting. Not too many like him out there. |
Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 5:50pm
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Basic styles are: Looping Hitting Blocking Chopping (underspin defense) Fishing/Lobbing (topspin defense) It is actually a little more complicated since a player has two wings and there can be a separate style for each wing. So you get things like 2-wing looper 1-wing looper/1-wing blocker 1-wing looper/1-wing chopper (modern defender who does not chop much with Fh) To me an all-around player is one who regularly uses a mix of these styles in a match without being forced to do so. For example they sometimes might respond to long serves by looping and other times by backing off and chopping. Or sometimes they might choose to let their opponent open and try to block them down while other times they would let them open, but retreat early and immediately start fishing. Equipment does play a role. It is difficult to be an all-around player with long pips (and maybe with medium pips). They do not have the versatility in spin generation needed to play a full range of shots. Of course if one was adept at attacking with the pips then they could play something close to an all-around game even though they are unable to hit some of the shots possible with inverted rubber. Mark |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 6:18pm
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At the top level, all the players are all round attackers. The closest to an allround style is Mizutani, who steps back to fish and lob sometimes without being forced into it per se. At the top level, the problem with chopping or defensive play in general is that it is too easy to drive through and hands over the initiative to your opponent. To use it as a consistent weapon, your opponent has to have serious issues dealing with your play, which does happen on occasion, but the lack of control of the point doesn't encourage most good attackers (who are control freaks) to play that way.------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 6:33pm
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Agree at the top levels most players are "allround attackers". The term "allround" in this sense means a balance between between attack and defense or "safer" play especially at lower levels. Just because a player uses an "allround" style does not mean they can't win. Perhaps that is the style they have the most comfort level with. I have lost key matches to players of this style, due to mistiming issues or reading the wrong spin. I don't see this style as a weakness just different. ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/03/2014 at 10:36pm
Yes, that's what I think too, he is kind of the modern version of Appelgren, although maybe a few exceptions. Kim Taek Soo or Ryu Seung-min are fairly uni-dimensional but great at what they do. And the French guy Gen Spec posted above seems pretty interesting. Maybe also the Argentinan guy from a few years back, Liu Song. |
Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 12:42am
I agree with this. However, this would mean that there is no set definition on how an allround player should play. Since every person is different, one "allrounder" might prefer lobbing, another might prefer blocking, and another prefers chopping. I say that as long as they play all of those strokes at some point they would fall under this vague category of allrounder. Though because there is so much variation of preferences there is nothing to dictate how these players would respond to a ball in identical situations. Is this agreeable? ------------- Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
Posted By: right2niru
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 1:16am
I would not categorize this style of play being just at "beginner and intermediate levels " precisely because i would think even Waldner was playing this kind of style ... he wasn't like loop killing all the balls but performed varied strokes (offensive / defensive ) with his superior ball control . ------------- ZJK SZLC |5Q+ |
Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 6:27am
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I think Secretin was the typical allround player. Liang Ge Liang also and then Appelgren. Today, Mattenet and Mizutani, even if they don't use the chop in their game are some kind of allround player. Sometimes, Tan Riwu also because he switches from chopping to attacking frequently in the same match. Allround means for me that your game is based on control instead of speed, you try to reduce the "risk" but you have all the strokes in your game which means you can adapt to your opponent. Of course, your defense is not as strong as the one from JOO and your attack not as good as the one from Ma Long but your opponent will perhaps have a hard time to adapt because of the rythm of your strokes (spin, speed, length, high...). That's true you mostly find that kind of player in the intermediate levels but sometimes, even really good players struggles when facing one of them ------------- Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm |
Posted By: mahomedy13
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 8:04am
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I classify allround as being a control sort of player,that utilizes offensive and defensive in the game.Eg.I would say that instead of calling Mizutani offensive,he is allround. Allround doesnt mean palying all shot(chops,lobs,loops etc),it just means using a few shots but at your own given time,not when forced.
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Posted By: vutiendat1337
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 1:22pm
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Zhang Jike and Fan Zhendong come to mind as very all-round and complete players. They can attack on both wings, FH or BH, short game, over the table or mid-distance, counter-loop or block, with good placement yet powerful shots. In my mind, I consider them to have the capacity to win a point utilizing any of the techniques above with the same or similar probability of success. Dima can also be considered an all-round player. Joo See Hyuk is an "all-round" player in his own right. As a modern defender, he can attack, can defend, good FH loop and superior chops. Can score points either way. Ma Long, unless firing with his FH and placing well, can't win a point (generalizing here), relatively weak BH and not a strong blocker. Timo Boll, unless positioning himself well and hitting his spinny loops and placing the ball well both short-game or mid-distance, can't win a point. If he has to play defensively - blocking or lobbing, he's done for. Considerably weak BH, he can only open and hit a good counter once in a while but that's about it. Mizutani, not a complete player, poor short game, virtually no over the table BH or mid-distance (although he's been improving upon that, still miles to go), ok counter-looping FH, strong lobbing skills. definitely more on the defensive side of offensive players. ------------- bty petr korbel st fh: donic bluefire red bh: dawei iqul black USATT:1811 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40320&title=feedbackvutiendat1337" rel="nofollow - Feedback me |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 1:24pm
This is a bunch of nonsense. Ma Long actually plays a more all round game in terms of stroke variety than the others - Ma Long can block for significant portions of a match on both sides when in the mood. But other than Mizutani, none of the players will lob as a point winning strategy. They all have excellent short and over the table games. The problem is that none of them like to be at the mercy of their opponents so they don't play defense to win points as a strategy (with Mizutani as the exception). ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 1:38pm
I agree.  ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: vutiendat1337
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 1:44pm
Let me clarify what I mean. Yes, technically Ma Long is very all-round and close to a complete player, but when talking about winning points, his strength is not blocking, his strength is not BH to BH rallies, his style is not "all-round", at least the way I understand it. While FZD and ZJK can win the point doing whatever and they do so. I guess the way I understand all-round is for a player to being to utilize all techniques with the similar skill and success. I hope it makes sense. ------------- bty petr korbel st fh: donic bluefire red bh: dawei iqul black USATT:1811 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40320&title=feedbackvutiendat1337" rel="nofollow - Feedback me |
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 1:44pm
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Boll, Ma Long, Mitzutani not complete players? They are wizards at every shot in the game! The gold standard! My idols! :) I don't usually sniff my glue but when I do I always get it on my lip. ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 2:02pm
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When I hear allround style, I think of a player that will mix it up a bit and win more points with control and placement rather than relying heavily on power. To me, Waldner played an allround style. That's not to say he wouldn't go for the kill, but he won a ton of points with placement and touch. Whereas a lot of players impose their will using power, he imposed his will using placement.
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Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 6:59pm
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Of the still active players, the best examples of modern allround game are probably: - Samsonov who does an aweful lot with pace and spin variation of pushes and blocks - Stephane Ouaiche (video above) who does a little bit of everything - Simon Gauzy has his moments ILya ------------- BTY Mazunov ST Dignics 05 |
Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 7:26pm
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To me an all round player is one who doesn't display obvious dominance in either an attack or defence style... Not necessarily if they can do all of the standard strokes... Ma long does chop, but he's not a defender and the Joo See Hyuk attack is menacing when he lets loose... But we would all describe their styles as Attacker and Defender, respectively due to their dominant style... ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: JacekGM
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 8:42pm
An All Round does a little bit of everything well, does not stick to aggressive shots or defensive shots all the time. He/she finds beauty and attraction in variety, and adapts easily to testing circumstances due to the ability to do the diverse shots needed. Should not be thought of as "well rounded player" .------------- (1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 11:04pm
OK. Nicely put. Now, besides the French guy posted above, who can you name who plays like this at an international level? |
Posted By: Lestat
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 11:06pm
| Frogger got it right in post #2. That is not to say I don't appreciate the other posts too, for their comedic value. Up until Stephane Quaiche, I've never seen a ranked allround player. |
Posted By: dannyreventon
Date Posted: 12/04/2014 at 11:14pm
Ma long chop block, please. Also, his bh is on par with zjk. ------------- Main Setup: Timo Boll Spirit FH: Neo H3 Prov 39deg BH: Xiom Musa Stiga Clipper Wood FH: Neo Skyline 3 BH: Stiga Neos Sound ST Avenger 5 FH: Neo H3 Bh: Xiom Musa |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 12/05/2014 at 9:25am
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I think a lot of people equate the lack of power to the all around game... ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |