benefits and uses of a high toss?
Printed From: Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET
Category: Coaching & Tips
Forum Name: Coaching & Tips
Forum Description: Learn more about TT from the experts. Feel free to share your knowledge & experience.
Moderator: yogi_bear
Assistant Moderators: APW46, smackman
URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69837
Printed Date: 04/28/2024 at 3:08pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: benefits and uses of a high toss?
Posted By: pingponger
Subject: benefits and uses of a high toss?
Date Posted: 01/08/2015 at 5:00pm
|
What benefits does a high toss offer, and what types of serve is it useful for? I've seen players like Xiaona Shan toss the ball as high as possible, but I'm not sure if it helps a short/medium serve, which is often the case with her. In any case it's nice to watch. |
Replies:
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/08/2015 at 5:02pm
|
Larry Hodges blog has info on this.
Search at
tabletenniscoaching.com/blog
A copy at paddle palace.
http://blog.paddlepalace.com/2013/04/coaching-tip-the-decline-of-the-high-toss-serve-and-why-you-should-learn-it/" rel="nofollow - http://blog.paddlepalace.com/2013/04/coaching-tip-the-decline-of-the-high-toss-serve-and-why-you-should-learn-it/ ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Fehrplay
Date Posted: 01/08/2015 at 8:32pm
I use a high toss to first of all get more spin because the ball hits the rubber with more power. I also use it because many people as myself can be a little disturbed when we play against someone with a high toss, I think it's harder to se what spin it is on the ball  I also think it's looks good but thats just a plus 
|
Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 01/08/2015 at 8:39pm
| It messes with the timing/anticipation of the receiver when you mix it in. In my opinion anyway. |
Posted By: FlatHitter
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 11:14am
|
I shortened the toss on my serves after a year of tournaments, it works great at my training center, great when i practice serves...but the lighting and windows and everything else that is in view at the tournaments makes it hard to see the ball in the air, it was causing more problems than it was worth, my game is improved by not using it. ------------- If your phone is'nt ringing, it's probably me... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 11:20am
Neither more spin nor more speed is guaranteed. There is the potential for both with proper technique, but even the technique tends to be counterintuitive and not what most players who aren't coached can easily execute. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
fatt wrote:Posted By: pingponger
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 1:01pm
Thanks for the informative responses, I've been practicing tosses about a foot above my head. So far so good, I'll find out in this weekend's matches. 
|
Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 2:10pm
|
For those who want to try this serve, the key is the toss. That may sound obvious, but it's very difficult, and warrants a lot of practice. You need to get a VERY consistent toss; even a slight error will turn into a large deviation, and if the ball doesn't land where you think it will you won't have an effective serve. So work on getting a clean, precise high toss before you try to learn the actual motion. |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 7:57am
| I find that if you don't practice it a lot, you'll end up serving long as it requires a bit more touch to keep it short. When I see someone near my level, I always assume the ball is going to go long and get ready to loop. Of course when I used to take lessons, my coach told me to always be ready for the ball long and then adjust. |
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 10:31am
|
I will use a semi high toss serve now and then. The visual transition is difficult at times since I wear bifocal glasses. I am unable to wear contacts due to requirement to wear glasses to protect my one good eye. I am legally blind in one eye. I was in the Air force and flew kites. A high toss serve can mess up your opponents timing and misread of the spin. ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 11:26am
+1 i serve with my sp most of the time the high toss allows me to get more spin!!! also it looks cool!!! ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 2:21pm
|
I once watched Tong Fei Ming toss a ball consistently for an hour to within a foot of a 20 foot ceiling on a practice table at a tournament without hitting the ceiling once. Dedication for perfection.
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 3:30pm
Yep, I once watched her at a Women's British League match. She threw high most times (except for a dummy high throw) and every high throw was the same height and angle for her 3 matches. Yet, the ball landed short, long, BH, FH, you name it. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: Fehrplay
Date Posted: 01/11/2015 at 1:58pm
I think a high toss can be extremely rewarding with variation of really short toss. The opponent can never relax and it's hard to get good timing in the return. As always variation is the key! 
|
Posted By: Fehrplay
Date Posted: 01/11/2015 at 2:00pm
Haha yeah but some players sadly only seems to do it because it looks cool without any variaton or spin
 |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 01/11/2015 at 3:14pm
|
Part of the difficulty of the high toss serve is the quality of the toss, even the pros like ai sometimes have to move their body after the toss to serve... I find that I toss lower and lower as I get tired... Does anyone know the reason why the high toss serve is not a common practice on the Chinese team anymore ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 01/11/2015 at 3:20pm
|
It's still very common. Look at Xu Xin and Zhang Jike. They both high toss regularly in matches. |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 01/11/2015 at 5:01pm
|
I don't see how a high toss can result in more back spin unless the paddle is tilted such that the leading edge of the paddle is higher than the back edge. That would be a tricky serve to consistently. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 01/11/2015 at 5:21pm
Difficult and tricky, yes, but that's exactly how Schlager executes his high toss backspin serve, as he explains at the 4:20 mark of this video. ------------- USATT Rating: 1785 Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/11/2015 at 6:01pm
|
That is exactly what I meant by counterintuitive technique. Some people just repeat the more spin claim without realizing that contact points are also very different. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 01/12/2015 at 10:20am
At least from a sp perspective the increased force at contact allows the ball to dig into the sponge abit more thus generating a little bit more spin... I think this is the reason why the two two best players that only serves with thier sp (He Zhi Wen and Shan Xiaona) uses the high toss... ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 01/12/2015 at 7:50pm
The way Schlager makes a high toss with back spin is the only way to do it. How to do it is obvious. Its the execution and risk that is the problem. I don't see HZW making high toss back spin serves. Most of the time he is serving fast and at an angle. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/12/2015 at 11:09pm
It's how to get more spin, but there are many ways to execute using the same concept. Short pips players have different goals from loopers, but He Zhi Wen can serve short as well. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: DistantStar
Date Posted: 01/13/2015 at 12:41am
I'm going to take a guess here. Because it's hard to deceptively do no spin on a high toss. As stated before, to maximize spin with high toss, your leaving edge is higher and you are pretty much swinging UP. The racket angle is a dead give away as you cannot make a no spin serve look similar. Therefore they prefer deception of backspin/no spin combo over the raw back spin power of obvious backspin? Just a guess ------------- Nittaku Acoustic Xiom Sigma Euro 2.0 Tibhar Genius Sound 2.0 |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 01/13/2015 at 11:59am
|
I think dead ball serves work well and easily out of high toss. You really just have to open up the racket and convert the energy. Generally, it's easy to convert a high toss to topspin but very touchy to come UNDER the ball and around to convert it to backspin. Whenever I see a high toss at my level, I can almost always guess it will be topspin, even if the motion is fake backspin. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 01/13/2015 at 12:16pm
|
Not only blade angle but also location on the blade surface. A high toss serve that impacts the lower part of the rubber yields little or no spin with the same motion. Very effective in the arsenal. ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: DistantStar
Date Posted: 01/13/2015 at 6:01pm
I agree. Like I said, with high toss, your no spin and back spin will never look similar. And if you can only do ONE of the two punch combo, it become so much less effective. You have to get under the ball and REALLY brush to have back spin. That motion is already delicate, trying to do no spin on it is just so hard it's not worth it. On the otherhand, low toss is a lot easier for backspin/nospin. Especially with people like XX tossing ball side ways. It's super deceptive. ------------- Nittaku Acoustic Xiom Sigma Euro 2.0 Tibhar Genius Sound 2.0 |
Posted By: joshuadn11
Date Posted: 01/14/2015 at 6:36pm
|
high toss is so hard man...i can never get the timing right and my serve's spin is just so much weaker compare to low toss T.T ------------- Joshie de GoIden |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/14/2015 at 6:55pm
Then getting better at it will teach you a lot. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 01/14/2015 at 11:57pm
| Unfortunately I can't practice the high toss serve anymore. We changed how we set up the tables and now if I toss it a little high (not super high), I end up looking into the lights to see the ball. Everything else about the new setup is much better (and we can fit an extra table), so it's a compromise worth making |
Posted By: DistantStar
Date Posted: 01/15/2015 at 12:16pm
I had this problem, it feels like I'm swinging hard but produce no spin. It's because I was not confident with my swing timing!! So although I start the swing hard, I slow down the swing around contact to "wait" for the ball. YOU MAY NOT EVEN REALIZE you are doing this!!! it's very subconscious. Record a video and you'll see. ------------- Nittaku Acoustic Xiom Sigma Euro 2.0 Tibhar Genius Sound 2.0 |
Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 01/15/2015 at 12:48pm
|
That's a very good point, you have to wait a little longer than you think before starting your swing at the ball! |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 01/15/2015 at 12:57pm
i think moving the arm like mizutani or ma lin helps me time the serve! ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 01/15/2015 at 1:07pm
|
If you have a toss of consistent height you can use the arm movement to time the contact precisely, it's very helpful. |
Posted By: DistantStar
Date Posted: 01/15/2015 at 5:26pm
It *feels* you are timing with arm movement, but truth is, you are always timing with your eye and brain, which in turn cause your arm to subtle linger, move slower or faster. having identical motion and identical toss SO consistent that you have exact same timing window is impossible. If you can do that, you can do a blind high toss serve. Try it  ------------- Nittaku Acoustic Xiom Sigma Euro 2.0 Tibhar Genius Sound 2.0 |
Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 01/15/2015 at 10:36pm
|
That's a good point, but I meant that the arm movement was more to get a rough feel for the timing, of course the exact half-second of contact still varies. However, in terms of having a 2 second toss, the arm movements help you take up most of that time without getting antsy and starting contact too early. You're right about still having to contact at the right time, the arm movements just help make that easier! Also, I think some Chinese players could likely do all their serves, low and high, blind with a decent success rate. :D |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/15/2015 at 11:01pm
|
I found when I practiced them for fun in the past that it helped to make your toss near vertical and to confirm that the sweep tracjectory of your racket was in line with the toss. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |