BH Rubbers for RPB players
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Topic: BH Rubbers for RPB players
Posted By: wankhao
Subject: BH Rubbers for RPB players
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 8:04am
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First of all, thank you for viewing my post. Today, my topic is Backhand rubbers for Reverse Penhold Backhand players. Challenges: There are difference challenges for RPB players at different levels. 1. Their backhand could not get the ball over the net. (Beginner level) 2. Their backhand could not generate enough spin (Novice level) 3. Their backhand could not deliver enough power (Amateur level) 4. Their backhand could not counter attack/loop (Pro level) The technique to learn is on youtube demonstrated by Wang Hao, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrrIDgT6TnY" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrrIDgT6TnY Therefore, different rubbers are needed for the backhand at different levels. 1.To get the ball over the net: Fast rubber, eg: Xiom 2. To generate spin: Soft (in hardness) and slow rubber, eg: Calibra LT/ Tour 3. To deliver power (and block): Soft and fast rubber, eg: Hexer HD, Palio macro Pro 4. To counter attack (and punch/catapult): Medium (in hardness) fast rubber , eg: Tenergy 05, Rakza 7. If you feel comfortable using Tenergy 05, or Rakza 7, then keep them. If you don't feel comfortable with them, step down to other rubbers as mentioned in order 1 to 4. Once you are not happy with them, move up the ladder in order 1 to 4. Never ever use Chinese rubbers on your backhand with RPB. I will post a comparison between Tenery05 and Rakza 7 for BH rubber for RPB players if requested. |
Replies:
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 8:51am
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Interesting take. Do you have any thoughts on the thickness of rpb rubbers? Should they also be 2.2ish? ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 8:58am
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Not entirely sure if this is what you're saying but I completely disagree with the assessment that you need a different backhand rubber for whatever level you are. So this post is saying theoritcally that if some started table tennis, they'd go from Xiom to Calibra Tour to Palio Macro Pro to finally end up at Tenergy 05 as they progress? So much for consistency. And on point 1. Their backhand could not get the ball over the net. To me that's not a rubber progblem. That's a player's technique problem. ... Separate rant here. Your post seems well thought and that you took some time with it. For that much I can say "welcome to the board and we hope to have most posting from you." However you must understand that when a brand new person joins the board and right out the gate starts coaching or throwing around knowledge, surely you must understand that there could be some skepticism from board members.. Or I'll just say at least from me (won't speak for others). I mean we don't know you. We haven't had a chance to gauge your TT knowledge or experience? Trust me when I say there have been some blowhards come and go so unfortunately, we can't simply take everybody's word for it. It takes time to build that up. I trust opinions from NextLevel or Baal or countless others i'm forgetting because I've time to feel them out or see them play. I would like to see some more of that from you. Just my two cents. Welcome to the board.
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Posted By: wankhao
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 4:02pm
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Hi Suds79 Thank you for your feed back. Those are the challenges from the player's perspective. If I were a coach or intended to be one, I'd be rather busy training or get the training certificate and start making money with my knowledge instead of throwing it around. In fact, a good coach is one who can listen to players' feedback and understand their challenges no matter how illogical those excuses could be. |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 4:20pm
I don't really agree with the OP, but I'll weigh in on your post: I prefer a thinner sponge for RPB and vary between 1.8 and 2.0. My latest BH rubber is Nittaku Narucross GS super soft in ~1.8. Even at that thickness, there is plenty of speed and spin. As an added benefit it's a little lighter than the thicker sponges. If only it could magically make my stroke more consistent.
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cole_ely wrote:Posted By: wankhao
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 6:24pm
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Hi Cole_ely Thank you for your understand. From my personal experience only (and not a coach's), one should not use 2.2 or maximum thickness of rubbers for backhand when playing with RPB style. To some extents, backhand with RPB can generate more SIDE spin (compared to shake-hand style), and thus set it up for fore-hand attack. RPB's weakness is blocking so Control and Spin are more important than Speed and Power for backhand with RPB. Any rubber that can give the RPB's backhand stroke more Consistency, especially in block-push combination, thus diverting the opponent's ball more to the middle of the table or even the forehand (right-hand side) of the RPB player, is a winning rubber. |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 11:02pm
Strange, I don't find blocking to be any harder with RPB than my FH. I'm probably better at blocking with my BH than my FH, though that could be due to more repetitions. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm confused on why you think the additional side spin helps to set up a FH attack. A typical block of the side spin will bring the ball towards your BH, not towards your FH unless you step around. Also, do you push a lot with your BH rubber? I used to do that a lot, but lately I'm been using it less and less.
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Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 11:30am
is there is reason for your preference of thinner sponges? ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: liulin04
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 11:54am
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I've been using RPB for about10 years now, this is the evolution of my backhand in terms of rubbers: Butterfly Sriver FX - Tibhar Grip S - Nittaku Narucross GS Soft - Stiga Boost TC - Butterfly Tenergy 64 (~ 2 years) (~ 2 years) (~6 months) (~4 years) (~1 year) I loved the Boost TC, Grip S, and Tenergy 64 so very much. Boost TC is such an underrated rubber for RPB. It is soft so it grips the ball extremely well to provide maximum spin. Grip S is also a fantastic rubber, although hard, but the amount of spin it generated was much better than Tenergy 64 and Boost TC. Too bad it isn't quite fast for punch blocks. Tenergy 64 is the newest rubber that I've used for my RPB. Excellent for mid-distance RPB and counter-looping RPB. Nice for fast blocks and punch blocks too. Anyone going with any of these four rubbers except the Narucross, I highly recommend it! Oh, and all of them are MAX thickness to get the most speed, spin, and power! I will be making a video of my RPB hopefully in the coming months! ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35056&PN=14&title=feedback-liulin04" rel="nofollow - My Feedbacks |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 10:16pm
1.8 isn't that thin, but here's I prefer the thinner sponge for the RPB: I stay close to the table and I'm a wristy player to begin with, so the problem isn't with generating power or spin, but rather consistency and control (and unfortunately my habit of not attacking w/ my BH enough). As I mentioned the lighter weight is nice too.
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Posted By: wankhao
Date Posted: 01/24/2015 at 8:18am
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Hi Coley Sorry for delaying in response to you. Too busy for other stuffs and playing tt to do posting here. Firstly, the RPB's side spin. Beginner and Novice RPB players can only do the backhand side spin to their opponents' back hand (left-hand side) (provided both RPB player and their opponents are right handed). When you start getting comfortable with RPB back hand strokes, a good RPB player can place the ball almost any where on the table with their back-hand flicks and swings. And this is where it can set up opportunity for FH. Secondly, blocking. There are two main kind of blocking: passive block and active block. Passive block is just returning the ball back to your opponent, where the ball returns to your opponent is relatively short within the table. Active Block, however, has the component of PUSHING. It's a Block-Push combo, where you push the ball back LONG, and DEEP into the opponent. Ideally, this PUSH should be fast, Down-the-line and thus would either upset the rhythm of your opponent or make your opponent move from one end to the other end of the table. In short, in a passive block, the ball returns short, within the table. In an active block, the ball returns long, deep into your opponent, down-the-line in your opponent table. This is done by PUSHING the ball when BLOCKING, which is why I call it PUSH-BLOCK or BLOCK-PUSH. Now, why bring the backhand PUSHING into RPB? As a convert from handshake style to RPB, I feel RPB style can not SMASH with the backhand as strong as the backhand SMASH done by handshake style. Even you manage to smash very hard with your RPB backhand, you may lose your grip of the blade after the SMASH. Handshake has no issue with backhand smash at all. Therefore, next level for RPB PUSH is a RPB PUNCH, where instead of big swing with the backhand stroke, you push your backhand straight forward like a PUNCH. Different to its normal SIDE-SPIN swing, this backhand PUNCH is just flat and fast. This Block-Punch could also be deceptive where your opponent may under-estimate it for a Passive Block, and make unforced errors. I've seen Wang Hao perfecting the three styles of normal passive Block, Block-Push and Block-Punch in his match against MA LONG in WTTC 2011 and WTTC 2013. Added with his backhand side-spin big swing-loop, Wang Hao completely exploited MALONG's backhand to his advantage. |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 01/24/2015 at 9:28am
Sure, you can place it anywhere you want, but we were talking about the side spin you put on the ball. While you can put sidespin in the other direction on the ball (similar to a fade loop), that's a much more advanced and difficult shot. It also reduces the power you can put into it. The typical rpb stroke will put sidespin on the ball that when returned will naturally bring the ball towards your backhand, not your FH.
We differ in the terminology. I don't think I'm alone on this, but when I hear the word push I think of stroke coming underneath the ball usually against underspin. Something intended to return the ball with underspin or no-spin (assuming inverted). I understand what you mean now, and that's just going moving forward with your block. Thus the active block The rest of your post has more to do with the difference in terminology so I won't respond to it.
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Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 01/25/2015 at 1:17am
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A well implemented RPB is almost entirely similar to SH BH other than pushing, so the entire premise that it requires some special treatment (esp for equipment) is questionable. Though I guess more novice RPB users have bad technique so they should try rubber that's easier to use, and a really slow blade if they ever hope to loop with it. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 01/25/2015 at 9:04am
There are a lot of similarities between the SH BH and the RPB, but the differences are significant. 2 things come to mind immediately: Weight is an issue based solely on the grip. You don't want a heavy setup because it puts more strain on your wrist. Most people I've talked to like to keep their setup in the 170s (there are exceptions) whereas with SH the range is much larger. So I find that rpb players tend to use a lighter rubber on the BH to reduce weight. The angle of the bat is naturally more closed for RPB than the SH BH, so typically RPB players go with softer rubbers to add "dwell" and improve control. I think a hard rubber on the BH combined with the closed angle would make it harder to maintain consistency.
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Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 4:34am
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"Most" RPB players have terrible technique on the BH and can benefit far more from any improvement form than optimizing equipment for what they have. The better their RPB, the closer it is to SH. Wang Hao is basically a two wing SH player who grips the blade somewhat differently. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: wanhao
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 5:10am
| I feel Learning from Malin or Xuxin will be better and more practical. |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 6:04am
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Both have worse BH form because they started late and apparently weren't willing to take time off from competing to fix it correctly. Xuxin form for short strokes actually isn't too bad; he's just not as good at execution and he strongly favors FH which is understandable. Club amateur players aren't under the same pressure to always perform. The main point is you should try to learn the right thing, instead of learning other people's failed attempts to do so. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: sandiway
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 9:19pm
Started late? Xu Xin learnt rpb at an early age. Sandiway
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Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 9:47pm
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He clearly didn't start off playing that way like WH did. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 9:48pm
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How did Wang Hao start playing? Do you have any research/articles on how he developed? The question has always intrigued me. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: sandiway
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 9:56pm
You're assuming or do you know? Xu Xin at 12 had a good enough RPB to make a special mention of... Read. http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?455-I-lived-with-Xu-Xin!!!-%28WR-3%29" rel="nofollow - http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?455-I-lived-with-Xu-Xin!!!-(WR-3)
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Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 10:02pm
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> How did Wang Hao start playing? I recall some interview where he said he always held/used the racket like that because it felt natural. > You're assuming or do you know? Someone who starts with RPB doesn't FH block (which messes up the RPB angles) or cover up most of the racket face with the fingers like he does. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 10:04pm
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On Wang Hao (scroll down a little): ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 10:08pm
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just fyi, the interview I'm referring to was in video
------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/26/2015 at 11:09pm
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Got it. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: sandiway
Date Posted: 01/27/2015 at 12:59am
| Wang Hao's coach back in Jilin was Xue Ri Kun. He developed Wang Hao's backhand for 7 years. |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 01/27/2015 at 11:52am
If we only look at RPB then yes Wang Hao is probably the best to imitate! I mean ideally i want to have Wang Hao's RPB, Ma Lin's serve and short game and RSM's FH but those three elements probably don't work together that well because they all require different grips and strategy! My point is you should look at how RPB will fit into your overall game and then decide who to imitate! Wang Hao's BH is stable and powerful, but he lacks agility, variety and trickiness in his BH and short game. Ma Lin's BH is tricky, very agile and he can hit a huge variety of shots from his BH but it lacks power and stability! I don't think Ma Lin would have been a better player with Wang Hao's RPB. Xu Xin maybe, since he is kinda between ML and WH and it seems like that what the chinese coaches is moving him towards! you probably should not copy any pros before you figure out what you are good at! LGL keeps saying that a star player will ruin a generation of tt players because they will try to imitate him/her without the necessary talent or training! ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 01/27/2015 at 1:53pm
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One of my practice partners uses S2 2.0mm for his RPB. It works well for him. He is just an average club player but he has no problems with issues 1-4 in the OP's post. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 01/27/2015 at 3:28pm
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>
Ma Lin's BH is tricky, very agile and he can hit a huge variety of shots from his BH but it lacks power and stability! The traditional BH is quite restrictive at higher levels since the wrist lacks flexibility at the angles necessary to block loops. Contrast to RPB where counters against topspin are automatic and even more natural angle than SH. Ma Lin's spin pushes will lose out some (and he's really the extreme case) but this is more than made up by better topspin handling and better opening against backspin. Unless someone's game is based on pushing it's hard to imagine they'd be better off with traditional penhold. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/27/2015 at 3:43pm
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I think the question isn't about whether they are better off, but how they want to play. There are TPB penholders who tried to find an RPB solution but realized that boat had passed them by (Ryu). RPB of the form of Wang Hao is clearly a specialist thing and not for people who want to retain TPB. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 01/27/2015 at 4:07pm
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I'm just clearing up the common misconceptions about RPB. People can play however they want, but there are better/worse ways of doing things. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 01/27/2015 at 5:40pm
I don't know where you get this "TPB's game is based on pushing" from. TPB is pretty flexible to block loops: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdGb0-KTy3k" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdGb0-KTy3k BTW I played on the Argentina National Team as a K-pen player. ------------- Current USATT Rating: 2181 Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
Posted By: rick_ys_ho
Date Posted: 01/27/2015 at 5:58pm
I agree with RR. In general TPB is actually better in defense or control type of strokes, including blocking loops, compared to RPB. |
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 01/28/2015 at 12:22am
the best BH I ve seen is chiang penglung TBP
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Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 01/28/2015 at 12:52am
The closed angle necessary to block high spin loops is at the very limit of motion for the human wrist. That's why you see these players contort their bodies somewhat to block topspin. At the limit the range of flexibility drops towards zero, which means they need to use their body to control the angle instead of just wrist. That's also why they need to really contort to pull off a BH loop. As a serious pen player you should know that it was recommended more for tall players simply because they can close the angle down over the table better due to geometry of their height. This worked better when pen players were still hitting with low-throw pips, or used bit lower throw 1-plies, but the pro scene has moved on. Contrast this to RPB which has a very natural angle against topspin. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 01/28/2015 at 11:51am
+1 amazing blocks… one of the only players to turn the weakness of a style to a strength! ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 01/28/2015 at 11:55am
Thats true if all you do is straight forward passive blocks…. ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 01/28/2015 at 12:24pm
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The point is the more limited range of motion restricts flexibility. If this weren't a problem, the ranks of top players wouldn't be moving away from it. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: ronakvyas86
Date Posted: 04/15/2016 at 3:51am
I believe tibhar aurus can cover first 3 levels 1. It's forgiving 2. Spinny 3. Fast Using it on 4th level would be a matter of personal preference IMO. Works best with blades having hinoki top ply e.g Joola Rossi Emotion ------------- Yasaka Goiabao 5 CPEN, Donic Baracuda MAX FH & RPB |
Posted By: dmoney
Date Posted: 12/02/2016 at 2:11am
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Thanks for the post. But this really doesn't give me much help on which rubber to choose. I've been playing with Mark V on both sides for a while now, and I'm itching for something a little more aggressive. Any suggestions? ------------- Thanks! |