ML's New Look BH
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Topic: ML's New Look BH
Posted By: V-Griper
Subject: ML's New Look BH
Date Posted: 02/16/2015 at 6:08pm
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After watching ML in the KU open I think that ML Just finished a complete overhaul of his BH. Since I am a TJ (technique junkie) I wanted to post in concert with the speculation about his BH rubber. His BH looks a ton more like ZJK's, and the main technical change that I think I see is more BH bias in the grip. All of his BH strokes are way more solid especially his punch/active block. His flip has more spin as well as his off the table BH loop. I think it has given him a new level of confidence on that side as well which may be the essential ingredient needed boost his mental game in the tough matches. In short this is a whole new animal and it will be very interesting to watch him in the next few years. Thoughts? ------------- DHS 301 Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
Replies:
Posted By: chongqinghotpot
Date Posted: 02/16/2015 at 7:54pm
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2nd your conclusions. As you might know, he has changed his bk rubber to hurricane, with which his BH is able to: 1. Open with stronger top spin 2. Counter banana flips better 3. Counterdrive the topspin better 4. Control and place the ball better 5. Give him more time to switch from bh to fh He is stronger now and has better bh skills so he does not need a high speed rubber like tenergy. He was on par with FZD's bh in the semi if not better. ML IMHO has the most complete repertoire of Tt skills among all the active players right now. ------------- USATT rating 2200 05Vis64 |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 02/16/2015 at 8:18pm
 ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
V-Griper wrote:Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 02/16/2015 at 8:19pm
------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 02/16/2015 at 8:20pm
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People on the chinese forums thinks he went double H3 with diff sponge…. ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 02/17/2015 at 6:59am
He did indeed. ML looks to have a lot more confidence on his BH side now. He was playing some expansive shots in Kuwait, where previously he would play more conservatively IMO. Some of his BH rips from half-distance were seriously great, and not what I expected to see from him. It gives him more options to continue to press during a rally. It remains to be seen if he will carry on playing so positively on his BH wing. I hope so! Should liven the WTTC up. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 02/17/2015 at 9:19am
| ML always has a good back hand, so I don't think new BH rubber has anything to do with it. What I see in the Kuwait Tour is that he stays at the table for all the rally (similar to FZD). If you watch the game he play against FZD, they very similar, but with ML switching side quicker, and more consistent on the FH. On the final, XX was unable to push him back like in their past meeting, any loose quite easily. |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 02/17/2015 at 9:40am
You don't get to ML's level with a serious weakness in your game, for sure. So he's never had a bad BH. However, the past has shown that ML's BH is the area which suffers when he's under pressure (mentally?). He looked really good in Kuwait though - very confident and aggressive on the BH side. It will be interesting to see how he does when the pressure is really on. Perhaps just the knowledge that he won't have to face WH again has set him free.  ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 02/17/2015 at 10:13am
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His BH looked a little better to me. But to write 6 points about it is seriously overblowing it. I thought all of his game looked better, including his FH. He missed NOTHING all tournament. Remember those superspiny fhs that XX digs from under the table? I will be lucky if I touch that ball, but ML completely crushed them. He crushed everything with his FH. He was just in top shape, i didn't see a single new BH technique, no special superiority coming from a chinese rubber. I remember when XX changed his BH to chinese rubber, and he won some pro tour event after that, and we got the EXACT same thread after that, and everybody bowed down to his 'new BH'. But they gave up quickly after that. I think its too late for significant change for those guys. All they can do is be in top shape. |
Posted By: chroot
Date Posted: 02/17/2015 at 10:16am
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Hopefully, the new rubber can help ML in the WTTC this year. ML lost to Wan Hao in crucial games again and again in the past. According to LGL, it's because of the weakness in his BH comparing to WH. ZJK beat WH in crucial games again and again because his BH is at the same level as (or better than) WH's. ------------- BTY Viscaria 90g DHS Hurricane 3 NEO, 39/2.1 BTY Tenergy 05 1.9 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62263" rel="nofollow - My Feedbacks |
Posted By: chroot
Date Posted: 02/17/2015 at 10:18am
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ZJK & XX might use those games to test their new equipment/tactics. Especially ZJK, he is known to do that before serious tournaments like wttc and olympics. In the trails and Kuwait open, he tried a lot to use his FH flicks & push return.
------------- BTY Viscaria 90g DHS Hurricane 3 NEO, 39/2.1 BTY Tenergy 05 1.9 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62263" rel="nofollow - My Feedbacks |
Posted By: chongqinghotpot
Date Posted: 02/17/2015 at 10:52am
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ML's no 1 weakness was psychological (he usually could not sleep the night before the most important matches). No 2 weakness was BH. Improved in both recently, specially the later. But I am still not sure he is as tough as ZJK both mentally and physically to beat ZJK in the big 3 events. ------------- USATT rating 2200 05Vis64 |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/17/2015 at 10:59am
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Ma Long also showed exceptional BH strength when he won against ZJK at the China Trials recently. However he needs to maintain that. He needs to stop serving pendulum sidespin serves to players like ZJK and FZD. Backspin/no spin or reverse serves to the FH accompanied by long serves to the BH is the way to go, these are a lot more awkward to them to receive. Ma Long has the advantage when the % backspin play is higher, his flicks, FH third ball, his speed can be better utilized in this environment compared to topspin BH-BH where he is still at a significant disadvantage. Xu Xin was really dangerous too, his FH quality was so good that it is about as close to unblockable close to the table. Ma Long going through FZD and Xu Xin in such a convincing way is a good sign for WTTC. He should be ramping up his gears now, just like ZJK. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: tack_and_grip
Date Posted: 02/18/2015 at 12:59am
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Well, I agree that ML's BH has visibly improved but differ on the extend of his improvement. IMO, his opening BH flick is defnitely stronger (in the game against FZD) and has won him a couple of points. But I think his edge mainly came from initiating attacks more frequently then before (regardless from the FH or BH). In the game against XX, he didn't have to play with the same type of aggression. I think XX was trying to be more RPB-oriented and ML did a great job controlling XX with tempo and placement. Against ZJK, I think the verdict is still out there. IMO, I don't think just a stronger BH opening would be as effective as preventing ZJK from initiating attack or being able sustain BH-BH rallies. Both aren't easy. (Other than WH, I don't recall anyone in the CNT able to take ZJK on his BH.) But it's hard to say how things would turn out in the WTTC. I believe TT is a complete package, and at their best, ML and ZJK are pretty close. Digressing a bit: What I'm really curious is how to improve XX's BH to bring him to the next level.
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Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 02/18/2015 at 1:41am
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The CNT during Ma Long's development tended to emphasize opening with the FH into opponent weak side, but the new reality is that BH reactive/defensive play has reached a point where shuffling out of position to use FH can become a major liability instead of advantage even with ML's abilities. It's really refreshing to see his coaches take the time/effort to significantly rework a player in face of a changing gaming instead of adhering to some ideology. The strength of something like H3 is easier attacks against backspin which apparently helped with this transition. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: zheyi
Date Posted: 02/18/2015 at 5:28am
| Balls turned slower and less spinny. We got to be all round rather than specialised. |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 02/18/2015 at 12:42pm
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Hurricane on BH? Hmm... that is certainly innovative. Well, if he is happy with it, who am I to argue. But it is rather strange - basically nobody at his level or in top-200 is using a seriously tacky rubber on BH. Or am I wrong there? ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: chroot
Date Posted: 02/18/2015 at 12:59pm
Some top Chinese players did use Hurricane on BH before, for example, Wang Liqin & Wang Nan. ------------- BTY Viscaria 90g DHS Hurricane 3 NEO, 39/2.1 BTY Tenergy 05 1.9 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62263" rel="nofollow - My Feedbacks |
Posted By: john18
Date Posted: 02/18/2015 at 2:23pm
Xu Xin ? |
Posted By: aroonkl
Date Posted: 02/24/2015 at 3:01am
If the red is H3, why he still flipped the red to smash the balls? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqQw9PXCVLY&list=PLIl_mJ3zK7B_8OhDiC19A50o3ofgEtIVx&index=14 min=1.26 In the match against XX, Ma did not flip the red for smashing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IErflsYHIK0&list=PLIl_mJ3zK7B_8OhDiC19A50o3ofgEtIVx&index=3 min= 0.43 But obviously his BH loops were slower and spinnier for sure.
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Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 02/24/2015 at 3:34am
That could be a developed habit of using BH to smash after years of Tenergy. But still the H3 on BH is not the same as FH because of different sponge. It is said the yellow sponge is #60 which is also used by XX. Don't know how much better it is comparing to the market version of #60 sponge used on rubbers like TG3-60 but it is true that the new sponge is more bouncy and Euro/Jap like. So using BH to smash is still understandable. ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: chroot
Date Posted: 02/24/2015 at 9:45pm
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Timo Boll appears to adjust to the new ball better than anyone else. TB vs ML in this year's WTTC final would be awesome. ------------- BTY Viscaria 90g DHS Hurricane 3 NEO, 39/2.1 BTY Tenergy 05 1.9 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62263" rel="nofollow - My Feedbacks |
Posted By: vutiendat1337
Date Posted: 02/25/2015 at 2:30am
Are you sure? He lost to Wang Jian Jun and Marcos Freitas in the first leg round of Champions League. I mean, he did beat both of them in the second leg but does not seem to corroborate the "appears to adjust to the new ball better than anyone else". Plus he lost to Dima in the Energis Master or whatever you call it, and Dima has not exactly been on a winning streak since the plastic ball. ------------- bty petr korbel st fh: donic bluefire red bh: dawei iqul black USATT:1811 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40320&title=feedbackvutiendat1337" rel="nofollow - Feedback me |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 02/25/2015 at 2:27pm
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So I started this thread to talk about technical changes that I think I see in ML' BH technique. My observation is that he has gone to a more BH biased grip for his BH, and I think this is the foundaton for his overall improvement on the BH side. Furthermore I think this is and will be the technical trend going forward. Having a bias on the BH grip is not a new thing, obviously, but what I think is new is the amount of it. And though the differences may be small I think it has a big effect on the efficacy of the stroke overall. Here are some vids for comparison so you can judge for yourself. ML vs ZJK 2010 trials ML vs ZJK 2014 trials ------------- DHS 301 Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 02/25/2015 at 3:04pm
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I lean to the opinion that any change to his BH rubber is for commercial reasons. It must really p-off DHS that their star player has used Tenergy for such a long time ensuring Butterfly gets all that free promotion. I bet that his BH H3 has a sponge very close to Tenergy-like performance. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: petermoo
Date Posted: 02/25/2015 at 9:13pm
Petermoo ------------- Petermoo AcudaS1 Max JO Silver Butterfly Gergely Carbon http://petermoo.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 02/25/2015 at 9:22pm
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> He's switched from Tenergy to cope with the ball change and his backhand has improved as a result. LOL. Ma Long doesn't have to read ad copy to justify equipment changes. And how exactly does a slower rubber cope with a slower ball? Ma Long just like Xu Xin before him is trading off top end speed for better control, because you know, control over the shot is important. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: petermoo
Date Posted: 02/25/2015 at 9:26pm
------------- Petermoo AcudaS1 Max JO Silver Butterfly Gergely Carbon http://petermoo.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/25/2015 at 9:27pm
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Why should it bother anyone? |
Posted By: petermoo
Date Posted: 02/25/2015 at 9:34pm
Petermoo ------------- Petermoo AcudaS1 Max JO Silver Butterfly Gergely Carbon http://petermoo.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 02/25/2015 at 9:36pm
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I remember there was this huge controversy when it was revealed ZJK used 05fx instead of 05, provoking some to contend that the photos doing the revealing to be fake. I think we can all guess at why it bothers them. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 02/25/2015 at 10:01pm
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It was the same deal when FZD was promoting the Stiga wood blade he's using, and some continued to insist it must be Viscaria with stiga handle even after being shown the prominent dyed layers from in-game footage. Folks scrutinize these guy's gear closer than their teammates/competitors do. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 02/26/2015 at 11:25am
Exactly. DHS probably offered ML more money to change his for just that reason. Whatever you want to believe, ML is a professional. But then again, I see some changes in his game, but all players look different over the years, even us lowly league players. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |