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Cheaper rubbers that can compete with ESN

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Topic: Cheaper rubbers that can compete with ESN
Posted By: Clarence247
Subject: Cheaper rubbers that can compete with ESN
Date Posted: 03/01/2015 at 12:38pm
Ok, here's one for all the EJ's out there.

I like playing with ESN rubbers and believe they do give a competitive advantage over most others (apart from Tenergy or H3 boosted). 

However, for a few friends of mine I am searching for alternatives with a Max Budget is around 25-30 USD per rubber - no ESN even if they fall within that range.

Are there any alternatives from Yihne / Galaxy , DHS, or any other company that will allow them (good players with good technique) to compete effectively against ESN rubber users? (These are players used to ESN products, therefore the feel has to be at least a bit similar)

So far I have recommended the Sanwei T-88i, but it is still quite hard and does not quite feel like an ESN rubber. 

I have seen Galaxy Moon Speed / Pro might be a good alternative to ESN stuff. Any others? 




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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max)
Mantra M (Max)

Backup:
Yasaka Extra Offensive,
Nittaku H3 Prov
729-802 SP



Replies:
Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 03/01/2015 at 12:59pm
im a huge Xiom fan. Esp Omega IV pro. Mine are very old. Ive used my friends moon pro (that he said he paid 39$ from megaspin 2 years ago) and for a 2 year old rubber, this thing played like a beast. I went ahead and ordered a moon pro yesterday. It's for my forehand tho. My BH will probably be an esn rubber. Preferbly Omega IV Pro (price has decreased significantly. under 35$ now) also seeing crazy good reviews of tenzone ultra sf which happens to be ano esn rubber.
How long have you used your p7 for? is it durable ?


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"I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike

Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629


Posted By: Clarence247
Date Posted: 03/01/2015 at 1:08pm
P7 is very durable, if playing like 2 /3 times per week in league matches or practice play, without real multiball training - it can give you a good year at 70%. 1st 6 months will be at least at 85%. It's spin does not come so much only from it's topsheet, so even when the topsheet does not grip that much anymore, you still retain a lot of the spin.

However, I would like to Keep this thread about rubbers like Yihne / Galaxy and stuff which is not ESN (not XIOM, Adidas etc) - to find out which alternatives play well enough to replace an ESN rubber.


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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max)
Mantra M (Max)

Backup:
Yasaka Extra Offensive,
Nittaku H3 Prov
729-802 SP


Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 03/01/2015 at 1:10pm
I like any of the DHS Neos on my FH $22 and IQUL SV or reg 1.8mm to 2mm on my BH $16.   With shipping in the US it is about $40.  There is nothing special about any of these rubbers except they last and don't seem to get slick spots that cause them to lose grip. The people I practice with couldn't tell the difference between me playing with the DHS NEO and IQUL and me playing with T05.  I will admit it took a little extra effort from me to get the same results. On the plus side the cheap rubbers don't respond to my errors in stroke as much as the T05 does.

The IQUL quality seems to be pretty consistent.  I like the fact I can order different sponge hardnesses and thickness.  The DHS quality is not quite there.  I have seen the thickness of the sponges vary so that a 2.15mm is thicker than a sponge that is supposed to be 2.2mm.



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I TT therefore I am


Posted By: CipheR
Date Posted: 03/01/2015 at 1:10pm
TG3/TG2 Boosted. ha ha ha

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ㅈㅈ지지ㅎㅎㅋㅋ
Nittaku Custom Blade
FH: Neo Hurricane 3 Provincial
BH: Xiom Musa


Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 03/01/2015 at 1:21pm
 Palio Macro Era is an ESN with your price point.  The other rubbers to consider would be Mark V HPS.   Also Cole has the Big Dipper which has had good reviews.  


Posted By: Clarence247
Date Posted: 03/01/2015 at 1:21pm
But does it give an ESN like feel when boosted? 

Originally posted by CipheR CipheR wrote:

TG3/TG2 Boosted. ha ha ha


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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max)
Mantra M (Max)

Backup:
Yasaka Extra Offensive,
Nittaku H3 Prov
729-802 SP


Posted By: AMonteiro
Date Posted: 03/01/2015 at 2:03pm
Palio Blitz for 28 dollars at ttnpp.com

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Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/01/2015 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

Ok, here's one for all the EJ's out there.

I like playing with ESN rubbers and believe they do give a competitive advantage over most others (apart from Tenergy or H3 boosted). 

However, for a few friends of mine I am searching for alternatives with a Max Budget is around 25-30 USD per rubber - no ESN even if they fall within that range.

Are there any alternatives from Yihne / Galaxy , DHS, or any other company that will allow them (good players with good technique) to compete effectively against ESN rubber users? (These are players used to ESN products, therefore the feel has to be at least a bit similar)

So far I have recommended the Sanwei T-88i, but it is still quite hard and does not quite feel like an ESN rubber. 

I have seen Galaxy Moon Speed / Pro might be a good alternative to ESN stuff. Any others? 




Moon pro is tacky, and in general the non-tack Yinhe rubbers are more like slow tenergy than ESN, not that there's anything wrong with that.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 03/01/2015 at 3:13pm
I know the topic talks about inverted rubbers but I will give my opinion about short pips.


Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 1:30am
Everyone is talking about blitz and thors, but I nearly forgot that the biotech 36-38 cj8000 from palio is also a 'tensor' rubber. Take the label 'tensor' for what you will. 12 for 2 sheets . Im sold!


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"I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike

Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629


Posted By: achoomai
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 1:40am
I have brand new GEWO Flexxon rubber at 30 USD. Let me know if you interested (only few left)

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My feedback : http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58844&PN=1#726094


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 4:48am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

I know the topic talks about inverted rubbers but I will give my opinion about short pips.
That's an interesting opinion, considering the Xtend PO is in and of itself a 3G Tensor.


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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 8:04am
I quite like the Nittaku Flyatt (Japan) and Fastarc S1 (Germany) pair. If you buy enough you can get discount to bring the price down to about $25 each from TT11. Some decent Donic rubbers are in that price range too. For Chinese rubbers the DHS Tinarc 5 is a good one but heavy. Or if you like tacky and hard then you can't get better performance for the price of Yinhe Big Dipper. Tacky and soft, that would be the new DHS TG3-60. 

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http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback


Posted By: mahomedy13
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by asifgunz asifgunz wrote:

Everyone is talking about blitz and thors, but I nearly forgot that the biotech 36-38 cj8000 from palio is also a 'tensor' rubber. Take the label 'tensor' for what you will. 12 for 2 sheets . Im sold!


To be honest,I wasn't impressed with this rubber at all.it was slow,and a bit lacking in spin.its just like a normal preboosted chinese rubber,except that the topsheet is only slightly tacky


Posted By: FlatHitter
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 12:45pm
juic 999series...sticky and fun rubbers...



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If your phone is'nt ringing, it's probably me...


Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 4:58pm
THE EPOCH OVERTAKES ESN.

http://www.epoch-tt.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.epoch-tt.com

EPOCH.
Renowned factory of China to develop pingpang sponge with tensored effect. They are truly experts at the tensor production..
BOMB labeled rubbers would emulate ESN products pretty well, best agreeable pricing.


Posted By: cheondo
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 5:02pm
I thought that Gambler Outlaw was pretty impressive. Air Illumina is also pretty good. I know a 1800 level guy who used Outlaw and I thought he was using an ESN or Tensor. I was really surprised to see it was cheap ol' Outlaw. 

Honestly, I think TG3 Neo is better -- much spinnier and more powerful, but it's obviously not that ESN feel that you're looking for. 

If you're recommending rubbers for your friends, I take it that they're not playing at a very high level, so what's the big deal? Any of these rubbers would be fine up to elite levels of play, assuming that you know how to use them (the Chinese tacky ones, I mean). I use TG3 Neo and do fine around 2000 level. I never feel like I'm at disadvantage with it. 


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Primorac Carbon + P7
Feedback http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70427&title=feedback-cheondo


Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

THE EPOCH OVERTAKES ESN.

http://www.epoch-tt.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.epoch-tt.com

EPOCH.
Renowned factory of China to develop pingpang sponge with tensored effect. They are truly experts at the tensor production..
BOMB labeled rubbers would emulate ESN products pretty well, best agreeable pricing.

Yeah, right. Who wouldn't want to play with a rubber called "Tensa" or "Mopha" ...


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

 Palio Macro Era is an ESN with your price point.  The other rubbers to consider would be Mark V HPS.   Also Cole has the Big Dipper which has had good reviews.  
Don't get the Marco Era (24 usd @ ttnpp), Marco Era is too soft (slow) for the new 40+ ball (I was a big fan of Marco Era), get Biltz (28 usd @ ttnpp) or  Thor's (24 usd @ ttnpp) or Rhyam (~$30 usd @ tt-japan) .


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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

THE EPOCH OVERTAKES ESN.

http://www.epoch-tt.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.epoch-tt.com

EPOCH.
Renowned factory of China to develop pingpang sponge with tensored effect. They are truly experts at the tensor production..
BOMB labeled rubbers would emulate ESN products pretty well, best agreeable pricing.

Yeah, right. Who wouldn't want to play with a rubber called "Tensa" or "Mopha" ...


Be thankful they didn't call it "Mofo" Big smile


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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 5:59pm
Mopha et al are phonetic romanization from chinese.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: stevenjlyang
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 10:08pm
they are different style rubber, ESN, Japanese and chinese rubber. 

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ZJK ALC 90g: T80 + T05FX
Boll ALC 89g: AIROC M + Calibra LT Spin


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 03/02/2015 at 10:19pm
I am having good results switching to 729 Battle (non-tacky) from Tenergy. Used Tenergy 05 for about 1yr. For cost reason I wanted to change. Don't seem to need any dramatic changes in technique. Battle seems much closer to T05 than the 40deg yellow sponge IQUL I tried first. Have some 39deg Big Dipper coming soon to try out also.

Mark


Posted By: SmackDAT
Date Posted: 03/03/2015 at 4:00am
Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

Ok, here's one for all the EJ's out there.

I like playing with ESN rubbers and believe they do give a competitive advantage over most others (apart from Tenergy or H3 boosted). 

However, for a few friends of mine I am searching for alternatives with a<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> Max Budget is around 25-30 USD per rubber - no ESN even if they fall within that range.</span>

Are there any alternatives from Yihne / Galaxy , DHS, or any other company that will allow them (good players with good technique) to compete effectively against ESN rubber users? (These are players used to ESN products, therefore the feel has to be at least a bit similar)

So far I have recommended the Sanwei T-88i, but it is still quite hard and does not quite feel like an ESN rubber. 

I have seen Galaxy Moon Speed / Pro might be a good alternative to ESN stuff. Any others? 



ESN is fairly cheap, no?

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Zhang Jike ALC AN (88g)
Tenergy 05 Hard (2.1, B)
Tenergy 19 (2.1, R)
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Posted By: laki
Date Posted: 03/03/2015 at 6:06am
Three rubbers come to my mind when I read the headline of the thread...I'm thinking of non-tacky, or slightly tacky speedy rubbers.
First is LKT Rapid Speed, a great allround rubber that has been around for a while, and it seems that everybody likes it, some more some less. Completely non tacky. Medium hard feel. Price in the neighborhood of 10 euros a piece. This strikes me as a rubber that is very good at everything, but not exceeding in anything. As I said, a great all-rounder.
Second is Friendship 729 Aurora. A new rubber from 729 RITC that is already getting lots of positive feedback from users. Haven't used it myself, but I'm planing to try it in the near future, just to see what is all the fuss about. Price around 15 euros.
And if you wanna go really cheep, go with Galaxy/Yinhe Mercury 2. I love the soft version of this rubber (33-35 deg), and the price is somewhere around 3.5 to 5 euros a piece. Amazing. The feel is medium soft. It has great spin capabilities and the speed somewhere similar to, lets say, Donic Acuda S3, maybe even a bit faster. This rubber is slightly tacky when new (tackiness fades away shortly). If you like harder feel, you can chose the hardness when you order: soft (33-35), medium (36-38) or hard (39-41).
Both LKT Rapid Speed and Mercury 2 (soft version) are not heavy rubbers. In max thickness, cut for Clipper wood, both vary between 43 to 45 grams per sheet. For Aurora I'm not sure, but it seems that (according to reviews) it is a medium heavy rubber as well.


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Stiga Clipper CC
FH: Xiom Vega Pro
BH: Joola X-plode


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/03/2015 at 7:50am
Mercury 2 is basically cheap/non-durable H3 and nothing like ESNs.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/03/2015 at 7:51am
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:


ESN is fairly cheap, no?


Compared to what? Tenergy?


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 11:41am
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:


ESN is fairly cheap, no?


Compared to what? Tenergy?
If you get 729 or Palio ESN, they are very reasonable. 


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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 3:56pm
In general ESN is most expensive rubber other than Tenergy. I guess usually 40-50 per sheet isn't too much in grand scheme of things, but it is small piece of mass-produced sponge rubber.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


Be thankful they didn't call it "Mofo" Big smile

I'd totally buy a rubber called "Mofo". "Bad MoFo" would be even better!


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Trade feedback:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787


Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


Be thankful they didn't call it "Mofo" Big smile

I'd totally buy a rubber called "Mofo". "Bad MoFo" would be even better!


It would probably have a softer sponge and come factory tuned to f**k s**t up.


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"I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike

Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629


Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

In general ESN is most expensive rubber other than Tenergy. I guess usually 40-50 per sheet isn't too much in grand scheme of things, but it is small piece of mass-produced sponge rubber.


esn price has dropped significantly. For example Xiom Omega IV is available for 34 shipped and Sigma 1 Euro at t11 is 26 USD atm.


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"I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike

Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629


Posted By: Clarence247
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:13pm
Appreciated, this can be good info for those interested in SP



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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max)
Mantra M (Max)

Backup:
Yasaka Extra Offensive,
Nittaku H3 Prov
729-802 SP


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by asifgunz asifgunz wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

In general ESN is most expensive rubber other than Tenergy. I guess usually 40-50 per sheet isn't too much in grand scheme of things, but it is small piece of mass-produced sponge rubber.


esn price has dropped significantly. For example Xiom Omega IV is available for 34 shipped and Sigma 1 Euro at t11 is 26 USD atm.


That some significant discounts can exist on a few samples doesn't change the fact it's generally second most expensive, which doesn't translate to cheap.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: Clarence247
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:32pm
So far amidst the multitude of useless derailing posts we have also had some good suggestions - here is the list that has emerged: Only the ones which would not be a disadvantage to play with at a good level (let's say 1900-2200) are included.

Nittaku Flyatt (Japan)
Fastarc S1 (Germany) (but i guess this is ESN?)
DHS Tinarc 5 - 
Yinhe Big Dipper - 
DHS TG3-60
LKT Rapid Speed - have seen some older but very high level club players in eastern Europe with this and the other LKT rubbers mentioned below
LKT Red Diamond
LKT Pro XP
Sanwei T-88i

Probably the most interesting of the lot are probably the Tin Arc 5 and the Big Dipper. 


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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max)
Mantra M (Max)

Backup:
Yasaka Extra Offensive,
Nittaku H3 Prov
729-802 SP


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:37pm
> Only the ones which would not be a disadvantage to play with at a good level (let's say 1900-2200) are included.

The two best players in the world now use tuned H3 both sides (boosted Big Dipper will be close).




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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:45pm
A player looking for cheaper rubbers that can compete with ESN (and Tenergy, I assume). Hmm... that reminds me of someone. Oh yeah... myself.

Anyways, in the last 2-3 years I tried a bunch of those. Among the better ones were

Yinhe Mars II 40-41 degrees
Gambler Outlaw Soft
KTL Red Diamond (Black Power) Mechanical

Naturally I am only listing cheap ones. They are not really tensors (thank goodness), so do not expect same crazy catapult that you get from many ESN tensors. But they are not straight linear rubbers, and in speed/spin/control  they can definitely compete with ESN/Tenergy at the level of under 2000 USATT.


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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...


Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by asifgunz asifgunz wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

In general ESN is most expensive rubber other than Tenergy. I guess usually 40-50 per sheet isn't too much in grand scheme of things, but it is small piece of mass-produced sponge rubber.


esn price has dropped significantly. For example Xiom Omega IV is available for 34 shipped and Sigma 1 Euro at t11 is 26 USD atm.


That some significant discounts can exist on a few samples doesn't change the fact it's generally second most expensive, which doesn't translate to cheap.


Not samples. The t11 is on sale, but if you check over on the german websites, you'll see the same price range as that I've mentioned. Shipping isn't as high as it once used to be.


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"I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike

Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629


Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 03/04/2015 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

In general ESN is most expensive rubber other than Tenergy. I guess usually 40-50 per sheet isn't too much in grand scheme of things, but it is small piece of mass-produced sponge rubber.


I don't get what your point is.

In short, there are Tenergy and H(ype)3 National as the most expensive, "top" rubbers.

Next, there are various ESN and Japan tensioned rubbers. Many of them have some of Tenergy properties and may be considered as Tenergy alternatives, more or less.

Then, you have various Chinese rubbers, usually the cheapest and in the class of their own.

Obsolete post speed-glue and SG rubbers are not so popular and as such not worth to be mentioned.

Now, you can find diverse ESN rubbers at various prices, say from 22-48eur. Tenergy are always the same price, around 58±2eur, Hype 3 Nat are even more expensive (and especially "for CNT"). Chinese rubbers are the cheapest, in proportion with their properties, QC and durability.

So, ESN and Japanese tensioned rubbers are often the best in terms of price/performance ratio, at least for non-pro players.

Newer DHS rubbers are close to the Euro/Jap tension rubbers in price, I am not sure about their performance and QC.

Conclusion: you almost get what you pay for: with Chinese rubbers you get more, with ESN Euro/Jap almost the same and with Tenergy/H3 Nat less.

In general, apart from cheap Chinese, TT rubbers are mostly overpriced.


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Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 3:11am
> I don't get what your point is.

The topic is cheaper rubbers that can compete with ESN. Someone mentioned ESN is cheap, which it really isn't given it's generally the second most expensive rubber out there.

Also, the best chinese rubbers are not much slower than older/mediocre ESN's. The gap is only more evident because chinese rubbers tend to have better grip (more akin to Tenergy) whereas ESNs tend to go for all out speed, but grip is often a compromise worth choosing.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 3:23am
Originally posted by asifgunz asifgunz wrote:

if you check over on the german websites, you'll see the same price range as that I've mentioned. Shipping isn't as high as it once used to be.


Ok, I looked on first two results for german TT stores in google, contra.de and schoeler-micke.tabletennis-shop.de, and selected the most german possible manufacturers donic/andro. The acuda/bluefire/rasant are all 40-50euro.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by asifgunz asifgunz wrote:

if you check over on the german websites, you'll see the same price range as that I've mentioned. Shipping isn't as high as it once used to be.


Ok, I looked on first two results for german TT stores in google, contra.de and schoeler-micke.tabletennis-shop.de, and selected the most german possible manufacturers donic/andro. The acuda/bluefire/rasant are all 40-50euro.


you're not looking in the right place. If i fail to find a decent backhand rubber, Ill purchase rasant Grip for 32 usd and show you the receipt.


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"I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike

Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:21pm
I'm not insinuating you're fibbing about this or whatever, I just haven't seen any place regularly selling newer ESNs for <$40, esp shipped. Rasant Grip is 40euro at tt11 which is a cheap place to buy.

Frankly $100 for rubbers that a typical weekend warrior can use for a year (<$1/hr of play) isn't that much in the first world. The real savings are when you really want to try dozen different rubbers than $50 here and there add up.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

I'm not insinuating you're fibbing about this or whatever, I just haven't seen any place regularly selling newer ESNs for <$40, esp shipped. 

http://ttnpp.com/store/29-donic" rel="nofollow - http://ttnpp.com/store/29-donic


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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:38pm
You have pay for shipping from there whereas most US places are free shipping for $50, so the savings is really a few dollars.

--
No, my mistake, they seem to offer free shipping for those.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: debraj
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:45pm
if you don't change your rubbers much... and can buy in bulk of 7/8 rubbers, from tabletennis11, or timtts; ... then even the most modern ESN rubbers like rasant grip or rhyzm -p would still cost $30 a sheet.

problem is changing rubbers.. and hence buying in pieces.

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729-F1||Rhyzm-P(FH)|| Rasant Grip orRhyzm-P max(BH)
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Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:56pm
The problem with getting more stuff to hit the next tier of discounts at places like tt11 is you end up with gear you didn't need and end up not really using. The cost of buying anything and only using it a few times is higher than sticking with Tenergy.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 7:37pm
Agree. Tenergy lasts so long, you will save tons of money and time in the long run. Also, Tenergy keeps very well in storage and on the racket. Esn rubbers like bluefire go dead unopened in the package after a few months. I've probably wasted thousands of dollars trying rubbers, if I was smarter, I would have bought a few sheets of Tenergy. So buying Tenergy will give you a 10x return on your investment(time and money). Ejaying on inconsistent crap that doesn't last/needs constant boosting, will destroy your wallet and free time.


Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 7:47pm
you tenergy fanboys mean to tell me that those things are durable? Hah! nice one. Almost had me for a second.


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"I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike

Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 8:02pm
Tenergy seems to have bit more gradual dropoff whereas the heavier tuned ESNs can appear to fall off a cliff.

Regardless the rubbers are still playable after this unless maybe you're actually high level.

I used to use Yinhe's (and will likely do so again w/ next replacement) and found them to be fairly durable. H3 also lasts a long time as long as you protect the surface.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Agree. Tenergy lasts so long, you will save tons of money and time in the long run. Also, Tenergy keeps very well in storage and on the racket. Esn rubbers like bluefire go dead unopened in the package after a few months. I've probably wasted thousands of dollars trying rubbers, if I was smarter, I would have bought a few sheets of Tenergy. So buying Tenergy will give you a 10x return on your investment(time and money). Ejaying on inconsistent crap that doesn't last/needs constant boosting, will destroy your wallet and free time.


Lately Tenergy is not really more durable than other comparable rubbers.


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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...


Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 8:11pm
Tenergy is most likely the most durable rubber on the market, barring some weird, fringe, shoe-like chinese..
The tenergy sponge retains kick forever. And the topsheet, while gradually losing grip, is still not slippery at the 6 month mark, and does not have the signature center wear and discoloration of ESN rubbers. ESN rubbers look totally different in the center in a week, not sure why. 
I don't even use tenergy any more, its too jumpy for me. So I am not really a fanboy. That doesn't mean I can deny the durability.
Palio Blitz is the only decent chinese rubber that I know. The thing is, as of late, it costs more than Rhyzm, and that is completely unacceptable.


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 8:15pm
The yinhe maxtense or newer gen rubbers are basically Tenergy without the extra jumpiness.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

The problem with getting more stuff to hit the next tier of discounts at places like tt11 is you end up with gear you didn't need and end up not really using. The cost of buying anything and only using it a few times is higher than sticking with Tenergy.

There's another solution.  Get a few guys together to place an order.  If you get 5 guys, hitting 30% should be easy enough.


Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

The yinhe maxtense or newer gen rubbers are basically Tenergy without the extra jumpiness.


Imo I wouldnt call it tenergy killers but I appreciate you jumping off the tenergy bandwagon. did you happen to use Saturn Pro? It's been called slow by a few people. Was wondering how would it compare to any of the tenergies.


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"I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike

Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/05/2015 at 9:44pm
They're not tenergy killers since they're slower in comparison, but that's not a bad thing for less than elite players. That whole lineup is well suited to club level guys who want a less 3rd-ball-aggro-attack rubber than H3.

I haven't used Saturn but frankly most of their rubbers of a type (like tacky/grippy) are similar enough that it makes little difference not unlike moving between similar tenergies or esns. It's all the same sponge & topsheet composition with minor tweaks. For example, you might want to use something other than giant-pips Sun for loop-dominated game but otherwise it doesn't matter much.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .


Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/06/2015 at 4:09am
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Agree. Tenergy lasts so long, you will save tons of money and time in the long run. Also, Tenergy keeps very well in storage and on the racket. Esn rubbers like bluefire go dead unopened in the package after a few months. I've probably wasted thousands of dollars trying rubbers, if I was smarter, I would have bought a few sheets of Tenergy. So buying Tenergy will give you a 10x return on your investment(time and money). Ejaying on inconsistent crap that doesn't last/needs constant boosting, will destroy your wallet and free time.


10x? Absolute nonsense.

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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.


Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 03/06/2015 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Palio Blitz is the only decent chinese rubber that I know.


Palio is Hong Kong based company, but Blitz is tensor rubber made in Germany by ESN.

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Life is too short for defensive play.

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Posted By: eonblue
Date Posted: 03/06/2015 at 12:10pm
729 Battle (non-tacky) is quite good compared to vega europe, blitz, T05-FX; at least for me at 1760 it plays just as well on the backhand.

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Michael Maze ALC
Volt-T/Volt-M


Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 03/06/2015 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Agree. Tenergy lasts so long, you will save tons of money and time in the long run. Also, Tenergy keeps very well in storage and on the racket. Esn rubbers like bluefire go dead unopened in the package after a few months. I've probably wasted thousands of dollars trying rubbers, if I was smarter, I would have bought a few sheets of Tenergy. So buying Tenergy will give you a 10x return on your investment(time and money). Ejaying on inconsistent crap that doesn't last/needs constant boosting, will destroy your wallet and free time.


10x? Absolute nonsense.

Few sheets of Tenergy vs. thousands of dollars and wasted time ejaying on crappy rubbers. A one year old Tenergy is imo superior to many one week old esn rubbers. I had a 4 year old Tenergy that could beat the crap out of any new rubber under $40. 


Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 03/06/2015 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Agree. Tenergy lasts so long, you will save tons of money and time in the long run. Also, Tenergy keeps very well in storage and on the racket. Esn rubbers like bluefire go dead unopened in the package after a few months. I've probably wasted thousands of dollars trying rubbers, if I was smarter, I would have bought a few sheets of Tenergy. So buying Tenergy will give you a 10x return on your investment(time and money). Ejaying on inconsistent crap that doesn't last/needs constant boosting, will destroy your wallet and free time.


10x? Absolute nonsense.

Few sheets of Tenergy vs. thousands of dollars and wasted time ejaying on crappy rubbers. A one year old Tenergy is imo superior to many one week old esn rubbers. I had a 4 year old Tenergy that could beat the crap out of any new rubber under $40. 

In your opinion and for your game.  Not everyone likes the same rubber.  While I find Tenergy to last a very long time, I don't play any better with it.  I would argue that I actually play worse with Tenergy.  There's nothing worse than catching Tenergy on the table and throwing $60 down the drain.  I'm not happy when my $20 rips, but it's not nearly as bad.
Not everyone needs/wants to use the most expensive equipment out there.  Just because something costs more, doesn't mean it's better for your game.



Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/06/2015 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Few sheets of Tenergy vs. thousands of dollars and wasted time ejaying on crappy rubbers. A one year old Tenergy is imo superior to many one week old esn rubbers. I had a 4 year old Tenergy that could beat the crap out of any new rubber under $40. 


If you only have two options - Tenergy or a $1000 EJ spree - then you need to have a think about how you evaluate options. Because you need to compare one rubber to another, not one rubber to a shopping cart full of rubbers.

Your statements are hyperbolic, bordering on frothy madman chin wobbling. There is no way that a one year old Tenergy is superior to a one week old ESN. I can't think of a single feature of a rubber where that even makes sense. And that's without getting to a 4 year old sheet compared to a BRAND NEW sheet with a $40 budget. Just insane.

Now, I'm not nuts. I know Tenergy is great, and is quite durable in the general scheme of things. But performance-wise the latest ESN crop, and a few budget Chinese options, get very close. Close enough to not really matter at a non-elite level. And they are a LOT cheaper than Tenergy, and are available in an open international marketplace.

I happen to play a lot better (more consistent, mainly) with any recent ESN than I do with Tenergy, so I'm in the happy position to save money while simultaneously making the right choice for my game and level. But that's just me.

Your opinion is (of course) your own, and you're welcome to it. But I would hope that it's a minority one. The idea that Tenergy is so far and away from everything else on the market is just hype at this point in time, and a hype which lines BTY's pockets.

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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 03/06/2015 at 3:00pm
Maybe it is me, but the more expensive the rubber the more my paddle tends to gravitate towards the table on those half long serves. But a 20 dollar a sheet rubber on my blade and I couldn't hit the edge of the table if I tried!Clap


Posted By: geardaddy
Date Posted: 03/06/2015 at 3:42pm
This debate I'm sure could drag on forever, but here's an interesting anecdote ...

This is the blade I've been using for the last few months:

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12215455&cp=4406646.4425420.12208429

I had these cheap paddles at home for others to use.  The inverted rubber that was on them was horrible, i.e. pretty dead and reaaaally slow.  So, I peeled off the rubber and put some hardbat stuff on them, and they played half way decent.  Well, I decided to take some higher quality sheets of inverted and put them on one of these cheapo paddles as a backup.  Lo and behold, I really liked how it played!  I'm actually liking it more than the Waldner Senso Carbon that I was using (which I still like).  The speed is just a tad slower, but the softer feel just seems so much better to me overall.

Lately I've been getting some good wins off of higher rated players (2100+ rated players).  It's not all about the equipment, rather I've also just been playing better.  But I'm putting it into perspective.  The blade I'm using is a $10 paddle.  Clearly $$$ does not equal performance.

I don't use Tenergy either (currently using Xiom, which I have been liking).  It's not about the price.  EJ all you want.  It's a free country.  But IMO no rubber or blade is going to magically make you a better player.  It might make a small difference, but it's really all about technique.  Now, I do think that the wrong equipment can really hurt your game though.  That's why I stay completely away from just following what the pros use.


Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/06/2015 at 4:04pm
The law of diminishing returns kick in pretty quickly past the better chinese rubbers. Really we're only talking about 10% or such differences between doubling of prices. People who don't believe this can do some bounce tests. After a certain # of hours the most expensive rubber equalizes with lesser ones out of the package anyway.

You also don't get that extra elasticity on big shots for free and tend to pay for it on the little ones unless you have elite touch.


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Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 .



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