Poll: 40+ Seamed vs Seamless PB vs Celluloid Balls
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Topic: Poll: 40+ Seamed vs Seamless PB vs Celluloid Balls
Posted By: ahsq
Subject: Poll: 40+ Seamed vs Seamless PB vs Celluloid Balls
Date Posted: 05/19/2015 at 2:14pm
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In my limited experience I have only been playing the new 40+ DHS *** Seamed plastic
balls concurrent with the 40mm *** Nittaku celluloid balls.
I like the DHS seamed plastic balls over the celluloid. I found that the DHS seamed plastic balls to be easier to grip and bounces lower than the Nittaku balls. The Serve, flick and loop are better when I use the plastic ball. What is the difference between the Seamed and Seamless plastic balls besides the obvious seam? Please share your experiences with the forums. ------------- FS: Xiom Vega Pro ST 85 grams $80 shipped Donic Waldner Senso Carbo JO shaped ST $40 shipped |
Replies:
Posted By: ppmax
Date Posted: 05/19/2015 at 2:42pm
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Nittaku 40+ premium should not be lumped with other seamed balls. IMO, it's currently the best plastic ball, even given its price. The consistency and the durability (compared to other plastic balls) are simply great.
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Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 05/19/2015 at 2:55pm
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I've only played a couple of times with the XSF seamless ball compared to several hours with the Butterfly and Joola seamed plastic ball so can only say that it seems like the seamless ball was slightly slower/less spin than the butterfly seamed plastic ball. It's really amazing how far I've come with the plastic balls from 6 months to a year ago. Maybe they've just gotten much better now, but I'm actually starting to prefer the plastic balls now. I just don't want to keep switching back and forth between celluloid and plastic balls, especially since I've modified my setup somewhat for the plastic ball.
------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: hidasjoki
Date Posted: 05/19/2015 at 8:33pm
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Everyone at my club complained about the weight of the seamless poly ball, happened to be the Nexy brand. I thought the balls played great close to the table but everyone thought they weren't heavy enough. I did notice it when hitting lobs.... ------------- <3 |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 12:05am
I think it's because it bounces a little higher that it seems slower. |
AcudaDave wrote:Posted By: LOG1C1AN
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 12:57am
I think that the higher bounce is also why some think it feels lighter even though it's not. |
Posted By: alphapong
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 2:01am
| When we first evaluated plastic balls a number of months ago, it seemed nearly universal that players preferred the seamless balls over seamed Chinese balls. This has changed a lot in the last couple months. Now many, possibly the majority, prefer the seamed balls over the seamless. I still prefer celluloid myself. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 7:20am
That means they aren't paying for the balls - the price and durability factor has not changed the main evaluations for people paying for the balls or tracking breakage rates. As for the way they play, seamed balls with the way they react to spin give an outsize advantage to first attack loopers, while the higher bounce of seamless balls allows hitters to level the playing the field. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Ciprian
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 7:53am
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I've played with XSF 40+ balls and didn't like them.( No feeling ,lighter ,low bounce). Lately I've been playing with Stiga 40+ and Yasaka 40+ balls and I really like them. I think the quality of these new balls has improved . Many players ,from where I play, didn't notice much difference . ------------- Xi Enting FH-Aurus Sound BH- Pryde 30 |
Posted By: Vladovich
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 8:28am
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Is there any possibility that they will standardize plastic balls so that everybody play with the same ball. Current situation looks like the wild west... ------------- Tibhar Defense Plus FH: Joola Phenix BH: Dr. Neubauer Bison 1.5mm "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be…unnatural." |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 8:43am
+1. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 9:56am
I don't question that for some reason or other you may not have liked XSF40+, but the idea that their bounce is too low compared to a seamed Chinese 40+ (!!) is simply and demonstrably incorrect. Seamless balls actually bounce slightly higher than even celluloid in any test you can devise. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 10:03am
Logician, I think you have hit on part of it. The seamless balls are actually lighter than Chinese seamed 40+ balls (at least the seamed balls made about last summer). All of the DHS-made balls at that point were around 2.80g whereas the seamless are around 2.73-2.75. However, by January 1, 2016, all ITTF approved balls will have to be less than 2.75. I haven't checked recently, but it is possible that more recently made seamed ones are approaching this now). Nittaku Premium 40+ are lightest of all, at around 2.67. When you are playing with a ball, it is hard to feel weight. Sometimes a softer or deader ball feels heavier, (like trying to kick a football that is not fully inflated). It is quite likely that the best Chinese seamed ball you can buy at the moment is Butterfly 40+*. They still have a ways to go. Major issues persist with roundness and durability (and I still think the bounce should be a little bit higher), and as for prices, seamless is still the way to go. * the reason I say they are likely to be the best is they are very recently made. Last ones I tried were made in March of this year based on date stamp on the box. |
Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 11:15am
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I played with Joola 40+ yesterday and it was great. The production date is this April = one month ago. I could instantly play with it and almost felt no difference. Unfortunately it is noticeably slower and carries less spin but it is enjoyable. It is superior now to any seamless ball I have ever come accross. They still break very easily on edges, however. |
Posted By: ahsq
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 12:56pm
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Fact: the DHS 40+ *** seamed ball expanded permanently after I tried water boil the dent. Fact: It is now a 42+ ball. The celluloid balls have no trouble with the water boil method. These plastics cant stand boiling water so dont do it. ------------- FS: Xiom Vega Pro ST 85 grams $80 shipped Donic Waldner Senso Carbo JO shaped ST $40 shipped |
Posted By: ahsq
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 12:57pm
+2. ------------- FS: Xiom Vega Pro ST 85 grams $80 shipped Donic Waldner Senso Carbo JO shaped ST $40 shipped |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 1:33pm
This sounds great. Give us a regular play durability update. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 3:18pm
Great news |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 5:30pm
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DF 40+ NOVELTY Double Fish has just came out with a newly developed plastic, article #143 in the ITTF BALL'S ROLL. better durability/bounce I guess. |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 8:12pm
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THE HEFTY BALLS of 2.80 gramme WILL STAY IN PLAY FOREVER. Given two plastic specimens with different masses, say 2.73 and 2.80 grammes, I would pick up the heavier one without much ado. I am an engineer proficient, I know for a certainity -- the heavier ball will always survive longer, better shock resistance. BETTER SHOCK RESISTANCE. Always. this is the reason ITTF is going to allow those balls of 2.80 grammes on the market onwards, , in response to the many requests from the DHS ball makers. For the natural mechanical limitations of the plastic material, Ball Makers cant vouch of any good quality with a reduced ball mass under 2.80 g. So the heavy ball is a fair necessity. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/20/2015 at 9:42pm
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You should go back to engineering school and try to become more proficient. The DHS balls, which are heavier than XSF balls, have much less durability. The reports on this have come now from so many people (not just me) that there is simply no doubt about it. Obviously there is more to a ball's durability and playing properties than weight. Materials and structure matter more. In fact, unless things have changed recently -- which is certainly possible -- for a long time the heaviest balls were the DHS ones, and those were by far the least durable, even compared to DF, which are a little lighter. Also, ITTF has said nothing at all in any public forum that suggests they will change their weight standards for balls that are coming in January 2015. Every time Thomas Kueneth has been asked about it, he has reiterated that point. The more likely thing is that all the ball makers will figure out how to make better balls that comply with these rules. Hans made a comment that suggests they may be close to it now. We will all know soon enough. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 05/21/2015 at 2:38am
I've taken to practicing exclusively with 40+ balls because it was hurting my brain to go back and forth with celluloid. And while I have made it a point to get a good mix of many different 40+ balls, the largest portion are a mix of DHS seamed and XSF seamless. So at this point, I'm feeling comfortable playing with those two. My first observation is that I haven't heard nearly the breakage that has been reported in the forums. The balls have held up almost as well as celluloid and that includes some heavy play. We did have a XSF ball shatter this week when it hit the edge of a paddle (swinging very hard), but just that once. None of the DHS balls have cracked so far. So for durability, I consider both balls pretty durable. In fact, the most common breakage I've had (and it's still rare) is the Nittaku SHA balls. For playing, the seamless balls play differently than the seamed balls, that's for sure. DHS, Nittaku SHA, and Butterfly all play a lot more in common than with the XSF and Palio (who play similar). People who first try seamless after spending time with seamed 40+ balls are usually uncomfortable, but once they spend some time with the seamless, they really come to like it. Personally, I find the seamless harder to spin (which matches what I was told from a pro). I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out my "favorite" because every tournament seems to use a different ball. I use them all, with an emphasis on whatever i think I'm going to need next. Nittaku Premium 40+ balls may eventually become the most popular ball in USA (if supply can ever catch up with demand), but since they're not used in the ITTF pro tournaments, that means there will always be other (different) balls used in amateur tournaments as well. As for "weight": I haven't weighed any 40+ balls but I suspect they all weigh the same in measured grams. I know that I went to some effort a few years ago to get reliable average weights on the different brands of celluloid balls and with a few exceptions, they all weighed the same. I've been told (again, by a pro) that when balls feel like different weights, it's actually the hardness we feel. Oh, and I suspect ITTF won't make any decisions on the 2016 deadline for reducing ball weight until we get close to that deadline. The reason for allowing heavier balls (actual weight, not how it "feels") was to reduce breakage. If the lighter balls still break too much in 2016, then we can expect the higher weight allowance to be extended.
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Posted By: ppmax
Date Posted: 05/21/2015 at 1:22pm
That statement suggests that you are in no position to suggest anyone to "go back to engineering school and try to become more proficient". The comparison has to be apples to apples. DHS and XSF use different materials and techniques to produce the balls. So, "The DHS balls, which are heavier than XSF balls, have much less durability" doesn't prove anything, other than "those DHS balls are more prone to breakage than those XSF balls".
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/21/2015 at 2:07pm
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ppmax, you are right, and that's exactly my point. Igor is claiming that heavier balls are always better and more durable. That is not true, material and presence of a seam matter more than a few milligrams, especially for durability. By the way, I like the NP40+ balls too, but I am down to my last two and there still seems to be no place to get more. (NP40+ are also among the lightest balls sold today, not much different from lighter celluloid balls). |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/21/2015 at 2:16pm
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Benfb, a few comments. Nittaku SHA is made by DHS. Reports of durability problems on these balls are abundant. BUT, it is very possible that they are getting better recently, so maybe that is why yours didn't break. I have weighed these balls carefully using a very sensitive and calibrated balance. DHS and Joola balls (also made by DHS) that were manufactured last June weighed between 2.79-2.83 g. XSF from April 2014 are between 2.73 and 2.75 g. There was almost no overlap in readings. Also, Nittaku Premium 40+ are the lightest of all, less than 2.70 g (which makes them a bit lighter than even a lot of celluloid). There is no question that the DHS balls from last summer are heavier. I have not measured any balls made more recently. The question of course is whether those relatively small differences in weight matter? My personal opinion is actually that weight changes that small are probably less important than the other aspects of the way the ball plays that are based on properties of the material and whether or not there is a seam. Maybe that is what igor was trying to say, but going back and reading again, I don't think so. Finally, these weight differences are going to disappear by January 2016 if ITTF sticks by the standards they say they will impose then (2.75 gram upper limit). |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 05/21/2015 at 5:23pm
+1 Exactamundo! Well maybe except that I prefer the greater bounce of the seamless and I consider the NP40+ price to be ridiculous and not something I'd pay ongoing. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 05/21/2015 at 5:34pm
I've carefully measured the bounce of XSF 40+ balls and they are right at the maximum allowed by the ITTF. So I'd have to think that your perception of a low bounce is coming from some other attribute of the ball (slower?). ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 05/21/2015 at 7:17pm
I agree it is consistent and durable, I just don't think it is a good ball. It is still noticeably slower and less spinnier than celluloid, as well as plastic seamless balls. Its only difference from crappy balls like SHA or Joola is in better consistency and durability, but that's all it can boast about. ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/21/2015 at 7:26pm
NP40+ is rounder and somewhat higher bounce compared to Chinese seamed balls that have been our there for the last year. NP40+ still bounces lower than seamless, but everything does including celluloid. All of the 40+ balls are slower and less spinny than celluloid. The three issues most people have complained about regarding NP40+ are price and availability, and some people have worried about durability, but I think they are adequate in that regard. I think they are really good balls, only you can't get them. |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 05/21/2015 at 8:05pm
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If you are power hitter or counter smasher, the seamless XSF balls are the best by a country mile. All other plastic balls bounce lower than even celluloid when loaded with topspin, that's why loopers love them (lower bounces strongly favor attackers who loop first). ------------- Current USATT Rating: 2181 Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 05/21/2015 at 8:10pm
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The best seamed ball I have played with (so far) was Butterfly ***. You can spin it as good as the celluloid, speed is just a tad less than celluloid, quite round etc. However, it costs 3 dollars a pop and it breaks almost as fast as DHS/Joola/SHA and their ilk. ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |