Have a thought though about the relevance of technique and its changing fashion for perfection, and also why there are many players who attain Very high levels of play that show relatively poor technique even right into the top 20 players in the world.

 Ironically, most threads about technique perfection contain a clip of a top Chinese player showing 'how it should be' yet copying that, is probably the hardest route to take for a amateur player because it has been derived from a player who is at the top of the Chinese pyramid of enormous depth, players who have done little else but have it perfected by top coaches amidst huge competition from other players for a spot at the top In China. 

Only using him as an example, but would Kreanga with his technique have ever got anywhere near the CNT? 

 If you have limited practice time, limitations in the standard of practice partners, but would like to improve your rating, you are far better using your valuable time covering other aspects of TT than technique. 

 Service/touch/early point strategies and learning How to win are far more beneficial to your game within your level, and seriously, you get far more advantage asking the best player in your club how he got there, than spending hour after hour thinking that if you get a f/hand that resembles WLQ's its actually going to make a significant difference in your results. 

 The best source of information I have come across yet, is the 'Breaking 2000' and the 'next level' series of books, I have two pupils reading them now and they are just beginning to understand TT in a way that is relevant for them, both are showing great results.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5E4FsJG_oA

This one is 3 years old, he is the one in all black shirt

He uses a stiga blade and 2 donic sonex jp gold,  cant understand how he makes so much spin with thos rubbers.

 Im the opposite, I would rather win anyway possible, than not winning with beautiful Technic

I have a mate like that who practiced alone for a n hour a day with services joined coaching squads had one on one coaching ,looked great but just let others walk allover him in games

There are so many things you can do with a push stroke. Varying depth, direction, spin for example, but so so many players use a push as a spin based spoil tactic, hoping the opponent is let down by his lack of consistency based purely upon the amount of 'dig' or backspin he is facing. This works and completely backs up my argument, yet it is so limited by a player who is consistent at coping with it, His technique quality rises above, he is more polished  higher in standard.

So to beat him you have to do something else other than keep hacking backspin on the ball, he can cope with that.

Yes, But the Scottish national squad are never going to be world beaters are they? 

Not forgetting of course, that Juniors become seniors, and seniors were once juniors!

I am 52 yrs old and still ranked around 100 in English seniors, That is 35 years of 'no way back' against a new onslaught of juniors every one of those 35 years! Do I have perfect technique? far from it.

I was born and learn TT in the specific area of Asia that's really good with TT and over there we learn the basic techniques first. Adult players with "non standard" techniques can be really good, but their limits in technique make it's impossible for them to improve at some certaint point. The thing is TT technique has been perfected day by day. Few years ago, it's very rare to see the chiquita, now everyone does it after Zhang Jike for example. Strategies to play with it or against it then come after.  

 Well lets look at the numbers, 300 leagues in England, If every league produces at least 1 really good junior a year for the last 35 years, that means that there has been Around 10000 junior local number 1's since I became a senior. I didn't 'get better than them again' 95% never made my level in the first place. 

Here is the crux, I didn't achieve my top level until my 30's, I had reasonable technique as a junior, but improved massively in later life without improving my technique. Worked on other things.

Back to the original topic, do you think that you would be much better if you focused more on techniques when you just started?

Now that I am able to play backhand loops and blocks down the line through improved technique, a much wider array of tactics and patterns are available to me.

That is the core issue.  Everyone wants WLQ's forehand, but did you know it has a name?  And that there is a full-blown research paper on the bio-mechanics behind its invention?  Many can't even make out the details of the technical aspect of it.  And they expect to mimic that by studying some footage?

Yup. Bulk of posters here would be happy to break USATT 2000 (or slightly above that - let's face it, even 2300 does not get you far these days). And you can only get that far by focusing on polishing your FH form - in the end you don't get style points in TT. Game tactics, shot selection, serve/receive - all go long way to improving your win/loss record, even with imperfect strokes. 

I was looking at various posts thinking "I agree with this one" and then "I agree with that one" and then I realized I was pretty much agreeing with everything that Soul of Rock posted.

1) I'd rather play well, using good technique, and enjoy making wonderful shots than just focus on what it takes to win.

2) For any given level of technical skill, you can improve your game success by working on the game play such as tactics and strategy.  Ultimately, however, you're going to hit a ceiling until you improve your technical skills.  The only way to prevent those ceilings is to make technique a central part of your game from the beginning and at every stage.

3) You don't specifically have  to play like Wang Liqin to say you're working to improve your technique.  When you see what the 2600+ level players can do, you realize that incorporating better technique can just add to your power, your consistency, and your range of options.

Also, when I see 2600+ players, I know damn well that I'll never get to that level. Fact of life, but it does not stop me from enjoying TT.  

This I would be interested in. Is it publicly available?

Sadly, it is not, and it is in Chinese.

Yes technique first.

I've played against Kenny and also with him as a team mate, and he is a very good player, he is Scottish though, so you can't use him as an example of English juniors. There is no such thing as a 'UK no 20'.

Any player who is world class has world class technique by the very definition. 

What I am saying is that lots of players spend too much time trying to emulate the fine parts of world class technique, when they have no chance of achieving their objective. I know that technique is easy to understand visually and that is why many lower level players think its the answer to their prayers, but all they really need to do is get decent shape to their strokes and good footwork, then learn matchplay and develop their own style and quirks (what ever happened to that)

The ONLY way to develop good technique is by spending more time drilling than most have time for (Juniors aside) and the quirks of technique should be left to develop as long as they are within the required parameters of consistency, power, recovery and movement. Schlager is a great example of individuality being an advantage over the norm.

That is him, but it is the English ranking list, not the UK ranking list, there is no such thing. He is Scottish but appears on the English list because he is resident here. 

This is Kenny Lindsey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXF57Kv3VpY

http://web.onetel.com/~peterlugton/ttscotland.com/html/rankings.htm

 I'm saying that players can to a large extent find their own technique once they have the basic strokes and footwork, and there becomes a point where technique advancement is limited and players can improve

by utilising their available practice time on other aspects of the game.

My technique is mine and was developed when I was a junior in the late 1970's with limited coaching and lots of copying the styles of the top European players of the day. Its quite outdated now but I still know how to win against younger fitter players who easily out gun me in open play. 

As long as your technique is solid you can improve massively by thinking about what you can do with the tools you have got, rather than spending limited time on technique perfection which is completely time consuming if reasonable results are achieved.

However, I think it is good to work on proper fundamentals with a proper coach to improve technique just for health reasons. I see number of older players with bad technique with various bandages and pills to play through the pain. Many of these players can benefit and even improve their game by learning the proper fundamentals. 

So it depends largely on your goals. Additionally, it is always good to try and learn new things - it's very good for the brain and body. 

Yes, it is different from a biomechanical standpoint.  To explain how would best be left to another thread.

Not sure if this is the footage being discussed.

Interestingly enough, there's a dvd of a number of pro's warming up for tournaments, doing all the basic strokes (FH Loops, BH loops, serves, etc) Not one FH loop looked exactly the same. Including among the CNT players. They looked similar but not exactly the same.

Working on technique is great for developing good technique. Developing game strategies comes from putting together all the techniques learned. Developing service strategies involves putting together a string of strokes together along with using the correct footwork. And then there's open exchange tactics. But what little is talked about is developing the "feel" for the ball. Which is something I have been trying to work on. Does it come only through practice and experience? Does it come from reading the spin on the ball alone? All of the above?(my intuition says yes) Once the techniques get ingrained in your muscles, you can free your mind and just focus on the tactical aspects of the game (like placement) I'm also struggling with this aspect, of focusing less on the form and thinking more on placement during an exchange. My only regret is the little time I have for practice. :(

I'll have to pick up "Breaking 2000". Ive been curious about it for a long time. I did like his other book.

... and that is one great statement. +100!

I, too, happen to think that, especially at a certain age, there are things in TT more important to carefully consider than just technique if you want to progress in ranking/playing level. 

This is so rarely mentioned here, thank you, APW46, for bringing this up.

Yes this exactly what I am talking about, Anyone can copy the style whilst drilling, and It may be the most perfect form seen to date, but some spend needless hours trying to emulate this in matches only to be so inconsistent that it is a handicap. Its only the hammer that knocks the nail in, if you have a blindfold to the rest of your game you can't see the nail.

Yes this exactly what I am talking about, Anyone can copy the style whilst drilling, and It may be the most perfect form seen to date, but some spend needless hours trying to emulate this in matches only to be so inconsistent that it is a handicap. Its only the hammer that knocks the nail in, if you have a blindfold to the rest of your game you can't see the nail.

[/QUOTE]

Well I guess if I am going to be a blindfolded hammer then I might as well try to be a gold plated one.

Mark -  Who often asks himself "Can I really shadow stroke in the dark?"

APW46, if this note of mine is hijacking your intended topic, my apologies, but your thread has just touched a sensitive button in my soul. Too often I have been told by "good, 2000-level players" that I hold the racket too loosely, or too tightly, or that I move too much, or that I do not move enough, or that I should put pips on BH, and when I did that I should not put them... Yet I still derive great satisfaction on a rare occasion when I play a 500 ranking points higher rated looper and get him 3:2 because I just knew where his loops will land and what kind of serves drive him nuts. Of course he has better technique but I was able to surprise him more than he surprised me. 

I hope "good, 2000 level players" fully get this.

 Perfect ! all of it.

No, we do not or maybe nothing you have written has convinced me.  Technique has generally being considered to be about form.  Things like game reading skills are not technique.  The form of footwork and strokes are technique.  There is serving technique, looping technique, blocking technique, footwork technique, pushing technique etc.  People would not say that there is "game reading technique" or "stroke preparation technique" or "spin reading technique" though one could venture that way given the modern impetus to classify everything.

There are many techniques for looping, the efficient ones sharing some common things, especially at the world class level. But I don't need a world class loop for what I do and I doubt you do either.  What I need is something that puts the ball with sufficient margin where I want it when I want it in response to as many balls as possible.  And that is only going to happen if the motion comes naturally to me and I can produce it upon demand.  I can teach people to loop even better than I can in 5 minutes if they get the natural part - of course, they likely don't have the game reading skills that I have built up so it won't make a difference in a match in 5 minutes, but if they build up the ball reading skills, it can make a big difference fairly fast.  

It's the ones who want to make it about the foot being precisely here, the elbow being exactly here, the neck turned to the 47.85 degree angle, the paddle at the 79.99 degree angle that never get anywhere because they really don't have time to do all either in training or in matches.  And the time it takes to learn all that for an adult can be spent doing things that actually win matches.  Most adults would learn to loop in 5 minutes if they tried to do things like swing the ball like a golf club, or throw frisbees with both sides or do a proper punch in martial arts form etc.  Part of the benefit of that kind of thinking is that you don't develop a stilted stroke - you realize that you can adjust the stroke to contact anywhere on the ball by changing the trajectory of what you are doing.  People who do it by some mechanical rote end up just repeating the same motion over and over again because they find it hard to adjust it to anything other than the ball they practiced it against.

The best shadow swings I've seen was by a Russian tennis player - Vera Zvonareva (sp?) she simulated her serve and then she did it in reverse - I was so stunned I forgot to hit record on my camera and missed it. 

As it is with all sports table tennis as a very complex matter. The better you become the more you have to train all the parts of the sport to become better. You can come far by just training one aspect of TT but to become better you need to train the things that hold you back.

In my mind there are the aspects of pure technique(the combined motions of your body parts for performing one stroke), reading the ball(spin, speed, trajectory and adapting your stroke to it), strategy(how to play that you can use your strength or how you can use your oponents weaknesses), talent and one thing I'm not so sure how to call it.

Talent will help in everyzhing but less in strategy. People that are more talented than others need to train less to achieve the same result than others. It is by much on low levels and by very few on high levels.

Technique explains itself. But one thing about technique I want to say is that only those strokes that you can reliably do again and again and again will win you games. That is not very special but it will make sense later.

This one thing I'm not so sure how to name it. If you are in a match you are in very dynamic surroundings. A lot of different shots are made. Your trained strokes are under a big test. One thing that seperates the top chinese players from the rest in my opinion is that they are so stable in their play. Sure they make mistakes. It is an up and down, a going forward and back like in a rope pull game but in many different ways. But in general the chinese have very well developed strokes that they can pull out in very different situations. They can do their forhand loop for example from many different positions. They can pull off the stroke even when they are cought off guard with completely messed up footwork. For me this is one thing I seek after. Beeing able to pull of the strokes I learned from all imaginable positions. 

I guess that I will have to learn how to perform the most important part of the stroke which is the motion of the blade shortly before and after ball contact detached from the movement of my other body parts. Well if I think about that I realize how crazy that sounds. But I guess that is what the world elite in TT seperates from the rest.

The advantage of this skill is that you can perform your shots even if you are in a bad position. On average that will increase the amount of points you can win which will directly result in more games won, in more matches won and thus in a higher ranking. 

Damn if I listen to myself I sound like a salesman.  Pls don't let it disturb you.

And then there are two things that only apply to one specific enemy and I think it is most likely used only by pros. One of those things is studiing your enemy's play style. Their favourite strokes, their go to tactics and their weaknesses. If you know all of those things you can adapt all of the elements of your game to it. If you do that you will principally counter your oponent. And if she or he is not massively better than you then you will either have an even playing ground or if she/he is at same technical level you will mostly just outplay her/him and win.

And then the other thing is similar but on a whole different level which I only heard from the CNT. They have TT players that try to mimik the playing characteristics of the next enemy let's say Timo Boll that the top CNT player let's say Ma Long will face so that Ma Long can train on how to play against Timo Boll without even palying against him. And that will enhance your ability to perform those countering shots even better.

In conclusion: The more times you can perfrom your stroke the more you win. I guess.

Those are my thoughts on this subject.

I am also the analytical type and I know from experience in other sports (i have not played enough table tennis in the last few years to make it count, but I am a fairly decent martial artist and I can draw on that), in order for me to own a technique or a tactic or a strategy, I need to really break down the mechanics and understand them.  Without that, drilling does nothing for me.  Once I break down the mechanics of the technique and really understand it, I own it.  At that point, I also start modifying it to fit my ability and my body and my game strategy.  However, I can't really mold it into a perfect fit for me, until I fundamentally understand it.

I have seen other people arrive to the same point by a lot of repetition and natural evolution of the technique, but that simply does not work for me.  I have to understand and visualize.

Adapting to different tactics and stretegy is no different.  I have barely had time to practice since my kids were born, but I still enjoy laying and practicing, so I gave it a lot of thought and changed my game.  I spent what little time I had on serve and serve return drills, while fighting my natural tendency to cream the ball.  Despite playing twice a month, my playing level has not dropped much overall, but I win points differently (and I wasn't very good to start with).  I get a lot more mileage out of my serve than I used.  My serve return is a lot safer than it used to be, so I let the other miss an extra point or two.  I focus on looping slower and spinnier if we get past the serve/serve return.  That sounds like a very simple change, but it really was not.  I had to spend a lot of time internalizing that and then setting up drills for it. 

The basic process for adopting a new tactic or strategy for me is not different from developing a new technique.  I jave to really understand it to make it my own.

ILya

No, you are not.  Sometimes, a man has got to know his limitations.

If your attempts to improve your technique lead you to possible injury in the future, wouldn't that be a reason enough to foresake technical improvement somehow because you can improve at other things that will still help your game?  We can pretend technical improvement is always without injury risk but anything that involves extensive physical practice is not.  The key question is whether one's technique is serviceable or not.  Again, in the context of my original question, let's say your technique is like Brian Pace or Saive and you believe superior technique like Ma Long or Zhang Jike, if you are over 40 years old, should you spend your time acquiring the technique of the latter or should you just improve your ability to use your current technique?

Again, the question is not about whether you need technique that checks the boxes, or whether there is a technical ideal box that fits all sizes and whether it is worth it acquiring that technique just for its own sake.

I think ending that obsession begins with understanding the role of ball reading skills and stroke adaptation in a person's playing strength.

Could you post a video of your teaching someone to loop with late timing and proper technique?  You are an ITTF certified coach so surely you must do this all the time.

I think this is a very interesting thread.  I strongly agree with the original poster - but don't necessarily disagree with many other opinions.  While I think that "adequate" technique is a requirement, the definition of adequate varies tremendously depending on level, tactics, physical ability (or limitation), and most definitely goals and aspirations.

My biggest and quickest jump came from working with a coach who stressed footwork, balance, and anticipation.  We drilled 100% on those items at first.  His mantra (for me, at that time) was "getting to the correct position, in time, and balanced will allow almost any stroke to work".  My level of play - based primarily on the players I could beat at the club - went up drastically after a couple months.  I still had (still do!) have huge holes in my game, but I was now able to capitalize on many, many more of my opponent's mistakes and generally put them under much more pressure.

My next biggest jump came from the same coach after he started working with me on my serves, serve returns, and third ball attacks.  But he didn't worry about this till after working on the above for a long time.  Sadly, he moved away before fixing all the other holes in my game!

I think that technique is important, but lovely technique does not trump tactics, anticipation, footwork, service skill, serve return skill, experience, or a number of other things.

All other things being relatively equal though, better technique can definitely become an advantage. More efficient strokes - which tend to lead to easier power, easier spin, more consistency, better finishing position, quicker recovery, and easier balance really matter when the other guy/gal has similar "other abilities".

bes

 Yes, exactly the point. That coach of yours is a gem. I never dismiss technique as an important part of any players game, and with out a doubt players displaying good sound technique show the best potential, for their own personal situation. However having a realistic potential and actually achieving it are two different things. Locally, we all live in areas with 'champions' of towns, districts etc, and there are two types, ones that have been trained to international level sometime in their history, and are now playing more recreationally, they never lose their class and carry it until they drop off through age, but there are many who just manage to find out how to rise above all around them. Dedication over the rest is the major factor because increased dedication on the table usually brings increased knowledge as well, but there is a danger, and I personally wasted about 10 years after my initial formative years, falling for it, so I do speak from experience, In was not until my early 30's that I got the right advice on where to look as to why 10 years of believing that drilling for a better technique enters into the realms of diminishing returns when considering results on the table. Today, my technique is from the 1970's, and not the best from that era either, but I am still in the top 1 percent ranking wise in my country

 ( hanging on just) at over 50 years old. So guys think about it, There are everywhere, old gits like me that are better than you, and I can guarantee 100% non of them are better because they set WLQ as their technique model.

Thanks - the answer shows you still don't understand the topic, but it's okay.

 I am not advocating that at all, I did say, once the basic strokes are to a useable standard, meaning not striving for international standard technique at the expense of learning how to win.

Everyone has said this, and I even went out of my way to chastise someone who I know was trying to argue that his bad technique is compensated by his supposedly good game reading skills, but yogi_Bear is not reading what anyone is saying.

No one posting here in support of APW46, including myself, would teach anyone bad technique.  But I have students and/or people asking questions in their 50s and 60s and 70s, some learning for the first time, some with ambitious goals, and once they can hit the ball well and with good basic form, I am not going to push them to bend their knees all the time or look like Ma Long.  Doing so would injure some of them, though others can take it.  It is time to teach them how to set up points, how to make the opponent move, how to read spin, how to think about serving, the importance of blocking etc. Technique supports all those things, but the goal is never to strive for perfect or world class technique.  In the long run, as I am there to coach them in person, the technique is largely developed to be effective in the typical situations they will face.  

 I just loved watching the quality serves from both players, haven't got a clue who they are, but they are fantastic players.