Can someone explain what he's saying from 9:37 onwards? Reverse pendulum for backhand dominated player, so it goes to the middle, to prevent them from blocking wide to the forehand?

If it goes to the middle they still can, but is it better because you're already in the middle so you can easily reach both sides?

Thanks

 

Thanks :) now I just have to practice my reverse! I find it so hard to get short.

There is no point in wasting that much time learning the reverse pendulum serve when you can get the same ball rotation with a backhand serve facing the table.

I wouldn't say it's a waste of time. Although the spin is similar, you tend to get better deception and also more flexibility (serving two kinds of sidespin from the same stance) with the reverse pendulum. 

I personally don't use it as a bread and butter serve, because it's just too complicated to master and the return on your spin can be quite nasty as well. I very much prefer the half-tomahawk and the hook serve which allows me great control on the placement and spin and the backswing is almost identical with the pendulum serve, giving a great deal of surprise to the opponents. 

That's a poor analogy, just like saying, there's no point saving money to buy a Benz if you have a lower quality functional car.

Backhand serve has way less deception which is significant once you pass a certain level threshold.

Ok, but my point was there is significantly more deception if you can do a reverse properly, which, once you pass the threshold level that the majority of players can fully read your backspin serves, it won't be difficult to serve a decent reverse. Make sense? 

It's not about the magnitude of the spin, it's about how you can use it (via deception) against your opponent :)

Nah, pendulum serves are better for forehand oriented players. Reverse serves are for backhand oriented players, tactically.

You want to be in the dominant position, which is using your forehand on the backhand side, jammed to the opponent's backhand. If you open up with forehand on the forehand side, you will be playing to their strength, and playing down the line is weaker and will allow them to force you wide to the backhand.

Personally, once I identify the serve as a RPS serve, I automatically angle the bat towards your BH side to counteract the sidespin as that is the safest way of handling the ball. This leads to more often than not the ball being placed there... the down-the-line push to your FH is of higher risk (because you're essentially borrowing the opponent's spin, and there's less table length to work with) and going to the FH of a FH dominant player is usually suicide :(

I notice that a lot of my hook serves (which have the same amount of sidespin) also get pushed back to my BH in a similar fashion, not many players dare to play the return down the line to my FH...   

Now if you serve the RPS to the FH-short corner, most likely you would be facing a short push to your FH/middle corner, a long-push to the middle, or a flip in general. For shakehand players this serve is kryptonite as the FH receive there is just not very flexible unlike the BH. The problem with serving to the FH-short corner is there's a lot less room for error in terms of serve length, it is very easy to accidentally serve long and get punished by the opponent's FH loop.  

 

Huh? This thread was to discuss optimal tactics depending on playing style, looking at two polar extremes (complete forehand biased vs backhand biased player)

Against some people, mixing up serves is the only viable way to go.  Against others, I can sit on one serve for a while until they get used to it.  It really varies.

ILya

Yeah agree,

Ovtcharov has a nasty pendulum, ZJK and FZD always had.

Ma Long, Mizutani, Yan An have the occasional reverse, notice that they rarely serve it as often as their BH oriented compatriots.

This.

Much of the other claims in the thread don't make sense.

Yes, this makes sense.

However, it is a very unflexible approach.

I am a VH dominant player. I use the RPS a lot. Due to the sidespin I impart on the ball, the return of the opponent always tends towards my VH side. Although my opponents need to direct their bat towards my backhand side to compensate for the sidespin, they almost always return to my middle or VH side. Since I know in advance that the return will probably be directed towards the middle/vh side, I am able to attack with my dominant VH. Of course I position myself more to the middle in case I use the RPS.

Even when it makes sense that you will serve in a way to prevent your opponent from out-placing you it makes even more sense to serve in a way to be able to attack with your dominant side.  

Maybe if you reach a very high level it is more important to prevent your opponent from attacking your weak spot after your serve, but I see myself in a dominant position when serving. Therefore I am trying to serve in a way to open up with my dominant VH and even my main practice partner, who is a former national team member and German Bundesliga player, cannot out-place me into my wide VH after using the RPS.

Furthermore there is one prominent example for a VH dominant player who is using the RPS a lot: Timo Boll.

That is the reason why I made this thread!! It seems counter intuitive but Bran and Emratthich clearly and logically explain why this is a thing.

Ovtcharov, FZD, ZJK all have killer reverse/bh serves.

Ma Long/Yan An/Ding Ning have their trademark pendulum and REVERSE tomahawk serves (which has the same spin as pendulum, ever wonder why DN doesn't use normal tomahawk)?

Boll switches grips heavily between forehand and backhand, so while his forehand is arguably better than his backhand, he has a strong backhand as well due to the change in grips.

Of course, Ma Long has a reverse and ZJK has a pendulum, and while it isn't "ideal" for their game, it is needed to create serve diversity which is just as important at an elite level

SmackDAT wrote: That is the reason why I made this thread!!

So you did start this thread NOT to discuss about this topic?

You only wanted to have your/ EmRatThich's opinion confirmed?

Yes, I was unsure as to whether this was a thing, Emratthich himself validated it on the thread!

He is mocking SmackDat's approach to the thread.

More seriously, I agree with you.  While I agree with Emrathich and Bran's logic, I find that what is more important in my practice is the kinds of returns that you get. There is no need to argue too strongly with SmackDat, he will develop his own opinions over time.  The most backhand oriented player in my club can't do a backhand serve or a reverse pendulum serve even if you paid him to.