I have dabbled with medium pips and have used them quite a bit. Medium pips, Gambler Peacekeeper on my Cpen blade. I do not play RPB and I am fairly attack-oriented but I have a very strong backhand punch-block and flat hit. I do try to convert as my backhands into a forehand as possible.

My main setup though is inverted on single-ply blades, but I find pips-out to be a fun change as well.

Sorry if my reply is not what you were looking for since Peacekeeper is medium pips, not short-pips. 

Tibhar Speedy Soft Dtecs 2.0 Red

agressive counterhitter.

Shakehands

Spinpips blue FH

T05 Hard BH

Fairly aggressive all-rounder, right up at the table. Flat forehand, strong backhand loop. Emphasis on position and spin over raw power.

I´m a blocker and counter-attacker.

TT-Japan store

If the player is not used with SP the deception of booster SA is enough to win points on flat hits but Rakza PO is way more deceptive. Maybe after Waran experiment I'll come back to Rakza PO.

I think it´s bad. I mean, when you compare with 38mm ball the new one is worse to play with SP.

SP game has speed as main weapon and the bigger the diameter of the ball, less speed you will generate.

But SP penhold hitters need the incoming spin to maximize counter attacks. With less spin counters are also less effective. It´s not coincidence the style disappeared after 40mm ball was introduced.

I think it more suited to play with shakehand short pimple today since i think it is easier or more natural to use the body while smashing forehand with shakehand. I agree with you that penholders usually play alot more counterhitting closer to the table. 

I do not know if the ball had anything to do with short pimple players disappearing. I think China had a hard time against europe and especially sweden and needed to change something to win more. They became more successfull with the looping game and kept on doing that. Then i feel that they tried to keep their winning concept.  But maybe they did not succeed with the short pimple play anymore because of the ball, so you might be correct. 

Here in sweden the short pimple style is not forgotten. Since Mattias Falck is doing well there are pretty many players using short pimple pretty successfull with short pimple on the forehand. I think it is alot about that coaches do not have enough knowledge about material and how to use short pimple so therefor alot of players do not try this style. 

I do think the ball is really affecting choppers. Especially pushblockers. They do not get enough spin so they are forced to become more offensive. I do not think it is a good idea to become a chopper today. But then again, Ma Te is doing retty well it seems so if it works for one it can work for more. 

Good discussion!

Amelie Solja is still top 100 using this style, so it can hardly be seen as extinct! As you go down the ranks, the style pops up more often as well. 

Sriram Sushmit does it at a pretty high level for men's game also. 

Whereas more passive pushblockers suffer from lack of spin, the blocker + aggressive hitter still has many opportunities to catch the opponent off guard. 

I know a guy that uses long pimple and short pimple and i find it intersting that players choose to play with long pimple or anti on the bh and short pimple on the fh. I think they would get to many balls with backspin on the forehand and short pimple is in my opinion useless on that kind of ball. But maybe they get some opportunities to smash when people loop against the backspin. 

You block loops with the anti and it results in back spin -- which the opponent tries to reloop, so you block again. Or they push it back, often times too high -- and then you smash those with the short pips. Your pushes have to very low and tight, otherwise they get smashed. Amelie is top 100 for a reason! Her FH is lethal against those. 

Yeah, it will proable be pretty good chances to smash when the push is high or when they loop. but i still think against good pushes, the opening loop with short pimple is really bad compared to inverted and i do not think good players push high very often so alot of times they need to do just a opening loop. And i think they get more long pushes against themselves compared to players with inverted rubber on the bh since they make backspin with the anti or long pips. Good players will proably loop back very well at those opening loops with the short pimple and you will have a hard time to win that point. I play with short pimple on the forehand on a pretty high level so i know this ball is a big disadvantage of using short pimples. 

But like you said, she is top 100 and the indian guy is also pretty good so it still works! But i do think short pimple on the forehadn is better combined with a inverted rubber on the backhand since i think these kind of players tend to not get as much long pushes to the forehand. But the players with anti or long pips proably get alot of good slow topspins that they can smash compared to a player with inverted on the bh. 

I feel that i have said a lot of negative things about anti and long pimple on the backhand here, but i do really like the diversity. I also think it is bad that we changed the ball and banned the long pimples with no friction because i think this blocking style will not be used so much in the future because you do not get so much spin anymore. 

i agree that people with inverted on the forehand tend to be more fh oriented. I think it is more difficult to be as fh oriented with fh short pips since you need to hit the ball more on the highest point and if you come wrong you can only lift the ball. 

That is impressive!! Is she a pro that changed from short pimple to inverted? Imagine all the time she put down to become good at the short pimple and then change. How is she doing now? ahaa, maybe she do not use it so much. 

Okay, thats interesting. I think you need better footwork with short pimple. and i do not think you should loop with your pimple.  Are your short pimple very soft? since it is possible to have not crazy good footwork and almost loop. 

Yes, okay! of course it works to loop with short pimple but i find it strange. Short pimple is made for Smashing, if you want to loop i think you should use an inverted rubber instead since it works much better to loop with inverted.

Hard question! I do not know if there are more players with pips in Sweden than in other countries, but we have some coaches that is good at equipment and to teach how to use it. And i would think that if some people find success with it, like Mattias Falck or Fabian Åkerström, then other players will also start to use it. 

I think Rakza PO is quite popular since Mattias Falck use it, Haifu Dolphin and Penguin is also pretty popular i think and i also know some guys that use the medium pips keiler. But i think it is hard to say that everyone uses a certain pips rubber, there are proably many different rubber out there in sweden. 

I agree with your coach that you need to chose the right balls, but if you loop more than you smash you should change to inverted. If you can smash all the time and you are not missing, then i think you could smash all the time. 

If you do a bad loop to an easy place for your opponent, well... you can expect to have it killed.

But with good placement, the SP player is ready to either block it back or hit it back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOwhWX9e92A

I would say not only well placed, but also disguised loop. When I loop with SP my opponent never knows the amount of spin because it´s not like an inverted rubber loop, so he is not used to it.

It´s usual my opponent block my loop into the net because it does not have the spin he figured it had.

you absolutely have no clue what you are talking about, a loop/roll shot will always be neccessary if you want to attack balls lower than the net, it's not only effective to setup your kill shot but also a pure neccessity.

I really do think that i know what i am talking about since i played this style myself for over 10 years at a pretty high level, and i also had the same coach as Mattias Falck for many years. I think that some of the comments here are from people that do not have used short pimple so long but i think it is a little rude to say that they have no clue what they are talking about. 

 i think you are correct and misunderstood me. In my opinion it is pretty obvious that you can not smash every ball and need to loop when the ball is not at his highest point and lower than the net. If you followed the discussion from the beginning, you could see that i wrote that you should try to to smash when you can but you need to chose the correct balls. 

So of course you need to loop to open the ball against a push and when the ball is lower than the net like you say. So it is a necessary shot like you say but this is not a good ball for a short pimple rubber since you do not get much spin compared to inverted and that it is difficult to play hard at push compared to inverted. That is why i said looping is close to useless with a short pimple, i think it is compared to an inverted rubber and should be avoided if possible. I do not think we can call this shot effective for a short pimple player.  If you look at Mattias Falck one of his weakest shot is when he open with the short pimple against a push. Good players use that he do not got so much spin on the ball and they know he have it very difficult to play hard the first ball, so they know it will be a pretty soft ball with little spin so they can counterloop his opening loop pretty well. 

A short pimple is made for smashing, and if your footwork is not good enough to take the ball at the highest point so you can smash and instead need to loop all the time maybe you should try playing with an inverted instead. I do think it is difficult to play at a somewhat high level if you are going to loop with a short pimple to much, good players will destroy you if you do that ball. 

Why was he strongly against it? i think he resonate strange. If you do not have so spinny strokes, you have natural flat hits and these shots are your strengths i can not see why he thinks you should play with inverted. Like i said before, if you want to loop with short pimple i think it is better to have inverted, but if you want to flat hit with inverted it would proably be better to use short pimple. 

I do not know your coach, but i can imagine that if he do not know much about pimples and how to play with them he then thinks you should avoid them and use inverted. 

And i think if he want you to play with inverted, he need to help you to get more spin on the shots. 

I have been a coach for many years for kids, and i think that closing the angle of the racket so you hit over the ball and then accelerate with the forearm(and wrist on the backhand) is the most important things to be able to get spin on the loops. 

From what i have learned from been playing with pips for a while is that it is important to focus at:

 

Hit the ball at the highest point, if you hit it lower you can not smash and if yu try you will proably miss since you do not get any arch like an inverted. so good footwork is very important. 

Have a an open racket angle. Since you do not want spin and want to hit flat you should have an open racket angle

if you want to smash you need to accelerate and do an explosive motion. you want to 

Have a short contact with the ball so you need to stop after you have hit the ball. 

Important to have good shot selection. Like you said you sometimes can not smash because the ball is to low and i feel that sometimes players want to hit all the time but then they will miss. 

try to do the same stroke and move the legs instead. This is important for all players but maybe more for short pimple players. 

I also think that you maybe need to practice alot more since playing with short pimple since it is a game with small margins. It is that because you really need to go for the shot and do an explosive motion if you want smash. if you are not explosive enough you the ball will just die and nothing will happen. And with less spin, the ball will not go in an arch and then land on a table, it will just go straigth and out. Because of this it is really important to hit the ball at the highest point, so need better footwork so really can do that cause the lift with pips when you come wrong is not as good as the loop with inverted.

I think that if you have a spinny loop and want to play further back and hit the ball later it would proably suit you better to use a inverted rubber. But that is just my opinion. 

Maybe you have the same problem as me. When i want to loop hard on the backand i usually drop the racket down. So if i am further away and contact the ball a little later this is perfect for me since then i get the ball by the racket. But this do not work for me since i can not smash forehand then. 

By dropping the racket i also have trouble go over the ball and loop forward when i am close to the table since the ball is over my racket and the only way for me to hit the ball is to hit upward and brush behind the ball so i get alot of arcch and spin but no power. But i want power, so i need to lift up my elbow higher so the ball is by the racket, then i can come over the ball and hit forward and get a harder ball. I think many do the same fault as my, that they do not have the racket high enough. If you try to have the racket higher up you proably will be faster and have more time to hit the backhand at fast exchanges. Look at the chinese when they play against topspin, they have the racket very high. And we do only need to lower the racket against backspin, since we need to bring the ball up, but against topspin it is already topspin in the ball so it is not necessary to drop the racket low. 

I have talked way to much now, and i do not know if this make sense. hard to explain technique with texh but hopefully it maybe can help you a little. 

Where you from? 

I have been at a camp at Eslöv when i was young. Not the funniest place on earth haha. Very very small place. 

Are you going to join theirs training group or are they having a camp? 

Eslöv is highly regarded in Sweden as a good tabletennis place! I think there is alot of good players there and good coaches so it is proably good! Peter Sartz is a coach there and i think he knows his stuff. 

Halmstad is also a good tabletennis city in sweden! They proably have a good training group and good coaches! Tickan, old national player in Sweden and used to be Swedens coach is a coach there. Fredrik Håkansson, also old national player is also a coach there. 

Söderhamn is good aswell! I have also been there at a camp, you can live above the training hall so it is very practical. They also have good players and good coaches. Peter Blomkvist, current swedish coach is a coach in söderhamn. I also think Thomas von Scheele, old national player and coach might be coaching there but i am not sure. 

I you are going to a camp i do not know how good the opponents are,but if these places have a camp i think alot of players will come, proably some good aswell and they will proably have good coaches aswell. 

How old are you? i think that if you are going to a camp it will be alot of kids, teenagers and young adults. So i do not know how you feel about that. 

And if you are going in the summer and also want vacation i think Halmstad is a pretty nice place to be in the summer. 

If you are older maybe you can try Japskos camp for adults. But these are often just one weekend. And they players are not crazy good, so it might not be good practice for you. But i think it vary alot from ccamp to camp and sometimes they have good sparring.  Marcus Sjöberg, one of my old coaches that knows alot about equipment owns the company so he is often a coach at those camps so you could proably get alot of help with the short pimple play. I went to one of those camps, mostly to get help  from the coaches since the standard of the players were not very high but some where good so it worked. The coaches there were Marcus Sjöberg, coach for England, Peter Blomkvist, coach for Sweden and Jon persson, national player in Sweden. So if you find the right Japsko camp it could benefit you alot. 

I know that Japsko offer video analysis, where you send your video to Sjöberg and he gives you tips. Maybe this could be something for you. i do not know the cost thou. Do not know if their site is in English, but if you are interested i could help you translate if the site is just in swedish. I also know that Sjöberg does some private coaching, and if you go to sweden maybe you can contact him about it. 

Let me know what you chose! 

I do not know if it is possible to train there in the summer. It would proably be easiest to attend a training camp if they have one of those. And for their regurlary training i do not know if they have breaks in the summer, but if they do not have that i would be surprised that they do not let you practice there. but how good practice it will be for you, proably depends alot on your level and who they will let you train against. I think it is easiest if you try to contact them and ask them this directly. 

I think the video analysis would give you very much since in my opinion i think the coach knows his stuff. but i do not want to promise anything haha. 

here is the site: https://www.nordictabletennis.com/videoanalyser-25921396 

But it seems that it is only in Swedish. Maybe you can try to translate. 

I can help you a little. With the video analysis the coach analyse three areas: technique, tactics and equipment. They write you a mail and tell you this and you will get a 15 minutes talk with the coach were you can go through the report. 

The cost is: 

1 hour 800 kronor

5 hour 3000 kronor

10 hour 5000 kronor. 

I have almost never seen Scheele play so i do not know. 

Hans Thalin put the short pimple on Falck. I think he works in Karlskrona now for Lyckeby BTK. Marcus Sjöberg is like the novice(is it called this? like student) of Thalin, he worked alot with him when he started out. He is coach at the tabletennis school in Köping, for England and he does camps for Japsko. They have both alot of knowledge and is known to be good with pimples. I have had both of them as coaches and they are also very nice and friendly. 

I think private coaching with them almost will give you the most. I do not know if Thalin does this, but i know Sjöberg does this to some players. If you are going to Sweden maybe you can contact them beforehand and see if they can help you. Maybe i can help you contact Sjöberg, but i think it would be better if you try to contact him through the link above or through japsko. He could also help you with contact to Thalin. But i think these coaches do not have so much time, and have alot of other tabletennis commitments so it migth be very difficult to get private coaching. 

I went to one of his and Mikael Appelgrens camps when i was young. Can not remember much, so do not know if it was any good. I have not heard about him alot and do not know where he is coaching, i also do not know how good he is. 

No disrespect intended, but I think this is not correct at all. There are a lot of differences between short pimple rubbers. There are many other factors to be consider other than just the grippyness of the topsheet itself. Firstly we must consider the sponge. Even the same topsheet will play much different on OX, 1.5, or max sponge. The sponge thickness makes a huge difference. There are also various different types of sponges available such as hard, soft, medium, tensor, dead sponges, etc...  

Another point of consideration is also pimple alignment. As a shakehand player, I personally prefer horizontally aligned pimples on my backhand side. If you want to make any spin, its difficult to face vertically aligned pimples on your backhand at the correct angle required for spin generation. Vertically aligned pimples are generally more suitable for my forehand side. With vertically aligned pimples on my forehand, I find it easier to adjust the bat angle so that I can make spin balls when I want and flat balls when I want. Also, it all depends on your style of play, your strokes, and how you hold the racket. 

You can try! but i think you need to give it atleast several months before you decide it is not for you. In my opinion it is much more difficult to play with short pimple compared to inverted since you need to hit the ball at the highest point and since the ball go straight because it is almost no spin. And playing with two pimple rubbers i even more difficult! So i think you need to practice alot, move the legs alot and try to hit the same stroke everytime. But i think if you have a natural flathit and have a hard time making spin you could try it. 

Try searching Jonathan Thimon on youtube, it is a junior or is it cadett? national player in sweden using pips on both sides. He was not very good in sweden before, but then Sjöberg put two pimples on both sides and he became the top in his age. 

Try searching Anton Andersson on youtube. Thalin put double pimples on him. 

Try searching Johnny Huang. 

There you have some inspiration. I think it is alot of fun to play with pimples, but difficult. You can se on the videos that it is possible to become good with the style. The two swedish guys are both playing in the second highest league in sweden  i think. Compared to many other countries the level there is high. Johnny huang were a pro, beat Waldner in the olympics. Good luck!

I´ve had both but don´t play with any of them anymore. Both were max thickness available.

Waran has a hard topsheet and a regular sponge that I wouldn´t call "tensioned". Balls are not catapulted like it happens with Rakza PO or Impartial XB, those are true tension short pips. Do not believe comments about its speed because it´s not that fast. 

Waran is good to block and flat hit. Spin is just average. A good SP but not for my game.

Spinpips Red is much faster than Waran, however I found this SP has a very short life span. When new, it excels at speed and spin, but after a month it just dies. I can´t explain but it lost all dynamic features that I found amazing when out of pack. I had the same issue with BTY Flarestorm 2, excellent when new and dead after a month.

Control is not great with none of them, both SP are made for attacking game, and they also don´t reverse spin. If you play more defensively I recommend something old school, like Friendship 802 or DHS 652. And if you want a faster (and better, IMO) tension SP I would go with Rakza PO.

Well, SP on shakehand BH is unknown land to me... I´m a penholder SP with inverted in BH.

But Ito Mima´s Moristo SP looks very good on BH, or maybe it´s just her... have you already tried Moristo SP?

I think the loops from the female pros is proably of higher quality compared to many of male amateur players. 

serr wrote: does moristo have good feel? I find most short pips very mushy and slow except that one 802 with orange sponge, it had that sharp feeling with lovely cracking sound, had it only been a little spinnier

Compared to 802, just about all modern pips feel mushy. My conclusion is that sharp cracking feel comes from the hard topsheet. All tensor pips (and inverted for that matter) nowadays seem to go for the soft and thin top sheet trend. Unfortunate really.

Try your 802 on a soft tensor sponge. I find the hard topsheet+soft bouncy sponge amplifies the cracking sound. Although your blade matters even more (very hard to get cracking with alc blades).

On one setup I have 802 over Hexer sponge, would hazard an even softer sponge would feel crispier yet. This combo is faster than the original Hexer pips.

Cheers.

Good point. Some glues are very hard to remove, I've ripped enough sheet to shed a tear. But towel, iron, and time works.

Never tried 102, but (IMO) Hexer is one of the mushiest I've tried, fairly soft pips on medium soft sponge. The old Chinese "cooked" pips are still the best in the crackling department. 802, 802-40, 651 on a tensor sponge is excellent albeit slightly expensive option. TSP spinpips comes second, although still softer vs Chinese pips.

For a cheaper "80% performance" option, the AK47 blue sponge comes close to tensors and topsheet it easy to remove (careful though because the sponge is easy to rip).

Or just get a thinner sponge, instant crisp.

I keep getting error messages and lost the post.

I also had no luck with T05 and Xiom's carbon sponges, seems like the topsheet would melt before the glue gives way. Let me know if you find a way because the Xiom especially seems like a durable high bounce sponge.

As for me, not enough to be an expert, but so far tried: spinpips red, hexer, AK47, Adidas blaze spin, waran, and most of my Chinese pips. Chinese sponges are easier to peel as they are (except for AK47) non-brittle. The TSP sponge ripped, waran's was very easy to remove.

Regarding your earlier question, I didn't like Hexer pips at all so sacrificed a nearly new sheet just to get the sponge lol. At least the sponge is great!