Coaching & Tips - Alternative way to loop underspin

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Alternative way to loop underspin

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Topic: Alternative way to loop underspin

Posted By: blahness
Subject: Alternative way to loop underspin
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 4:31am

See this position in the pic below.

This is akin to a split squat position which allows one to get really low without having to bend from the waist (squeezing the right love handle). It also avoids knee shear by having the right knee aligned with the centre of gravity when it's taking load. I just tried it and I could use this position to loop very heavy underspin with ease (except for my leg muscles are pretty much destroyed by the training session yesterday).

I think Harimoto has way too much arm backswing in the pic below but the basic idea of the body position is there.

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Back to normal shape bats :(

Replies:

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 4:40am

Added a split squat position

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Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 11:06am

This is the standard professional way to loop underspin (look at Ma Long or Xu Xin if you doubt this). Not sure why you call it an alternative.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 5:50pm

NextLevel wrote:

This is the standard professional way to loop underspin (look at Ma Long or Xu Xin if you doubt this). Not sure why you call it an alternative.

Everyone else has to bend and twist from the waist because the foot is not in line with the torso. This is in fact, the only way where you can go down really low while maintaining a straight torso. The key is the right foot and knee positioning.

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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 6:05pm

blahness wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

This is the standard professional way to loop underspin (look at Ma Long or Xu Xin if you doubt this). Not sure why you call it an alternative.

Okay.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 6:50pm

See Ma Long and Xu Xin looping underspin and how the difference in feet position prevents a deeper squat and forces him to compress his right/left waist to loop the ball.

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 7:29pm

Sure. I have let it go. Hopefully others will agree. No one gets perfect technique on every shot. But if you were to ask Xu Xin or Ma Long what they were trying to do with the help of a professional coach like say LGL, it wouldn't be any different from that Harimoto picture. They are just bigger and stronger and able to do more with less.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 7:53pm

NextLevel wrote:

Sure. I have let it go. Hopefully others will agree. No one gets perfect technique on every shot. But if you were to ask Xu Xin or Ma Long what they were trying to do with the help of a professional coach like say LGL, it wouldn't be any different from that Harimoto picture. They are just bigger and stronger and able to do more with less.

Lol the videos don't lie. Also Ma Long is in a training situation so you cant argue that he is not using perfect technique. And they use pretty much the same mechanism in matches. Ma Long and Xu Xin don't rotate their feet sufficient to get to the split squat position and hence they can't go that low without waist bending. You can see the waist bending really clearly in their matches and practice videos.

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: dchow
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 8:57pm

let the match results dictate which technique is greater.
there are pros and cons to every technique

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 9:06pm

dchow wrote:

let the match results dictate which technique is greater.
there are pros and cons to every technique

Not really talking about match effectiveness (I think both are effective in looping underspin) in this thread, also match results are a test of overall ability not just proficiency at a particular shot...

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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 9:31pm

I think it has always been standard to get low against backspin balls. Most amateur players don't get low enough because it's just too tiring to maintain. It also slows down you're recovery too much if you're not extremely fit. FZD also gets extremely low**.

As for the waist bend, I think different balls call for slightly different situations. To me Xu Xin and Harimoto look like they're doing the same thing. Ma Long looks like he's looping a half long ball. The timing on that picture is different, so maybe if you had Ma Long doing the same stroke but at the end of his backswing instead of during the forward swing, it might look more similar?

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 9:55pm

mickd wrote:

I think it has always been standard to get low against backspin balls. Most amateur players don't get low enough because it's just too tiring to maintain. It also slows down you're recovery too much if you're not extremely fit. FZD also gets extremely long.

It looks similar but the devil is in the details. With both methods you can get to a low position, the question is how you get there. You can see very clearly how Ma Long's right waist is compressed, indicating a significant waist bend. Same with Xu Xin except it is hidden from view.

With Harimoto's method which is akin to a split squat, you can in fact get much lower without any bending in the waist (in this position the left knee can touch the ground easily) because your knees are aligned with your torso in a straight line, ie the feet is rotated 90 deg to the table, same with the knee and the waist. Whereas with Ma Long and Xu Xin, their feet is rotated only about 60 degrees while their torso is rotated 90 degrees, with this difference you can't go so low, and because your centre of gravity is not in line with the knees there will be some degree of knee shear too.

The other part of the equation to achieving this "split squat" position is a small angle difference between the left and right foot (the larger the angle the less low you can go without waist bending).

. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke.

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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 10:10pm

blahness wrote:

. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke.

https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484

Here is Lin Gaoyuan doing the same exact thing Harimoto is doing. So did Lin Gaoyuan invent this technique too? Or is he just good at getting low for maximum twist sometimes when he loops backspin.

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 10:23pm

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke.

https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484

Here is Lin Gaoyuan doing the same exact thing Harimoto is doing. So did Lin Gaoyuan invent this technique too? Or is he just good at getting low for maximum twist sometimes when he loops backspin.

This in fact is a good illustration of my point. LGY rotates his feet more than Ma Long/Xu Xin and therefore can get to a lower position.But still it is incomplete. It is a continuous spectrum...the more you rotate your feet and the lower the angle between your two feet, the lower you can get to the ground without bending waist. Of course ideally everything is in line, then you can loop underspin without the potentially harmful waist bending.

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 10:29pm

blahness wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke.

https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484

Here is Lin Gaoyuan doing the same exact thing Harimoto is doing. So did Lin Gaoyuan invent this technique too? Or is he just good at getting low for maximum twist sometimes when he loops backspin.

Like I have said, this is standard technique and is what players try to achieve, because they don't complete the backswing on every shot does not mean that this is not what they train or intend. As to whether they need to complete it to avoid waist bending, I leave that to experts like you who seem to understand technique better than the people who actually practice it.

Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 10:35pm

Blahness, your very theoretical approach to TT oftentimes doesn't really work, nor is as necessary as you think, outside of highly controlled settings.

For all of the revelations you've shared in the last year or so, do you have measurable improvement in your matchplay by implementing these theories?

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 10:44pm

bard romance wrote:

Blahness, your very theoretical approach to TT oftentimes doesn't really work, nor is as necessary as you think, outside of highly controlled settings.

For all of the revelations you've shared in the last year or so, do you have measurable improvement in your matchplay by implementing these theories?

I am close to university B team level now, year before this I could only get a max of 6 pts average per game against those guys...

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 10:46pm

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke.

https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484

Here is Lin Gaoyuan doing the same exact thing Harimoto is doing. So did Lin Gaoyuan invent this technique too? Or is he just good at getting low for maximum twist sometimes when he loops backspin.

Ok...Mr know it all, you win!

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 10:48pm

blahness wrote:

bard romance wrote:

Blahness, your very theoretical approach to TT oftentimes doesn't really work, nor is as necessary as you think, outside of highly controlled settings.

For all of the revelations you've shared in the last year or so, do you have measurable improvement in your matchplay by implementing these theories?

I am close to university B team level now, year before this I could only get a max of 6 pts average per game against those guys...

What exactly is a university B team level - I legitimately don't have a clue.

Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 10:55pm

NextLevel wrote:

This is the standard professional way to loop underspin (look at Ma Long or Xu Xin if you doubt this). Not sure why you call it an alternative.

A picture of Gatien in the 1980s would look similar.

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 11:04pm

Baal wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

This is the standard professional way to loop underspin (look at Ma Long or Xu Xin if you doubt this). Not sure why you call it an alternative.

A picture of Gatien in the 1980s would look similar.

Watched many Gatien videos before, I think he also favours having his feet about 90 deg apart. He bends from his waist a lot.

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 11:05pm

bard romance wrote:

blahness wrote:

bard romance wrote:

Blahness, your very theoretical approach to TT oftentimes doesn't really work, nor is as necessary as you think, outside of highly controlled settings.

For all of the revelations you've shared in the last year or so, do you have measurable improvement in your matchplay by implementing these theories?

I am close to university B team level now, year before this I could only get a max of 6 pts average per game against those guys...

What exactly is a university B team level - I legitimately don't have a clue.

Neither do I have a clue what does 2000 level in US mean....

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 11:11pm

blahness wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke.

https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484

Here is Lin Gaoyuan doing the same exact thing Harimoto is doing. So did Lin Gaoyuan invent this technique too? Or is he just good at getting low for maximum twist sometimes when he loops backspin.

Ok...Mr know it all, you win!

It is far from a competition , I am pretty transparent about what I ion ion who I work with. It is just pretentious to make mountains out of subtle differences that you lack the empirical experience to make confident judgements about.

Basically when I coach, I try to teach the use of the body with hip rotation and a torso fold. As mickd pointed put, each athlete will implement different degrees of both depending on their needs. If someone has the fitness to it like Lin Gaoyuan, I don't call it a new technique. I might argue he uses his body better. But I don't see it as an alternative.

So it is just interesting to hear you make it sound like the newest thing on the block. You just can't help yourself. Am I a know it all for pointing out your obvious problem with making distinctions that don't have any basis in experience with advanced TT?

Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 11:22pm

blahness wrote:

bard romance wrote:

blahness wrote:

bard romance wrote:

Blahness, your very theoretical approach to TT oftentimes doesn't really work, nor is as necessary as you think, outside of highly controlled settings.

For all of the revelations you've shared in the last year or so, do you have measurable improvement in your matchplay by implementing these theories?

I am close to university B team level now, year before this I could only get a max of 6 pts average per game against those guys...

What exactly is a university B team level - I legitimately don't have a clue.

Neither do I have a clue what does 2000 level in US mean....

There are a multitude of videos online of players with their USATT ratings listed. "University B level" I assume would highly depend on what university we are talking about and its current roster of players.

The reason I ask is because your improvement very well may have been due to just playing the game more, and not any of the revelations that you think caused the improvement.

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/01/2019 at 11:27pm

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke.

https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484

Here is Lin Gaoyuan doing the same exact thing Harimoto is doing. So did Lin Gaoyuan invent this technique too? Or is he just good at getting low for maximum twist sometimes when he loops backspin.

Ok...Mr know it all, you win!

I did not say it was a "new technique" merely an alternative to illustrate how to approach getting low to loop underspin to reduce the amount of waist bending and knee shear.

Seriously, why are you here if there is nothing new under the sun and you have nothing to learn anymore?

I don't think my level is that much lower than yours,despite you loving to lord your 2000 rating and "advanced level" experience over other posters here.

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 12:03am

Just curious how you come to that conclusion when you just said you have no idea what 2000 in US looks like.

Another good test of your theories would be to implement them on people who have stopped improving despite playing a lot, and seeing what happened. I’d be curious to see the results.

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 12:12am

bard romance wrote:

Just curious how you come to that conclusion when you just said you have no idea what 2000 in US looks like.

Another good test of your theories would be to implement them on people who have stopped improving despite playing a lot, and seeing what happened. I’d be curious to see the results.

Well I watched some NextLevel videos and he didn't seem that amazing either compared to some of our players here.

I dont think my "theories" affect much in terms of playing level, but more of injury prevention.

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 2:00am

blahness wrote:

. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke.

Are you referring to having both feet pointing in the same direction (to the side) like the split squat image you linked above?

I think it'll be really hard to transfer your weight forward into your opposite playing foot if you had them both pointing in the same direction like that. If you did manage to do it, your non-playing leg foot will probably have to rotate to be facing forward during the stroke. Harimoto still has his left foot facing diagonally forward. Xu Xin has it (his right) facing a little more forward, and we can't see Ma Long's feet in the third picture.

I think your playing foot should be pointing sideways like the split squat, which Harimoto and Xu Xin both have in the pictures above. But your non-playing foot should be pointed more forward. And you should be folding your body over your leg (like a bow, though I think for injury prevention you're advocating not to lean as well as bow here?) to transfer all your weight to that side.

I could be missing it, though! There are slight differences, but I see the same key ingredients in all their strokes.

Getting low would also be influenced by the height and length of the incoming ball, the timing you're planning to hit it, your current position, and the type of ball you're going to play.

I'm thinking the underlying principle I'm seeing from this thread is to get low. Having a wider stance also makes getting lower easier (which the split squat definitely has). Your success could be attributed to getting lower than you usually do. I used to try and get super low, but I was never able to commit it to muscle memory!

Posted By: Shifu
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 4:10am

I think blahness has a point here. It's not just that he can get really low without having to twist his upper body (which is not healthy), he can also stay pretty parallel to the table, which helps him with his backhand play.

Having your right foot behind hurts your backhand play, this helps him to counter with his BH much faster on the next shot because his right foot is closer to the table.

I hold two coaching licenses and I think I know a bit about table tennis.

Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 6:14am

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

If it all was the same than before, maybe zjk would not have interrupted his career because aggravated (scrotum?) injury. What about Maze? and all those we don't know who broke themselves through injury inducing technique?

About the OP being a repeat: it is not true and it is hypocritical to say. Even if his approach was a repeat, which it is not, that would mean people can't approach a known topic topic with their own twist?

Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Well done blahness! feel complimented. Note that I do not see any wrong in people trying to tone you down, but when you see they don't attack or fight what you say but just the fact that you want to own your own twist, which you do, you can welcome it as pat in the back from your buddies which they are :).

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game. Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

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Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 6:44am

Fabian1890 wrote:

I think blahness has a point here. It's not just that he can get really low without having to twist his upper body (which is not healthy), he can also stay pretty parallel to the table, which helps him with his backhand play.

Having your right foot behind hurts your backhand play, this helps him to counter with his BH much faster on the next shot because his right foot is closer to the table.

I hold two coaching licenses and I think I know a bit about table tennis.

thank you for that.

Injury prevention technique meets strategic necessities, life is beautiful when we know where to go and it's not only possible, it's the route that makes sense and it's all open, no excuse not to go there.

as side note "Injury prevention technique meets strategic necessities" is the general feel of blahness' endeavor in the coaching section, a twist he wants to push, it's where he wants to go. If somebody wants to carry the torch forwards, they should be encouraged. He does so with positive energy and what he does is better than the general nothingness that happens in the coaching section when he does not. Something right is better than nothing not wrong.

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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 6:53am

stiltt wrote:

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game. Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

It does make sense to applaud someone who does mostly what you do as well. Comparing technique is natural, but not grounding someone's technique in their fitness is often a result of not understanding technique.

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 6:56am

Having your right foot behind hurts your backhand play, this helps him to counter with his BH much faster on the next shot because his right foot is closer to the table.

I hold two coaching licenses and I think I know a bit about table tennis.

So when you see Lin Gaoyuan doing the same thing, do you think of it as an alternative way to play or something that takes advantage of a certain level of fitness. Does this just apply to underspin or does Harimoto loop topspin similarly? Is blahness making these posts about Harimoto's loop or just his loop vs backspin?

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 7:01am

blahness wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

blahness wrote:

. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke.

https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wxEgEWNuvZU?t=484

Here is Lin Gaoyuan doing the same exact thing Harimoto is doing. So did Lin Gaoyuan invent this technique too? Or is he just good at getting low for maximum twist sometimes when he loops backspin.

Ok...Mr know it all, you win!

I don't think my level is that much lower than yours,despite you loving to lord your 2000 rating and "advanced level" experience over other posters here.

Harimoto does this on almost every forehand. It is built into his base technique, and for most top players, their loop vs backspin is just an extension of their base forehand technique where they use the body to lower the shoulder and arm and rotate it back and upwards into position. I think it is important to distinguish between the specific capabilities of a player vs considering a stroke technique different or special. But that said maybe you are right. Maybe this special approach for underspin should be taught so that it catches on.

My playing level is not high (I had auto immune arthritis and knee issues even before i started playing 8 yrs ago), but I have discussed these things with coaches and high level players a lot. I do appreciate your taking responsibility for your game, It is something that every adult learner should do. But what should be done more carefully is using the internet to act as if every idea that comes from your head is a fact. You have defended your opinion but I think you are trying to make it sound like Harimoto is doing something other than simply looping underspin using his base forehand. To be fair, you have already tried to make out that Harimoto's base forehand is special, So maybe that should be the topic though I don't get that either.

I personally have this natural aversion to making it sound like people are doing something special without talking about how their technique evolved. I suspect that if Ma Long had a great backhand 7 years ago when he was using his off arm to do funky stuff, people would have made the use of his off arm a "new technique" for the backhand.

Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 7:21am

NextLevel wrote:

stiltt wrote:

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game. Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

touché

, indeed we have common traits.

I understand your point re. fitness. There is that video of zjk-jsh in slo mo where the chinese loops monster chops we amply commented on in the anton chigurh days. Not too hard to find something alike, there is that at 0.25 speed for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdjMpXahc-c&t=37" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdjMpXahc-c&t=37 Big smile

It's hard not to admire that looping style.

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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 7:53am

mickd wrote:

blahness wrote:

. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke.

Are you referring to having both feet pointing in the same direction (to the side) like the split squat image you linked above?

I could be missing it, though! There are slight differences, but I see the same key ingredients in all their strokes.

Getting low would also be influenced by the height and length of the incoming ball, the timing you're planning to hit it, your current position, and the type of ball you're going to play.

No not really but closer in angle rather than say 90 deg (left leg at 12 o'clock and right leg at 3oclock). And yes with this method both feet have to rotate. Right foot goes from roughly 3 o'clock to 1oclock and left foot goes from 2oclock to 12oclock.

The CNT players all have slightly different technique but generally they have their right leg roughly around 2oclock and left leg around 12 oclock, then they compress their right waist to get low.

Although these may be "slight" differences but because of biomechanics it makes a world of difference. Harimoto's method simply allows you to get really low easily without compressing the right waist, which is the key point I am making.

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 8:04am

stiltt wrote:

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game. Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

Thanks fatt for the appreciation. I don't have a problem with the majority of the forum, except for NextLevel. He doesn't post technique threads for sharing himself, but whenever something pops up he's suddenly very motivated to post all kinds of unpleasant and negative posts. Any attempts to debate, becomes a session where he attempts to use his "superior rating","high level TT experience" to try to get other people to shut up. To be honest many banned members behave better than him including berndt_mann who was at least quite humorous. Also it's funny that NextLevel freely admitted that his lower back gets very sore when going low to loop frequently, and still doesn't see the point of this thread....

Edit: Also it's pretty funny when he's saying it's a fitness issue, it's not. A split squat that gets your left knee to the ground is incredibly easy to do compared to the alternative.

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: Shifu
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 8:16am

NextLevel wrote:

Having your right foot behind hurts your backhand play, this helps him to counter with his BH much faster on the next shot because his right foot is closer to the table.

I hold two coaching licenses and I think I know a bit about table tennis.

I don’t think that this technique is super important for looping backspin. The „revolutionary” part is that he can stand pretty parallel and still do a proper weight transfer plus it is less hurtful for the body. It does not make looping under spin easier imho, it just stops you from compressing your spine. Same goes for LGY although it’s less prominent in his stroke. Especially with the plastic balls where it’s more important to stand close to the table, this technique might help you a lot to play quick BH shots.

Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 8:39am

blahness wrote:

stiltt wrote:

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game. Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

Edit: Also it's pretty funny when he's saying it's a fitness issue, it's not. A split squat that gets your left knee to the ground is incredibly easy to do compared to the alternative.

He is far closer to be your friend than the alternative, he even left an opening above ("But that said maybe you are right. Maybe this special approach for underspin should be taught so that it catches on.")

I think he wants above all to keep things within contexts so we do not get carried away and we do not disconnect ourselves from reality, which is a big risk on online forums. On a tt forum the danger is even bigger because there is an ideal technique and there is what the student is capable to do, those 2 can be so far apart sometimes a careful personalized route must be defined. That's NL's his big thing and he is a good guardian of that discipline in posting about technique. I must say his thinking and writing are a joy even if they can bite me sometimes. Doomed with him, doomed without him, yo!!!

Short story short, you 2 are obviously a nice team to keep a whole making sense, with sound boundaries and all factors checked.

stiltt? I should have gone for pissmaker, I mean peacemaker.

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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 9:08am

blahness wrote:

stiltt wrote:

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game. Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

Edit: Also it's pretty funny when he's saying it's a fitness issue, it's not. A split squat that gets your left knee to the ground is incredibly easy to do compared to the alternative.

Hmm interesting statement about my lower back. My lower back is not that much worse than any TT player IMO, rheumatoid arthritis issues aside. Your post is interesting so allow me to reintroduce myself.

Discussing technique and claiming how wonderfully one plays without presenting your own play leads to a distorted view of what playing table tennis is like. I will charitably accept without seeing your play that your playing level is close to mine, more so because mine is not that high. But discussing how to play without talking honestly about your experience gives people a distorted view of TT.

Most of my discussions and analysis of technique are on other forums. I have a whole blog on ooakforum about how my forehand evolved and I could and should post to it again more since I learned to appreciate multiball recently. I also post in discussions on TTEDGE member videos. I post on TTD because over there, people have a community so they are less inclined to talk about how much they know without sharing something about how they know it. Some people do try to do it and my response to them is similar to my response to you. It is easy to talk about table tennis when one doesn't get into the demands technique places on your body. Far more realistic to talk about what people are trying to do and how the body enables them to do it but if you speak with your own video, you can sometimes see where the compromises must be found. There is also a humility that is lacking when talking about fitness which tends to stop when people post their own video.

Here is my video of my trying to take underspin in multiball. As bad as my technique looks with the lower body, it may surprise you that in my head, I am trying to do * exactly* what Harimoto is doing and falling way short because I learned for too long to play with my upper arm and I don't have anything close to the athleticism given arthritic joints all over the body. If I hit one ball the way he does my right knee will just fall apart for a week. The multiball feed isn't great either but that is the limitation of playing in a club where most of us have non standard TT backgrounds. I might also just not be good at TT and that is fair. But my athletic peak in terms of physical health merging with TT was 2014 and I didn't understand technique back then so I threw away quite a few of my best years (my knees were crappy back them too though). Ever since 2017 , it has been mostly down hill but I understand the sport better but since I can't move I can't play my true game.

https://youtu.be/bSK-mjrvfFI?t=120" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/bSK-mjrvfFI?t=120

But if you want to discuss the basics of forehand loop vs underspin, we can talk about it. It is one of my shots relative to my level though my forehand sucks in general general because I lack the mobility to support it.

But I can't look at how Harimoto plays a loop vs underspin and separate it from his looping technique in general. Most of the elements you think are special are largely found in his looping technique as a whole.

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 9:13am

Fabian1890 wrote:

NextLevel wrote:

Having your right foot behind hurts your backhand play, this helps him to counter with his BH much faster on the next shot because his right foot is closer to the table.

I hold two coaching licenses and I think I know a bit about table tennis.

My point is that this is built into Harimoto's and LGY's basic loop form and they are mostly looping the ball like everyone else does. Maybe blahness should post the full video of Harimoto looping so we can see whether he is using his back that much. The other thing to remember is that Harimoto is not yet considered a threat against choppers so what does this really prove? I know it is age and strength related so I am just trying to keep things in perspective. But I suspect that as he gets stronger in his upper body (as all men should with age) he will look more traditional on these strokes but his ability to get low will remain the same.

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 4:44pm

NextLevel sounds like a toxic and bitter guy who just spends all day long trolling in TT forums and has just nothing valuable to add other than continually putting down other people's posts and work.

He doesn't seem to know much about biomechanics but yet feels the need to show his ignorance again and again. He doesn't use the same mechanics as Harimoto does despite his wishful thinking, it's mostly powered by his lower back torquing and bending, maybe because he has even poorer mobility than even mjamja who btw is a much more positive poster. He didnt even understand the difference between lumbar and thoracic rotation which I thought was fairly simple, so of course to him these angle differences in the feet which is even more subtle would have been entirely lost because in his simplistic brain it's just the same ie getting low.

I wish there was a way to block someone else's posts here in this forum. I can stop seeing his toxic posts and he can stop seeing my posts which apparently triggers him because he can't stand someone stealing his spotlight. But it's fine, I will simply no longer respond to any of NextLevels posts anymore from now on. I actually have better things to do in my life.

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 5:01pm

I am glad that you clarified in an earlier post that your musings are intended for a more biomechanically sound or healthier way to play. My impression was that these were ways to improve your game, and I think most readers would have gotten that impression. So perhaps it is a good idea to put that stipulation in your original post, for people's awareness.

I understand you may not like Next's tone. But I think he makes a fair point. I have been fortunate to have exposure to many high level players and coaches and I have never seen any focus so much on specific musculoskeletal nuances as much as you do - so it is not unreasonable for someone to give pause. I'm not sure what your end goal of these series of posts are, but if your goal is to win converts or really show the advantages of these techniques, that is where I think posting video of either you or students would help, rather than trying to glean deep underlying things from screenshots of videos of pros. Not feeling comfortable in sharing video makes sense, but I'd be curious to take a look if you privately messaged it - perhaps there are applications of these techniques happening that I am not imagining.

Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 5:03pm

With the hips completely squared to and back foot pointing to the hitting side in the backswing, it feels unnatural to rotate into the shot without a lot of pivoting on the balls of your feet. And pivot you shall or you're fighting against yourself and hurting your knees. Getting into and out of such an extreme position takes more time.

Posted By: aerial
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 5:06pm

dude, I don't see much toxicity in any of the posts except for the ones that you're trying to call him out on for just bringing his side of the discussion to the forum, which what a forum is meant to be...

that being said, I'm big into lumbar flexion (or avoiding it) due to previous injuries tt related and weight-training related so I always like this topic being discussed on the forum Thumbs Up

I also trained with NL when I visited his home-club like... at this point maybe 3 years ago? my forehand still sucks and I still don't "know" my stroke as NL said lol. real life just gets in the way of pong life...

c'est la vie

Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 5:36pm

For the record, I largely enjoy both NL and Blahness's posts but not all of them. I just skim over the ones I don't. I think I understand the mechanics of how this thread got out of hand - I suspect it is something that was brewing before. Perhaps just ignoring posts from certain member or reply with "ignored" or something similar will be best.

Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 5:39pm

The least I can say is NextLevel's toxicity is the most civilized in the universe style wise; it's also some kind of medication, similar to the seed inside the apricot pit, too much is poison but get a little and it will cure stuff off.

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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 6:04pm

racquetsforsale wrote:

With the hips completely squared to and back foot pointing to the hitting side in the backswing, it feels unnatural to rotate into the shot without a lot of pivoting on the balls of your feet. And pivot you shall or you're fighting against yourself and hurting your knees. Getting into and out of such an extreme position takes more time.

Agreed and it's something to consider and perhaps work on.

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 6:19pm

bard romance wrote:

The coaches are paid or trained to maximize performance and typically do not care about healthy or sustainable technique. They have also been trained in a certain way and typically just coach whatever they've learnt. Unfortunately as a result the majority of TT players get injuries sooner or later, both in the professional world as well as the amateur world. Injuries are a big taboo. No one wants to talk about them, but they do happen frequently, and it's often because of injurious movements repeated over many millions of times. In engineering we call it fatigue failure, and it happens in many materials too.

It is the same in high level piano, many players get injured because it's all about playing faster and louder and no one cares much about how they were playing as long as they get results. Any mention of more sustainable biomechanics gets sneers from players who go "this is how I've played my whole life" or "everyone does the same thing", "nah I'm fine, see?". I have had bad injuries before and I have learnt a lot from them. As amateurs we are not making a living from playing and if playing occurs at a cost to health you have to ask if there's a better way...

I am not trying to win over anyone but simply sharing what I learnt. I don't have students, but rather a few training partners where we improve together. I learnt much from them too. I do not profit whatsoever by any of these postings...I have much better ways of earning money....

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 6:26pm

blahness wrote:

bard romance wrote:

That is good and well, then in that case you should preface your posts with a warning that this is a theory that is intended for the betterment of future health, and may be detrimental to one's table tennis game, and also that you are not a doctor (unless you are).

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 6:29pm

aerial wrote:

dude, I don't see much toxicity in any of the posts except for the ones that you're trying to call him out on for just bringing his side of the discussion to the forum, which what a forum is meant to be...

that being said, I'm big into lumbar flexion (or avoiding it) due to previous injuries tt related and weight-training related so I always like this topic being discussed on the forum Thumbs Up

c'est la vie

I'm fine if he disagrees with me. The problem is that eventually he stops debating and starts ad hominem attacks in a passive aggressive way, which admittedly triggers me, even more so than people who use foul language....

He might be a more pleasant guy in real life but from his postings he's like the funkiller at parties....

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 6:31pm

bard romance wrote:

blahness wrote:

bard romance wrote:

What is this, a law forum where every disclaimer has to be put down? Also I disagree that it's detrimental to table tennis game, because my partner's and myself have improved quite a bit with some of these stuff.

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 7:03pm

blahness wrote:

bard romance wrote:

blahness wrote:

bard romance wrote:

Why so harsh?

In your previous posts addressed to me, you played it off as this being a "healthy, more biomechanically sound" alternative. Now you are implying it is a legitimate coaching strategy. Which one is it? If you are taking this new, highly biomechanical approach to TT that seems largely unheard of amongst advanced coaching and playing circles, it would be nice to be able to attribute more success than "taking a few more points off university B level players" to your new approach. As mentioned above, those improvements you mentioned are likely due to just playing the game more rather than what you think your theories improved. When you have made many comments picking apart the games of the world's best players, concluding this and that, you should expect for people to give you a little push back when they find out you are essentially an intermediate club level player. Rather than calling everyone toxic who pushes back, you could do more to provide some further support to your bold claims. As others have mentioned, that is kind of the point of a forum. Disagreement is not toxicity.

Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 7:15pm

For a little further context of what I'm referring to - for most players, strictly thinking about how to execute a shot or play from a body mechanics/perfect form/technique standpoint, is generally not a recipe for success. There are lots of variations on what constitutes an effective stroke, with a few common themes and key elements. So long as you are checking off those boxes, it would be much better to do what you're doing and work within yourself rather than getting into a frame of mind of "perfect biomechanics" for every shot. Countless times I see players stuck at lower or intermediate levels obsessing over the form of the shot, thinking its why they've always missed. It's not.

It is easy to see how someone reading these posts can go down this rabbit hole. Hence why I've presented an alternate perspective.

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 7:34pm

bard romance wrote:

It is easy to see how someone reading these posts can go down this rabbit hole. Hence why I've presented an alternate perspective.

I have no beef with you whatsoever. I have a problem with NextLevel and his passive aggressive brand of personal attacks. Again, any educated person will judge for himself and herself what is good for their own game. Match performance is a complicated thing and I'm not concentrating on it, but you can't say that it's going to be a negative impact on someone's game without actually putting forward the actual reasons. I understand your reasons to disagree and I will defend your right to disagree. Cheers!

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 7:38pm

blahness wrote:

bard romance wrote:

It is easy to see how someone reading these posts can go down this rabbit hole. Hence why I've presented an alternate perspective.

There are more people than you think that actually cannot judge what is good for their game. And lots of people who think they can that are wrong. That is where I am trying to raise some concerns. That said, what good does this really do if you aren't concentrating on match performance? Shall people only train this way going forward? Or train one way, and play matches another? I appreciate you understanding my disagreement, but would prefer that we can continue the dialogue and get to the core of how all this information you present could be applied effectively for players.

The reason is that small tweaks to mechanics and technique, that aren't changing anything amiss with the core fundamentals of a stroke, do not typically make people better players.

Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 8:04pm

"NextLevel sounds like a toxic and bitter guy who just spends all day long trolling in TT forums and has just nothing valuable to add other than continually putting down other people's posts and work."

Exactly the impression I get.

FdT

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 8:04pm

blahness wrote:

NextLevel sounds like a toxic and bitter guy who just spends all day long trolling in TT forums and has just nothing valuable to add other than continually putting down other people's posts and work.

I do sound toxic and bitter to people I criticize. The same way you sound toxic and bitter to me. But I forget sometimes that you are likely much younger and lack some of the perspective to take some of the discussion in the proper spirit.

I won't debate your expertise or your assessment of mine - it gets circular really fast trying to explain to someone who hasn't even shown you he can do a stroke the way he claims it can be done that it doesn't work the way he claims it does. I admire your desire to understand technique and biomechanical understanding of some technique is helpful when coaching. In fact, good coaches often disagree on technique when it gets advanced. I remember disagreeing with Brett Clarke of TTEDGE about a stroke and he couldn't correct my understanding of it until we met in person.

I am just trying to temper your enthusiasm with some realism. One can get a very fake impression of how pros develop technique from threads like this.

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 8:05pm

Fulanodetal wrote:

"NextLevel sounds like a toxic and bitter guy who just spends all day long trolling in TT forums and has just nothing valuable to add other than continually putting down other people's posts and work."

Exactly the impression I get.

FdT

Cool your tits man or I will sue you!

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/02/2019 at 8:12pm

bard romance wrote:

blahness wrote:

bard romance wrote:

It is easy to see how someone reading these posts can go down this rabbit hole. Hence why I've presented an alternate perspective.

The reason is that small tweaks to mechanics and technique, that aren't changing anything amiss with the core fundamentals of a stroke, do not typically make people better players.

So taking this as an example, I think you can achieve a high level looping underspin with either waist bending and slight knee bend, or no waist bending and more complete knee bend. So in terms of match performance it probably doesn't matter as long as it's consistent and you're getting low for the shot. But it might matter for your long term lower back health. I'm not saying that it is better but merely it's not worse as an alternative.

I would counter your statement that "if it doesn't affect match performance what good does this really do" by "if I'm an amateur and not making money from the sport and my current technique might be injurious in the long term, I might want to consider tweaking my stroke to a healthier alternative to avoid injuries even if it causes a short term level drop". Also I think you should generally use the same strokes in both training and matches (even if it doesn't look the same the core principles should be intact)

My own improvements come from many different sources. I have a much better BH push now and also BH loop/counter (after implementing a right leg based push off for the BH rather than my old waist rotation BH). I also have much spinnier serves which helped heaps. My FH is kinda messy now due to the amount of changes, but I think I'll get there soon.

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 7:45am

Been reading this just now and it's become a strange old thread to be honest. So I thought I would pop my 5 bob in the hat as well.

I'm not here to become "toxic" and not to offend either btw.

The first page pictures show a pretty standard loop against a chopped ball. There's a lot of good explanation of this which is actually really pretty cool. Blahness really gets down the micro ideas of the shot which is nice to see. Please don't stop mate you have some cracking nice ideas.

Here's where it goes a bit wrong for me..

It's nothing new, it's a pretty standard stroke.... sorry I tend to call a brick a brick as everyone knows hopefully btw by now. I do not mean to offend.

I get that it's good to try and have different views on things 100%. Cracking breakdown of ideas and backed up by some good photos as always and the way you break down the micro aspects of the technique are cracking but... sorry for this again.

It's still a pretty basic loop against chop by a pro player...

I think NL and a few others may be thinking the same... I've never met the guy or others btw so no bias.

If you are getting benefit great I totally agree to share your ideas and other detailed ways of thinking about shots and production of shots. But why the attacks by everyone because some people query things?.

You can supply a millions stills of players in great positions in training or matches and then them slightly out of positon where they have to play a bit of the fly and adjust to make the stroke work in the real world. All the players are all trying to make the technique you are advising which is the standard coached stroke not just at pro level but lower down as well.

Cheers GZ

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:07am

ghostzen wrote:

Been reading this just now and it's become a strange old thread to be honest. So I thought I would pop my 5 bob in the hat as well.

I'm not here to become "toxic" and not to offend either btw.

Here's where it goes a bit wrong for me..

It's nothing new, it's a pretty standard stroke.... sorry I tend to call a brick a brick as everyone knows hopefully btw by now. I do not mean to offend.

It's still a pretty basic loop against chop by a pro player...

I think NL and a few others may be thinking the same... I've never met the guy or others btw so no bias.

Cheers GZ

Try going into a split squat position with the front foot pointing forward. I believe anyone can go down till their rear knee touches the ground. Now turn your front foot slightly say 15 deg to the left or right. Can you still go down so low?

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:23am

but again this is a standard stroke. Can we at least agree that this is a standard stroke?

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:28am

ghostzen wrote:

but again this is a standard stroke. Can we at least agree that this is a standard stroke?

Suggest you try the simple exercise above first. .

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:34am

So it is or is not a standard stroke?.

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:44am

ghostzen wrote:

So it is or is not a standard stroke?.

If you don't do the exercise you won't see the point and therefore won't even understand how the angle of the feet makes a huge difference in how low you can get while maintaining a straight torso.

I couldn't care less if it was standard or nonstandard....

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:55am

but the topic is called... "Alternative way to loop underspin" if you see where I am coming from?

And I'm not trying to be difficult in any way honestly. thats not my way.

I'm saying normal stroke. You are saying?

Normal or alternative as in different stroke?

Then we can talk about why I think it is normal and then agree or discuss the differences if you say it isn't normal or like the topic suggests alternative.

It's just a yes or no. once thats worked out then we can really get down to the stuff that you are wicked at explaining and everyone will hopefully get a great topic which everyone can learn from. Your attention to detail is cracking.

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:59am

ghostzen wrote:

but the topic is called... "Alternative way to loop underspin" if you see where I am coming from?

And I'm not trying to be difficult in any way honestly. thats not my way.

I'm saying normal stroke. You are saying?

Normal or alternative as in different stroke?

Then we can talk about why I think it is normal and then agree or discuss the differences if you say it isn't normal or like the topic suggests alternative.

Ok if you haven't done the exercise, I have nothing further to discuss. Have a good day!

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 9:08am

No problem. With all the amazingly detailed and good writing you can't answer that Question?? Yes or no??

Totally understand your postion. shame as we could have had a cracking discussion on things.

Posted By: shaks
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 9:28am

Since now you are mostly focusing on the position of the feet. Just adding my 2 cents - The feet position is basically for aiming the shots. So, the open feet position of harimoto is typically to hit shots aimed at the opponents belly or down the line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

Watch Ma long's feet position when he hist from the backhand corner.

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~shaks
Usatt 2150

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 9:42am

shaks wrote:

Since now you are mostly focusing on the position of the feet. Just adding my 2 cents - The feet position is basically for aiming the shots. So, the open feet position of harimoto is typically to hit shots aimed at the opponents belly or down the line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

Watch Ma long's feet position when he hist from the backhand corner.

Hi shaks, actually that is a really good video. You can see quite clearly that in this position Ma Long can't really go any much lower due to the feet position and angle. He drops his right shoulder and squeeze his right waist to be able to get low enough to loop the backspin feed.

In Harimoto's version, the feet are aligned in a way that allows much lower body positions to be achieved. It is similar to a split squat position where the playing foot is perpendicular to the hitting direction. The nonplaying foot also rotates during the backswing to allow this.

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: Bran
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 10:35am

Looping backspin isn't only about getting low, you still need to hit the ball forward, i.e. rotating your arm and body into the ball. By having your feet perpendicular to the ball trajectory, as you describe, you're having to make an extra effort for this rotation, hence why Harimoto is having to cock his arm back this much. Moreover, it's possible when you have all the time you want, but the effort involved means it's a large swing that requires preparation. A perpendicular squat is useful to get low, but it's detrimental to the rest of the movement involved in looping the ball, which consists in hitting into the ball towards the table.

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 10:58am

Letting it go. Thankfully, good and experienced players have posted here with their own wisdom.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 4:24pm

Bran wrote:

Looping backspin isn't only about getting low, you still need to hit the ball forward, i.e. rotating your arm and body into the ball. By having your feet perpendicular to the ball trajectory, as you describe, you're having to make an extra effort for this rotation, hence why Harimoto is having to cock his arm back this much. Moreover, it's possible when you have all the time you want, but the effort involved means it's a large swing that requires preparation. A perpendicular squat is useful to get low, but it's detrimental to the rest of the movement involved in looping the ball, which consists in hitting into the ball towards the table.

As I said it is an alternative to avoid waist bending. Against backspin if you use your body to do the backswing it can still be very fast. The key to a fast stroke is no arm backswing. Harimoto cocking back his arm so much is unnecessary, I found that actually to be detrimental.

The body rotation similarly comes from the thoracic rotation and hip rotation. As you're turning more you actually get a more complete rotation and I suspect more power.

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 4:34pm

ghostzen wrote:

No problem. With all the amazingly detailed and good writing you can't answer that Question?? Yes or no??

Totally understand your postion. shame as we could have had a cracking discussion on things.

You refused to do the simple exercise, meaning your mind is already closed. Therefore there is no point discussing any further.

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 4:49pm

Don't even answer, they just can't stand when somebody wants to stand out, they won't spend energy to do anything alike but they will put all their forces to prevent another person to do it.

They are just like a family member who does not want to spend their money in our business but find no problem and even prefer sponsoring a total stranger's by buying from them instead.

It's very close to jealousy in fact, you say fresh things under a new angle, "lower back protection and injury free style of play" while they pretend it's "standard"; your approach is not standard, it's a new way to apprehend the constraints of the game while keeping strategic goals fully supported; they take insult not having thought about it themselves or, better, they go "DO YOU THINK WE COULD NOT HAVE FIGURED THAT OUT BY OURSELVES???"; that's between disgusting and silly IMHO, negative for sure.

Keep up with the good work! you interest one person at least (many more, believe me).

BTW, the 3 axises (shoulder, waist, hips) was GOLD to me in that http://mytabletennis.net/forum/dangers-of-waist-rotation_topic85492_page1.html" rel="nofollow - thread a while back (I owe you for that energy you spent there). In this thread, what I am taking home is what Fabian1890 wrote in his 1st post in page 1: that it supports his bh play better while not threatening his fh, all that protecting the lower back. You 2 are the kings in today's thread. Thanks to both of you.

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Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 5:19pm

Glad you have now confirmed that it is an alternative stroke and not the normal stroke against a chopped ball.

That's all I asked and you didn't seem keen to want to give a reply either way which confused me why to be honest. It seemed a yes or no answer. But it's cleared up now so all good. Thumbs Up

As for refusing ...nope ...I wouldn't follow blindly being told without asking as I haven't my whole time playing over a fair few years. I in no way mean that to sound I know more or less than anyone here. I've played a fair bit all over the place is all i'm saying.

I asked a question to clarify which you wouldn't answer ...no biggie. All answered and clear now.

I don't really agree from my experince and my time playing but thats ok. That's what the forum is for.

I think you would need time to set and swing with preperation and recover which could be very tricky in a varied and fluid match.

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 6:36pm

You can see in this video that Harimoto squats to a similar degree when looping topspin. So is this an alternative way to loop topspin as well?

https://youtu.be/PQlG2qPbhj8" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/PQlG2qPbhj8

In any case, people can make up their own minds. Toxicology is serious stuff.

Posted By: shaks
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 6:53pm

blahness wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

Watch Ma long's feet position when he hist from the backhand corner.

The lower squat while looping is for a slow spinny loop like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpXuiYap94" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpXuiYap94

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~shaks
Usatt 2150

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 7:25pm

shaks wrote:

blahness wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

Watch Ma long's feet position when he hist from the backhand corner.

The lower squat while looping is for a slow spinny loop like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpXuiYap94" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpXuiYap94

If you notice ZJKs feet position, it is also not perpendicular but rather at a slight angle (around 20-30 deg). He like Ma Long too drops his right shoulder and bends sideways at the waist to achieve the low position. Unlike Ma Long he also does this against topspin, which may have caused some of his serious lower back injuries.

ZJK does have some amazing hip flexibility though being able to bend the knee so much while the right foot is at an angle.

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:00pm

stiltt wrote:

Don't even answer, they just can't stand when somebody wants to stand out, they won't spend energy to do anything alike but they will put all their forces to prevent another person to do it.

They are just like a family member who does not want to spend their money in our business but find no problem and even prefer sponsoring a total stranger's by buying from them instead.

Keep up with the good work! you interest one person at least (many more, believe me).

Thank you again for the support. I guess its a forum, some will disagree and some will agree, the important part is the sharing of ideas and information! The only problem comes when people resort to snarky attacks and bad faith discussions. Like what you suggested I will simply not respond to any of these baits anymore... It's much better to live and let live :)

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 9:04pm

blahness wrote:

I think Harimoto has way too much arm backswing in the pic below but the basic idea of the body position is there.

You wrote that "Harimoto has way too much arm backswing..." However when I watch video of Ma Long against underspin, I see just as long a backswing. Are you suggesting both their swings are "way too much?"

Also you wrote the right knee is aligned with the center of gravity. What does that mean? Are you trying to say the center of gravity is at knee level and the knee-thigh is perpendicular to the center of gravity?

Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 9:35pm

Ieyasu wrote:

blahness wrote:

I think Harimoto has way too much arm backswing in the pic below but the basic idea of the body position is there.

I guess if it wasn't you would fall over sideways?

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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/03/2019 at 10:34pm

Ieyasu wrote:

blahness wrote:

I think Harimoto has way too much arm backswing in the pic below but the basic idea of the body position is there.

Harimoto's elbow is very far from his body during the backswing indicating a lot of arm backswing. Ma Long has his elbow close to the body.

Typically with the existing "standard" technique, the centre of gravity of the upper body is not aligned with the knee due to the feet not being fully perpendicular. It is offset some distance away. In structural engineering this would be called eccentric loading. It's like having ground floor columns and first floor columns some small distance away, continuing with the building analogy.

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/04/2019 at 12:03am

Does anyone have the video of the shot in the OP? Discussing a picture without looking at the whole stroke gives an incomplete view of table tennis technique.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...

Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 07/04/2019 at 1:10am

blahness wrote:

mickd wrote:

Are you referring to having both feet pointing in the same direction (to the side) like the split squat image you linked above?

I could be missing it, though! There are slight differences, but I see the same key ingredients in all their strokes.

Getting low would also be influenced by the height and length of the incoming ball, the timing you're planning to hit it, your current position, and the type of ball you're going to play.

The CNT players all have slightly different technique but generally they have their right leg roughly around 2oclock and left leg around 12 oclock, then they compress their right waist to get low.

Oh, so just having that one foot parallel to the table. I had a hard time picturing it because the split squat picture has both feet parallel, and that would make it a disaster to try and rotate forward into the ball.

I think I see what you're saying now. I'm just not sure if this is something the Chinese don't do. Even that ZJK video above with him looping against a chopper, I see his right leg completely parallel to the table on at least one of the shots. There are also shots where he has his right leg facing slightly forward like you've mentioned, though.

Does Harimoto always have his foot parallel? I would think he would have them parallel sometimes and facing forward slightly sometimes, too.

As for injury prevention, this might be something to take into consideration. For people who have a bad back, but good knees/legs, they could definitely get lower by adjusting their feet angle and stance (I think having a wider stance would help with this too maybe?)

Pros often maximize power at the cost of their bodies. So even if they could save their backs by not leaning their waist to the side, they probably would because it's another source of power.

(P.S. Personally I often have my foot parallel to the table against top and under spin. I added a picture below from a recent match I had. Though this was against top spin).

EDIT: Oh, and I should probably add that I like having these kinds of discussions. As an adult learner, I like thinking about these things. I'm also at a point where I can usually decide for myself whether something will work well for me or not, but I do also understand the other side of the argument because a few years ago I couldn't, and I tried a lot of incorrect things I thought were correct. I also prefer a lively forum with lots of discussions, controversial or not, than a dead one!! Let's keep it civil Smile

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/04/2019 at 1:26am

mickd wrote:

blahness wrote:

mickd wrote:

Are you referring to having both feet pointing in the same direction (to the side) like the split squat image you linked above?

I could be missing it, though! There are slight differences, but I see the same key ingredients in all their strokes.

Getting low would also be influenced by the height and length of the incoming ball, the timing you're planning to hit it, your current position, and the type of ball you're going to play.

The CNT players all have slightly different technique but generally they have their right leg roughly around 2oclock and left leg around 12 oclock, then they compress their right waist to get low.

Does Harimoto always have his foot parallel? I would think he would have them parallel sometimes and facing forward slightly sometimes, too.

Pros often maximize power at the cost of their bodies. So even if they could save their backs by not leaning their waist to the side, they probably would because it's another source of power.

(P.S. Personally I often have my foot parallel to the table against top and under spin. I added a picture below from a recent match I had. Though this was against top spin).

Actually to clarify when I was talking about the direction of the feet, it was relative to the hitting direction rather than the table. Relative to table is hard to say because there's many possibilities. But feet position relative to the hitting direction is usually quite consistent for any player.

Yours looks pretty similar to Harimoto's position except for the extra thoracic rotation that he has and he rotates a bit more on the nonplaying foot.

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 07/04/2019 at 2:32am

Ah, then I'll need some time to rethink the positioning you're talking about. Do you mean hitting direction as in if they're hitting it down the line or cross court? So your 12 o'clock would be the trajectory of the ball they intend to hit?

I'll probably let others continue the discussion while I think about it more ha.

This is a little off topic, but on 2 occasions I tried to add thoracic rotation, and it really hurt. There was this sharp pain at my upper spine area where I guess I was trying to twist to add rotation. It felt like I was pulling a muscle, but the pain was sharp. Did you ever get anything like that? I might have some weak muscles in that area since I never use them.

Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 07/04/2019 at 2:44am

mickd wrote:

Ah, then I'll need some time to rethink the positioning you're talking about. Do you mean hitting direction as in if they're hitting it down the line or cross court? So your 12 o'clock would be the trajectory of the ball they intend to hit?

I'll probably let others continue the discussion while I think about it more ha.

Yes relative to the direction in they're about to hit the ball.

I think thoracic rotation is kinda optional, you can get to a very high level with pure hip rotation (I believe you, and Tt Gold are in this department).

For me it's easier to replace waist with thoracic, because waist rotation was like a drug, you can't get rid of it easily without replacing it with something similar LOL

For me, I didn't do it on the table immediately, there was a few weeks where I focused mainly on bracing the lumbar area and rotating my shoulders while lumbar stayed fixed. I did have some upper back soreness in the beginning but nothing really bad. It probably helped that I had some strength training background so my core and back muscles are quite strong.

If it's painful definitely don't push it, you gotta listen to your body.

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(

Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 07/04/2019 at 3:01am

I have to correct this because I don't want any misunderstandings, but I'm like 5 levels below Tt Gold ha. But thanks!

And cool. I'll think more about it during the weekend.

I also definitely DIDN'T take it slow, brace my lumbar, or ever do strength training, so that definitely wouldn't have helped. I just jumped straight into trying to hit the same power I usually have but with thoracic rotation. That was probably my mistake.

Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 07/04/2019 at 5:25am

blahness wrote:

They are just like a family member who does not want to spend their money in our business but find no problem and even prefer sponsoring a total stranger's by buying from them instead.

Keep up with the good work! you interest one person at least (many more, believe me).

This is one thing we can agree on 100% ....some others we may not Wink

but thats the idea isnt it?. No harm ment btw

Totally new ideas, different ways of thinking are good and backed by experience and technical facts are cracking and also a playing level to back them up helps.

If Gatein was doing this in the 80's and Ma Long and TH are doing it today and they are Pro's. It was the way I was taught and alot of players of my time and going forward and other forumers NL and MickD.

Then this is not something new or a totally unheard of way... It's a standard way of thinking honestly but I think if you take it down to a finite and very small concept in a tiny area you can jusitfy it in some way but that's where you and I differ.

With your very theoretical and highly controlled need to justify micro changes in say a few degrees of a foot and mine to have a practical working match sharp tool to play on the table....but

That's what makes a forum after all. Asking questions and finding answers is how everyone learns. Then decide which works for you and what doesn't and what works for the level of the game. The great thing about this game is adapt, adapt and adapt.

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/04/2019 at 8:53am

mickd wrote:

blahness wrote:

mickd wrote:

Are you referring to having both feet pointing in the same direction (to the side) like the split squat image you linked above?

I could be missing it, though! There are slight differences, but I see the same key ingredients in all their strokes.

Getting low would also be influenced by the height and length of the incoming ball, the timing you're planning to hit it, your current position, and the type of ball you're going to play.

The CNT players all have slightly different technique but generally they have their right leg roughly around 2oclock and left leg around 12 oclock, then they compress their right waist to get low.

Does Harimoto always have his foot parallel? I would think he would have them parallel sometimes and facing forward slightly sometimes, too.

Pros often maximize power at the cost of their bodies. So even if they could save their backs by not leaning their waist to the side, they probably would because it's another source of power.

(P.S. Personally I often have my foot parallel to the table against top and under spin. I added a picture below from a recent match I had. Though this was against top spin).

Hmmm... doing this against topspin just like Harimoto does. I think we should make distinctions between what people do because they are athletes and what people do because they are part of proper technique. I am not even sure whether Harimoto is just an exceptionally limber individual or whether he is inventing new technique. The idea is intriguing.

If you lift a heavy object, you don't want to overuse your back muscles but you are going to use your back muscles. What you don't want is to stress your back muscles by using them in a way that it affects your spine. Hip rotation solves most of the problem as well as playing mostly within the power level generater by your hip rotation, but I think if someone believes that back muscles have no place in safe TT, it is something one can say but which one will have a tough time defending. Proper throwing technique uses the back muscles.

My real "secret" is having very long arms. But to maintain standard looping form, I loop more upwards than someone with your ability to get low might. The principles of what we do aren't that different.

Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 07/05/2019 at 6:38am

standard looping form is a good way to explain it NL. It's something that most players do or try to do.

Having played and trained with a fair few really decent choppers in my time I have always tried to hold a working form.

One of the coaches i trained with drummed it into me to KISS (KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID) if I was over thinking things in a match.

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/05/2019 at 10:02am

that being said, I'm big into lumbar flexion (or avoiding it) due to previous injuries tt related and weight-training related so I always like this topic being discussed on the forum Thumbs Up

c'est la vie

Thanks, and to be clear, I have nothing against talking about lumbar flexion. Back injuries are common in all sports and injury prevention is important. In fact, my arthritis gave me injuries all by itself. TT was just the icing on the cake.

But that said, talking to high level coaches, especially those who played at a decent level, gives you a different insight into technique and injury. High level coaches try to stop motions that cause injuries. The biggest source of injuries is trying to get power from motions that cannot handle the stress. It requires you to to learn how to use your body properly. That said, a lot of injury prevention also comes from self care because the human body can only handle so much physical activity without rest and restoration. If anyone playing table tennis isn't getting massages or using a roller or something to take care of the tightness that builds up in the muscles, you are due for something at some point as tight muscles pull on tendons and need to relax to free them up.

The thing I tell people is that you need to hit the ball essentially the same way every single time, and then learn how to adjust to spin with practice. Top players are mostly doing one stroke which they have adapted to the ball with practice and learning to adjust their body to create different stroke trajectories and to adapt to different incoming spins and placements.

I have learned a lot more about technique since the time I spoke to you and I have better ways of teaching how to hit a TT ball. I don't even practice what I preach well enough but I know the limitations of reality like gravity.

Harimoto does just about everything blahness wrote about on his standard forehand loop (vs block). So why is this an alternative way to loop underspin? All Harimoto is doing (for anyone who understands standard technique) is getting a deeper knee bend on his left knee as part of his hip rotation on the backswing. He is not folding his torso as much as some might but it goes back to the question of where is the video of what he was looping so we can even confirm the ball was heavy underspin. Adjusting to the ball leads to all kinds of things that may or may not be part of a base technique. The main benefit of getting lower is that it helps you keep the ball lower and play lower balls.

Here is a video that goes into detail on how to loop underspin. Here, the lowering of the body with the hip rotation on the backswing is not as low as Harimoto. But conceptually, it is the same stroke. No, not an alternative. Standard forehand technique is standard forehand technique, even if some do it better than others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_f9nhtKtBQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_f9nhtKtBQ

Something the video doesn't mention which I like to emphasize to students is that when you are looping underspin, there is a strong emphasis on spinning the ball because underspin wants to go into the table/net so you need to have a very spin focused stroke. If you want to drive the ball faster, spin the ball more with more power, don't try to hit it harder.

Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 07/05/2019 at 12:02pm

Hadn't seen that video before. Thanks for posting NL.

While watching it I kept thinking a video I had seen of Ma Long hitting underspin was an excellent demo. But right at the end, Brett refers to that very same video. The two videos compliment each other very well.

(The difference in elbow distance from the body between the two is also interesting.)

Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/05/2019 at 12:22pm

Ieyasu wrote:

Hadn't seen that video before. Thanks for posting NL.

(The difference in elbow distance from the body between the two is also interesting.)

Thanks. IMO, the elbow distance is one of those nuances that is related to your technique and not part of looping backspin as long as you don't engage the upper arm too much - it does make controlling the backswing easier IMO but some people prefer direct backswings. If I was coaching, I would tell you to keep the elbow close and to limit upper arm usage as much as possible, but if you found me a video of Kreanga or Boll doing it a bit differently, I would just tell you okay. But if you felt that you wanted to just drop your arm and that it was optional getting the shoulder lower with some combination of folding the torso and rotating the hip to lower the racket, I would just say that is clearly inferior technique.

Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 07/05/2019 at 4:36pm

Great link NL much appreciated 👍

Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 07/05/2019 at 5:33pm

NL wrote:

"IMO, the elbow distance is one of those nuances that is related to your technique and not part of looping backspin as long as you don't engage the upper arm too much - it does make controlling the backswing easier IMO but some people prefer direct backswings."

Thanks. I was curious whether you thought the difference was significant.

Five years ago on this forum there was a bit of discussion regarding arm extension in the backswing here: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/angular-momentum-info-from-larry-hodges_topic64840.html" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/angular-momentum-info-from-larry-hodges_topic64840.html sparked by some brief comments by Larry Hodges on his blog: http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1720" rel="nofollow - http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1720

As an aside, that is why I disagree with Blahness's claim that Harimoto's backswing is "way too much arm backswing." At best it's ambiguous or misleading because the ML video clearly shows ML taking a very long arm swing-path against backspin. Harimoto's swing-path is just as long except the arm is a tad further from his body.

Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 07/05/2019 at 5:34pm

OMG - I saw a partial clip of that video and patterned my entire backspin looping technique on the "how not to" section not knowing there was a "how to" section that came later.

Ok, I never really saw the video. But it is remarkable how much my loop against underspin looks just like what he first showed. Been working 2+ yrs to get it to look more normall without much luck.

Mark

Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 07/05/2019 at 6:31pm

Ieyasu wrote:

...

If we agree that in theory, we choose the most efficient way, then more backswing than necessary means waste. So the question should be instead: "can TH fh loop with less backswing to save time and energy?" if yes, then blahness is right; but we could go the other way saying that at that age, there is plenty of energy and speed available and not in use so that waste is not the priority in things to fix if there are any.

I would tend to go as efficient as possible, gaining little things here and there is what pays off overtime. Think of cyclists selling their mom to shave 20 grams off their bike. I bet those guys at the top of TT are the same, if they can get an edge, they'll work for it. The only thing that strikes me is the brutality of his fh, the legs work in the backswing and the swing is so strong, stronger than needed, the same racket speed at contact can be reached spending way less energy. Compare throwing a disc and a sledgehammer, it seems he throws the latter. But there is maybe a reason for that, if fluidity builds up on top of that as he peaks a couple years down the road, it could be scary for example.

The evolution of TH's fh is so interesting, as his body evolves into his adult age and training shapes his fh in a controlled environment with the best coaches, we could end up with something radically new and ridiculously efficient in terms of connection with the bh. The next 2 years are going to be determinant, I hope whatever route he chooses doesn't mute his bh in a tt mystery hard to anticipate.

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