Standard, popular gear . . . nothing boutique, odd, etc.

Thanks!!!

I would say Donic Persson Powerallround or Stiga Allround Evolution with both sides either Vega Intro or Gewo Neoflexx 48 if available.

I would even say Mark V on both sides might be enough.

I'd highly recommend the following : 

More than 100 but last blade he will ever need

The Tibhar Drinkhall Power Spin Carbon is somewhat on the same lines as the Viscaria and TBALC... 

Another noteworthy blade (I could not remember the name, in my earlier post) is the Donic Ovtcharov True Carbon .. It is, however, a tad faster, and even stiffer than the rest ..

Then use Fastarc C1 for forehand and backhand (buy from T11 and use 4 for price of 3 for best deal) or C1 on backhand and anything on forehand.  A bit heavy but it will allow you to hit powerful shots and blocks from anywhere in the court while giving you more feedback than the ALC blades.  With the new plastic ball, this blade isn't that much faster than a Viscaria, just more head heavy.

Blade: Yinhe t11s (19-21$) - with FH/BH: palio CJ 8000 2 side loop biotech 42-44 deg (7-8$) (Overall 33-37$), really fast but consistent blade (I train with that myself)

Not crazy at all. I've trained and competed a lot in my life. I've noticed that most of us play a more careful, conservative, controlled game during matches. For example, when training, I rarely engage in pushing wars. Matches become more surgical IMO . . . or at least in my case.

Joola Viking (P700 clone still avaliable at JOOLA USA) with Maxxx 450 both sides

Xiom Zeta Offensive with Vega Vapan both sides.

well, almost every major brand have an affordable thin 7 ply wood with medium hardness tensor.

Avalox P700? If so, that might work better for me than him . . . stiff and good for pure hitting.

Tried to use it couple years ago and, for me (rosewood user) is too soft and quite flexy for a 7 ply nowdays.

Back in 00' or 90'.. it was "stiff and hard" because lots of allwood blades were thin, soft an flexy.. 

So e.g. Yinhe Pro 5W, Sun + Moon, < $50 at princett.com. Invest the difference in tech stocks, then you can upgrade to Tenergy or Dignics in a couple of years.

See the reviews.

What happened here?!?! When I was younger, player within this skill range played with All+ blades and Sriver FX, Coppa or Vario Soft.

Dude, that is you... but do not take much ofense, it also describes me.

I have never supported pundits saying equipment for a TTR 1300 player MUST be such and such All+ blade and medium control oriented rubbers... however, with time, I can see how correct a pundit is when pundit says this setup will better contribute to a newer player's growth.

So I would say Ingo's recommendation of a medium speed blade and control oriented modern rubers is a good recommendation... and that his dislike of faster equipment that has been recommended is very justified. It just isn't the only way.

Sure, a dude can lern with a rocket setup and some rocket setups make doing certain things easier, hence more controlable, but Ingo's recommendation of center everything is good that is will proide the player with feedback when a ball is not well struck and edge the player into constructing points instead of going apeshyt right away.

That recommendation has a lot more power behind it than many realize.

I mean, you don't put a 6-year old directly into a Formula 1 race car and say to him: Best you learn directly with the real stuff and it will be much easier to get a fast lap with this in comparison to something smaller and slower".

And just something to think about: I know a lot of those with too fast equipment. Just forget to play some drills with them. Either they will just hit 3 to 4 strokes in a row and then make a mistake because they have no controll over their setup or often those are the type who just want to "finish" the drill with a flashy "big point my material is so cool and fast bling bling" shot which they fail 50% of the time.

And this "faster material is more controllable "bullshit": Does any of you really believe this? C'mon....

 However, if the kid doesn't have his fundamentals down yet, and has no scope of receiving some regular coaching, then yeah, a good controlled all-round ply like an all round evolution or a Sweden classic paired with some easy to use med-hard rubbers like vega pro/aurus  or slightly softer like fastarc c1 or vega euro should work well too. 

The 8/9 yr old 1600 player in my club uses a Viscaria and did so when he was 1100.  Hope that helps.  The new ABS ball has made everything slower.  It is one thing to speak from theory but I work with players.  I used to play with OFF- blades all the time and tried it after the ABS ball change, with the result that I started putting too much effort for too little reward.  IMO, if you want to make someone use a beginner set up with proper strokes, put on some hybrid or Chinese rubber with tack.   But a Viscaria is roughly the slowest blade that one should use.  I am allergic to ALC blades so I use all wood, but I wouldn't hesitate to put the right kind of player on a Mazunov these days even as a beginner.   I would just put on slower rubber.   But at 1600 with good coaching, a Mazunov is fine.

Slower blades to me are more about short game feel. But Chinese or slower rubber is better for that.

the race car would still drive fine at controllable and reasonable speeds, you just don't put the 6 year old on a race track and tell them to go 200 mph. so the proper analogy you'd be looking for is that don't put the 6 year up against a 2700 player and ask them to counter loop. and the viscaria is not a formula 1 car, it is really not that hard to control of a blade. i have seen many players go from beginner to advanced level using carbon blades, i am not sure why the common thought on forums is that using a carbon blade as a beginner is cardinal sin

I believe there was some thinking that touch was learned more quickly with wood for the same reason.  The touch learned on the wood supposedly carried over even after switching to carbon.

Have no knowledge to form opinion on either of above.  Just writing some of reasons I remember reading.

Mark 

Was total newbie.

In 2 months read articles and saw really experienced guy with TB Alc and t05 and t64.

Wanted such a setup really much and it lasted for 3 more months during which I tried to find according to forums advices something slower, but didn't like it cause thought it was a matter of equipment that my topspin was not powerful enough.

Looking at my hesitation, my coach told me to take that TB Alc and let's start trainings.

I took)))

In 2 years my level grown to something like 2200 in US.

Btw I changed 1 tb Alc to 2 one because broke first))

After that viscaria light and after that trapped to ifl Alc and xiom feel zx1.

So current situation is that I need slower setup just because I can use it in my play style better, not because I had to start with it.

Have you tried Mark V with the ABS balls?

It simply does not bite the ball the way that it would grab celluloid.

What frequently happens is that you get a lot of medium speed balls that go long because they lack topspin.

I suppose that very refined technique could compensate for the rubber's behavior...

I've tried several Viscarias within the last two years because so many are playing it. It is still a really fast blade. Maybe it's just a matter of perspective. Here in Germany, a lot of players are still using All+ or Off- blades like Persson Powerallround, Stiga All Classic, Primorac, all the All+ or Primorac clones from Gewo, Andro etc. Maybe where you live and I assume most of you come from USA, a Xiom Offensive S is the slowest blade you can find in the gym. Given that, a Viscaria might not seem like a fast blade which indeed it still is.

NextLevel wrote: The 8/9 yr old 1600 player in my club uses a Viscaria and did so when he was 1100.  Hope that helps.  The new ABS ball has made everything slower.  It is one thing to speak from theory but I work with players.  I used to play with OFF- blades all the time and tried it after the ABS ball change, with the result that I started putting too much effort for too little reward.  IMO, if you want to make someone use a beginner set up with proper strokes, put on some hybrid or Chinese rubber with tack.   But a Viscaria is roughly the slowest blade that one should use.  I am allergic to ALC blades so I use all wood, but I wouldn't hesitate to put the right kind of player on a Mazunov these days even as a beginner.   I would just put on slower rubber.   But at 1600 with good coaching, a Mazunov is fine. Slower blades to me are more about short game feel. But Chinese or slower rubber is better for that.

I've worked with players also a lot and managed to get two really young kids under the best ten of their class within our region in one year. That you have to put more effort in every shot is the big advantage. You CAN do that and learn a proper stroke with full power from your own. When I was coaching back in the 90s, we had not so much player, who played too fast material. They were lacking own power and the speed out of this material was just to slow. They did not learn to use the full power because if they would have used it, they would have missed every second shot. So they had to rely heavily on the material. Other way around with kids who learned with slower material and proper strokes. When they changed to faster material, they were able to play faster and with more quality.

This is also maybe related to this:

mjamja wrote: If I remember correctly there were some comments that with all wood blades there was more feedback to the player when shots were hit even slightly differently.  So with wood blades, beginners subconscious learning correct stroking was quicker.   I believe there was some thinking that touch was learned more quickly with wood for the same reason.  The touch learned on the wood supposedly carried over even after switching to carbon. Have no knowledge to form opinion on either of above.  Just writing some of reasons I remember reading. Mark

The "touch" which you're referring Mark, is the ability to do the shots even slightly different. With fast material, 90% of the shots which are not hit correctly will end up in the net or most of the time off the table. With someone who is developing, this is really not helping because the player really has no clue what is wrong. Someone with experience and proper foundation knows what is happening and can adapt. To get there, you need a certain amount of feeling and experience what happens when you do this different. The "touch" carries over indeed to carbon. If you've learned the basics, you will immediately know how to adapt your strokes on faster material and carbon blades. But how do you want to do it, when your strokes are not perfect and most importantly consistent. Most intermediate players even don't have consistent strokes. Every strok is different and most of the intermediate players even don't recognize what they did different and just wonder, why 50% of their stroke are failures or too slow.

Valiantsin wrote: I started to have TT trainings 5 years ago at the age of 32.  Was total newbie. In 2 months read articles and saw really experienced guy with TB Alc and t05 and t64. Wanted such a setup really much and it lasted for 3 more months during which I tried to find according to forums advices something slower, but didn't like it cause thought it was a matter of equipment that my topspin was not powerful enough. Looking at my hesitation, my coach told me to take that TB Alc and let's start trainings. I took))) In 2 years my level grown to something like 2200 in US. Btw I changed 1 tb Alc to 2 one because broke first)) After that viscaria light and after that trapped to ifl Alc and xiom feel zx1. So current situation is that I need slower setup just because I can use it in my play style better, not because I had to start with it.

Of course, there are always exceptions to a rule but please, don't use this single example to use it as a rule for all players out there.

icontek wrote: Have you tried Mark V with the ABS balls? It simply does not bite the ball the way that it would grab celluloid. What frequently happens is that you get a lot of medium speed balls that go long because they lack topspin. I suppose that very refined technique could compensate for the rubber's behavior...

Yes I have and I use a Mendo and Mendo Energey to test new blades.

Just some food for thought:

Okay.  I just presented my experience so it can be compared to yours.   People can train however they want and decide.  My main point is that the new ball makes it far easier to use a faster blade.  If speed (the realsense of the ball) is a concern, use stickier rubber.  If you don't agree with this, that is fine.  But If you think you can use a fast blade with stickier rubber and play lazy strokes, try it sometime. 

To me a 1600 player is not a beginner.  At that level while some people have slower setups to improve, some also use faster setups. So it isn't a one size fits all thing.

1600 is not anywhere near there. I mean, be honest, how many top spin to top spin rallies do you see in a match between 1600 players? How often does one player has to overcome the spin of the other player? 

In this regions, a decent serve might be enough to win you easily 4-5 points. 

This is what I found on YT. Under 1600 means that at least in the finals both of them should be around 1600 or even on the brink of getting above it.

Hi Ingo_Ger,

The main idea is following:

1) For amateurs without trainings - YOU CAN USE ANY BLADE YOU LIKE - because you play for fun - so buy whatever blade you like and play;

1) For amateurs with trainings - YOU CAN USE ANY BLADE YOU LIKE - because you have to train hard to achieve something and it does not matter which blade you use to train cause coach will anyway take a look at most important: legs and movement - so buy whatever blade you like and train;

Common is: YOU CAN USE ANY BLADE YOU LIKE

Buying a blade can be tricky. You need one that most importantly feels good in the hand. Then you need one that fits your style. I wish I could recommend a good cheap blade but I think going to a shop and holding them is probably the most important. For me the Timo Boll line of blades handle is amazing and I'm going with one of the lighter and slower setups: the ZLF. The ALC is like a hammer in comparison to me. These are not cheap. Blades last a long time so perhaps money shouldn't be a consideration.

If it were me and no access to a shop for testing I would order a ton of cheap Chinese 'clone' blades at $10-$20 each until I found one I liked. Yinhe has copied all of the popular ones. I'd also have a file and sand paper ready for some modifications until it feels good.

For rubber - get some Chinese rubber on the forehand. $5 to $20.

Backhand one could go with Chinese again or go with some of the cheaper options from Germany/Japan. NextLevel mentioned fast arc G1. Could go with lots of options. Blue fire line from Donic or my old fav baracuda. $5 to $35 again.

I think after spending say $200 on blades from China and $40-$60 on rubber, one could find a decent setup.

Ok but the context of the thread is a 1600 player which is someone who has a basic fundamental understanding of how to play the game. I disagree with what you are saying but it is a little irrelevant here. Generally kids who are going to be good turn out good, and kids who are not will not, and the equipment factors in very little. I have seen many kids transition to carbon blades before 1600 and have gone on to be anywhere from 2000 to 2600. I have seen players stick to control set ups and never learn the proper strokes which you imply they help to teach. If someone is ever going to be advanced (2000+) then I think they should have no problem controlling a blade like Viscaria by the time they are 1600 and won't be hitting every ball out as you suggest, i've seen it happen like this for ages

Or the rubber is too grippy/reactive for you to control?

Could be both rubber or the blade. I basically can push any serve low and spinny with my current setup which I'm quite happy with. 

So what was http://mytabletennis.net/forum/solutions-for-this-serve_topic89020_post1103893.html" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/solutions-for-this-serve_topic89020_post1103893.html then about? :-)

Middle of the road in speed stiffness and hardness blade with medium hardness rubbers is the correct recommendation for a looper of that level, if he wants to improve fast.

That is one valid opinion - the point of this thread is that there are others.  In fact, I avoided using fast blades on a consistent basis until very recently, and I am not entirely sold that it helped my growth.

The way I look at it, anything under 1500Hz is reasonably good.  And I have seen many players get better with stuff stiffer than that.

Rubber wise hurricane 3 works well, or for a more european feel, one of the early tensors like the joola energy if they still make it. For a hybrid feel, the haifu whale shark or whale ii are good if you don't mind they technically aren't on the ittf list (ittf had a dispute with haifu, the rubber was still judged OK on the test). 

I concur with you on this 100% 

 .. Infact, the recommendations I had made were of alternatives to the likes of Viscaria and TBALC; but thats cause I have no idea of USATT ratings ..  I thought the requirement is for a intermediate to advance player .. 

However, if the requirement is for a beginner to advance-beginner, then Viscaria or the likes of it, is certainly not the way to go, even if you can well afford it .. 

I would recommend an all wood blade ... Loads and loads of options .. 

For rubbers, my personal view is that classic Chinese tacky rubbers are best to learn proper strokes ... DHS Neo 3 Hurricane is one option ..  

I agree with you, when you say that theres a significant difference between Chinese, and Euro/Jap style of rubbers.. 

On the other hand, here's the logic my pea-sized brain came-up with a while back, and applies purely to players at a beginner/developing level ... 

Hard'ish , tacky Chinese style rubbers are more demanding, in terms of proper stroke-technique, positioning and footwork, when compared to Euro-Jap rubbers.. 

To put it in a nutshell - the very fact that these rubbers can very un-forgiving, if the technique is not correct, makes them a good choice, for someone still learning the ropes..

Yep .. I wouldn't recommend 47° - 51° to any beginner ...  which is why I said hard'ish, meaning something around 39° - 42° at the most. 

That's a fair point. Maybe I would add that some players have a stronger impact on one side, so they might as well use a bit harder rubbers there. I would give them medium or medium soft rubbers that are not too fast and have a decently grippy top sheet. Might as well recommend the cheap ass mercury II again, you can choose between three hardnesses, it's inexpensive, has good control and can be played all the way until advanced (boosted then though). So it's perfect for beginners. In fact I still play it on BH to this day.

Obviously way too late for an answer, but I would like to suggest a cheap, yet excellent setup for ambitious improving club players:

Blade: Should be Wood and not too hard - personally I recommend either Yasaka Gaiten Extra OR OSP Virtuoso (for those who need something faster but with equal feel) 

FH Rubber: HK1997 Gold  - Incredible, cheap yet amazing! Similar but for me, better than MX-P

Control, spin, Loop, Drive, Block, feel - are all incredible - it is a hard rubber but not rock hard. 

BH Rubber: AK47 Red (Or yellow if you need a soft BH rubber, but I much prefer Red) - again cheap and super good rubber.  Very similar to Stiga Mantra M (but 1/3 the price!). Block is the best, insensitive to spin, generates good spin of its own, easy to do anything......maybe a modern (much faster) Sriver. 

Enjoy!

I saw Ingo's post way too late... of course it isn't about young vs old, it was just cool to tell that story.

I can say I really like Ingo logically articulating WHY he feels a certain path is good... so many will not do that.

Recently, one of the world's most PROLIFIC EJs sent me ANOTHER one of my favorite blades (an ancient Nittaku Mono Blade all wood) with two different sheets of the latest BTY Dignics rubbers... I hit with that missile launcher a few times and pretty much immediately realized this kind of setup is preety optimal for only the crowd who is already a high level and is seeking to get into fast exchanges in open play to win the point with a superior firepower advantage. NOT the setup for me.

It made me appreciate the time recently that THE SAME EJ got me to use a Donic Persson Power Play OFF- blade with softer rubbers for a year to gain more touch and ability to construct points. He did me a real favor with that...

... and that is pretty much the class of what I see Ingo recommending... all with good reasons whether some better player can break it down for you or not.

I was juggling between Viscaria and the Hurricane Long 5, and I went for the Long 5 back then and never really looked back. But I'm pretty sure I would have done fine with a Viscaria too.

Never heard of that blade before....

I think OSP all wood blades are just the best for improving players, they have both a lot of control / feel + enough power to accelerate. Virtuoso is my favourite. 

https://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/dhs-w968-hurricane-long-5-national" rel="nofollow - https://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/dhs-w968-hurricane-long-5-national

Lmao that is one expensive blade!!