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process to develop a good FH flick

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    Posted: 01/04/2020 at 8:32pm
So I've recently been working on one of my major weaknesses which is my FH flick. Was wondering, for those of you who have experience developing this technique, how did you go about learning it to a high level? What was the process like for you personally? And what were the really important tips/tricks you learnt along the way?

Right now I'm just trying with one of my practice partners who wants to practice his serves to the short FH corner. So pretty much he serves, I flick and we play out the point. Is that a good way to learn?

Any good video tutorials are also welcome. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2020 at 9:32pm
FH flick is an advanced technique and is a weakness for many shakehand players. Serving short to FH or center is a popular strategy and the serve can be very difficult to return if you don't know how to FH flick, especially if the serve is top or no spin. Honestly, the best way to learn is to really just multiball it and gain muscle memory. It simply isn’t a shot that you make frequently and if you don’t train the flick repetitively, you will never learn it. 

Even after you learn how to do the shot, you'll struggle executing it in the game because you need to anticipate in advance that you need to do the FH flick. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2020 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

FH flick is an advanced technique and is a weakness for many shakehand players. Serving short to FH or center is a popular strategy and the serve can be very difficult to return if you don't know how to FH flick, especially if the serve is top or no spin. Honestly, the best way to learn is to really just multiball it and gain muscle memory. It simply isn’t a shot that you make frequently and if you don’t train the flick repetitively, you will never learn it. 

Even after you learn how to do the shot, you'll struggle executing it in the game because you need to anticipate in advance that you need to do the FH flick. 

Yeah definitely the hardest shot to learn in the game imo. The chiquita is so easy comparatively. Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2020 at 11:03pm
Practice with a left hander, and ask him to serve short to the center and wide FH alternatively.
The most difficult part of the flip is getting there in time and having the right distance from the ball.
Start with soft flipping and then gradually go fast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/05/2020 at 1:56am
For a flip-kill use the back to front wrist motion it adds a lot of power.
Don't know about flipping spinny serves but pros never really seem to flip serves with forehand, it's either a bh flick or fh stop push.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/05/2020 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

For a flip-kill use the back to front wrist motion it adds a lot of power.
Don't know about flipping spinny serves but pros never really seem to flip serves with forehand, it's either a bh flick or fh stop push.

Think it's more about attacking loose balls on the FH short area. My go to is the chop smash now but would love to have a more solid FH flick to punish these kind of balls. 

Agree that directly flipping spinny serves is really difficult! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/05/2020 at 7:52pm
I like to think of the flick as a mini loop over the table. Too often I struggled thinking that the flick is about hitting through with an open paddle (v. short underspin serves) and that was my wrong mindset. If I now consider the flick as a loop where I do not have enough space to do the back swing because the table is in the way, I can still throw the paddle down for a mini wrist based backswing; then I contact the ball after the wrist spring effect and the following wrist snap, the rubber grabs the ball in the same angle that a normal loop would.
People struggling with the flick often know how to loop because the flick is an intermediate to advanced stroke. So by considering the flick from the perspective of another stroke they know well, they can connect to it with less frustrations, they don't start from scratch.



Edited by stiltt - 01/05/2020 at 7:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/05/2020 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

I like to think of the flick as a mini loop over the table. Too often I struggled thinking that the flick is about hitting through with an open paddle (v. short underspin serves) and that was my wrong mindset. If I now consider the flick as a loop where I do not have enough space to do the back swing because the table is in the way, I can still throw the paddle down for a mini wrist based backswing; then I contact the ball after the wrist spring effect and the following wrist snap, the rubber grabs the ball in the same angle that a normal loop would.
People struggling with the flick often know how to loop because the flick is an intermediate to advanced stroke. So by considering the flick from the perspective of another stroke they know well, they can connect to it with less frustrations, they don't start from scratch.


Hmm interesting perspective, I'll definitely keep this in mind when I practice!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 5:53am
Some ideas which might help..

Get close the ball, step in so you have good control over your racket arm. Many players try to play the flick at distance and don't have the arm control and fine motor movement to execute the shot correctly.

Like Stiltt says try and brush. Great advice/idea to think of a mini loop on this on.

Don't try and hit the ball to hard to start get the mechanics right and movement first.

It's a tricky shot btw and to add quality to the shot takes a fair while if it isn't nature.

Cheers

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 2:37pm
I had something else written as a Tip of the Week, but this seemed timely, so I wrote How to Develop a Nasty Forehand Flip in my blog today. It's also up as a Butterfly News Item. (I hope the moderators don't mind that I'm posting links here to my blog - but they are rather timely, and I haven't done it in a while. If they request, I'll delete the postings.)
-Larry Hodges
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 3:18pm
Nice Writing Larry cracking
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 3:42pm

I think power comes from extension and then flexion of the wrist, swinging the paddle parallel to the table prior to contact, or both. Spin comes from pronation or supination followed by pronation ---  pivoting or wiping the paddle on a curved path similar to windshield wipers; hitting above the equator of the ball, or both. Practice these movements separately and then combine then. Then it's all about anticipation, footwork into the table, and timing through loads of practice.

I suppose you can also just hit the ball too, but that's more risky and relies on good touch in adjusting the racket face, depending on the incoming spin and its intensity. 


Edited by racquetsforsale - 01/06/2020 at 3:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:


I think power comes from extension and then flexion of the wrist, swinging the paddle parallel to the table prior to contact, or both. Spin comes from pronation or supination followed by pronation ---  pivoting or wiping the paddle on a curved path similar to windshield wipers; hitting above the equator of the ball, or both. Practice these movements separately and then combine then. Then it's all about anticipation, footwork into the table, and timing through loads of practice.

I suppose you can also just hit the ball too, but that's more risky and relies on good touch in adjusting the racket face, depending on the incoming spin and its intensity. 

Great video, never seen that before! I think Ma Long probably has the best FH flick in the world and it shows in his textbook technique. 

Some takeaways looking at the video. His elbow is usually quite close to the body during the start of the stroke. Sometimes I feel I probably start with too straight an arm. The other thing is that he seems to actively brush the ball - his flip ends up in the salute position similar to a loop - if it was just directly forward his end position would be quite different. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 7:01pm
that's a fantastic video racquetsforsale, thanks. ma long does it so fluidly in a nonchalant way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 7:03pm
Several from Li Ping playing practice points later in video:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Great video, never seen that before! I think Ma Long probably has the best FH flick in the world and it shows in his textbook technique. 

Some takeaways looking at the video. His elbow is usually quite close to the body during the start of the stroke. Sometimes I feel I probably start with too straight an arm. The other thing is that he seems to actively brush the ball - his flip ends up in the salute position similar to a loop - if it was just directly forward his end position would be quite different. 

I see him hitting the ball at least 2 ways. For the parallel shot, he's kinda hit-spinning/carrying/lifting the ball with an open face and a relatively straight arm. For the diagonal shot, he snaps his forearm and "rolls over the ball."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

that's a fantastic video racquetsforsale, thanks. ma long does it so fluidly in a nonchalant way.

Always happy to share.
I also came across a video of Calderano FH flipping absolute bullets in practice. I'll see if I can locate it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Great video, never seen that before! I think Ma Long probably has the best FH flick in the world and it shows in his textbook technique. 

Some takeaways looking at the video. His elbow is usually quite close to the body during the start of the stroke. Sometimes I feel I probably start with too straight an arm. The other thing is that he seems to actively brush the ball - his flip ends up in the salute position similar to a loop - if it was just directly forward his end position would be quite different. 

I see him hitting the ball at least 2 ways. For the parallel shot, he's kinda hit-spinning/carrying/lifting the ball with an open face and a relatively straight arm. For the diagonal shot, he snaps his forearm and "rolls over the ball."
The parallel shot is more like a sideswipe like the one that Waldner loves to use. I use it all the time but it's much more effective if you can combine it with a true flick....people get used to it and just loop it hard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2020 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Great video, never seen that before! I think Ma Long probably has the best FH flick in the world and it shows in his textbook technique. 

Some takeaways looking at the video. His elbow is usually quite close to the body during the start of the stroke. Sometimes I feel I probably start with too straight an arm. The other thing is that he seems to actively brush the ball - his flip ends up in the salute position similar to a loop - if it was just directly forward his end position would be quite different. 

I see him hitting the ball at least 2 ways. For the parallel shot, he's kinda hit-spinning/carrying/lifting the ball with an open face and a relatively straight arm. For the diagonal shot, he snaps his forearm and "rolls over the ball."
The parallel shot is more like a sideswipe like the one that Waldner loves to use. I use it all the time but it's much more effective if you can combine it with a true flick....people get used to it and just loop it hard.

I know the sideswipe you're talking about, but I don't think that's what ML is executing there in the video. Look at how long the stroke path is, starting well behind the table, and the weight transfer. It's a lot more aggressive than the sideswipe. Check out the Li Ping video. He hits the same aggressive shot several times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 4:39am
Both flicks are really strong. Li Pings seems a bit flatter where Ma Longs seems a deeper brushed ball. Might just be lo ooking for differences which aren't there mind... The prep for each player prior and position, speed of racket head and control of movement is really precise.

Great videos. Many thanks 👍👍
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 4:57am
My teammate who is an expert at forehand flicking and trained several times in china with province team players told me the trick is to press with your index finger just before contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 5:39am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yuri.saldon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 8:11am
A tip that helped me a lot to develop fh flick was to contact the ball at lower side of the racket when it's against underspin do a down/up motion with a open angle.

Edited by yuri.saldon - 01/07/2020 at 8:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 11:39am
Lots of good advice here.  I will add that you should focus on adding a little spin and placement.  Even if not very powerful, a flip is very effective when well placed. Power will come with practice.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

The prep for each player prior and position, speed of racket head and control of movement is really precise.

Excellent point. Though ML is just drilling, both player's early recognition of the length and height of the incoming ball and their preparation quickness are impressive. Their execution is so fast, it's almost as though they're waiting for the ball.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

The prep for each player prior and position, speed of racket head and control of movement is really precise.

Excellent point. Though ML is just drilling, both player's early recognition of the length and height of the incoming ball and their preparation quickness are impressive. Their execution is so fast, it's almost as though they're waiting for the ball.



Thanks racketforsale. When we were away training recently picked up alot about preperation, precision and a fair bit about flicks. Kinda stuck straightaway. Getting it into the match at a quality level mind under pressure is another thing. 

Cheers 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/08/2020 at 1:45am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Great video, never seen that before! I think Ma Long probably has the best FH flick in the world and it shows in his textbook technique. 

Some takeaways looking at the video. His elbow is usually quite close to the body during the start of the stroke. Sometimes I feel I probably start with too straight an arm. The other thing is that he seems to actively brush the ball - his flip ends up in the salute position similar to a loop - if it was just directly forward his end position would be quite different. 

I see him hitting the ball at least 2 ways. For the parallel shot, he's kinda hit-spinning/carrying/lifting the ball with an open face and a relatively straight arm. For the diagonal shot, he snaps his forearm and "rolls over the ball."
The parallel shot is more like a sideswipe like the one that Waldner loves to use. I use it all the time but it's much more effective if you can combine it with a true flick....people get used to it and just loop it hard.

I know the sideswipe you're talking about, but I don't think that's what ML is executing there in the video. Look at how long the stroke path is, starting well behind the table, and the weight transfer. It's a lot more aggressive than the sideswipe. Check out the Li Ping video. He hits the same aggressive shot several times.

You're right, it's quite a bit more aggressive than the sideswipe, I think it's almost like a combination of the sideswipe and the flick. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/08/2020 at 7:11am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/08/2020 at 10:08am
Nice NL thanks for posting
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/08/2020 at 6:56pm
Actually NL's video is really interesting about not using much wrist at all. In fact I have the same feeling for the loop too. I no longer believe in using the wrist actively -> the spin really comes from the pronation/supination + the forearm snap anyway on both BH and FH. The wrist just needs to be in a comfortable neutral position to provide stability for the stroke. I find stuff like excessive dropping of the wrist unnatural and uncomfortable, and doesn't provide all that much benefits anyway.  
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