Quick way to Gain 500 Usatt Points!

everyone who finds these forums starts off too fast. i started with a galaxy k-4 with iqul 40 max on the fh, now i play with a ye and h3. i noticed immediate improvement.

People call me on the phone and ask about these fast carbon blades.  They always say, "I hit very hard."

some nice group info, some of you guys should be writing books. especially monkey, everything you say is gold.. anyway, it's hard to say what equipment is best. but if you're under 1300 rating and physically fit, using tenergy 2.1 doesn't make sense. anyway, there are lots of steps and levels in ping pong. when you reach different steps, your game plan and mindset changes, and you'll think about changing your equipment if need be.
0-1300 - basics learning step
1300-1800 - advance technique
1800-2000 - consistency and refinement
2000-2200 - power and efficiency
2200+ - pro level/super saiyan?

speedy wrote: popperlocker wrote: I've been seeing some young and fit players that are under 40 years of age that are rated 0-1200 usatt, playing with a fast setups. (main culprit being tenergy) A few of these guys make the hard decision and go to a slow setup, and gain 500 points instantly(a week or so) But the other guys stick with their fast setups and many months go by with no improvement. This has been said by others before, I'll say it again, slow setups allow you to return 5x more balls back. All shots, especially looping become much easier. So to the young guns out there, want to gain 500 points quick? Go to a slow setup. I admit, downgrading, It's a hard thing to do. You see these 2000+ players at the club using fast setups. You want to be like them, hit hard like them. You think sticking it out with a fast setup will eventually pay off. You think you're too good to downgrade, (yeah, i was there) But how are you going to lift a 100lb weight when you can't even lift a 25lb weight?   I am switching to slower setup... I am thinking about switching it one more time... shift my speedy down two gears... It's true that you can return more balls; however, don't go to slow that you can't hit pass anyone anymore.   I will not be "Speedy" anymore after 2 years... I might have to change my nick to "Slowy"

hey speedy

popperlocker wrote: I've been seeing some young and fit players that are under 40 years of age that are rated 0-1200 usatt, playing with a fast setups. (main culprit being tenergy) A few of these guys make the hard decision and go to a slow setup, and gain 500 points instantly(a week or so) But the other guys stick with their fast setups and many months go by with no improvement. This has been said by others before, I'll say it again, slow setups allow you to return 5x more balls back. All shots, especially looping become much easier. So to the young guns out there, want to gain 500 points quick? Go to a slow setup. I admit, downgrading, It's a hard thing to do. You see these 2000+ players at the club using fast setups. You want to be like them, hit hard like them. You think sticking it out with a fast setup will eventually pay off. You think you're too good to downgrade, (yeah, i was there) But how are you going to lift a 100lb weight when you can't even lift a 25lb weight?

yeah, right, and after you get your "slow setup," you better have deep pockets, cuz you're still gonna need to pull out the big bucks to bribe some of these 2000+ players to dump a few matches...

i mean, let's face it, noobies, if you are U-1200 and you want to be at 2000 by the end of the year, bribery is the only way you're gonna get there in that short amount of time...

takaaki wrote: popperlocker wrote: I've been seeing some young and fit players that are under 40 years of age that are rated 0-1200 usatt, playing with a fast setups. (main culprit being tenergy) A few of these guys make the hard decision and go to a slow setup, and gain 500 points instantly(a week or so) But the other guys stick with their fast setups and many months go by with no improvement. This has been said by others before, I'll say it again, slow setups allow you to return 5x more balls back. All shots, especially looping become much easier. So to the young guns out there, want to gain 500 points quick? Go to a slow setup. I admit, downgrading, It's a hard thing to do. You see these 2000+ players at the club using fast setups. You want to be like them, hit hard like them. You think sticking it out with a fast setup will eventually pay off. You think you're too good to downgrade, (yeah, i was there) But how are you going to lift a 100lb weight when you can't even lift a 25lb weight? yeah, right, and after you get your "slow setup," you better have deep pockets, cuz you're still gonna need to pull out the big bucks to bribe some of these 2000+ players to dump a few matches... i mean, let's face it, noobies, if you are U-1200 and you want to be at 2000 by the end of the year, bribery is the only way you're gonna get there in that short amount of time...

I've been meaning to say something along this line too.
Yes some (many) players might benefit from using gear that is more in step with their level but to suggest a 500point increase by doing so is bordering on ludicrous.

You could go from 1200 to 1700 but it will be far more attributable to hard work, tempered by a good coach.
"Right" equipment is a cool third to both of these.

Good Day & Good Hitting  

okay, 0-1200 usatt, gaining 500 is NOT that much! When you play someone under 1700 usatt points. You can do two easy things that will 90% guarantee a win.
Push or Slow loop
Using a control rubber makes these two things much easier!
Obviously, this is not true when you go 1800+

popperlocker wrote: okay, 0-1200 usatt, gaining 500 is NOT that much! When you play someone under 1700 usatt points. You can do two easy things that will 90% guarantee a win. Push or Slow loop Using a control rubber makes these two things much easier! Obviously, this is not true when you go 1800+

Man...that's a pretty low opinion you have of people under 1700.

popperlocker wrote: okay, 0-1200 usatt, gaining 500 is NOT that much! When you play someone under 1700 usatt points. You can do two easy things that will 90% guarantee a win. Push or Slow loop Using a control rubber makes these two things much easier! Obviously, this is not true when you go 1800+

This is not true at all against about anyone not a beginner.  I have played allot of players in the 1500 to 1700 range and every single one of them that is an offensive player can quality loop a deep push and block or counter a slow loop.  And the defensive players in that range don't have trouble with those shots either.  I know players in the 1000 to 1200 range that are pretty good at looping underspin and handling spiny loops.  Consistent pushing and slow looping will work against most beginners with inconsistent games but most players much over 1000 can win if you only push and slow loop.  You have to attack or strategically defend and do so consistently to beat anyone anywhere close to 1700 for sure.  There will be the occasional player in the 1200 to 1500 range that struggles with these shots and you can win with them but that is the exception rather than the rule.

hungry cow wrote: I know players in the 1000 to 1200 range that are pretty good at looping underspin and handling spiny loops.  Consistent pushing and slow looping will work against most beginners with inconsistent games but most players much over 1000 can win if you only push and slow loop.

I disagree entirely.

As someone primarily plays US1000-1200 players, I offer a very different opinion. Someone at this  level might be able to loop a specific (placement, spin amount) underspin ball and counter a specific (placement, spin amount) slow loop, but 1000-1200 level players lack the ability to perform against a range of placements and spins. Universally, players in this range (like myself) lack a comprehensive understanding of spin, footwork and prediction. Because of that, it's actually not to difficult to prevent them from looping successfully (using only pushes and light counters to vary spin and placement).

There's an old saying that you can get to US1600 with JUST A PUSH and it's patently TRUE.

PROOF
This player pushes everything and has great footwork and prediction. He prevents sub 2000 loopers from attacking and frequently beats US1700+ loopers and allaround players. The only other tool in his arsenal (besides the ability to read and place the ball and position himself) is a solid backhand counter against topspin. He has only 2 serves and does not have a loop OR a smash. He controls the table by playing close and maintains decisive control over the angles.

Also, players who incorporate a slow loop in addition to the push can also get to the level.

PROOF
This player has no smashes, no flat game, and not much to describe in terms of a counter game. He reads spin well enough. His footwork and service is only average for his level. What he does have are decent serves and an enormously spinny slow loop and the pushing ability to be patient enough to set up his shot. Ironically, this player usually loses to the player above 90% of matches, even though it's arguable that the latter player has more tools (like a loop) at his disposal.

What's important to note, is that even though these players have limited tools they never lose to US1000-1200 players come tournament time.

4 of these wins are against 1100-1200 loopers

Ok, so maybe if you develop a high level pushing and slow loop game you can beat allot of players up to the 1700 level with the right match ups.  But if this is your game you have no chance to move up to a much higher level.  Offensive players over 2000 can loop the heck out of any deep push and push great themselves, and can counterloop slow spiny loops.  And their footwork and anticipation is good enough you can't outmaneuver them with these strokes.  So my thinking is why learn and engrain a style that will limit how far you can progress?  Because if you have the skill and table sense to play at a good level pushing and slow looping then you can surely be a good allaround player and learn to drive, power loop, and chop the ball intelligently as well and be able to do well against any style of player.

icontek wrote: hungry cow wrote: I know players in the 1000 to 1200 range that are pretty good at looping underspin and handling spiny loops.  Consistent pushing and slow looping will work against most beginners with inconsistent games but most players much over 1000 can win if you only push and slow loop.  I disagree entirely. As someone primarily plays US1000-1200 players, I offer a very different opinion. Someone at this  level might be able to loop a specific (placement, spin amount) underspin ball and counter a specific (placement, spin amount) slow loop, but 1000-1200 level players lack the ability to perform against a range of placements and spins. Universally, players in this range (like myself) lack a comprehensive understanding of spin, footwork and prediction. Because of that, it's actually not to difficult to prevent them from looping successfully (using only pushes and light counters to vary spin and placement). There's an old saying that you can get to US1600 with JUST A PUSH and it's patently TRUE. PROOF This player pushes everything and has great footwork and prediction. He prevents sub 2000 loopers from attacking and frequently beats US1700+ loopers and allaround players. The only other tool in his arsenal (besides the ability to read and place the ball and position himself) is a solid backhand counter against topspin. He has only 2 serves and does not have a loop OR a smash. He controls the table by playing close and maintains decisive control over the angles. Also, players who incorporate a slow loop in addition to the push can also get to the level. PROOF This player has no smashes, no flat game, and not much to describe in terms of a counter game. He reads spin well enough. His footwork and service is only average for his level. What he does have are decent serves and an enormously spinny slow loop and the pushing ability to be patient enough to set up his shot. Ironically, this player usually loses to the player above 90% of matches, even though it's arguable that the latter player has more tools (like a loop) at his disposal. What's important to note, is that even though these players have limited tools they never lose to US1000-1200 players come tournament time. 4 of these wins are against 1100-1200 loopers popperlocker wrote: I meant that players 0-1700 have weaknesses that are not too difficult to exploit. Yes. That's why upsets in these matches frequently occur (bad style matchups). Many under 1700 cannot return slow loops. Or they cannot finish blocked shots. Or cannot loop a decent push.etc. And this is exactly why US1700 level allaround players (the guys who have all the tools, including block, chop, smash, loop, counter, service and push - but nothing great) often fare so well, frequently much better than US1700 "pure" loopers. If the allarounder has a clue, they use a range of skills, strokes and techniques to identify the right tools to exploit their opponents weakness. Realistically though - it's not necessary to have all the tools at sub 1700. You just need to have a couple of good ones that put the ball on the table one more time than your opponent. And you need to be able to control the point, by limiting your opponents choices, and forcing them to make bad decisions. This thread tempts me to post a videos of two of my friends in a match; the US1600 push only player versus a US1700 two winged looper. While the former will likely make most forum members groan, (lack of formal technique, lack of offense) and the latter will induce "ooh's and aah's" (wicked service, powerful and spinny loops, highly trained technique), the results will probably surprise you. What most beginning intermediate players (US1000-1200) can't see is what they don't know. They won't understand how someone who just seems to "stand there" is able to handily beat someone who has "all the tools". Recent Tournament Match Results of the Pusher vs Two US1700 Loopers USATT Link to John Simpson Rating USATT Link to Lucas Soo Rating

I disagree with you. Perhaps it is just being in a more active table tennis area like New York to Maryland area, or the California, or Texas but pushes are weak sauce if you don't have a big follow up. Anyone who plays in a club with a good supply (I.E. a dozen or more) of over 1800 players will have had a good bit of experience being crushed into dust by powerful pushes and supersonic loops/smashes. After practicing with a 2400 one wing power looper though and getting the feel for blocking a massive loop, blocking a weak 1400-1800 loop is much more doable. Just like playing with a 2000 defensive player and learning how to deal with their pushes and chops without netting it every time means when you go back to your own level it is much more controllable.

icontek wrote: hungry cow wrote: Ok, so maybe if you develop a high level pushing and slow loop game you can beat allot of players up to the 1700 level with the right match ups.� But if this is your game you have no chance to move up to a much higher level.� I want to be clear on a couple of things:-I now live in a state with a limited TT population. And heck, I'll be satisfied when I make it to US1500 (that's about the sweet spot for competition, as there are very few > US1700 players in the state - only about 5-6 active, maybe 5-6 inactive). However, I used to live in NJ, and I noticed there as well that players with controlled pushes, blocks and counters using medium speed gear would (more often than not) beat loopers through the 1500's. It was only above 1800 or so that the dominance of looping would shine through.-Like my state, this forum is chock full of US1000-1300 players who have gear as fast as most US2000-2400 players, who have the "loop everything" mentality. While that gear may help produce powerful loops and smashes, more controlled players will PREVENT these players from getting to use these strokes. I was trying to demonstrate that under 1700 or so, power is not all that important (fundamental strokes, placement and tactics are more valuable).-And I didn't mean to derail the thread. I meant to provide examples that slow, controlled equipment allows a player to develop fundamental placement and spin shots that can be chained together into effective strategies that work at a higher level than many of us here at this forum currently play. -Can anyone else back me up that it is better to "set up your point" and take a "high percentage shot" than to be forced into taking a riskier shot?

haha, thread derailed. yeah i think everyone will agree that it's better to take control strokes than to take wild man swings. anyway, lots of you guys have said this, but i would like to say it one more time, for the new players. because when i was starting out, I thought this was total bs. > a slow setup allows you to hit harder. I know it sounds crazy! but it's true, when you use a fast setup it cuts down your time and makes you take crap garage strokes. a slow setup gives you more time, gives you bigger stroke sweet spot, and other good stuff. also, using a slow setup makes all the shots easier, slow loops and fast loops! and also, some people think med or off-speed rackets is a "slow" racket. if you're still making a good amount of unforced errors. try a def rated racket, you will be amazed at the power shots you suddenly are able to make, and your consistency jumps like crazy.

I had a chance to play some "hard working" college kids tonight.

They get to play 4-5 hours a day - LUCKY BASTARDS!. Several of them are clearly have been playing for some time - but many of them have been playing seriously for less than a year.

I was impressed with several things:

1) each had their own already well defined style
(fisher/lobber/counterattacker, BH push/FH loop allarounder, CPEN FH attacker, BH counterdriver, etc).
2) they were able to keep up with (and in some cases beat) several of the 1000-1100 rated people at the club
3) one of the more seasoned guys was responsible for mentoring them.
4) they all had insane work ethics and truly loved the game.

But As one might expect, their equipment ranged from Aged Premade to OFF+. And I am concerned that the young guy with OFF+ gear is going to get discouraged, because while it allowed him to do some great off the table counter driving, it was clear that "too fast" and "too spinny" = "too many unforced errors". And the only "down moment" of the night came when I discovered that the same guy who was mentoring them also helped him select his OFF+ blade/rubbers :(

Of the group, the only player I had trouble with used a careworn premade that produced enough spin to loop and push, but also lots of dead balls. He was nearly immune to service spin and I had to work my ass off in rallies, sometimes allowing him to attack so I could block him out of position or loop wide to his FH. It went 5 games and I snuck by him on fewer unforced errors.


I know that there's a stigma against "basement players" - but in fact, these folk should be the lifeblood of the sport and should be transitioned into club and league play.

But I strongly believe that helping them select REASONABLE gear is a  way that club players can do the responsible thing and support individual growth.

Recently I let several pre-made users try out setups from my EJ collection: an LKT instinct with Inspirit Regular and a Grubba Pro with Focus III. You should have seen the wonderment, it was like kids at Christmas! What impressed me the most was that this gradual step up (in terms of blade speed) meant that they could re-use much of their strokes and tactics; they only had to focus on reading spin, because the gear was forgiving enough to let them "play their game". And the difference in speed and spin that they were able to generate was remarkeable, and in some cases intimidating :)

Many EJ's (myself included) have been conditioned to believe that you can't rip loopkills from mid distance with classic rubber and an ALL+ blade. This is patently false. It simply requires more effort or more efficiency from your technique to do so.

LOB LOB LOOPKILL.

I read some of the responses, but there were a lot, its finals week, and im tired as hell, so im speaking from experience as a usatt 2000 player.

i used to play with a sh*tty balsa blade back when i was 1200, this got me to 1600. i switched to sriver on both sides, offensive classic (a lot slower setup), and got to 1800. when I reached 1800 i switched to a faster setup (tenergy, JO platin soft, and still OC blade), and now im 2000. I'm a two winged looper so it fits my style.

thats a little background on me, heres my experience playing 1200-2200 players:

anyone above 1800 is a respectable table tennis player. sorry to those below that, and i sptne a few years below 1800, but if a bystander who does not play table tennis watches a match between two 1700 players, they will not be impressed. a match between 1900, they will be impressed. 1800 is the cutoff between me going easy on you, or trying my hardest.

nobody should be worrying about fast equipment if you are below 1900 usatt. above 1900, you start worrying about having to hit harder, more consistently, and more spin... below 1800, i can beat you without playing offense, because you make more mistakes than winners. You may hit a winner shot every 5 shots, but the rest of the match i can move you around, block you down, and let you make mistakes. if you are a little better, i can send a slow loop your way, and you'll give me an easy 5th that i can smash. another thign ive noticed, <1800 you have no short game. sorry, but its true. if you serve me short, i can drop it short, and you'll push it long. ive yet to play someone below 1800 that has a respectable short game. this also applies to serve return...both something that i blame on lack of practice, and equipment that is too fast.

that is my personal experience. ive had so many beginners (1000-1200) players come to me and ask me what equipment i use, and i almost dont want to tell them, because ik they'll try it, and a) its an expensive setup, and b) it will not suit their game