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random TT diary of sorts |
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blahness 
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Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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 Posted: 07/21/2022 at 9:42am |
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I'm giving up on developing a BH counterloop - I feel like it's a kinda useless shot for my game. It is way too demanding on accurate positioning of the feet and the eyes locating the ball very precisely in 3D space. Also, due to the emphasis on brushing and producing a lot of power, often it leaves me in a bad position and often late for the next ball. The BH counter is significantly more flexible as you can do quite decent shots even out of position, also it's very simple to vary and disguise the shot direction, and the stroke is quite controllable. The main disadvantage with the basic BH counter is the lack of shot quality (spin and speed) which means some opponents just take a step back and they're no longer troubled by the speed. So what I'm toying around with is to add a bit of a wrapping movement (not a crazy amount but just some - the main stroke is still hitting through the ball) to create more spin, more stability in the BH counter and simply use that. This also has the advantage because I can simply vary the amount of wrapping I do to create spin variation on the fly.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/21/2022 at 10:48am |
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One of the most effective ways I've learnt to change the direction of the BH counter is to change the direction of the weight transfer. So from the half squat position, when coming up to attack the ball, mentally I can either think about pressing on the right foot - this will transfer weight to the right foot and produce a diagonal shot with the classical left to right weight transfer. If I wanted to go down the line, I think about pressing on the left foot, which produces the right to left weight transfer (opposite) which allows for more direct body power behind a down the line shot. I found this method to be superior to the fade method (which is cool but inconsistent and power is always lacking), or degree of body rotation (easiest to read as the opponent already can tell the shot direction from the shoulders). It is also consistent (you can use the exact same arm movements for both diagonal and down the line shots) and easier on the hand because the body power is behind the shot always regardless of direction (rather than say having the body power not being applied in the same line as the outgoing ball direction).
The basic idea is to half squat to prepare for the shot, but the hip is a very flexible joint, which allows one to come up from the squat to face many different directions (the angle range is pretty much just limited by the feet direction), this is super deceptive because the preparation will look exactly the same (from the half squat position). Edited by blahness - 07/22/2022 at 9:50am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/22/2022 at 10:07am |
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After watching some matches and being in absolute awe of Xiang Peng and Lin Shidong FH flicks - I watched them closer in slowmo - they do not drop their wrist at all when they're doing their insane flick kills - in fact the blades are usually pointing slightly up, not completely horizontal. I tried that change and immediately felt a significant improvement in power transfer kinetic chain - also seems that this would result in much more solid contact. Reminds me a bit of the badminton netkill shot. Will definitely try this - if I can develop a strong FH flick too, I can punish a lot of the no spin or sidespin serves to my FH, which is what everyone's exploiting at the moment ugh...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/24/2022 at 4:37am |
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Omfg I tested the new FH flick movement on the table and am loving it so much. Finally, it feels powerful and deadly, and I can generate quite a bit of topspin on it too, and it felt super easy to control the direction too! Can't wait to test it out in some matches haha... now they have no safe space to serve their bullshit sidetopspin and no spin serves without getting attacked hard....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 07/24/2022 at 5:11pm |
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The only catch with matches is you don't always know your opponents serving arsenal/tendencies. Still be ready to unleash it. I tend to be cautious on serves early on playing someone until I have babied a few back at least.
I like the FH flick I see some others do where their feet are off the ground to reach the shot. Impressive.
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blahness
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Posted: 07/24/2022 at 6:16pm |
I actually got to do a few FH flicks with the feet off the ground yesterday.... I didn't realise how important not dropping the wrist is. The really hard part is recovering after a flick to loop the next ball - there seems to be 2 schools of thought here, 1 is a quick off the bounce loop focusing on placement and taking it early - 2 is a standard powerloop. After experimenting I kinda feel 1 is easier to execute because it's very difficult to have the feet in position to powerloop after the 1st flick gets returned. Yeah I hate having to decipher new serves.... There's a lot of ppl out there with really tricky serves, especially the older folk....it's super annoying when they receive your serves perfectly well and then you eat their serves for breakfast. And a lot of them are really sneaky with it too. Nevertheless, I don't push a lot in my games because I don't like giving the initiative to the other player. I always favour looping and chiquita which are my strengths. The only underspin shots I do are fake opening loops and fake chiquitas, fake FH flicks - but usually those only work against aggressive players, not against passive players who adapt to the spin more easily. I'm working on varying the placement of my BH loop receive of long serves down the line with the new directional disguise I learnt. I tend to be a bit more gung ho these days. Better to lose playing spectacularly than win playing ugly :)
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 07/24/2022 at 8:06pm |
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I think my age, fitness and general lack of built up muscle has sub-consciously withdrawn me from the spectacular gun-ho => toward the if I want to play for 3 hours non-stop I have to also chop and block.
That and fetching the ball on lower percentage shots hitting the edge of the blade. I still get sore after playing now that I have LP twiddling, but no where near as much as ripping loops both wings. I do get the 'ugly' concept. I also think it is not wonderful to watch people missing potentially spectacular shots :)
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blahness
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Posted: 07/24/2022 at 8:50pm |
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For me table tennis is my aerobic exercise of choice (I hate running or swimming or biking), so it doesn't make sense for me to play passively and then not achieving my goals of aerobic fitness and body fat % reduction coz I've been playing like a sloth. Ive recently been lifting 2-3x a week too and doing a high protein low carb diet to lose the lockdown fat which has been relatively successful so far. That said, aggressive TT is really hard when on a calorie restricted diet - I feel like I have to really push myself especially at the 2hr mark. My legs and glutes start to really burn at that point.
Hahaha life's too short not to make spectacular shots - for me it is what makes table tennis fun. I'm still waiting to do my first roller shot (around the net which barely bounces)! Also, I feel like I don't play frequently enough to win at the touch game against some of those old players who play like 5-6 days a week. They really do have some insane feeling for the ball even if their strokes are relatively weaker. So I actually get better results against them when I leverage my strengths which are my physical strength and try to overwhelm them with superior shot quality (since I'm not gonna beat them in the medium pace game), then I have a chance. Otherwise they pretty much destroy me with their 1001 nasty combinations ugh. "Everyone has a plan 'till they get loopkilled down the line." applies in TT
 Edited by blahness - 07/24/2022 at 9:02pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 07/24/2022 at 9:36pm |
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I do this backhand extremely sidespin serve from my fh side to their fh but much wider that makes me a lot of points against most people unless they push... a couple of days ago, one of these stronger players (I was told just before I played them they would kill me) who is very strong on loop kill, absolutely killed it around the net. I applauded him for it.
I beat him 3:1 in the match and that same serve he air swung, or failed to return it to the table 50% of the time. Ugly to see anyone fail to return so often. If you saw him training with the other guy (of same standard in quality power loops) for the first 2 hours you'd think they were pros or at least the best players in the packed club. Anyhow, it is fun to loop kill the ball off someone's pretty tight serve for sure. Love the look on their face demoralised. Probably the best shot Hurricane 2 excells at. The tack and almost horizontal bat angle it demands for the shot is perfect. Keep cool :)
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blahness
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Posted: 07/24/2022 at 11:37pm |
If he had played control/pushing, he might not have won anyways. There's a lot more to TT than FH topspin vs block lol... (what everyone trains for 90% of the time for some unknown reason). Imo at the amateur circuit the way I spot really good players is from the serve/receive quality for the most part... Being good at looping doesn't mean shit if you get destroyed in serve/receive. I spend a lot of time working on serve/receive too. Btw this is the exact serve where a FH flick would be much better suited as compared to a FH loop, unless the serve actually goes a bit longer that it almost exits the rear line of the table in length. Almost every player worth some salt knows that the FH short corner is a weakness for the majority of shakehand players because very few ppl figured out how to FH flick reliably to punish these sorts of balls (it's not a natural stroke at all!). It's all FH hook/reverse/tomahawk serve or BH serves to the FH short corner followed by some pop up or mistake and then end the point via loopkill. Lol I use the exact same pattern shamelessly too
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/25/2022 at 9:51pm |
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On BH followthroughs, I find that the reverse salute stance like what Lim Jonghoon does (with the blade pointing up, blade facing the right, and reaching a position slightly to the right of the face) works better for me as it puts less strain on the forearm muscles as it involves more of the bigger muscle groups in the upper arm and back. There's a bit more topspin component when I use this followthrough too which helps with the unforced error rates. The weakness is in recovery speed as the stroke is larger compared to a more compact stroke, but I still like it!
Furthermore, it's now incredibly similar to a badminton BH lift, which also helps because I play both sports haha.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/27/2022 at 8:44am |
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Tried to play attacking against this amazing rally player and lost most games still. Apparently the only way I can beat him is to convert it to an underspin game and play pushing (even long balls!) till I get a good chance to finish it hard, and/or let him make the mistakes attacking instead. It's a very strange dynamic.... So against him, the optimal play against a long fast topspin serve is not to loop/counter, but to chopblock it to invite the push to attack hard, or invite the loop that I can block to some awkward position.
His blocks and counterloops are just a bit too much for me to handle, I almost feel like I had no advantage even when I looped first wtf.... He also serves a lot of long serves with weak spin to invite the first loop lol (he takes a step back after that long serve) Due to the problems I had getting my loops past him, I plan to shorten my FH stroke even more to make it much more concentrated so that I can recover faster and do more damage closer to the table. Also I attempted a lot of BH down the line harder loops, I think I'm getting the hang of them now but tbh the success rates are still not that amazing compared to the diagonal ones, but I'll have to work harder on it. They looked amazing when they landed though! Edited by blahness - 07/27/2022 at 9:22am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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vanjr
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Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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Posted: 07/27/2022 at 9:40am |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/27/2022 at 10:03am |
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yeah there's certainly some weird af matchups. But for me attacking is fun and gives me the most room for improvement, since I used to be more on the tricks side (even as an inverted player). I want to improve my attacking skills too which is why I insisted on playing like that even though I knew it was the losing strategy, it's all casual matches anyways. It's kinda like Truls vs Lim Jonghoon at the WTTC. Truls tried to play an honest attacking game and got destroyed hard, it was only after he started using all the chopblocks, flat smashes and all the bag of tricks that he won easily. Sometimes TT is weird like that.
But he definitely exposed some weaknesses in my topspins. I rely way too much on a big first attack (which most ppl don't return well unlike him), and am usually a bit unprepared for the second topspin. I realised that I need to really shorten my FH stroke to keep up the aggressive play in the rallies and work more on the BH down the line - and work more on the footwork to handle all the transitions. |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 07/27/2022 at 6:23pm |
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If he beat you at your own game, then you have found the right person to train against more. Especially if he was keeping it on the table against your fastest and spinniest attacks.
The only other alternative is mixing up your speed/spin but still not going to the push chopping. Possibly more side spin hook and fade to the loops maybe? |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/27/2022 at 9:00pm |
Yeah, I pretty much never won much against him unless I pull out my bag of tricks (all the fake underspin flicks or loops, chopblocks, sidespin hook/fade pushes with sidetop or sideunder, playing the extreme angles with most balls exiting the side of the table, etc) and dragging him down into the mud of ugly TT (then I win against him quite consistently). Either that or I go into training mode, simply not attacking hard and just doing easy topspin countering from the first shot and see who is more consistent (I win like 60% of the time in this) The thing with attacking is that sometimes his blocks are very soft and there's almost no energy on the ball, but yet it's low and a bit short too making it hard to attack continuously, other times he adds this wrist flick on his blocks and they are then jumping at me. Playing placement doesn't help much since he has quite good footwork and reaches most balls, and contorts his stroke quite well to reach middle area attacks too. Going for the angles with sidespin actually increases my risks of missing without really improving the win odds. My issue is that I don't have a fast concentrated FH, it's all too smooth and loopy at the moment which tbh is exactly what feeds a good blocker. I tested something which had a lot of promise, which is to do close to 0 backswing, keep the racket high, place weight on right foot and do the weight transfer to the left foot while forearm pronating through the ball, with close to no followthrough too - most of the power is coming from the weight transfer, worked reasonably well in training although I'm not super consistent with it yet.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/29/2022 at 9:46am |
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Started to rejig my FH structure to reduce the movement to the absolute minimum required coz I was really annoyed at losing to this rally player. I realised the few things that are downright required. I tried to do away with the salute and it just didn't work lol. Somehow bringing the bat not high enough with the strokes just results in a subpar forehand topspin with insufficient arc and consistency. However it's just finishing high, you still have to bring a lot of power, contacting the ball at near perpendicularly. I'm starting to see the value in Aruna's crazy looking FH loop.
Weight transfer is definitely required. What is not required is actually the backswing. As long as I get to this "power position" with the legs bent and racket behind the ball in a crouched position leaning forward, that's all the "backswing" that is needed. This is regardless of the spin on the incoming ball. Somehow, simplifying the stroke actually increased my FH power even further. I tried it against a couple of good blockers in the club and it was starting to overwhelm their defences. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to find something similar for the BH. I realised what my BH is incredibly weak against, shoulder high balls with pace (especially with weird spins). Sometimes I would rather have a low ball to loop than these awkward monsters. I need to find some solutions for them.
Edited by blahness - 07/29/2022 at 10:16am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 07/29/2022 at 7:18pm |
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I'm surprised you notice such details about your own strokes. Self awareness and heading to the club with a tip to try out or focus on is essential for bigger gains.
I remember when I was full on serious wanting to be the best I possibly could be. I wrote notes after each session (bit like we are foruming now), what worked, who caused trouble, what that trouble was exactly, some ways to try to tackle the trouble. And cycle through that and revisit pages from a while back to see if it is 'solved'... Really there is a whole gradient of FH topspin. Only really two opposite end points. 0 = still paddle block the topspin 1 = block with slight forward on the back of the ball - 1.5 = from slight back swing first 2 = block slight forward higher up etc. to graze/brush - 2.5 = with slight back swing 2.6 = with more and more back swing 3 = can't call it a block top spin with slight backswing 3.5 = big back swing etc. 10. Monster backswing smash 10.5 drive 10.9 Monstrous loop with full backswing, body transfer, the blade almost knocks you unconscious in a salute (have seen that happen!) |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/29/2022 at 8:40pm |
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Yeah I guess I'm good with details like that... I always like to surprise my friends with some new stuff that I've learnt. It's part of the fun in table tennis too.
What I'm trying to do now is go to level 9-10 without much backswing at all, and seeing what I can get away without compromising the essentials of the stroke. The problem with backswing is that it costs time and time is always a premium in table tennis especially when playing against good blockers.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 07/29/2022 at 8:59pm |
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It's going to pretty hard to use the full potential of either of the rubbers you use without much backswing against a medium paced block.
I'm still in a not sure land with MXP because it is quite dense. My plan is to spend time slogging into it as hard as possible to see if I can get up to the that kind of 'line' of the unblockable either with speed or spin. You said you work out, maybe try laying on the ground with a dumbell and train accelerating your arms in the direction of the topspin stroke repeatedly, till that muscle group in particular is like a extreme muscle memorised slingshot. Or maybe Im just crazy...
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blahness
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Posted: 07/29/2022 at 10:30pm |
Yeah I am physically stronger than many TT players so I can produce quite a lot of power in general which I plan to use to my full advantage...which means I can reduce the amount of rotation I do and still get good power behind the loop. Tbh most of the power comes from the legs anyway, training the arms is not that useful imo. I think cable core rotation for the FH and deadlifts for the BH are the closest gym exercises to the corresponding loop movement. The hand is more like a conduit of power and a force multiplier to control the arc and direction of the ball. But if the arm movement is not correct, the leg power applied on the ball will have no control which results in many errors. imo I compensate for my lack of hours on the table with power... I have worse feeling for the ball compared to many players at my level....
Edited by blahness - 07/29/2022 at 10:34pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 07/30/2022 at 4:31am |
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There is for sure an advantage to being fit. Time at the table is hard to beat though (being fit overlaps that). Quality time is more specifically important too. I remember when I reached my best playing:
There was a guy who had a coach, multiball, and would only play the best players. Constantly training routines with them. I bought a robot, and played everyone I could. No coach. Avoid drills like the plague. Until I gave up the sport we reached the same level (I'd beat him in comp and then he'd beat me etc....) And I put that down to the main difference being he has a better forehand, and I had a better feeling for how points can be won in the real world. There so much weirdness in table tennis, especially trying to return some wacky new serve, dealing with some weird rubber, someone who is exceptional at some part of the game in some weird arse way etc. and without time at the table facing tons of it, it is hard to see real results on the ladder no matter how fit your are and how much you play two wing highly ranked players. Any way rant over :) |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/31/2022 at 3:46am |
Yeah TT is a sport where technical stuff is a lot more important than sheer physicality. There's a lot of weird shit in it in general and ppl who play weird are often rewarded for it. It can be a bit unsatisfying in general as a sport imo....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/31/2022 at 3:55am |
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I finally have what I was looking for on the BH, the "power position" from which I can unleash max power on the ball without much backswing. It even works for counterloops - I felt confident enough to BH counterloop too. Will take some time to get used to it. It's a bit hard on the forearms tho... Played a round robin, tried all my new strokes and lost like five best of 5s in the decider wtf. I missed way too many FHs long coz of the stupid hardened D09c which refused to spin the ball strong enough to pull the balls down onto the table, and also my service spin was just lacking despite the effort I was putting into the serve. My conclusion is that it must be a bad batch - my last D09c lasted for easily a year and remained a spin monster at the end, this felt like I was playing with old unboosted Sriver wtf... And with the amount of power that I usually put into the FH, any lack of spin and the ball will sure fly long. At least I'm a bit closer to my goal of six pack abs. I found that TT is quite effective in fat loss when coupled with a caloric deficit. I pretty much just cut by 0.1-0.2kg every time I play because I only drink plain water during the session.
Edited by blahness - 07/31/2022 at 4:10am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
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Posted: 07/31/2022 at 9:12am |
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The main thing in achieving that power position in the BH is actually using the nonplaying arm. So the BH stroke involves a pull from the lats. But somehow, if I pull with both lats (pulling both elbows to the sides) it makes the stroke significantly more powerful and concentrated. The other thing is not to drop the wrist at all or doing anything with it - the main power comes from supination (aided by the thumb press). In fact, with the wrist in neutral position, the bat is very slightly raised relative to the hand. All the energy sources (including the "deadlift" power from the lower body, the lats, supination and thumb press) must be precisely timed. There's no need to bend the wrist inward, or rotate the upper body, or bringing the elbow forward relative to the hand, all of these cost valuable time... The only backswing required is the slight hip hinge and bend in the knees, a relaxed forearm placed horizontally close to the body, behind the ball, and strangely enough, the left hand must be close to the ball too.
Edited by blahness - 07/31/2022 at 9:18am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 07/31/2022 at 4:44pm |
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I thougt of you a bit the last couple of days.
1. being blocked easily = I had no idea how easy MXP blocks. I know this sounds like nothing, but until you actually play it yourself, so just remember if you are getting blocked easily by someone, they are not amazing, there are rubbers that actually make blocking and with mild action on them sooooooooooooo easy to position the ball anywhere they want no matter how much effort you put in. I literally almost never missed getting the ball onto the table if it contacts the rubber surface. It's that insanely simple. (only requiring some basic angle adjustment, but no rocket science here.) The only time I can miss is when I actively loop and the catapult kicks in where I don't want it. 2. The high pressure moments always favour the more simple strokes. Going for a big swing has so many things that can wrong. It all depends how much winning means to you. If winning all it is then you'd probably develop a game around controlled equipment = easy to do everything with = not amazing at anything. If improving is your desire then suck it up and just keep killing every shot, eventually you will be rewarded for it. But don't change that when you come to the pressure moments = because then you are playing suddenly in a way that does not favor what you trained = probably lose. 3. Doubt Melbourne is any warmer than Brisbane. Have you considered the weather? Put your bat under your arm before you play and try to bring it up to body temperature. Remember rubber needs to be warm to be elastic/flexible. Also moisture is a pain...
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blahness
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Posted: 07/31/2022 at 6:48pm |
1. So far, I haven't encountered many ppl who can block my FH loop reliably (even those who are above my level) when I get a good swing at it (aside from that rally player who is an anomaly - but even he knows to never serve long to my FH - only to my BH which is not that strong). Also I used to play a more tricky passive game which had good results too against certain players, but tbh that doesn't consume many calories which would defeat my ultimate goal of playing table tennis (as a replacement for aerobic exercise) 2. Tbh I don't usually miss that many FH sitters like that (they were literally high balls which I missed which ultimately cost me too many points in the deciding sets). I had no choice but to put those away tbh, I've learnt a long time ago that if I pushed those back it'll be high too and be smashed. 3. Yes, most likely it could be the weather, it's been quite cold and wet these days - I didn't consider that tbh. I'll try those tips!
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
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Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Posted: 07/31/2022 at 9:51pm |
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After reflecting on the shots I missed on the FH, it's almost all opportunity balls. Strangely enough, I didn't even miss that many loops on normal low balls, serves drifting long, etc... Wtf i'm becoming just like Hao Shuai now....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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bozbrisvegas
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Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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Posted: 07/31/2022 at 9:58pm |
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IS he that dood who lost to Michael Maze long time ago to lobs?
EDIT The sheer joy of higher balls to my backhand with MXP cannot be explained... This is why I am still searching for a non-tacky fh even though my tacky gives me so many other easy points. Edited by bozbrisvegas - 07/31/2022 at 10:01pm |
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blahness
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Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Posted: 07/31/2022 at 11:03pm |
Yeah that's the guy lol... Anyway imma gonna search for some new setup now
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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bozbrisvegas wrote: