Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - serving off back of hand
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

serving off back of hand

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: serving off back of hand
    Posted: 09/23/2014 at 9:37pm
I have a pretty nasty dead ball serve off the back of my hand. I'd use it more but I feel self conscience. I know it's not illegal, but do you think it's immoral? Would you think less of me if I used it against you in a match?
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
mjamja View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 05/30/2009
Status: Online
Points: 2246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:04pm
Cole,

If you served that against me I would come around the table and try to throttle you.  Of course that was how I responded to all your good serves against me in the clinic :).

Seriously, if you think that is the best way for you to win a point in a certain situation then hit it.  I have that serve also, but do not practice it enough to feel confident in important situations.  For me it is so much easier to hit a dead ball with a toss and stroke that I use for a variety of spin variations and thus practice often than to try to change to a special serve that I do not practice as much.  

Now if you can figure out how to serve off the knuckle so that one serve goes wide left and the next one goes wide right with the same motion, then that would be something worth putting in the extra practice time.

Mark

 
Back to Top
mts388 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 03/21/2014
Location: Sonora CA
Status: Offline
Points: 1922
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:06pm
I'm fine with a serve off the hand.  If someone perfected an edge serve, I'd be fine with that also.
Back to Top
jfolsen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 03/15/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 699
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:10pm
A friend of mine had a serve where he used the end of the handle. Perfectly legal. He stopped using it, wasn't worth the arguing and ill will.

One more, I personally pulled this off at a US Open many years ago. In a doubles match the other team won the toss and elected to serve. On the very first serve I lined up to receive backhand. The server sees this and served long underspin. I step out of the way and my partner rips a forehand winner. We had never officially declared who the receiver was, they had just presumed. A 5 minute argument ensued. Never used that again, too much gamesmanship for me.

So in answer to your question, no it's probably not worth it for the bad karma.

jfolsen


Edit for spelling.


Edited by jfolsen - 09/23/2014 at 10:12pm
Back to Top
BH-Man View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4639
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:21pm
Smoke 'em if you got 'em, but watch out for the payback.
 
Myself, I would love a serve like that to my short BH.
Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 823
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I have a pretty nasty dead ball serve off the back of my hand. I'd use it more but I feel self conscience. I know it's not illegal, but do you think it's immoral? Would you think less of me if I used it against you in a match?

I have that serve, and have used it twice in tournaments, both times against weaker players. Both times my opponent caught the ball and tried to claim the point. Both times I rolled my eyes and agreed to a let. Both times I should have won the point. (There was no umpire.) I also tried it in practice matches against Crystal Wang and Derek Nie (2350 12- and 13-year-olds), and both unhesitatingly backhand banana flipped winners, then looked at me like I was crazy.
-Larry Hodges
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
DreiZ View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/01/2009
Location: New York, US
Status: Offline
Points: 2467
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:27pm
boooo!

no illegal serves!

~~~-this is your conscience speaking-~~~
Samsonov Force Pro BE AN 82g | 2x Aurus Prime 2.1
Rapid Carbon Light AN 72g | 2x Aurus Prime 2.1
FS Feedback
Back to Top
ZingyDNA View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2372
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I have a pretty nasty dead ball serve off the back of my hand. I'd use it more but I feel self conscience. I know it's not illegal, but do you think it's immoral? Would you think less of me if I used it against you in a match?


I don't see how a serve off the back of hand can be nasty.. Off the finger may be nastier LOL
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 11:43pm
you might be surprised.  My hand is coming forward pretty fast and you'd be expecting something with depth.  Instead it drops over dead and low. Most of the time it catches the opponent off guard...once.
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
jrscatman View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/19/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 4650
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 12:37am
Yes, you're right - it's legal but not ethical. 
If it was used against me, I would think a few choice words about you.
But will be ready for the next one. Unless you get me with it on match point. 
Then I would be kicking myself!
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1
BH: Palio CK531A OX
Back to Top
gekogark1212 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 05/06/2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1097
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gekogark1212 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 5:14am
I know a guy who'd serve with the edge of his racket in tight situations.
Everyone has their own secret weapon.

Serving off your hand is not the worst I've seen. People that train to serve short to the forehand edge and consistently are far more disgusting.
(\__/)
(='.'=) But there's no sense crying over every mistake,
(")_(") You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 12:00pm

I've only ever used it on match point, and not during a sanctioned event.

W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
tom View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 11/18/2013
Location: canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2039
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 12:53pm
thank God I don't play in sanctioned competition, I'd hate to see all these unethical behavior 
Back to Top
vanjr View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 08/19/2004
Location: Corpus Christi
Status: Offline
Points: 1086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 1:14pm
If it is not illegal (and currently it is not) then it is not immoral or unethical.

Love the story  by jfolsen about the doubles receive of serve. If I was your opponent I would have clapped for you!
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13202
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

If it is not illegal (and currently it is not) then it is not immoral or unethical.



+1.  If you are not responsible for making the rules, you are not guilty of illegal or unethical behavior for playing within them.  I am not able to serve off my hand at will, but if I could I wouldn't rule it out -- except that the people I play with mostly would not be fooled more than once.  I believe the rule that the hand is part of the racket has been around a really long time. ITTF made one thing I was really good at doing (hiding serves) illegal, probably because a lot of people were good at it and some people who had problems returning serve felt victimized (a trend that continues).  If many people could do this hand serve and actually get a benefit from it, I am sure ITTF would act.  
Back to Top
debraj View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/04/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debraj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 3:19pm
It may be immoral.

"Bible: Proverbs 10:9
Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out."

I would suggest you first tell your opponent about the spin, and then do the serve. That would be safe.
729-F1||Rhyzm-P(FH)|| Rasant Grip orRhyzm-P max(BH)
vid1
Vid 2
Back to Top
mhnh007 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/17/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 2829
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 3:49pm
This get me thinking... What about after pushing your opponent back with a long BH loop, then go for a smack on the return, but intentionally hit it with the back of the hand instead Smile.  Oh man! I think it's rather easy to do, and can be deadly.
Back to Top
tommyzai View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar
Senior Animator

Joined: 02/17/2007
Location: Prescott AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8940
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 3:53pm
I serve off the back of my hand once per match at the most. More than that I am feel two things:

1. A bit unethical.
2. Embarrassed.

But once per match, I feel pretty good. ;-).
For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

This get me thinking... What about after pushing your opponent back with a long BH loop, then go for a smack on the return, but intentionally hit it with the back of the hand instead Smile.  Oh man! I think it's rather easy to do, and can be deadly.


I've tried that and it's very hard.  The back of hand serve is pretty easy.

One thing I've thought of, if I was receiving, is claiming that the ball was wet from sweat on the hand.
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
tommyzai View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar
Senior Animator

Joined: 02/17/2007
Location: Prescott AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8940
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 5:44pm
I'm not sure about the ruling, but are player allowed to "intentionally" use the back of their hand?
For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 5:53pm
I can't find anything about intent in the rules.  I did have a player tell me it wasn't a legal serve because I did it intentionally.  Perhaps he was implying the sportsmanship clause?  The same kind of rule that keeps you from distracting and opponent?
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
tommyzai View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar
Senior Animator

Joined: 02/17/2007
Location: Prescott AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8940
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I can't find anything about intent in the rules.  I did have a player tell me it wasn't a legal serve because I did it intentionally.  Perhaps he was implying the sportsmanship clause?  The same kind of rule that keeps you from distracting and opponent? 

Who can say for sure if it's "intentional?" Regardless, it's best to disguise the back of hand serve and all other serves. A hand serve here and there is still more sportsmanlike than players who quick-serve, never toss more than an inch, and wear bright orange shirts while using an orange ball.


Edited by tommyzai - 09/24/2014 at 6:15pm
For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13202
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 6:18pm
I think that even the ITTF does not think umpires should read minds.
Back to Top
debraj View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/04/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debraj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 7:00pm
to disguise better... you can even hold the racket with all four fingers on BH rubber. :)
729-F1||Rhyzm-P(FH)|| Rasant Grip orRhyzm-P max(BH)
vid1
Vid 2
Back to Top
JacekGM View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/17/2013
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2411
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 7:57pm
So, why would the umpires punish for serves performed by tossing from not-so-perfectly flat palm, or not-so-perfectly vertically, while they cannot punish for hitting with the back of the hand?
Will the next step be "back of hand coated with pimpled latex layer" to create a deception factor of 10?
Where am I?
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2014 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I can't find anything about intent in the rules.  I did have a player tell me it wasn't a legal serve because I did it intentionally.  Perhaps he was implying the sportsmanship clause?  The same kind of rule that keeps you from distracting and opponent? 

Who can say for sure if it's "intentional?" Regardless, it's best to disguise the back of hand serve and all other serves. A hand serve here and there is still more sportsmanlike than players who quick-serve, never toss more than an inch, and wear bright orange shirts while using an orange ball.


Well, this guy had an argument.  Given that I was arguing the rules and philosophies of the legality of the serve, I was clearly admitting that I did it on purpose.  And in fact, I always admit to doing it on purpose.

In this case it was on match point in a friendly match against an 1850 player.  I ended up agreeing to reserve and play out the match.  He ended up winning the match but my heart was out of it.  In my mind I had already won.

But in theory yes, intent would be hard to prove, especially if you only did it one time.


Edited by cole_ely - 09/24/2014 at 10:16pm
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
About MyTableTennis.NET | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2019 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.