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Shoulder pain when FH looping underspin

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    Posted: 10/30/2015 at 11:34pm
Hi everyone,

Whenever I loop underspin on my forehand side, I loop it by contacting the ball later and following through a bit higher than my normal FH loop. This will get the ball on the table, but it really messes up my shoulder - especially my rotator cuff.

To describe my stroke, I usually let the ball get more off-center to my left (I'm a lefty), and get low, stroking upwards to around the 1 o'clock position.

Normally against top spin, I hit the ball in front of my body, when the ball is basically equidistant from both feet (as if forming an isosceles triangle between the ball and my feet) and striking through the ball to around the 2 o'clock position.

My stance when performing the FH loop is standard for a lefty, with my left leg behind my right leg in relation to the table.

I would really appreciate it if someone could help me fix my bio-mechanics so that I can develop a sustainable FH against backspin that can develop into a powerful stroke that does not harm my body unlike my current stroke.

Thank you,

-edit-
Any stretches for recovery or exercises to address the pain would also be appreciated.


Edited by Danzors - 10/31/2015 at 12:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argothman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 12:25am
You are driving your shoulder into the loop. This is a major problem and you need to break this habit. Your shoulders should move with your waist and torso. You most likely need to bend your arm more when you loop, and you turn your waist back more. When you extend your waist and arm, make sure your shoulders stay stably between them, and don't try to muscle or flex your shoulder into the ball. Shoulder movement should be minimal, your body and arm are doing the moving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 3:38am
I've seen a number of players who try to impart the upward motion in lifting the ball with their shoulder.  That is, they rotate back and drive forward wit their hips, but the upward component of their stroke comes from rotating their arm at the shoulder. Could this be what you're doing?  

Most of the lift should come from your legs.  You can also use a forearm snap (salute), but the main power is from pushing up with your legs.  If you're tall like me, this is challenging because you have to get really low first and then push upwards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 12:13pm
Main problem usually is not perfect position of your body when you do the loop. For that you will need to make sure your feet work fast and manage to move you where you should be. And of course, the upper body etc - what the guys have recommended above.

All that means that you need to be in a really good physical shape and learn the proper footwork. Which, alas, is not always possible for us veterans.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danzors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 1:26pm
Thank you all for your feedback - I think Argothman has a great point and the more I shadow-play, the more I realize that my shoulder plays too large a role in my FH motion.

I'm not that tall and I can feel the pain even when I am repeating the motion at home at game speed, but I think that performing the upward motion mainly from the legs and being in correct position are still great points. Another thing I'll be looking at is increasing my hand speed when I noticed that my elbow-snap is not as quick as I originally thought.

Looking up "tennis shoulder" as a google term showed me a good rotator cuff stretch along with some stability exercises such as the lying external rotation and bent-over rows so hopefully anyone out there experiencing the same thing can work on strengthening their external rotator cuff along with the tips shown here.

I'll be playing later today and will post in the future on any progress made in fixing my problem.

If anyone else has more insights to share, I would still be very open to reading it.




Edited by Danzors - 10/31/2015 at 1:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by Danzors Danzors wrote:

Thank you all for your feedback - I think Argothman has a great point and the more I shadow-play, the more I realize that my shoulder plays too large a role in my FH motion.


Well, if you are playing in a European fashion with non-tacky smooth rubber then shoulder is indeed supposed to be more involved (compared to Chinese style) in a standard top spin motion and in your style altogether. On average, of course...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argothman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 2:55pm
I am not, but I am a university student, and I always like to systematically analyze the things I do. I'm really into table tennis, so I do a lot of thinking about it when I'm away from the table.

I too am trying to figure out the optimal body mechanics for the forehand loop - in my play I've noticed there are different ways of generating power and transffering it into the racquet, I'm trying to figure out the optimal way that the pros use.


Edited by Argothman - 10/31/2015 at 2:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 4:17pm
I would suggest a sports physio therapist might be very helpful in determining what movement might be causing the issue. 
Here is link for match Primorac vs Wang Xi (chopper) - I like Primorac's mechanics very simple. Perhaps you can study his mechanics and see if there something that might help you.  Good luck


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 5:48pm
Danzors,

When you say that you contact the ball "later" when looping backspin, do you mean that you contact the ball heavily on the descent phase of the balls trajectory, or do you mean you contact the ball deeper in the strike zone? If you watch this video of Samsonov and Apolonia looking backspin (click topspin, vorhand, auf unterschnitt), you'll see that although they are contacting the ball on the descent, they are still hitting the ball in front of their bodies, and not so deep in the hitting zone. 



Edit: After rereading your post, it sounds like you might be hitting the ball too deep in the hitting zone. I used to hurt my back when I swung like this, since my loop is more hip centered than shoulder centered. Try to watch Samsonov and Apolonia and compare their contact point to yours.



Edited by Ringer84 - 10/31/2015 at 5:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danzors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 9:14pm
Although I've been playing for a few years now, being 1200 USATT rating, I couldn't say whether I have more of a EU or CN forehand stroke. What I did notice today were a few things:

1. Not having enough hip/torso rotation, would cause my follow through to drag my shoulder across my body.
2. Reaching too far on the FH or playing stiff strokes near my body would cause my shoulder to extend or tense too much. This would be due to trying to hit the ball when out of position.

These things, among others, lead to a very painful rotator cuff.

As far as attacking underspin, Ringer84, like you said, I would let the ball drift more off-center (towards my hitting hand) in the strike zone. However, I don't allow the ball to be closer to my body, just more off-center from where I would normally hit it. Regardless, thank you so much for the link! I really appreciate the multiple camera angles and how smooth the videos loop into each other.

If we take a look at the Primorac video linked above, we can see that Zoran strikes the ball before it would almost be above his right knee. I think this is the correct area to strike an underspin ball and what I tried to articulate in my original post, but please post if anyone disagrees with where the ball should be struck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 9:39pm
Is it possible for you to post a video of your stroke?  That makes it much easier to see what you are doing or trying to do and correct it.

My guess is that you are looping mostly with your arm to get power.  when looping backspin in general, you are supposed to end the stroke on the same side of your body as your racket hand.  I have never seen any with a high level loop consistently finish a backspin looping stroke across the body.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 9:55pm
Two things. Pay close attention if you like.

1. VERY Likely your Bio-Mechanics are not efficient. Fix that after you heal up.

2. VERY Likely you have a grade 1 tear. AND if you keep this up, you will likely get a grade two or completely tear it off to make the trifecta of a GRADE THREE tear.

A grade 2 tear is pretty serious stuff and this gets some people to a surgeon. (although if you address it effectively, you can avoid surgery to fix it) Grade 3 is surgery or you be maimed for life there.

Take it from BH-Man, who tore hiz rotator cuf nearly smooth off shoveling snow, getting cars un stuck from high center shoveling extended repeatedly, and pulling engine cords in -30F weather. and pushing cars out of drifts. Took me 2 months to stop re-injuring it every time I put on a shirt or put on pants.

What REALLY helped me was one of those FAR INFARED HEAT devices specialized for your shoulder. They send heat deep into tissue  and muscle. Tendons take forever to heal, since they do not get much blood flow at all. This increses blood flow and healing power to the injury as the body can do wonderful things to heal if we allow it. I did a bunch of dynamic stretching and strengthening exercises after it stopped killing me putting on pants first with only arm as resistance, then 1, then 2 then 5 lb weights. real important to use common sense and progression.

You should get going on healing your injury while it is much easier to so so NOW. A grade 1 tear can be fixed anywhere from a week or two to a month or two. Fix it now while it is much easier. It takes over a year to fully get it back after a grade 2 and sometimes you never get 100 percent from a grade two. Mine had only a few threads holding it together, I injured it late Jan and it got good enough in May to CAREFULLY start BH loop strokes without too much explosion. At the 6 month time frame, it was 60-70% healed and felt pretty good... enough to do matches without worrying too much, just was careful not to extend with power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 10:18pm
BH-Man - do you do any specific warm up and cool down routines for your shoulder?
I second your suggestion to let the injury heal before trying to fix the stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danzors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 10:39pm
BH-Man, I completely agree that my bio-mechanics are off. If you could mention certain exercises that can be done aside from the ones I mentioned above, I'd appreciate it as it looks like you've gone through this yourself. Unfortunately, I can't justify spending money on a far infrared heating pad for myself, but I'll put it on the wish-list for the holiday season Wink. In the interim, I did take this week off after aggravating my shoulder (like you alluded to, this has been a nagging injury for years) and utilize Penetrex to aid in recovery.

Nextlevel, sure! I can post a clip hopefully some time next week to examine today's gameplay against backspin once I get my USB back from my friend who records using his GoPro. I agree that visualizing it would be the most useful tool in examining what exactly is happening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2015 at 10:57pm
If you stabilize your elbow as described in this Brett Clark video you should put very little strain on your shoulder: 

Edited by alphapong - 10/31/2015 at 11:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danzors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2015 at 12:27am
Hi Alpha, actually, it seems that the problem comes specifically on the FH, where even in Brett's video, we are utilizing more "upper arm" (as he calls it) to generate more power. On all my strokes, I can, and have played while cradling a tennis ball between my upper arm and body (the area underneath my armpit), which I've found as a great demonstration in keeping the elbow stable. I don't believe you can successfully generate the pace I'm looking for in my FH without using the upper arm in this case.

I'll try to post a video as soon as possible which should shed the most direct light to the flaws in my stroke. Perhaps your point will be more valid than I'm thinking on once we view the tape!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2015 at 1:17am
Originally posted by Danzors Danzors wrote:

Hi Alpha, actually, it seems that the problem comes specifically on the FH, where even in Brett's video, we are utilizing more "upper arm" (as he calls it) to generate more power. On all my strokes, I can, and have played while cradling a tennis ball between my upper arm and body (the area underneath my armpit), which I've found as a great demonstration in keeping the elbow stable. I don't believe you can successfully generate the pace I'm looking for in my FH without using the upper arm in this case.

I'll try to post a video as soon as possible which should shed the most direct light to the flaws in my stroke. Perhaps your point will be more valid than I'm thinking on once we view the tape!
 
 
I think I know what stroke you're using, it's more of a Ma Lin/Zhang Jike stroke where one can get huge amounts of power from the shoulder moving forwards during the stroke without much backswing. The elbow actually moves forwards during the stroke. However, bear in mind that even as you gain power, by using this stroke regularly you become much more prone to injury. In fact, Zhang Jike is now having serious shoulder issues too from overusing his shoulder during his FH loops too.
 
I think you should look into changing your stroke a bit to the WLQ/Fang Bo model, with an emphasis on the legs and more waist rotation on the FH stroke, although you lose a bit with the increased recovery time.
 
In the meanwhile you can try the rehab motions that I saw in a ZJK video. He's now doing X motion moves for strength training. Either that or start building some serious muscle in your shoulder blades by doing lots of shoulder pressing, pull ups and rows. Good luck to your efforts!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danzors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 6:52pm
Hi guys, so as promised, here is a video from last week's practice. I don't know how to embed youtube unfortunately, so here is the link!


-edit- sorry, grey shirt is me.


Edited by Danzors - 11/08/2015 at 7:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 7:29pm
Which player is you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 7:45pm
you lack the proper torso/body rotation when looping. when you loop the ball, you seem to use more of your arms that is why you are having pain in your shoulders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:02pm
To second what Yogi said, you're not using a proper body rotation.  The entire body needs to rotate into the motion, so that the shoulder only has a small role to play.  When you just use an arm-only swing, like in this video, then your consistency goes way down and you develop shoulder pain.  The consistency goes down both because you can't generate the snap (acceleration) needed and because it becomes really hard to time your stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:15pm
WHat's interesting to me is that he has a really nice backswing on many of his loops.  He turns his shoulders properly, loads his left foot, gets nice and side on to the table, etc.  It's on the forward part of the swing where everything goes haywire.

Edited by Ringer84 - 11/08/2015 at 8:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:24pm
While I haven't seen the video, please propose a solution people. Diagnosis just repeats the problem to a patient. What's the treatment process?

Edited by NextLevel - 11/08/2015 at 8:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

While I haven't seen the video, please propose a solution people. Diagnosis just repeats the problem to a patient. What's the treatment process?

Fair comment. I'm just not confident enough in my coaching abilities to guide him through this through words over the Internet.

My opinion is that he needs some work in a swivel chair, in order to properly learn how to transfer his lower body into the ball and relax his shoulder and upper arm.


And also to read this thread started by blahness.




Edited by Ringer84 - 11/08/2015 at 8:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CroNone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:57pm
What I can see here is that the stroke is not starting lower and ending higher. Have a go at starting your stroke low, bending your knees down, lowering the bat as low as you can and finishing the stroke with the bat above your left eyebrow. Imagine that your are trying to brush the ball up to the ceiling above you, not forward to the other side of the table. 

Don't worry about how high your shot goes, just try to sweep it upwards and brush it with a fine contact. 
Once you can get it over the net, then you can start adjusting how upwards your stroke is.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danzors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 9:03pm
.

Edited by Danzors - 11/08/2015 at 9:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danzors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 9:03pm
Misunderstood a post :)

Edited by Danzors - 11/08/2015 at 9:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 10:26pm
I take back what I just said, you need to work on your FH stroke seriously if you want to progress. Your feet seem too planted and you're not really transferring the power from your torso/lower body into the shot. Actually you seem to be very hesitant on applying power.
 
Show us a simple FH looping - FH block drill, preferably 1 filmed from the side and another 1 filmed from the back. That would allow a much more comprehensive diagnosis of your stroke and how to fix it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 11:10pm
Looking at that video, I agree with blahness and would need to see his basic loop first.  

I honestly didn't think he had a loop at first.  Then I watched the whole video and I see that he has a lot of misconceptions about looping.  At around 2:50 and on the last stroke in the video around 3:20, he shows that even when he uses his body somewhat correctly, he does not know how to use his arm.  When looping backspin, you do not finish across your body.  In general, this is true for looping, but especially critical for backspin.

That said, danzor, I praise you for exposing your stroke to scrutiny.  It's not easy, but if you want to get better, it can be rewarding.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/08/2015 at 11:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danzors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2015 at 11:53pm
Hey guys, thank you all for taking the time to watch the video! I'd say the biggest takeaway from this so far is that my FH still has a ways to go and can especially agree that I'm very hesitant to apply power. Partly because I don't want to be a bad training partner and just blast balls off the table, but I suppose I've fallen into a bad habit.

I think I can actually put together footage from my other practices for the back view on FH loops and FH countering. Will try to get some side view by next week.

Thanks again!
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