Sidespon-topspin against backspin?

It is possible to do topsidespin against backspin, but it is maybe harder than regular topspin. Waldner and Kong Linghui did it a lot against choppers. Why didn't the girl just push back and block if they attacked. 

Edited by kenneyy88 - 06/12/2013 at 7:29pm

if I win a match by pushing back and blocking i consider that I lost it anyway. It is OK to do it when you are in trouble in the middle of a point but to play a match with that strategy in mind is no way to teach a youngster.

I wouldn't change a thing. The trouble with so many young female players these days is that they never learn to loop properly. Because they lack strength when they are young, coaches get them to do these awful half-flat half-topspin 'drives' (they are more like flicks IMO) in order to compensate. These shots are far less sound than a proper loop due to the lack of spin/dip and the relatively flat trajectory. If this girl can already loop with a lot of topspin then that is a great thing and you should build on that. Eventually it will become a strong component in her game and it will be something that many of her opponents wont have. In the short term just try to get her to loop as deep as possible. If her loops land deep they should be fairly safe.

Edited by DDreamer - 06/12/2013 at 8:21pm

assiduous wrote: if I win a match by pushing back and blocking i consider that I lost it anyway. It is OK to do it when you are in trouble in the middle of a point but to play a match with that strategy in mind is no way to teach a youngster. I would rather tell her that's it's ok to lose that match, and just try to vary the placement of the loop. Pick a side that is weaker, pick depth. If she is waiting on the edge of the table waiting to smash, make sure you loop deep, almost on white line. And yes, some sidespin when the ball bounces high enough. It is difficult to use sidespin on low balls. But the most important thing is to build her character. She should be fearless. If three loops got smacked in a row you loop again, somewhere else, and keep coming and show them you don't doubt yourself. Like ZJK. Screw the match. Nobody needs to win by chopping. My opinion. I know for some people winning iss the only thing that counts

if you read carefully, you'll notice its the opponent who is initiating backspin, so as her best topspin was being killed, I recommend she learns to open from opponents push with a hit or flip As for winning by sometimes playing shots that might be considered boring on this forum, sometimes its necessary I am afraid.
Do you find masudairas blocks boring?

3h, that is an option. it is always good to have options. Like RR said, a slow topspin (in this case I would bet lunch that those topspins she made were HIGH)likely NOT landing very deep or shallow is an easy target for a counterdrive winner. I would also wager lunch that that topspin was not extreme heavy spin either. Not many 11 yr old girls can make extreme heavy topspin from an underspin ball.

The answer lies with more variety in spin, height and placement. RR's suggestion of a fast loop with a lower height or better placement with less height and a tad more speed is the way to go for the opener.

I do not see women players here in Korea, except for only the over 2400 USATT crowd,like former elite TT athletes and current coaches, create heavy topspin. The coaches do not teach that to the female players. They train them as counter hitters and hitters. You push to FH, female player is trained to skull-drug crush the daylights outta that ball, period, they have no other thought of making a controlled topspin to setup the next shot. You push a little high to FH side, you know the next shot the female player will attempt. The more consistent ones will severely punish you. Amazingly, these players have trouble with a change of pace shot, like a very deep, heavy spin slow to medium speed topspin loop. They block it out a LOT. If it is high, they will try to hit through it and still often hit it out.

I have not seen many 11 yr old girls make a killer topspin slow or fast loop from an underspin. Many have learned to make a very fast drive against such a ball. That shot, if consistent, is a very difficult shot to cope with, so it is successful at both low and high levels.

Another option to develop is a BH loop. Those can be tough to see the direction, the player keeps position, plus it requires not so much backswing, so it is usually a quicker shot than a FH that requires more backswing.

Female players are usually very quick hitting and ultra consistent players and play very well within that framework. I say having more options is a good thing if one has a way to judge when to use and when to not use a certain shot. Simplicity can be a good thing as it reduces indecision. That is one positive thing about the classic Korean female OX LP BH and inverted FH power hitters. Those players have very little indecision. They know exactly what they want to do when they recognize a shot. Keeping it simple can have its good points as well.

roundrobin wrote: The truth is I have never seen a kid who was slow and powerful and later became FAST and powerful.

Edited by DDreamer - 06/12/2013 at 8:53pm

roundrobin wrote: Table tennis requires a player to develop a complete repertoire of techniques.  Looping is simply one of them.  Some kids failed to develop this technique properly but mastered all the others.  It's the same way that many Europeans have mastered this technique but neglected their table game and proper footwork.  You can't simply focus on one aspect of the game at the expense of others.  A balanced approach is required.

Edited by DDreamer - 06/12/2013 at 9:02pm

DDreamer wrote: Huh?? Who said anything about ignoring footwork and not having a balanced approach and not learning all of the necessary required skills??? We were talking about the best way to teach looping to youngsters. Your approach may be correct or mine may be. Whichever approach you adopt it is still possible to learn (or neglect) other aspects of the game. What you have written makes no sense.

You said the girl in question should keep doing what she's doing and I disagreed, because even though she could loop her shots are too slow.  Then you got into these "not able to loop properly later" and "take too much effort to unlearn" nonsense.

roundrobin wrote: DDreamer wrote: Huh?? Who said anything about ignoring footwork and not having a balanced approach and not learning all of the necessary required skills??? We were talking about the best way to teach looping to youngsters. Your approach may be correct or mine may be. Whichever approach you adopt it is still possible to learn (or neglect) other aspects of the game. What you have written makes no sense.   You said the girl in question should keep doing what she's doing and I disagreed, because even though she could loop her shots are too slow.  Then you got into these "not able to loop properly later" and "take too much effort to unlearn" nonsense.

DDreamer wrote: How did the talk of a balanced approach and footwork enter a conversation regarding looping? If you were off-topic then just acknowledge it and move on rather than brand someones approach 'nonsense'.

It's your belief that those who could flip well at a young age could not loop well later.  It has nothing to do with each other. 






Edited by roundrobin - 06/12/2013 at 9:48pm

Again: what you are saying regarding a balanced approach to playing is completely irrelevant to what we were talking about. Read back over what was written.

Haha Jacek, In the DMZ open not so long ago, I was down 0-2 in games and had to change my plying style. I was attacking, missing some and getting blocked or countered for outright points or pressure. I was looping at all speeds and I was still losing points. I likely needed better depth on some of my shots, but I was not likely to fix that then and there, maybe in the future when I get better some more.

I ended up relying on a tactic of pushing his serve deep to his crossover, occasionally to wide wide wide FH to keep him honest and allow him to initiate the attack. I ended up getting a lot of points on missed attacks or it was ME who ended up blocking points for winners or pressure that led to finishing shots! That was likely what he was doing to me the first two games.

I fought back to get to 2-2 and ahead 9-5 and was very unfortunate to have 2 net and outs at match point, a couple of opponent's attacks barely land. bad break, but I had my chances and of all things... PUSHING the ball as first option on serve receive gave me my chances against this opponent who would likely carry a USATT rating of 2050 to 2100.

Pushing is not an illegal shot and deserves some practice as you and RR have mentioned.

I was down and realized my macho all-out attack game was getting me nowhere fast. I tried to have faith and stay with it by focusing more on making a quality shot and vary it, hoping I would make higher percentage of shots, but I wasn't realizing what opponent was doing to me to make my shots lower percentage. I later adjusted, came back from a bad position, got the upper hand in the match and had more than my fair chances to win that match under pressure - the winner was to advance to crossovers. Being in a position to win with a fair chance using whatever tactics were effective to get to that position, what else could I ask for? (besides not having bad luck and/or some bad skill at 9-5)

BH-Man wrote: Haha Jacek, In the DMZ open not so long ago, I was down 0-2 in games and had to change my plying style. I was attacking, missing some and getting blocked or countered for outright points or pressure. I was looping at all speeds and I was still losing points. I likely needed better depth on some of my shots, but I was not likely to fix that then and there, maybe in the future when I get better some more. I ended up relying on a tactic of pushing his serve deep to his crossover, occasionally to wide wide wide FH to keep him honest and allow him to initiate the attack. I ended up getting a lot of points on missed attacks or it was ME who ended up blocking points for winners or pressure that led to finishing shots! That was likely what he was doing to me the first two games. I fought back to get to 2-2 and ahead 9-5 and was very unfortunate to have 2 net and outs at match point, a couple of opponent's attacks barely land. bad break, but I had my chances and of all things... PUSHING the ball as first option on serve receive gave me my chances against this opponent who would likely carry a USATT rating of 2050 to 2100. Pushing is not an illegal shot and deserves some practice as you and RR have mentioned. I was down and realized my macho all-out attack game was getting me nowhere fast. I tried to have faith and stay with it by focusing more on making a quality shot and vary it, hoping I would make higher percentage of shots, but I wasn't realizing what opponent was doing to me to make my shots lower percentage. I later adjusted, came back from a bad position, got the upper hand in the match and had more than my fair chances to win that match under pressure - the winner was to advance to crossovers. Being in a position to win with a fair chance using whatever tactics were effective to get to that position, what else could I ask for? (besides not having bad luck and/or some bad skill at 9-5)

Or poorman's topspins.

roundrobin wrote: 33333hhhhh wrote: Hi everyone, I went to a big competition with a 11 yo little girl from my club(ranked around 10 in our country, U13) and she lost to a girl who just overpowered her. Our opponent just used backspin to force our girl to play a topspin(loads of spin) and counterhit all of them. Our 11 yo girl is just too small yet, she is not able to create much more power, so I thought it would maybe an answer to play slow topspins loaded with SIDESPIN, so the opponent cant kill these shots, or at least makes it harder to kill it. She is able to do sidespin-topspin easily in rally, but i wondering if there is possible to do the same thing against backspin consistently. If its possible, how can teach it someone? Could you give me some advices? P.s: sorry for my english, I'm not so good in it, I hope you understood what I tried to explain/ask. Most young kids should be taught to counter as fast as possible instead of topspinning as hard as possible, precisely because of their lack of power.  The issue here is not topspin or sidespin, but SPEED.  It doesn't matter how loaded, deep or how much sidespin she can produce with her loops off the push, as long as it's slow it will get attacked.  She should learn to drive forward at a faster pace against underspin than loading it with spin.  In other words, concentrate her power on producing SPEED instead of spin.  Keep the attacks low and deep, and most importantly, quick.  The key is to concentrate on pushing her opponents away from their established position.  Aim for deep corners and elbow area with quick attacks.  She should also be able to push some of the pushes back very quickly to strategic areas to force a weak opening from her opponents.  It would be unwise to keep attacking deep and low pushes with weak loops where her opponents are waiting.  The key is to outsmart her opponents.  As to your original question, the answer is her sidespin loops against push will still carry more topspin than sidespin, and it won't be much of a problem for her opponents to attack them if these loops are slow.

Very good advice, not just for kids, but for all as well.  There are certain players, who live off slow spinny loop, they give you heavy back spin, and wait for you to open loop, then whamp, they smack it right back with interest.  Against these player, you need to play with speed, and placement rather than spin, deep ball is a must.  I also notice that these players don't like if you change up the tempo of the game, if you can mess around with their timing, they will start to miss, and it's game over for them.  As always, it's easy said than done LOL.