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Sizing up new opponents

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808ponger View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03/03/2014 at 1:13pm
Just curious to see what's everyone's process to uncover the weaknesses and strengths of players you have never met or seen before (without prior scouting)?
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skip3119 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by 808ponger 808ponger wrote:

Just curious to see what's everyone's process to uncover the weaknesses and strengths of players you have never met or seen before (without prior scouting)?
==========================

Did you mean "during the warm-up" before the real match starts?

Interesting to see how to size up an opponent that you have never played before, during the "warm-up" before the match.



Edited by skip3119 - 03/03/2014 at 1:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 1:22pm
Move the ball around and see if they move with their feet or just arm.....if they move just the arm ...easy (most cases people like pushblocker might not look good but tough to beat)...if they move the feet and hit with perfect balance....trouble!
If you are able to try varying the spins - some people are great against top spin, but have problems with underspin or chops - so that another thing to test for. 


Edited by jrscatman - 03/03/2014 at 1:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 2:49pm
I find it hard or next to impossible to analyze people with just the warm up.  The warm up doesn't give any indication of their serving ability or serve return ability.  Since every point begins with these two actions I find knowing how the opponent does in these areas to be critical.

Also, when warming up the ball is going at a slower pace and usually placed where one can hit it back.  During play everything is different.  TT is game of imposing your chaos on the opponent.  One can't get a sense of that during warm up.

Also, if I am playing with LPs I would probably warm up my BH using my inverted rubber.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 2:58pm
Good point - check the equipment. Will give a good idea about the style of play.

Edited by jrscatman - 03/03/2014 at 2:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 3:21pm
Watching someone during warm up will tell you very little.  All it tells you is if they can consistently keep the ball on the table when given an easy ball that doesn't require much movement.  People don't move in warm up how they will in a match and if you can help it, they won't be given such an easy ball during the match.
I've beaten a number of players that if you based their ability on their warm up, should have beaten me easily.  Practice and match play are VERY different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 3:23pm
Yeah if they are built like Arnold S and play with Timo Boll Tricarbon with 1QXD max....Oh s***
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 3:29pm
Besides the usual stuff that I suppose most people do, in the warm up, I check to see how they hold their blade -- their grip.  Is it more BH or FH oriented?  That tells me a bit about how close to the body their cross-over point is.  If it is BH oriented (like ZJK or KLH) crossover will be a bit farther outside than someone with a more FH grip (in tennis they would call it a western grip). Whether or not this matters depends on how well they move, but if they are not super quick, it is nice to have in mind the most likely best place to attack the "middle".  In other words, the "middle" is a different place for different players, and a lot depends on grip. 

 I also try to get a sense of how quick they are on their feet.  Also, does it look like they tend to keep more weight on one foot than another? Is there any indication they will have trouble moving to one side or another.  Especially, do they have trouble moving to their forehand side? 

Obviously, there is a lot that will remain mysterious until the actual game begins and for some time into the match.  Like several have said, warmup doesn't say a lot, but those are the two main things I look at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pondus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 3:46pm
I tend to simply look at how cool they dress. If they're wearing a CNT shirt I'm instantly shaking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by Pondus Pondus wrote:

I tend to simply look at how cool they dress. If they're wearing a CNT shirt I'm instantly shaking.









Edited by zeio - 03/03/2014 at 4:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puppy412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 5:15pm
this speaks "2600 and up homie" to me.....

http://celebritiesplayingtabletennis.com/lucianio_pavarotti2.jpg

us2746 when tired:
http://celebritiesplayingtabletennis.com/judah_friedlander1.jpg


Edited by puppy412 - 03/03/2014 at 5:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2014 at 8:15pm
Sometimes the little knockaround before the match can tell you somethings... sometimes it won't tell you much. That first game is where the rubber meets the road and you discover what is going on, your chance to try stuff out if you want to risk some points now to earn more later.
 
Even with prior scout of a certain player or during the warmup... if you go brain dead during a match and stay dog determined to a certain way to play, you are be that other dog's dinner at the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Olio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2014 at 4:06am
Check their grip (FH / BH / neutral)
Check their movement
Check their stance (balanced?)
Check their technique (very good / good / bad? Could they lift heavy underspin with a FH / BH topspin?)
Check their bat (pimps ? twiddle for the BH warm up?)
Check where they hit the ball (on the ball: behind / above)
Check what distance you should be at in a rally (not always, but can be a good indication)
While warming up (particularly when they topspin) vary the length of your blocks. How do they move forward / back?

Then it's the small matter of playing a game with serves, returns and with different shots landing in irregular places. Piece of cake!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2014 at 4:36am
Do you guys really try to use the warm up to get information?

I mean, seriously, I would be pissed if, during the warm up, my opponent started to hit to random areas to see how I move. The warm up should only be a simple fh-fh/bh-bh drill, thats it. If you havent seen them play before, then thats your problem to solve during the match, not the warm up.

Checking grip, stance and equipment is different, no problems with that, but play the ball where you are supposed to.

Ive only faced a few people who have tried to move the ball around, either to see how I move, or to get a taste of my anti before the match, but my solution to this is, I catch the ball and start over with the drill. If they ask polite, I do allow them to hit against the anti, Ive got nothing to hide with it, but it pisses me off when they are trying to catch me of guard during warm up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Olio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2014 at 4:51am
The warm up is, by definition, for you to increase your body temp, get used to the conditions (table, opponent), and concentrate. But you can also observe...

Most of the info you'll get from these FH/FH and BH/BH warmup.

How they move, well, even in those drills the ball isn't always in the same place, is it... I wasn't talking about sending the ball on the other wing by mistake of by design.

The few players who play everywhere for warm up are easier to analyse, and often play a completely different game when the match starts anyway. And they tend not to be the best players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2014 at 7:16am
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Do you guys really try to use the warm up to get information?

I mean, seriously, I would be pissed if, during the warm up, my opponent started to hit to random areas to see how I move. The warm up should only be a simple fh-fh/bh-bh drill, thats it. If you havent seen them play before, then thats your problem to solve during the match, not the warm up.

+1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2014 at 7:56am
Originally posted by Olio Olio wrote:

Could they lift heavy underspin with a FH / BH topspin?)
Do you do that during warm up? Shocked
Originally posted by Olio Olio wrote:

While warming up (particularly when they topspin) vary the length of your blocks. How do they move forward / back?
That's a drill my coach does with me, but warm-up? Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suds79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2014 at 8:20am
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Do you guys really try to use the warm up to get information?

I mean, seriously, I would be pissed if, during the warm up, my opponent started to hit to random areas to see how I move.


+1

Yeah against people who warm up by playing like it's a point, honestly I will not even give a half effort if the ball is not hit in my genergfal direction. Warm up is meant to be the simple countrer driving we're all familiar with. If a player wants to try to read into that thinking I don't move, perfect, ;)

I don't think you can really get much info from the player before the match starts. Should be scouting before the match.

Edited by suds79 - 03/04/2014 at 8:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Olio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2014 at 8:42am
.

Edited by Olio - 03/04/2014 at 8:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Olio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2014 at 8:42am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by Olio Olio wrote:

Could they lift heavy underspin with a FH / BH topspin?)
Do you do that during warm up? Shocked
Originally posted by Olio Olio wrote:

While warming up (particularly when they topspin) vary the length of your blocks. How do they move forward / back?
That's a drill my coach does with me, but warm-up? Shocked
You took that question out of context. it followed one about their technique.

It was meant to ask: with the technique they're showing, how likely is it they will be able to lift heavy underspin (i.e. to what extent do they use their shoulder / elbow / wrist? where in the bounce do they hit the ball?)

And yes, when you're warming up, vary the length of one block or two and see how they adapt...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2014 at 9:40am
You don't need to move someone around a lot to get some idea of how well they move and how balanced they are likely to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 808ponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2014 at 10:52am
The reason reason I ask this is in the context of playing a tournament where you dont know anyone.

I'd I imagine most players would keep their cards close to the chest during the warmup but now I see that you can t least start getting some info.

I've read somewhere CNT Coach LGL mention that you find strengths/weaknesses through attacking and seeing how well the opponent handles things. Any specific things you guys like to do and how long does it take to finally get a good read on the other player?

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