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    Posted: 02/16/2013 at 8:47pm
I think the straight arm loop is really quite a misnomer, I don't think anyone hits with a technically "straight" arm.

For me, there's an "optimum" angle of around 135-160 deg (between forearm and upper arm) which is the best to maintain control and power, and straightening the arm beyond that just results in lost power and control. 

What angle between the forearm and upper arm do you guys use at the point of contact?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2013 at 10:12pm
theres a big straight arm loop thread somewhere...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2013 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by vutiendat1337 vutiendat1337 wrote:

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Why?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reflecx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2013 at 11:48pm

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I think the straight arm loop is really quite a misnomer, I don't think anyone hits with a technically "straight" arm.

Here are some players who hit with straight arm.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 12:28am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I think the straight arm loop is really quite a misnomer, I don't think anyone hits with a technically "straight" arm.

For me, there's an "optimum" angle of around 135-160 deg (between forearm and upper arm) which is the best to maintain control and power, and straightening the arm beyond that just results in lost power and control. 

What angle between the forearm and upper arm do you guys use at the point of contact?



Actually, physics will tell you that a longer arc length (straighter arm) will generate more strength. But of course at the cost of control. But as the pictures posted, these guys can generate so much strength without losing control.

Although you are correct in that there is an optimum, some shots really just force you to reach out for the ball. With those chinese superstar's experience, they can generate so much power with those kinds of shots.

Ma Lin has many "straight arm" shots here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYTC3AvKcQI

Specifically at 0:24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3vXeR3EW1o

And a slow motion here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z6AyEm8G0s
^ but of course his follow through makes it bent afterwards, which compensates for the control

And the longest arc loop = more strength i was talking about at 0:58 is clearly demonstrated here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKnGJIR6TIc
^ amazing shot. simply amazing. I actually feel sorry for the opponent cause ma lin kept repeating it after. Lol.


Edited by davidwhang - 02/17/2013 at 12:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chu_bun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 12:47am
Everybody hits with straight arm when they have to reach for the ball which I believe is the case in these pictures.  See @ 1:09.  ML starts with a straight arm but bends the forearm long before the contact point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWo0r0Cz9DQ

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 1:19am
Some of the chinese straighten their arm for like a millisecond and then it is flexed right back. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 1:30am
Originally posted by reflecx reflecx wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I think the straight arm loop is really quite a misnomer, I don't think anyone hits with a technically "straight" arm.

Here are some players who hit with straight arm.



Firstly some of those pics actually reinforce my point, it's not 180 deg but about 160 to max 170 deg, you just selected camera angles that make it look straight. I'm not talking about the 90 deg bent arm looping that most European loopers prefer. The arm must have at least a small "V" shape. 

Another point is that these pictures are probably chosen at points where they're performing loop-kills and not loops during rallies (i.e. continuous looping)

I still maintain my point that extending your arm too straight (i.e. when u lose the "V" shape), will result in loss of power and control. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldenDragoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 1:50am
My team mates and me talk about this all the time. Its a no brainer that straighter arm equals more raquet speed which equals more potential for power AND spin. Its hard to pull of this stroke consistently but none of us could loop when we started and many of us are there so this is just an extenstion of that stroke. I am often forced to play wide shots on my FH side and they tend to be my most destructive shots because I am forced to use straight arm to reach the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote atv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 2:19am
The straight arm loop doesn't mean 180deg all the time, it only starts with it and then forearm should bend right before the contact point. It's all about adding angular velocity from three stages: upper arm, forearm and wrist, the add up of all three should reach max speed during contact and follow through. So before hitting the forearm will have to bend in, then the wrist gives the final push like a three-stage rocket. For penholders there is a fourth stage: fingers, but that is too advanced for mortals...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 2:26am
Care to expound on the fourth stage, atv?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote atv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 2:39am
Actually it's something Wujingping (Malin and Wanghao's coach) said, it's about how to make fine tune and placement with fingers at various shots. Some like good players play with arm, pros with wrist and elites with fingers. For FH loops he is specific that the power transferred to the ball comes from the acceleration of arm, wrist and fingers in uniformed order, especially wrist and fingers (I think that tip is for pros who want to make it to the top as most of us are still struggling at the arm part yet like in this thread). Wrist and fingers are also important for placement and, if dwell actually exists as debated in other threads, adding dwell time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 2:43am
Originally posted by atv atv wrote:

Actually it's something Wujingping (Malin and Wanghao's coach) said, it's about how to make fine tune and placement with fingers at various shots. Some like good players play with arm, pros with wrist and elites with fingers. For FH loops he is specific that the power transferred to the ball comes from the acceleration of arm, wrist and fingers in uniformed order, especially wrist and fingers (I think that tip is for pros who want to make it to the top as most of us are still struggling at the arm part yet like in this thread). Wrist and fingers are also important for placement and, if dwell actually exists as debated in other threads, adding dwell time.


I guess I'm only until the wrist part then. Would be interesting to study the fingers part. Can't imaging having to focus on that when making loops. Lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldenDragoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 2:57am
I imagine it would be second nature with enough practice. I am dissapointed with my loop because while my foot work and body are there when possible I can't get my wrist involved instictivley. Its amazing the spin difference with this element but at the end of the day its just training and practice...

Might go get started on that now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adishorul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 2:59am
All the players shown in the pictures are chinese using sticky chinese rubbers for the forehand, it is logical to use straight arm to get the power, but for euro-jap rubbers this tehnique with straight arm simply don`t work.. it is necesary to bend the arm....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 3:04am
Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Originally posted by atv atv wrote:

Actually it's something Wujingping (Malin and Wanghao's coach) said, it's about how to make fine tune and placement with fingers at various shots. Some like good players play with arm, pros with wrist and elites with fingers. For FH loops he is specific that the power transferred to the ball comes from the acceleration of arm, wrist and fingers in uniformed order, especially wrist and fingers (I think that tip is for pros who want to make it to the top as most of us are still struggling at the arm part yet like in this thread). Wrist and fingers are also important for placement and, if dwell actually exists as debated in other threads, adding dwell time.


I guess I'm only until the wrist part then. Would be interesting to study the fingers part. Can't imaging having to focus on that when making loops. Lol

Fingers not that hard heh, just relax and give your bat a little bump with your middle finger (if you're penhold) or index finger (if you're shakehand) for FH. For BH use your thumb to bump instead...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 4:36am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Originally posted by atv atv wrote:

Actually it's something Wujingping (Malin and Wanghao's coach) said, it's about how to make fine tune and placement with fingers at various shots. Some like good players play with arm, pros with wrist and elites with fingers. For FH loops he is specific that the power transferred to the ball comes from the acceleration of arm, wrist and fingers in uniformed order, especially wrist and fingers (I think that tip is for pros who want to make it to the top as most of us are still struggling at the arm part yet like in this thread). Wrist and fingers are also important for placement and, if dwell actually exists as debated in other threads, adding dwell time.


I guess I'm only until the wrist part then. Would be interesting to study the fingers part. Can't imaging having to focus on that when making loops. Lol

Fingers not that hard heh, just relax and give your bat a little bump with your middle finger (if you're penhold) or index finger (if you're shakehand) for FH. For BH use your thumb to bump instead...


I think it's more complicateed than that...there's also manipulation of the thumb, index finger, middle finger, ring, and pinkie in the penhold. Each have their own different functions.

Check out v-griper's response here:
http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=57178
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 4:56am
My wrist is currently annoying me so I have it in a brace. So I am compensating with my fingers and I can see things I didn't notice before. I have big hands so my fingers have become a second wrist, so to speak.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 5:48am
Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Originally posted by atv atv wrote:

Actually it's something Wujingping (Malin and Wanghao's coach) said, it's about how to make fine tune and placement with fingers at various shots. Some like good players play with arm, pros with wrist and elites with fingers. For FH loops he is specific that the power transferred to the ball comes from the acceleration of arm, wrist and fingers in uniformed order, especially wrist and fingers (I think that tip is for pros who want to make it to the top as most of us are still struggling at the arm part yet like in this thread). Wrist and fingers are also important for placement and, if dwell actually exists as debated in other threads, adding dwell time.


I guess I'm only until the wrist part then. Would be interesting to study the fingers part. Can't imaging having to focus on that when making loops. Lol

Fingers not that hard heh, just relax and give your bat a little bump with your middle finger (if you're penhold) or index finger (if you're shakehand) for FH. For BH use your thumb to bump instead...


I think it's more complicateed than that...there's also manipulation of the thumb, index finger, middle finger, ring, and pinkie in the penhold. Each have their own different functions.

Check out v-griper's response here:
http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=57178

penhold grips are so complicated....Dead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 5:58am
Lol. Which brings reminds me of the question..is it really worth it to go for it instead of shakehand? :))


Edited by davidwhang - 02/17/2013 at 5:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 6:04am
Originally posted by adishorul adishorul wrote:

All the players shown in the pictures are chinese using sticky chinese rubbers for the forehand, it is logical to use straight arm to get the power, but for euro-jap rubbers this tehnique with straight arm simply don`t work.. it is necesary to bend the arm....

I have a pretty straight arm technique, and I can still use grippy rubbers equally well (I would say the performance in mid-range looping with grippy rubbers even exceed Chinese sticky rubbers), but unfortunately grippy rubbers suck in serving and short game which affects my game much more than looping... :( On BH it's another story though, coz we can use the new BH over-the-table loop to pretty much receive everything, there's no need for the "short game" there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 6:06am
Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Lol. Which brings reminds me of the question..is it really worth it to go for it instead of shakehand? :))

I think penhold looks cool, stylish and unorthodox, which is a major + factor for me, if I could have started my TT training all over again, I would have gone for penhold instead of shakehand. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 6:35am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Lol. Which brings reminds me of the question..is it really worth it to go for it instead of shakehand? :))

I think penhold looks cool, stylish and unorthodox, which is a major + factor for me, if I could have started my TT training all over again, I would have gone for penhold instead of shakehand. 


Why not try it invest a little time on it? For me, aside from the reasons you stated..I don't know..heavy looping topspin with it just feels more natural compared to shakehand..feels like it's easier to pull the racket up with penhold (probably because of the angle of the wrist)...plus there's a tendency to get lazy on shakehand specially if you're using euro/jap. Lol.


Edited by davidwhang - 02/17/2013 at 6:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 7:10am
Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Lol. Which brings reminds me of the question..is it really worth it to go for it instead of shakehand? :))

I think penhold looks cool, stylish and unorthodox, which is a major + factor for me, if I could have started my TT training all over again, I would have gone for penhold instead of shakehand. 


Why not try it invest a little time on it? For me, aside from the reasons you stated..I don't know..heavy looping topspin with it just feels more natural compared to shakehand..feels like it's easier to pull the racket up with penhold (probably because of the angle of the wrist)...plus there's a tendency to get lazy on shakehand specially if you're using euro/jap. Lol.

In fact I can play penhold casually...it's just 3 levels below my shakehand play...
If you grew up on shakehand you would find the topspin on shakehand much easier than penhold heh...
Sadly it would take quite a few years to restart using penhold to get to the level I am at now, and there are many things that are so different between penhold and shakehand (esp the degree of pronation on the forearm on FHs), that just causes havoc when switching over. Also the BH "factor" is irreplaceable with penhold, I just get so much more speed, power and stability compared to RPB (which has a weakness in blocking IMO) and TPB. 

I use one of the slowest setups (you can see in my sig) for over 2-3 years of my development, so no chance for me developing a lazy game haha... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 7:24am
Originally posted by reflecx reflecx wrote:

 

Here are some players who hit with straight arm.


If you watch videos of ZJK and ML playing, they mostly look like this:






Edited by Anderni - 02/17/2013 at 7:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 7:28am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Lol. Which brings reminds me of the question..is it really worth it to go for it instead of shakehand? :))

I think penhold looks cool, stylish and unorthodox, which is a major + factor for me, if I could have started my TT training all over again, I would have gone for penhold instead of shakehand. 


Why not try it invest a little time on it? For me, aside from the reasons you stated..I don't know..heavy looping topspin with it just feels more natural compared to shakehand..feels like it's easier to pull the racket up with penhold (probably because of the angle of the wrist)...plus there's a tendency to get lazy on shakehand specially if you're using euro/jap. Lol.

In fact I can play penhold casually...it's just 3 levels below my shakehand play...
If you grew up on shakehand you would find the topspin on shakehand much easier than penhold heh...
Sadly it would take quite a few years to restart using penhold to get to the level I am at now, and there are many things that are so different between penhold and shakehand (esp the degree of pronation on the forearm on FHs), that just causes havoc when switching over. Also the BH "factor" is irreplaceable with penhold, I just get so much more speed, power and stability compared to RPB (which has a weakness in blocking IMO) and TPB. 

I use one of the slowest setups (you can see in my sig) for over 2-3 years of my development, so no chance for me developing a lazy game haha... 


I see I see. Ah yes, the backhand factor. Lol. I agree with the RPB block issues though. I'd rather use TPB for a simple BH block
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldenDragoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 7:44am
I don't see any real proof that Cpen is any better than SH. Lots of people comment on how this player has this or this player has that but in the real world its just a case of how good you are regardless of your grip. To be honest when I watch the top Cpen players I tend to see more blocking from the BH side than looping. It looks from my veiw that the SH players can open up with far more power more often on the BH wing. Still BH strenght is usually not the dominating factor these days....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 8:37am
No one any good loops with a straight arm. You can't generate as much power with the major muscle of the arm unused. Plus the arm is heavier and slower to swing when straight. Sure when stretching everyone hits it straight. The flat loop Zhang Jike finishes higher balls with is an exception because its against high balls only. There its effective as the chest works just fine by itself in that flatter plane

Edited by bluebucket - 02/17/2013 at 8:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 9:06am
Originally posted by Anderni Anderni wrote:

Originally posted by reflecx reflecx wrote:

 

Here are some players who hit with straight arm.


If you watch videos of ZJK and ML playing, they mostly look like this:





+1 that was what i was talking about, 135-160 deg is about the optimum, so that you still maintain the V-shape
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