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The great China vs Euro loop myth

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    Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:25pm
I just can't get away from this one, however much I think about it I just feel that the differences between the two perceived styles is so close, yet they are discussed in length on these forums as if they were chalk and cheese. There is also a massive overlap, some European players play with a 'Chinese style' and some Chinese play with a 'European style' yet time and time again we read post by members who are developing one or the other as if it were the difference between dark and light. We always end up with some kind of debate as to which one is superior, but there are advantages and disadvantages to both of the very slight variations. Anyone thought of going right down the middle?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin_2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:41pm
But the debates give us something to talk about. So go away with your common sense, it ruins the fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:46pm
You can not go down the middle. You can play it the european way if you are under time pressure and in the chinese way when the time allows it. Supposing you have got a rubber which allows both styles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:47pm
EDIT: Actually I think that with chinese rubbers, it is more able to do both styles of loops. 

Edited by kenneyy88 - 01/03/2011 at 6:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:55pm
I think you are missing the point guys. I am not really analyzing the differences between the two at the top of the game, more the choice players who are never gonna make that standard make, you get it all the time.... '' I'm developing a Chinese/Euro F/hand'' WHAT? what I'm saying is, just develop your own loop, taking in what is best for YOU!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2011 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

EDIT: Actually I think that with chinese rubbers, it is more able to do both styles of loops. 
 Oh goodness, I've been there before.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DDreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2011 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

EDIT: Actually I think that with chinese rubbers, it is more able to do both styles of loops. 
 Oh goodness, I've been there before.......
You have much to learn young APW...it is the equipment which plays the shot, not the player.Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2011 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by DDreamer DDreamer wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

EDIT: Actually I think that with chinese rubbers, it is more able to do both styles of loops. 
 Oh goodness, I've been there before.......
You have much to learn young APW...it is the equipment which plays the shot, not the player.Shocked
 Of course, how could I be so sillyWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2011 at 7:18pm
Of course everybody should develop his own loop. But there is no ideal forehand loop. And you have to follow some methodology. I have both a powerful loop and use my wrist well on forehand loops (but have problems with wrist and BH loops). There are players who play FH loop completely without wrist and still they play great loops.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krantz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2011 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Tinykin_2 Tinykin_2 wrote:

But the debates give us something to talk about. So go away with your common sense, it ruins the fun.

Yeah! We talk about it because its interesting!

My current approximation to the problem is that the "chinese way" requires from you to start your swing with a straight arm; what you do next depends on the situation and your particular style, but without the straight arm part - they say - you're doing it wrong. Europeans are perfectly happy with bent arm backswing - and forward swing too for that matter. Which method is "better" is open to debate (even more LOL), but if i would have to chose my mentor (thats something all developing players should strongly consider to do - and we all are developing players Tongue) then i would take a Chinese - they provide some reasoning to support their recommendations, while i've seen none after "bent arm" method ("there are good players using it" or "you can do it this way too" doesn’t count for me Confused).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sebas-aguirre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 12:36am
the myth is that there is a "chinese" type of loop and an "european" type of loop.
there is only one kind of loop.
the loop that throws rockets to destroy your opponent.
this kind of loop is achieved with different movements depending on the rubber you are using.
most chinese national players use rubbers like h2, h3 so their loops will be similar.
similar to any player who is using h2 or h3.
but players using thor's, apollo, whale II won't do that same loop because it won't work with those rubbers.
these mentioned rubbers share some characteristics with dhs rubbers so the stroke won't be "that" different.
on the other end you have a rubber like tenergy or hexer.
but I repeat, the stroke is not chinese or european, it is more based on the particular rubber you use.
what is my preference? at this point tuned h3 neo, but I've been through whale II, bryce, tenergy....
the problem with dhs rubbers is that you can only use them tuned, otherwise they are among the crappiest rubbers you'll find out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 1:01am

Other than some europeans keeping their arm bent all the time through the backstroke, which is something I've never seen a chinese player do, it's really more just their own loops anyway. The straight vs bent thing is just a generalization, but other than that there isn't much. I've heard so many different things from so many different people that I really think it's a bunch of bull. Because you see chinese players doing bent arm loops, and european players doing full arm kills, they break the generalization. There are different strokes for different situations.

At our level, the general idea of a loop stroke is all that really matters. It works. So whatever. Everyone just overanalyzes it a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 2:20am
The only thing you can control is the speed, attitude and direction of the paddle at the moment of contact.  It doesn't make ANY DIFFERENCE what happened before or after the ball leaves the paddle 2-4 milliseconds.  Convex, concave, straight arm or chicken wing, it makes no difference if you are standing on your head or just throwing the paddle and happen to hit the ball just right.  If the speed,attitude and direction of the paddle are the same at contact the result will be the same if the balls direction, speed and spin are the same.

What is all boils down to is the paddle imparts an impulse ( force times dwell time ) on the ball. This impulse has a magnitude and direction.  If the impulse is the same then the ball will respond respond in the same way given it has the same speed, direction, and spin.   All this talk about speed, throw and spin really boils down to the magnitude and direction of the impulse.  

TT is still subject to the laws of physics.  How is that for sucking the fun out of an argument?
In a moment of letting my brain run in neutral I got sucked in to that convex/concave argument many months back.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff(ATTC) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 2:26am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I think you are missing the point guys. I am not really analyzing the differences between the two at the top of the game, more the choice players who are never gonna make that standard make, you get it all the time.... '' I'm developing a Chinese/Euro F/hand'' WHAT? what I'm saying is, just develop your own loop, taking in what is best for YOU!
 
I agree.  I think it's better to use a loop that works for the individual rather than trying to go one way or another, or trying to copy a pro's stroke.  I find that too much time is spent trying to look a certain way rather than making sure that the mechanics of the stoke actually produce a good ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 2:41am
The matter at hand is analogous to loanword in linguistics.

The term loop we have come to know nowadays was in fact "invented" by the Japanese in the 60's along with the appearance of inverted rubber.

Hungarian was among the first to master it and Swedish merged it with traditional fast attack of the Chinese(referred to as 弧圈結合快攻/快攻結合弧圈 or looping(primary) combined with fast-attack(secondary) and vice versa) to pioneer a new era that saw them conquer the top spot.

The Chinese, facing an inevitable downfall, made some abrupt, hasty, and griveous attempts at producing penhold loopers at the great expense of rendering top pips hitters of the time as hitting partners.

It was not until Kong Linghui's return to his home country with him reborrowing the European two-wing shakehand looping style and his ultimate success at the '95 WTTC that saw the dawn of China's comeback in the arena.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 3:56am
The BENT ARM is not enough to distinguish between those 2 loops (euro - chinese). Kreanga, Schlager,Waldner  are not bending arms.
And even Liqin was bending his arm when was young.

Bending the arm maybe related with the height of the player and the longer segments of the body. A smaller player (Kreanga and the most of the chinese) can afford to use the whole arm without losing timing and recovery.

There is no difference between euro and chinese loop.


Edited by vali - 01/04/2011 at 3:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:03am
A loop is loop , I was using Neo3 in the weekend and I usualy use Rakza I didn't change my arm , I might have made a angle change but I didn't go all straight arm lol.
 This tread isn't about who invented it and what the pros do its about what we do and there are many members here who switch from chinese rubbers, to tuned chinese rubbers,to tensors, to tenergies to the latest new products and I doubt you change to a whole different approach to your loops we hit the ball because thats our style
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DDreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:28am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

A loop is loop , I was using Neo3 in the weekend and I usualy use Rakza I didn't change my arm , I might have made a angle change but I didn't go all straight arm lol.
 This tread isn't about who invented it and what the pros do its about what we do and there are many members here who switch from chinese rubbers, to tuned chinese rubbers,to tensors, to tenergies to the latest new products and I doubt you change to a whole different approach to your loops we hit the ball because thats our style
Well said Smackman. 

I also agree with Vali's general idea. In particular there is no one definitive European loop. Amongst the different types are the hideous chicken-wing loop of players like Boll and Maze (and even the non-euro Mizutani); then there is Schlagers; then Kreanga's; and then others are different again.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:34am
Yeap, Boll and Maze are strong northern , germanic ,  viking  players with enough power from the wrist to generate spin and speed.
They do not need to use the whole arm for the loop. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DDreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:48am
Originally posted by vali vali wrote:

Yeap, Boll and Maze are strong northern , germanic ,  viking  players with enough power from the wrist to generate spin and speed.
They do not need to use the whole arm for the loop. Big smile
Stop making excuses for them: their 'loops' are abominations. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaHobbit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:50am
Originally posted by vali vali wrote:

Yeap, Boll and Maze are strong northern , germanic ,  viking  players with enough power from the wrist to generate spin and speed.
They do not need to use the whole arm for the loop. Big smile


WROOOOOOONG!!

Boll is just fat so it is easy to produce topspin for him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 4:54am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

A loop is loop...


Define loop then.  It is my impression that this whole myth on loop takes root due to the general public's lack of understanding of and to an extent ignorance about its origin and development it has gone through.

What the pros do would ultimately be what the general public imitates and follows since they get the most exposure and coverage.  It is the same with every day commodities you and I are so familiar with that we tend to forget that some were once aerospace and/or military technology and classified top secrets(e.g. CCDs so commonly used in today's digital camera.)

This is partly where the ITTF(not just Adham) fails to comprehend, with all the new regulations and rule changes(some good, some bad, some outright ugly) ever since the millennium.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicefrog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 5:01am
How about this, most Chinese players use a very full swing and a elliptical shaped arm return (which is the only efficient way to return from a full swing). Most European players don't swing that far and return the arm almost down the same path it came. Of course during a game a lot of people use both types of loop depending on where you are on the court and where the ball is. If you grew up with a dead sponged Chinese rubber you will naturally use a more full swing than if you grew up with a relatively fast and efficient European/Japanese rubber. In the end all that matters is the speed you can get the blade to by the time it hits the ball and how fast you can return for another one so long as you have those two things sorted it doesn't matter how it looks

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 6:47am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

A loop is loop...


Define loop then.  It is my impression that this whole myth on loop takes root due to the general public's lack of understanding of and to an extent ignorance about its origin and development it has gone through.

Who are 'the general puplic'? The 'loop' originally referred to the tragectory of the ball as it was contacted at the back and brushed upwards. ALL loops had a contact point below the level of the table and the only purpose was to get a high return to set up a smash. Gradually more pace and an earlier contact point was achieved and so the loop drive was born. The comment abouit China struggling to produce a looper before Kong is wrong, Kuo was a p/hold looper and was world number 1 for a long period in the late 70's early 80's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vladovich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 6:59am
Originally posted by DaHobbit DaHobbit wrote:

Originally posted by vali vali wrote:

Yeap, Boll and Maze are strong northern , germanic ,  viking  players with enough power from the wrist to generate spin and speed.
They do not need to use the whole arm for the loop. Big smile


WROOOOOOONG!!

Boll is just fat so it is easy to produce topspin for him.

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhaa LOL

Or maybe he uses "fat plies"...

For others, if they missed it, topics from our vast knowledge database on this forum:

Debate on fat guys produce more spin:

Fat plies produce more spin:

LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 7:10am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Who are 'the general puplic'?

Generally anyone who do NOT find it prickling reading this thread.

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

The comment abouit China struggling to produce a looper before Kong is wrong, Kuo was a p/hold looper and was world number 1 for a long period in the late 70's early 80's.

I am afraid you are missing the point here.

I wrote "The Chinese[referring to pips hitter style at that time], facing an inevitable downfall, made some abrupt, hasty, and griveous attempts at producing penhold loopers at the great expense of rendering top pips hitters of the time as hitting partners."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 7:37am

'attempts' suggests they failed, Kuo was not a failure, he was the undisputed world number one for a number of years.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 7:57am
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+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DDreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 8:09am
I'm actually not clear what point zeio is 'attempting' to make. I'm also not sure when the top pips hitters were supposedly reduced to hitting partners. Pip hitters were a staple of the Chinese team from the very early days until at least 1989. There were frequently 2 and sometimes 3 pip-hitters in the team. Towards the end of the 80's they started to get beaten and so understandably new Chinese playing styles became more prominent. Even so, Liu GuoLiang still did ok. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2011 at 8:18am
I really don't like these discussions on the forum because there are too many "brilliant" amateurs looking at equipment when stroke technique is at question..... I wish there was a way to moderate a thread there any mention of equipment in a non-equipment thread would be removed.

This thread, as far as I understand, is a question of technique.

Here is my 2 cents regarding this topic ( yes unfortunately only 2 cents worth ).

Loop is loop - meaning its attacking the ball with spin. So what exactly is a difference in a loop stroke in many different world class levels and which one is better...

European loops are generally more focused on spin and taking the ball after the top of the bounce. The training in european level is not brought to the chinese level of robotic human automation of biomechanical movements. So the European players have a lot more freedom to have their own technique and style of the loop. Does that make any loop better or not? If you look at simply a loop in training - the answer is No! The only loop that is better in training is the one that is more consistent which depends on individual and their talents.

Now lets take a loop during the game. What most people see in a stroke and hence mark it as "chinese loop" is mostly the transition of the ready position to backswing to finishing position. Yes, this motion is a signature motion. Every single Chinese player has this worked out so well that they don't deviate from this motion by more than a centimeter. Its amazing. They are superb at this as they have been in a repeat cycles for years!!! Comparing this motion with European "freestyle" which is not strict, very personalized action built over the top of the players strength - hence looking ( and only looking ) like a technically weaker stroke.

Regarding power input ( if you think in terms of equipment, better to just not read this section because the power here is the coefficient of energy of the players stroke - without the paddle ). Chinese players are very honest with themselves and they recognize that they can never match the power of European players, who are physiologically larger and hence stronger. This does not mean that they have no power. They are strong and do have world class power capable of winning points outright, but in this game, strength is not the key. So the Chinese players aim and train to achieve speed superiority - taking the ball earlier off the bounce. Note that the technique of the strokes to take the ball earlier off the bounce is exactly the same as their "regular" loop technique. So, you see that Chinese players have developed technique that can be applied against wider range of incoming shots.... ( or do they??? There is an exception to the "wide range of shots", which I'll mention later ). In comparison, European players constantly seem to adapt their stroke to incoming shot. However, since European players take the ball generally after the top of the bounce ( and most often a lot later when the ball is dropping to the floor ), you see that European players have no choice but to "adapt". So if you put Chinese apply it to "all" incoming shots loop against the European "adapt" and "choose contact time" technique, the European is technically a lot more susceptible to unforced errors.

The use of wrist. The clear difference in European and Chinese loops is the use of wrist. The Europeans aim to achieve greater spin using their power input capabilities, while Chinese aim to achieve greater speed with very strong spin. In order to achieve this with European style, the wrist is dropped a lot lower almost looking like the arm is flapping - the chicken arm look, but this also helps because it opens up the face of the blade to contact the ball after the bounce ( the bounce can be unpredictable with strong spin ) and since the ball is taken after the top of the bounce, this becomes the full pledge technique of the European loop. For Chinese loop, the wrist stays a lot more open all the time, as the time of the contact and the power input is what drives consistency. Essentially all the years of training mastering this technique goes to work like a well oiled and fueled machine. What is amazing is in that stroke, the Chinese players have their wrist open, however still are able to contact the top of the ball - which is amazing because to do so, you need incredible training. This shot is VERY difficult to do against all kinds of incoming balls. The timing for this shot to work must be perfect! However, Chinese training develops players that master this with quite an ease.

So, if you have been patient and read what I wrote, I will summarize.

The difference among these loops is training, timing, contact point, and speed/power input ratios. Which one is bettter? Well, none. Loop itself does not win points. What does win points is consistency, consistency against varied incoming ball ( varied in terms of spin and speed ). What wins games in other technical strengths such as serve, 3rd ball, placement, footwork, etc.

So can one player possess technique for both of these - certainly, only question is what for? Every player has their own strengths that empower their own technique, so its just a matter of finding out what that strength is and develop skill of adjusting the strokes to use strengths in the game.

In order to do so, the player needs to analyze are they better at playing close to the table, mid, far distance? Are they better that blocking close to table and mid distance countering? Are they better to take the ball off the bounce at the top of the bounce or after the top of the bounce? Etc, etc, etc.

One thing is certain, it is always better to develop technique which has a wider range of application against incoming shots. Regarding the section I left above about Chinese loop and how it works against a very wide range of incoming shots.... Where you see that this loop does not work and needs adjustment is against a consistent strong chops coming from a defender. You see Chinese players making adjustments when they play defenders during the game and quite many of them ( even top Chinese players ) struggle. Yet, its not a major concern since there are too few defenders out there, so the training is statistically driven - training mostly against topspin or attacking another top spin player's push.






Edited by Leshxa - 01/04/2011 at 8:22am
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