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The great China vs Euro loop myth

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Heimdallalso View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/05/2011 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Who is #1 now?  What kind of loop does he have?
  
While I like Timo & his game a great deal it is an aberration; that being his #1 position at the moment.
 
I also agree with those who say too much is made of the difference in the rubbers/equipments.
I also happen to think the straight arm loop, may at times, translate more efficiently in regards to speed & spin Vs the more "Euro" model.
It is hard to argue with success.
 
Just one mans view!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/05/2011 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

This is a game of precision, consistency and mobility not power.
 
I respectfully disagree with this too.
I would phrase it differently. We have all seen players who translate the power (available through more or less "correct" technique, or not) that may be available to them poorly; maybe extremely poorly as they've not even a beginners understanding.
 
TT is a sport where we have to learn how to put our power into the ball efficiently as well as the other factors you've also noted.
 
Time is short...
gotta run.
 
Good Hitting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/05/2011 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

This is a game of precision, consistency and mobility not power.
 
TT is a sport where we have to learn how to put our power into the ball efficiently as well as the other factors you've also noted.
If you mean that power must be controlled then I agree.  The point I was making is that we have excess capacity in power but not enough prescision, consistency and mobility.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/05/2011 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

You guys crack me up.   You think only in the present.
If I where 19 years old I would chose Timo Boll's style no doubt.
BUT
If I where 59 years old I couldn't do what Timo Boll can do no matter how much training and condition was done but I could still attempt to play like PushBlocker.  I would need to learn his mental discipline first.
I said this before, PushBlocker can play the same way for the next 20 years and probably get better during some if not most of that time.  You can't say that for Timo Boll.


Thank you for reminding me about the past.  Right when I am about to forget, I am actually still waiting for a response to the "reference" I have provided that you insisted so much on.  And I expect it, if you care enough to ever make one, to be nothing short of possessing with it a decent degree of Emotional Quotient, admittedly because you have a way with neurological excitation and BP escalation that rival the momentarily (un)professional player Wang Yuegu.

Excuse me for going off-topic, APW46.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/05/2011 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

That depends - do you want to look pretty or do you want to win?


Confessedly I am a member of the greedy bunch when it comes to striving for a win while pretending to look pretty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 12:10am
Just saw a slow motion video of Boll's forehand and realized that there isn't an elbow snap as much as there is a forward and upward pivot of the forearm about the axis of the upper arm which rotates in the shoulder socket. The motion can be likened to waving bye-bye to the floor with the entire forearm like a windshield wiper, pivoting in a plane parallel to the floor, pivoting about the upper arm, with the elbow tucked in at the side. Tilt the plane so the forearm is pivoting from low to high and that's pretty much Boll's arm motion. The trick is to not just close the elbow. If done right, there should be a bit of tension in the rear delts in the backswing. Boll's wrist lags as his elbow pivots forward and up, and catches up at contact with a snap. I can't tell how much the angle changes between his forearm and upper arm before and after contact. Perhaps he also incorporates some degree of elbow snap. Thoughts anyone?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 1:57am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Just saw a slow motion video of Boll's forehand and realized that there isn't an elbow snap as much as there is a forward and upward pivot of the forearm about the axis of the upper arm which rotates in the shoulder socket. The motion can be likened to waving bye-bye to the floor with the entire forearm like a windshield wiper, pivoting in a plane parallel to the floor, pivoting about the upper arm, with the elbow tucked in at the side. Tilt the plane so the forearm is pivoting from low to high and that's pretty much Boll's arm motion. The trick is to not just close the elbow. If done right, there should be a bit of tension in the rear delts in the backswing. Boll's wrist lags as his elbow pivots forward and up, and catches up at contact with a snap. I can't tell how much the angle changes between his forearm and upper arm before and after contact. Perhaps he also incorporates some degree of elbow snap. Thoughts anyone?


There are way to many variables at play. I don't know if anyone ever teaches an elbow snap, but I think if you have to focus and work on this particular part of the stroke, then its very unlikely that the stroke is executed correctly. I guess in the game is different because in lack of time, possible elbow snap can compensate for deficiency in footwork or lack of time to use footwork.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 2:00am
Originally posted by DDreamer DDreamer wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Leshxa, I totally agree with you that it's a technique issue, not an equipment issue. I can use any type of inverted rubber and loop almost the same way with very minor adjustments (mostly blade angle and amount of effort used). The number of ejs on this forum thinking that equipment is more important technique is just ridiculous.
 
Yes, Leshxa was spot on. It's like there is some mass delusion going down. How so many people could believe such nonsense is truly astounding and worthy of a sociological study.   


I would definitely be interested in this "study". I think too many people fantasize that there is something on the market that would immediately bump the game up for lots of people. Reminds me a scene in "Tip Cup" when someone has like 100 different golf gadgets attached to them to learn the proper technique, lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pipigrande Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 5:07pm
Question...

Is there a such thing as proper technique? It seems that you could have a Chinese stroke, European Stroke, something in the middle, something in the far end, etc.

What defines a proper technique?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by pipigrande pipigrande wrote:

Question...

Is there a such thing as proper technique? It seems that you could have a Chinese stroke, European Stroke, something in the middle, something in the far end, etc.

What defines a proper technique?
 Exactly my friend, the point of the thread in total context.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thaidog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:03pm
In other sports, golf particularly, every *individual* has his own style... no two players are exactly the same... BUT there are are similarities... stance width, ball, position, "hitter" or "swinger"... Back in the 70's there was the Jack Nicklaus swing type that gained a lot of popularity and many pros including Greg Norman became very successful with it. It is a good technique... but it was just *that* - a technique that pros taught because it had proven to be successful... a passing trend. Today there is "stack and tilt", the Leadbetter swing theory and many other competing schools of thought. Even still there are completely unorthodox players like Jim Furyk. After seeing all of this for me it comes down to utter nonsense to call one style superior to another. Probably even more crazy to try to adhere yourself to one type of style... find something that works for YOU and stick to it. Don't be afraid to try new styles and approaches and get worse before you get better to find that style though. TT is a sport filled with different styles and that is what makes it great... I hate nothing more than the people I see who come up to others acting like they know that person's game and what they can do better than they do.... next they are recruiting this person in to their cult of TT where they are the god and it's because their technique is so perfect and awesome... and of course they can teach it to them because of their superior intelligence.  Never mind being a pro player and a teaching pro are two different things and this type or person is neither!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:04pm
A complete player must be able to do both.

More Euro when close to the table for spin and control in opening loops (watch gatien, maze, boll).

More Chinese style when getting away from the table (more time for a bigger back swing) --> there the legs play a much bigger role and the arm is fully extended and goes "free" as soon as the player has "thrown his shoulder away" --> http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/06-09.html see ma long in the background (gosh!!! that little clip really influenced me).

Of course, as pipigrande underlines it, we have everything in between!



Edited by stiltt - 03/25/2023 at 5:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2011 at 4:44am
Originally posted by Thaidog Thaidog wrote:

In other sports, golf particularly, every *individual* has his own style... no two players are exactly the same... BUT there are are similarities... stance width, ball, position, "hitter" or "swinger"... Back in the 70's there was the Jack Nicklaus swing type that gained a lot of popularity and many pros including Greg Norman became very successful with it. It is a good technique... but it was just *that* - a technique that pros taught because it had proven to be successful... a passing trend. Today there is "stack and tilt", the Leadbetter swing theory and many other competing schools of thought. Even still there are completely unorthodox players like Jim Furyk. After seeing all of this for me it comes down to utter nonsense to call one style superior to another. Probably even more crazy to try to adhere yourself to one type of style... find something that works for YOU and stick to it. Don't be afraid to try new styles and approaches and get worse before you get better to find that style though. TT is a sport filled with different styles and that is what makes it great... I hate nothing more than the people I see who come up to others acting like they know that person's game and what they can do better than they do.... next they are recruiting this person in to their cult of TT where they are the god and it's because their technique is so perfect and awesome... and of course they can teach it to them because of their superior intelligence.  Never mind being a pro player and a teaching pro are two different things and this type or person is neither!
 One major difference between golf and TT, in TT there is an opponent trying his best to stop you/mess you up/ directly affect your technique, in Golf a player is put off if a sparrow farts 300 yards away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thaidog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2011 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

 One major difference between golf and TT, in TT there is an opponent trying his best to stop you/mess you up/ directly affect your technique, in Golf a player is put off if a sparrow farts 300 yards away.

LOL 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2011 at 2:41pm
starting at 2:58 rally:

Ma Long was forced to continue using tenergy since Mattenet started attacking and he was caught off guard
(he twindles btw when smashing)


Im referring to the discussion about different rubbers = different strokes, which btw i agree 100%

the thread had gotten too big for me to mention my find of this video. Hope this sheds light lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dabookerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2011 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by Thaidog Thaidog wrote:

In other sports, golf particularly, every *individual* has his own style... no two players are exactly the same... BUT there are are similarities... stance width, ball, position, "hitter" or "swinger"... Back in the 70's there was the Jack Nicklaus swing type that gained a lot of popularity and many pros including Greg Norman became very successful with it. It is a good technique... but it was just *that* - a technique that pros taught because it had proven to be successful... a passing trend. Today there is "stack and tilt", the Leadbetter swing theory and many other competing schools of thought. Even still there are completely unorthodox players like Jim Furyk. After seeing all of this for me it comes down to utter nonsense to call one style superior to another. Probably even more crazy to try to adhere yourself to one type of style... find something that works for YOU and stick to it. Don't be afraid to try new styles and approaches and get worse before you get better to find that style though. TT is a sport filled with different styles and that is what makes it great... I hate nothing more than the people I see who come up to others acting like they know that person's game and what they can do better than they do.... next they are recruiting this person in to their cult of TT where they are the god and it's because their technique is so perfect and awesome... and of course they can teach it to them because of their superior intelligence.  Never mind being a pro player and a teaching pro are two different things and this type or person is neither!
 One major difference between golf and TT, in TT there is an opponent trying his best to stop you/mess you up/ directly affect your technique, in Golf a player is put off if a sparrow farts 300 yards away.


LOL - many a farting sparrow has ruined a good round of mine....

I actually like the golf analogies but in an entirely different way.  Because of the distances involved, golf entails that the player who most accurately applies combined force WITH physics hits the ball the farthest.  It is easy to prove this yet many don't get it. 

The problem with TT as noted is that you have to apply the stroke within the time and space constraints of each point.  I agree that many styles work both in golf and TT, but the underlying physical principles remain the same.  Power in both is primarily generated by torsional rotation of the body (or weight shift) applied to the arc of the swing.  IMHO, the same thing applies to the loop and explains why physically smaller Chinese loopers can blast through the more imposing European loopers as they are generating a longer, more efficient arc of acceleration through their arm extension and weight shift. 

This application of physics also explains the increased back struggles of Boll and Maze.  Basically, a Chinese looper in effect slings his arm through the swing using larger core muscles while the Euros place more starting and stopping in the actual arm itself which places stress on the back. 

Look at any sport involving a swinging motion - TT, golf, tennis, baseball, even jai alai or throwing a football - and the power comes from the release of power built through torsional rotation/acceleration and not from the arm or side itself.  One of the more puzzling things to most though, is that that players with the most efficient motions both generate more power and have fewer core muscle injuries. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dabookerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2011 at 6:27pm
I am 6'00' tall and not only can I hit a golf ball more than 300+ yards, I routinely FLY it more than 300+ yards.  I have very long arms which help my swing arc and great rotational flexibility (even though I cannot bend over and touch my toes!).  The main drawback with TT is that there is not enough time to execute a full rotational swing. 

This explains why WLQ literally "owned a decade" with his FH.  He was just big enough to generate the largest arc with the most power yet not too big for that swing to be too long for the speed of the game. 

Edited by dabookerman - 01/07/2011 at 6:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thaidog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2011 at 8:11pm
I was pretty long off the tee back in the day I played but I was of average build so I compensated by taking the club back way past parallel. As I got older and increasingly more fragile I had to make my swing more efficient to get the same distance. This brought up the question of what is the most perfect technique to produce the most power... sadly it seems to turn out still an individual thing due to a big factor a reasons. For instance as a teenager you are growing at a high rate of speed and are flexible, easily recover from injury and can gain muscle much more quickly. This leads to being able to be more aggressive, and have imperfect technique but it does not matter because you can make up for it because you have plenty of time to learn and still are growing taller so your swing has to change anyway. But what if you are old / injured? You'll have to change your swing! You might have spent a lot of time learning one technique but now you can't use it anymore because your body can do that! So now you have a different style to learn to get back to the same level. Same thing in TT. That's why you don't see many people in wheel chairs who are choppers or lobbers it's just not possible.

In TT the application of power has even more constraints.. for example the more incoming topspin the ball has the more of a glancing blow you must make to re-loop the ball. In that case the application of speed and power to the ball has be be every precise. In golf the tee box is pretty much perfect... still the golf swing is more complex and has still other factors that get involved like wind / weather... etc.
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Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I just can't get away from this one, however much I think about it I just feel that the differences between the two perceived styles is so close, yet they are discussed in length on these forums as if they were chalk and cheese. There is also a massive overlap, some European players play with a 'Chinese style' and some Chinese play with a 'European style' yet time and time again we read post by members who are developing one or the other as if it were the difference between dark and light. We always end up with some kind of debate as to which one is superior, but there are advantages and disadvantages to both of the very slight variations. Anyone thought of going right down the middle?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2011 at 4:34am
Originally posted by TTslurp TTslurp wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I just can't get away from this one, however much I think about it I just feel that the differences between the two perceived styles is so close, yet they are discussed in length on these forums as if they were chalk and cheese. There is also a massive overlap, some European players play with a 'Chinese style' and some Chinese play with a 'European style' yet time and time again we read post by members who are developing one or the other as if it were the difference between dark and light. We always end up with some kind of debate as to which one is superior, but there are advantages and disadvantages to both of the very slight variations. Anyone thought of going right down the middle?


Just testing now...
 testing what exactly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shakepender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2011 at 6:23am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

A complete player must be able to do both.

More Euro when close to the table for spin and control in opening loops (watch gatien, maze, boll).

More Chinese style when getting away from the table (more time for a bigger back swing) --> there the legs play a much bigger role and the arm is fully extended and goes "free" as soon as the player has "thrown his shoulder away" --> http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/06-09.html see ma long in the background (gosh!!! that little clip really influenced me).

Of course, as pipigrande underlines it, we have everything in between!

 
How does one train to conciously or automatically do the European loop when close to the table and the Chinese one when further away?
 
I find myself doing a quick and shortened Chinese loop when close to the table and missing completely...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2011 at 6:43am
Originally posted by mon22 mon22 wrote:

starting at 2:58 rally:

Ma Long was forced to continue using tenergy since Mattenet started attacking and he was caught off guard
(he twindles btw when smashing)


Im referring to the discussion about different rubbers = different strokes, which btw i agree 100%

the thread had gotten too big for me to mention my find of this video. Hope this sheds light lol
Mattenet looks to have a great game (a little off subject how can 90% of his serves be legal , he tosses from near the middle a half metre back and sideways??) but I do like his allround game
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTslurp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2011 at 9:33am
Testing my new Super Duper Euro Chinese choploop...  No, sorry, was just testing how my reply would look if i clicked "Quote". I am new to this forum. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTslurp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2011 at 9:38am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by TTslurp TTslurp wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I just can't get away from this one, however much I think about it I just feel that the differences between the two perceived styles is so close, yet they are discussed in length on these forums as if they were chalk and cheese. There is also a massive overlap, some European players play with a 'Chinese style' and some Chinese play with a 'European style' yet time and time again we read post by members who are developing one or the other as if it were the difference between dark and light. We always end up with some kind of debate as to which one is superior, but there are advantages and disadvantages to both of the very slight variations. Anyone thought of going right down the middle?


Just testing now...
 testing what exactly?


Testing my new Super Duper Euro Chinese choploop...  No, sorry, was just testing how my reply would look if i clicked "Quote". I am new to this forum. 

Could you please inform me how to remove a reply of mine?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dragon kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2011 at 10:00am
ttslurp...
You can't remove a reply.. you only allowed to edit it..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTslurp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2011 at 10:06am
Originally posted by dragon kid dragon kid wrote:

ttslurp...
You can't remove a reply.. you only allowed to edit it..


OK thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/2012 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

The only thing you can control is the speed, attitude and direction of the paddle at the moment of contact.  It doesn't make ANY DIFFERENCE what happened before or after the ball leaves the paddle 2-4 milliseconds.  Convex, concave, straight arm or chicken wing, it makes no difference if you are standing on your head or just throwing the paddle and happen to hit the ball just right.  If the speed,attitude and direction of the paddle are the same at contact the result will be the same if the balls direction, speed and spin are the same.

What is all boils down to is the paddle imparts an impulse ( force times dwell time ) on the ball. This impulse has a magnitude and direction.  If the impulse is the same then the ball will respond respond in the same way given it has the same speed, direction, and spin.   All this talk about speed, throw and spin really boils down to the magnitude and direction of the impulse.  

TT is still subject to the laws of physics.  How is that for sucking the fun out of an argument?
In a moment of letting my brain run in neutral I got sucked in to that convex/concave argument many months back.  

 
I think that while playing today, I realized that this POV is quite wrong and in a dangerous way too, because in practice what you do before and after contact does affect how the ball is contacted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/2012 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

The only thing you can control is the speed, attitude and direction of the paddle at the moment of contact.  It doesn't make ANY DIFFERENCE what happened before or after the ball leaves the paddle 2-4 milliseconds.  Convex, concave, straight arm or chicken wing, it makes no difference if you are standing on your head or just throwing the paddle and happen to hit the ball just right.  If the speed,attitude and direction of the paddle are the same at contact the result will be the same if the balls direction, speed and spin are the same.

What is all boils down to is the paddle imparts an impulse ( force times dwell time ) on the ball. This impulse has a magnitude and direction.  If the impulse is the same then the ball will respond respond in the same way given it has the same speed, direction, and spin.   All this talk about speed, throw and spin really boils down to the magnitude and direction of the impulse.  

TT is still subject to the laws of physics.  How is that for sucking the fun out of an argument?
In a moment of letting my brain run in neutral I got sucked in to that convex/concave argument many months back.  

 
I think that while playing today, I realized that this POV is quite wrong and in a dangerous way too, because in practice what you do before and after contact does affect how the ball is contacted.


It doesn't affect HOW the ball is contacted. It affects WHERE the ball is contacted!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/2012 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

 
I think that while playing today, I realized that this POV is quite wrong and in a dangerous way too, because in practice what you do before and after contact does affect how the ball is contacted.


It doesn't affect HOW the ball is contacted. It affects WHERE the ball is contacted!
 
Let's be substantive - "how" can incorporate "where" unless we make a clear distinction. 
 
I agree that the location of contact is important, but I also believe that some strokes (concave/convex) produce more dwell time as distinct from different contact points than other strokes (vertical/horizontal) and that this difference in dwell time/contact point can have a significant difference in effect on the ball.
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