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The great China vs Euro loop myth

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Baal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2012 at 2:55am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:


I don't need a model to tell me that mass that is rotating farther way from the center of rotation will have more inertia than mass that is rotating closer to the center of rotation.   If you twist your whole body the center of rotation becomes the COG, or close to it, of the body but the radius is larger and that increases the rotational inertia.  Also one must include the rotating the body.

The question all you have failed to ask is what is the optimal radius of rotation of the paddle?  The inertia goes up with the radius of the mass squared.   The velocity of the paddle goes up with the radius of rotation.



This is of course all correct, but those same rotational forces are also tending to cause the player to lose his/her balance -- in the worst case falling over -- so there is an optimum distance from the paddle and body and different players find their optimum at different degrees of elbow extension (ascertainable by simple observation).  Remember, good players expect the ball is coming back and they will need to hit another good shot.  Also, as the body rotates, a movement of the elbow properly timed adds extra speed/spin to the ball.  If your arm is already fully extended, you can maybe get that extra zip from the shoulder, but those muscles are not as capable of fine controlled movement as the ones that control the elbow joint (and rotator cuff injuries are no fun). It is harder to time.  That of course is pure physiology.  Likelihood of badly hit ball increases.


Edited by Baal - 10/06/2012 at 2:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king_pong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2012 at 5:50am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by hallur hallur wrote:

 
The guy in the blue? That is the biggest understatement I've ever heard...


Yes.  It is a very dark blue.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2012 at 6:43am
Originally posted by king_pong king_pong wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by hallur hallur wrote:

 
The guy in the blue? That is the biggest understatement I've ever heard...


Yes.  It is a very dark blue.
 
LOLClap That was good! LOL
lol.... 

Anyway I'm starting to dislike labels like this, because it has many racial connotations. I find that most people become agitated when race is involved, and it ends up derailing the thread. Why not just call it a straight-arm loop and a bent-arm loop? That'll help to make the discussion much more objective, than calling Euro, Chinese, Hungarian, American loops.... there's no Swiss stroke in tennis nor is there any Indonesian/Malaysian/Chinese stroke in badminton...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2012 at 3:50am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:


I don't need a model to tell me that mass that is rotating farther way from the center of rotation will have more inertia than mass that is rotating closer to the center of rotation.   If you twist your whole body the center of rotation becomes the COG, or close to it, of the body but the radius is larger and that increases the rotational inertia.  Also one must include the rotating the body.

The question all you have failed to ask is what is the optimal radius of rotation of the paddle?  The inertia goes up with the radius of the mass squared.   The velocity of the paddle goes up with the radius of rotation.



This is of course all correct, but those same rotational forces are also tending to cause the player to lose his/her balance -- in the worst case falling over -- so there is an optimum distance from the paddle and body and different players find their optimum at different degrees of elbow extension (ascertainable by simple observation).  Remember, good players expect the ball is coming back and they will need to hit another good shot.  Also, as the body rotates, a movement of the elbow properly timed adds extra speed/spin to the ball.  If your arm is already fully extended, you can maybe get that extra zip from the shoulder, but those muscles are not as capable of fine controlled movement as the ones that control the elbow joint (and rotator cuff injuries are no fun). It is harder to time.  That of course is pure physiology.  Likelihood of badly hit ball increases.
So go one step furth and talk about the difference between professional level players and amateurs.  Professionals use their training to develop strength and balance, hence it makes sense for them to seek more power with a straighter arm.  Amateurs, by comparison, suffer those problems that you mentioned: balance, fine motor control, and so on.  So if people are going to argue the merits of these two type of FH loops, they should distinguish according to the level of players they are discussing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2012 at 3:57am
With a straighter arm, I find it easier to adjust the blade angle relative to my swing angle.

And about this forever unending debate/discussion, just understand what needs to happen and find YOUR way to try to make it happen, be it straight arm, bent arm, or double bent arm. Yes, TT as well as human physiology obey the principle of physics, but ultimately it's YOU who decides what works for you. Realize your limitations and stick with what you CAN do rather than chasing after THE ideal or perfect swing on paper and on the table.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2012 at 9:04pm
I think when one does training with multiball or a robot set in sequence, one realize pretty quickly there is optimal and less than optimal ways of getting a good quality ball over the net.

Sometime you are too close and the paddle is right up against you body as you torque your upper body quickly to get the paddle over the ball.  Sometime you are too far away and your arm is completely straight at the elbow, requiring a snap of the wrist to generate enough topspin to land.

In a game, it is even more erratic.  But it is good to know the ideal for those easy balls that come your way every now and then for the text book pretty kill...Why else do we practice? If not to look good sometimes...lol.


Edited by power7 - 10/07/2012 at 9:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2012 at 1:15am
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

ML-
Ma Long's fh is somewhat unique and is, imho, a significant advancement in fh technique. I may off course be wrong, but I think the key to his fh, as well as his bh, is the use of his left arm. My ,hypothesis is that it acts as a counter weight when he pulls it in. The accelerated mass of his left arm applies a torque to the upper torso which then is directly applied to the right arm. Bending his left arm at the elbow condenses the mass. It's like firing a trebuchet.
...
Among other benefits this allows him to keep his arm relatively straight but not sacrifice as much swing speed/acceleration.

V-Griper, I didn't notice this until you pointed it out.  It does appear like Ma Long's left arm's action
adds more momentum to his forehand stroke.  As with finely tuned athletes, dancers, capoeira artists, 
martial artists and the like, some people have a highly developed body awareness/kinesthetic sense that
employ almost sub-conciously to the ends of their sport or art.  It is a joy to watch someone execute
with such fluid power and grace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercuur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2012 at 2:03pm
Also his bat starts closer to his body. His body rotation/swing makes his arm go outward and stretch horizontal.
With enough swing of the upperbody the arm can be completely relaxed and allready have a proper trajektory for the bat because this also lifts the arm.
Something similar happens with old fashioned swing mills with seats hanging on longer wires. As the swingmill starts the seats go to a further radial distance and gain height with the rope more horizontal. Keeping the feet on the floor when the swingmill starts helps to increase the height and radius distance and accelleration at highest / furthest point is much higher.

For tabletennis bending the elbow would interfere with this because it brings the bat closer to the body.

Something I haven,t seen mentioned is the abillity of muscles to take over energy from other muscles and even gravity.

Muscles have a spring quality for this. For instance jumping as high as possible from stand it,s better result to start straight up, then go down and up. The action where the knees and hips bend tensons the muscles with energy from gravity. With some timing the muscles own energy adds to this with a much higher jump as result.

A swift body rotation/swing tensions the shoulder muscles for the longer arm in a similar way. The long arm is much more explosive from that.

Part of the swing action is even hidden. When the arm is relaxed the arm and bat move outward and gain height also. The energy for the swing finds an easy way out to the arm and bat. The  increase for moment of inertia counteracts the muscle action with almost no visible body swing as result. But when Ma long would do the same action except keep his play arm tight to his body  he would rotate as if he drank too much alcohol and be balanced.




Edited by mercuur - 10/24/2012 at 2:19pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danhs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2012 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

  Also, as the body rotates, a movement of the elbow properly timed adds extra speed/spin to the ball.  If your arm is already fully extended, you can maybe get that extra zip from the shoulder, but those muscles are not as capable of fine controlled movement as the ones that control the elbow joint (and rotator cuff injuries are no fun). It is harder to time.  That of course is pure physiology.  Likelihood of badly hit ball increases.
  A good example of this tendency for bad misses due to mis-timing is Chen Qi, who has possibly the most extended arm swing of any player.  He can really spray some balls when he's off. Having said that, I personally prefer watching straight-arm loopers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2012 at 3:59pm
My favorite players have always included WLQ (straight) and Gatien (extreme chicken wing).  I really focus more on how well these guys move in a more global sense, since that is by far the most important thing.  Among Chinese, WLQ and KLH played very differently, but they were both so graceful and fluid on their feet.  Awesome is an over-used word, but that is how I always regarded their footwork. (And for me, everything about WLQ in his prime). Samsonov is not blindingly fast, far from it (!), but he is always so amazingly relaxed that he nearly always plays a very solid shot in perfect balance.  I have always felt that people would be better off if they practiced mostly hitting loops and counters while having to constantly move to get to the ball, rather than how they move their arm.  If you're in the right place, the arm pretty much takes care of itself.  I noticed in China that's how they trained people.  Multiballs to exhaustion, and then their movements become economical and efficient.
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