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The modern Chinese looping technique?

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    Posted: 02/07/2012 at 4:18pm
I am not sure if this article has been discussed before, but I found it very interesting:


Major points of interest regarding the looping technique as described:

1) Hit the ball at 80-90 degrees into the sponge.

2) Turn the wrist when making contact to keep the ball into the sponge. (presumably the wrist and forearm together). 

3) Start the stroke at the ball's current height.

4) Use the whole arm but closer to the table less of the upper arm. 

5) Control the ball with the sponge and wrist turning movement.

6) Follow through as much as you want. The stroke does not have to stop at the nose. 

Comments are welcomed!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2012 at 4:26pm
Rich,
 
 
Quite controversial
 
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Ahh! Long discussion. I am looking forward to reading it. Thanks for the link!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richrf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2012 at 5:44pm
Nice discussion. As an update, has anyone tried using this technique? If so, how did it go? Also, if you are using this technique, which rubber works best for you? Tuned or untuned H2/H3? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldenDragoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2012 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Nice discussion. As an update, has anyone tried using this technique? If so, how did it go? Also, if you are using this technique, which rubber works best for you? Tuned or untuned H2/H3? 


I have been taught something very similar. I don't use much wrist at all with my forhand, but all my brush strokes are hit with an arc. Like the chinese the goal is to increase the dwell time of the ball in the sponge which produces crazy amounts of spin relative to the ball speed. Increasing the dwell this way also takes advantage of of the tensor style rubbers giving more performance than the classic 45 degree stroke.
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Originally posted by GoldenDragoon GoldenDragoon wrote:

I have been taught something very similar. I don't use much wrist at all with my forhand, but all my brush strokes are hit with an arc. Like the chinese the goal is to increase the dwell time of the ball in the sponge which produces crazy amounts of spin relative to the ball speed. Increasing the dwell this way also takes advantage of of the tensor style rubbers giving more performance than the classic 45 degree stroke.

Thanks for the info. Very helpful.

One of the points of the discussion is that the tackiness of the Chinese rubbers helps secure the ball during the forearm/wrist rotation. On the other hand, it is my understanding that the Chinese, for the most part, tune all of the H2/H3 rubbers. 


Edited by richrf - 02/07/2012 at 6:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RankAmateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2012 at 6:14pm
Just looks like a self-congratulatory ad for the Chinese technique.  Quite a few Europeans, Waldner, Boll, etc. have done quite well with other techniques, more like the racket to nose, primarily forearm looping style, as well.  I've been through this in golf, the whole once-and-for-all-this-is-the-technique-this-is-it-folks line.  What works for you is what works given your body type and training, there are a lot of different methods to become top 50 in the world, but the main factor is not adopting a given technique in any sport, it's repetition and mastery earned over the course of years of personal trial and error.  The main reason the Chinese dominate is more because they emphasize it as a major sport in their country so by sheer numbers, they're likely to produce more champions.  It's not because of their looping technique, for goodness sake, it's probably in spite of it.  

Edited by RankAmateur - 02/07/2012 at 6:21pm
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Originally posted by RankAmateur RankAmateur wrote:

Just looks like a self-congratulatory ad for the Chinese technique.  Quite a few Europeans, Waldner, Boll, etc. have done quite well with other techniques, more like the racket to nose, primarily forearm looping style, as well.  I've been through this in golf, the whole once-and-for-all-this-is-the-technique-this-is-it-folks line.  What works for you is what works given your body type and training, there are a lot of different methods to become top 50 in the world, but the main factor is not adopting a given technique in any sport, it's repetition and mastery earned over the course of years of personal trial and error.  The main reason the Chinese dominate is more because they emphasize it as a major sport in their country so by sheer numbers, they're likely to produce more champions.  It's not because of their looping technique, for goodness sake, it's probably in spite of it.  
 
I find your opinion somewhat disrespectful, but everyone is entitled to it, so I won't offer my own to counter yours.  Peace.
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Originally posted by RankAmateur RankAmateur wrote:

Just looks like a self-congratulatory ad for the Chinese technique.  Quite a few Europeans, Waldner, Boll, etc. have done quite well with other techniques, more like the racket to nose, primarily forearm looping style, as well.  I've been through this in golf, the whole once-and-for-all-this-is-the-technique-this-is-it-folks line.  What works for you is what works given your body type and training, there are a lot of different methods to become top 50 in the world, but the main factor is not adopting a given technique in any sport, it's repetition and mastery earned over the course of years of personal trial and error.  The main reason the Chinese dominate is more because they emphasize it as a major sport in their country so by sheer numbers, they're likely to produce more champions.  It's not because of their looping technique, for goodness sake, it's probably in spite of it.  

Certainly repetition is a major aspect since this helps build body memory. However, I do not think any country has studied table tennis techniques as well as China. And I also believe that they may have picked up some of these techniques from studying the Swedes including Waldner and Persson. I remember watching a slow motion of Waldner in the Donic training video and in his looping technique, he definitely displays a wrist/forearm turn during the stroke. I believe Persson does similar. 

I think there is something to be said for this technique. I even remember one of my coaches who was a 2600 player from Serbia who use to hit in this style. He never taught it to me explicitly but from time to time he would suggest that I cover the ball upon contact. 
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Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by RankAmateur RankAmateur wrote:

Just looks like a self-congratulatory ad for the Chinese technique.  Quite a few Europeans, Waldner, Boll, etc. have done quite well with other techniques, more like the racket to nose, primarily forearm looping style, as well.  I've been through this in golf, the whole once-and-for-all-this-is-the-technique-this-is-it-folks line.  What works for you is what works given your body type and training, there are a lot of different methods to become top 50 in the world, but the main factor is not adopting a given technique in any sport, it's repetition and mastery earned over the course of years of personal trial and error.  The main reason the Chinese dominate is more because they emphasize it as a major sport in their country so by sheer numbers, they're likely to produce more champions.  It's not because of their looping technique, for goodness sake, it's probably in spite of it.  

Certainly repetition is a major aspect since this helps build body memory. However, I do not think any country has studied table tennis techniques as well as China. And I also believe that they may have picked up some of these techniques from studying the Swedes including Waldner and Persson. I remember watching a slow motion of Waldner in the Donic training video and in his looping technique, he definitely displays a wrist/forearm turn during the stroke. I believe Persson does similar. 

I think there is something to be said for this technique. I even remember one of my coaches who was a 2600 player from Serbia who use to hit in this style. He never taught it to me explicitly but from time to time he would suggest that I cover the ball upon contact. 


Yeah, perhaps Waldner somewhat.  I was watching Boll, though, and he exemplifies almost exactly the opposite of what they say when they claim the bring it up to the nose method is wrong.  That's the way he appeared to do it to me, and #4 in the world is nothing to sneeze at. 
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Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by RankAmateur RankAmateur wrote:

Just looks like a self-congratulatory ad for the Chinese technique.  Quite a few Europeans, Waldner, Boll, etc. have done quite well with other techniques, more like the racket to nose, primarily forearm looping style, as well.  I've been through this in golf, the whole once-and-for-all-this-is-the-technique-this-is-it-folks line.  What works for you is what works given your body type and training, there are a lot of different methods to become top 50 in the world, but the main factor is not adopting a given technique in any sport, it's repetition and mastery earned over the course of years of personal trial and error.  The main reason the Chinese dominate is more because they emphasize it as a major sport in their country so by sheer numbers, they're likely to produce more champions.  It's not because of their looping technique, for goodness sake, it's probably in spite of it.  
 
I find your opinion somewhat disrespectful, but everyone is entitled to it, so I won't offer my own to counter yours.  Peace.


I'm sure any number of opinions of mine are disrespectful, I'm reminded of this periodically by wife, teenage daughters, students, colleagues, boss, etc.

Sorry if I came across as abrasive, I'm a middle-aged mediocrity, goes with territory.

My only irritation here, in all frankness, was at the notion I perceived in video and comments here of Wow, this is it!  I saw that attitude so many times in competitive golf, you'd pick up Golf Magazine or Golf Digest, and I swear, the cover article would typically read something like "THE KEY to More Power", and next month, without a single scintilla of shame, they'd print another article entitled something like "THE SECRET to More Power", and the "secret" would just as often be a refutation of the "key" from the previous month!  I saw athlete after athlete--including me--waste their time chasing someone else's techniques without ever considering body type, what's comfortable for them, etc.  When I see it all over again, my natural born skepticism rises up and I say "Eh" and wave my hand dismissively like an old curmudgeon.

Peace to you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RankAmateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2012 at 6:42pm
Please also recognize, roundrobin, that I know little to nothing about TT yet, have not been playing very long, and base my comments and "bah humbug" mentality strictly on experiences in another sport (golf, where I failed to make any meaningful mark and finally gave up in frustration at not being able to compete at the statewide or national level and lack of time due to accumulation of children).  So many of my TT comments must be taken in light of my relative ignorance.  With grain of salt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2012 at 8:05pm
Rank, you may come off as a bit abrasive, but you're completely correct.  There is no golden technique, even the Chinese players use different techniques.  Compare Ma Long with Zhang Jike with Lin Gaoyuan, and you'll see that 1) their preferred looping techniques are all different, and 2) they use all of the various looping techniques depending on the situation.

Richf, I mainly use this technique when looping, and I find that my H3 and T64 both work pretty well with it.  Tensors generally don't work very well though, as their lack of dwell time doesn't allow the sufficient brushing using that technique.  Notice how the brushing goes up and the racket angle is fairly open after contact during the follow through.  With tensors like Hexer HD, you need to use a technique like what your Serbian coach does, which is to cover up the ball after contact, so that the racket angle becomes pretty closed, like this:


Note that Tenergies work very well with both techniques, while tensors and the Chinese rubbers are more specific(Chinese rubbers are too slow for Timo's technique).  I never tune, but I assume that tuning would make it better.
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Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Richf, I mainly use this technique when looping, and I find that my H3 and T64 both work pretty well with it.  Tensors generally don't work very well though, as their lack of dwell time doesn't allow the sufficient brushing using that technique.  Notice how the brushing goes up and the racket angle is fairly open after contact during the follow through.  With tensors like Hexer HD, you need to use a technique like what your Serbian coach does, which is to cover up the ball after contact, so that the racket angle becomes pretty closed, like this:


Note that Tenergies work very well with both techniques, while tensors and the Chinese rubbers are more specific(Chinese rubbers are too slow for Timo's technique).  I never tune, but I assume that tuning would make it better.

Thanks for the link and the info.The technique seemed to work reasonably well with my Joola Phenix/Diamond CQ setup but I may try a H3 or Tenergy setup if I decide to further explore the technique. It is an extremely interesting technique. I hold my racket entirely with my index finger and thumb allowing my arm to be very relaxed. This allows me to make either long or short strokes with very solid forward impact. Sometimes I close and sometimes I leave it open and sometimes I come in on an angle. But the speed and spin are quite substantial.

I right away emailed a Chinese trained coach in the area and will take some lessons to get more insight. The technique does add a very interesting new dimension to the game for me.

Thanks again for the very valuable info.


Edited by richrf - 02/07/2012 at 9:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 12:12am
How does one 'cover' the ball after hitting it?  Just how much do you think you can change the angle of the paddle during a millisecond or two of dwell time?  What happens if the paddle attitude is changing during the stroke? What happens if the ball hits the paddle a millisecond or two sooner or later.  Then the ball will fly high or low.   How can one start covering after impact when it takes too much time for a person to react.

I have said this before.  Nothing really matter before or after the ball is hit.   If you use two different strokes but hit the ball with the same position, velocity, acceleration and attitude at impact the results will be the same.

@RankArmature,  I think it is good that you question things that 'don't pass the smell  test'.  Too much TT mysticism passes for knowledge. The sport science that has gone into golf is way more advanced than that of TT.  There is a lot of research that goes into making golf clubs.  Keep doubting and questioning.  I do.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 12:33am
[QUOTE=pnachtwey]The sport science that has gone into golf is way more advanced than that of TT.  There is a lot of research that goes into making golf clubs.  [QUOTE]
 
 
 
Hogwash.  The Chinese government already spent hundreds of millions of dollars in table tennis research and training in the past ten years alone.  Believe me, they are really not as dumb as you think when it comes to sport science... Wink  (Hint:  Which country won the most gold medals at the last Olympics?)
The funniest part is when they are genuinely willing to share their cumulative knowledge with the West, they are treated as b.s. "mysticism" by people like you. 
 
Sorry to be blunt... Sometimes is better to shut up and learn from the best.
 


Edited by roundrobin - 02/08/2012 at 12:50am
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Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

How does one 'cover' the ball after hitting it?  Just how much do you think you can change the angle of the paddle during a millisecond or two of dwell time?  What happens if the paddle attitude is changing during the stroke? What happens if the ball hits the paddle a millisecond or two sooner or later.  Then the ball will fly high or low.   How can one start covering after impact when it takes too much time for a person to react.

I have said this before.  Nothing really matter before or after the ball is hit.   If you use two different strokes but hit the ball with the same position, velocity, acceleration and attitude at impact the results will be the same.

@RankArmature,  I think it is good that you question things that 'don't pass the smell  test'.  Too much TT mysticism passes for knowledge. The sport science that has gone into golf is way more advanced than that of TT.  There is a lot of research that goes into making golf clubs.  Keep doubting and questioning.  I do.





You start to cover it before contact, the follow through simply ensures that you're continuously closing the paddle throughout contact.  How much does the angle change during impact?  Not much, but enough to make a difference.  It's the same with dwell time.  How much dwell time do you really get with a flexier blade?  Not much, but enough to make a difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richrf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 1:48am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

@RankArmature,  I think it is good that you question things that 'don't pass the smell  test'.  Too much TT mysticism passes for knowledge. The sport science that has gone into golf is way more advanced than that of TT.  There is a lot of research that goes into making golf clubs.  Keep doubting and questioning.  I do.

You don't have to cover the ball if your don't want to, but don't blame me if the coach throws a ping pong ball at you. 


Edited by richrf - 02/08/2012 at 1:49am
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@roundrobin, what rubber have the Chinese produced that is better than T05?
The ESN rubbers are made in Germany so that limits your selection.
The Chinese athletes are better because they have better training and better financial support.  Here the good athletes are distracted by sports that pay more money.

I wonder how many of those chinese players are multi millionaires.  They must have to give a lot of their prize money back to the state that sponsored them. What proof do you have that the Chinese have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on TT research?  Where is the return on investment?  Prestige?  Who cares?

I am not the one that believe in TT mysticism. I can justify my positions with links to back me up. The fact that you challenge me without anything to back your statement up shows your ignorance. I don't care how good your are at TT, you are misleading others.  I have always presented links to back up what I say, you have not.

@dingyibvs, at what rotation rate do you think you need to close or cover the ball? If the paddle is being rotated before the contact then then then rate of angle change will affect where the ball goes depending on if the ball hits the paddle a millisecond early or late.   Provide data or an example.

@richrf,  I would never blindly listen to anybody.  If the coach tells me something that doesn't make sense I would get a new coach. I would not waste my time or money.

@RankAmateur,  I have taken the heat of you. I can defend myself no problem and again I say question everything.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 3:09am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

@roundrobin, what rubber have the Chinese produced that is better than T05?
The ESN rubbers are made in Germany so that limits your selection.
The Chinese athletes are better because they have better training and better financial support.  Here the good athletes are distracted by sports that pay more money.

I wonder how many of those chinese players are multi millionaires.  They must have to give a lot of their prize money back to the state that sponsored them. What proof do you have that the Chinese have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on TT research?  Where is the return on investment?  Prestige?  Who cares?

I am not the one that believe in TT mysticism. I can justify my positions with links to back me up. The fact that you challenge me without anything to back your statement up shows your ignorance. I don't care how good your are at TT, you are misleading others.  I have always presented links to back up what I say, you have not.



Ok, dude... Whatever floats your boat.  Smile

Who cares about the truth right?  So why do I need to prove anything to you?  I don't and I won't.  I think your opinions need backup a lot more than mine, lol.  "Links" as proofs... LOL  My proof are my experience and credentials I earned with Chinese officials, coaches and players over the years.  And it does not hurt that I speak/write fluent Chinese, and organize/run big tournaments at one of the largest full-time table tennis training centers in North America.  What's yours except questioning whatever that did not pass your "smell" test?  It's really funny when any poster can be a real expert on any subject on the internet, after some Googling. 

So to you, it's "I" who's misleading the readers here?  LOL




Edited by roundrobin - 02/08/2012 at 3:31am
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funny about people here claiming to be experts in strokes when they can't even do basic loop properly how much more do advance loops strokes. a lot of people here lack the experience and even the skills to do basic strokes yet they talk like they play like 2000+ rating players. the moment they are asked to show their strokes in a video they immediately shy away or change the topic 
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a word of advice to people here. do not read everything you read here especially if it comes from a person who can't even do basic strokes correctly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 3:38am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

@roundrobin, what rubber have the Chinese produced that is better than T05?
The ESN rubbers are made in Germany so that limits your selection.
The Chinese athletes are better because they have better training and better financial support.  Here the good athletes are distracted by sports that pay more money.

I wonder how many of those chinese players are multi millionaires.  They must have to give a lot of their prize money back to the state that sponsored them. What proof do you have that the Chinese have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on TT research?  Where is the return on investment?  Prestige?  Who cares?

I am not the one that believe in TT mysticism. I can justify my positions with links to back me up. The fact that you challenge me without anything to back your statement up shows your ignorance. I don't care how good your are at TT, you are misleading others.  I have always presented links to back up what I say, you have not.

@dingyibvs, at what rotation rate do you think you need to close or cover the ball? If the paddle is being rotated before the contact then then then rate of angle change will affect where the ball goes depending on if the ball hits the paddle a millisecond early or late.   Provide data or an example.

@richrf,  I would never blindly listen to anybody.  If the coach tells me something that doesn't make sense I would get a new coach. I would not waste my time or money.

@RankAmateur,  I have taken the heat of you. I can defend myself no problem and again I say question everything.



You're kidding right?  Those Chinese players GET money from the government for winning tournaments, they're treated like stars because, well, they ARE stars in China.  They get advertisement dollars, sponsorship money, etc. like all other sports stars.  TT is a big sport in China, it is, after all, the national sport(i.e. Guo Qiu).  There is enough money for both commercial and prestige reasons to invest heavily in studying.

As for the rotations and whatnot of the paddle, what does it matter?  If I tell you it needs to be rotated at 37.142235 degrees per second, are you gonna reproduce that?  Experience tells me, along with many of us, that the changing racket angles and the follow through are important.  The onus is on you to provide the numbers to prove our experiences wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 6:32am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

How does one 'cover' the ball after hitting it?  Just how much do you think you can change the angle of the paddle during a millisecond or two of dwell time?  





 Absolutely correct, you can't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldenDragoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 6:56am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:


Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

How does one 'cover' the ball after hitting it?  Just how much do you think you can change the angle of the paddle during a millisecond or two of dwell time?  

 Absolutely correct, you can't.


You would be amazed how much difference it makes. I am hardly an expert but from developing my stroke and from a bit ej'ing I have a very good idea how much difference there is in extending the dwell time in your stroke. I would say that if you don't understand that you either use pips or use very basic strokes when u play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 7:13am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

How does one 'cover' the ball after hitting it?  Just how much do you think you can change the angle of the paddle during a millisecond or two of dwell time?  





 Absolutely correct, you can't.


Given your experience and expertise, (and you might have written about this elsewhere on the forum), is the follow-through a psychological thing just for developing consistency? or does it impact the physics of the stroke if you have more dwell time on your blade?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 7:26am
Would someone mind putting up some MSpaint files showing different stroke arcs? Including convex and concave?

I say arc instead of plane because it's clear that follow through does matter, and a stroke arc produces a shaper that acts on the ball differently than a plane...

I'm not sure best how to describe this so I thought I would ask for pics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krantz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 7:31am
Closing the angle during a stroke is a continuous movement and it is very pronounced in some of Chinese player’s strokes. Especially their peholder’s strokes’ starting positions are with distinctly open angles, while at the end of a follow through their rackets are just facing the floor. The heck – I could swear that I cover the ball myself in my loops.. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 7:36am
that is correct, i use that in my strokes in order for me to give it a greater amount of spin during loops. my coach taught me that and i was surprised 2 yrs ago when he told me that in order to put more spin on the ball when looping, you need to use your wrist more upon contact of the ball. aside from his loops i always see him use this when he loop drives the ball that is a bit short
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2012 at 8:13am
Originally posted by GoldenDragoon GoldenDragoon wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:


Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

How does one 'cover' the ball after hitting it?  Just how much do you think you can change the angle of the paddle during a millisecond or two of dwell time?  

 Absolutely correct, you can't.


You would be amazed how much difference it makes. I am hardly an expert but from developing my stroke and from a bit ej'ing I have a very good idea how much difference there is in extending the dwell time in your stroke. I would say that if you don't understand that you either use pips or use very basic strokes when u play.

 I'm considered advanced in both play and coaching, and even the longest dwell possible does not allow a change of contact angle during contact, what happens before and after is of course possible, but i think that many players misunderstand what is being said, the human body cannot possibly react quick enough for statements like this to hold true ''Turn your wrist when the ball makes contact with the rubber as to keep it in the foam.''  

Advanced players of all types use their wrist at point of contact, but this is just part of their stroke and timing, they can't react 'at contact'.
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