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The modern Chinese looping technique?
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Originally posted by Krantz Krantz wrote:

Closing the angle during a stroke is a continuous movement and it is very pronounced in some of Chinese player’s strokes. Especially their peholder’s strokes’ starting positions are with distinctly open angles, while at the end of a follow through their rackets are just facing the floor. The heck – I could swear that I cover the ball myself in my loops.. 

 Its called a concave loop action, and has been around for decades.
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Originally posted by GoldenDragoon GoldenDragoon wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:


Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

How does one 'cover' the ball after hitting it?  Just how much do you think you can change the angle of the paddle during a millisecond or two of dwell time?  

 Absolutely correct, you can't.


You would be amazed how much difference it makes. I am hardly an expert but from developing my stroke and from a bit ej'ing I have a very good idea how much difference there is in extending the dwell time in your stroke. I would say that if you don't understand that you either use pips or use very basic strokes when u play.
 27 sec here, you can see my wrist on contact;
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Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by Krantz Krantz wrote:

Closing the angle during a stroke is a continuous movement and it is very pronounced in some of Chinese player’s strokes. Especially their peholder’s strokes’ starting positions are with distinctly open angles, while at the end of a follow through their rackets are just facing the floor. The heck – I could swear that I cover the ball myself in my loops.. 

 Its called a concave loop action, and has been around for decades.

Except that I wasn't describing concave loop but closing the angle in forward motion. After seeing your video I wonder if you are aware that you are speaking 'prose' all your life Wink
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Always amazed at how deceptive your pick up lob from the floor is, it's just as good as any of the pros
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Taken from the 11s mark in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8JEwwA0Jl4

Any 'covering' is done way after the ball has left the bat.
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Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

@richrf,  I would never blindly listen to anybody.  If the coach tells me something that doesn't make sense I would get a new coach. I would not waste my time or money.

Hi,

The technique does seem to work, but a pre-requisite is that you have to have a very relaxed wrist, arm, and body. You have to be whipping through the ball. I would say that 99% of the players in my club are too stiff to do it. For me, I had to change my grip so that I was holding the racket with only my thumb and index finger. I have also been practicing too be very relaxed for some months now. 

My guess is that the combination of penetration into the sponge, plus the rotation of the body during impact is imparting the feeling of closing and giving the ball the extra type of spin. It is actually a fascinating technique that you might want to experiment with. But relaxation is absolutely key. 


Edited by richrf - 02/08/2012 at 10:38am
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FWIW, (not that it will affect anyone's opinion on this matter), there is a link to a discussion on Ma Long's Forehand based upon some images and description in a book:


I cut and pasted this part of the description:

"At the moment of ball impact, increase the power forward, close the upper arm and control the ball arcing trajectory."
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Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

funny about people here claiming to be experts in strokes when they can't even do basic loop properly how much more do advance loops strokes. a lot of people here lack the experience and even the skills to do basic strokes yet they talk like they play like 2000+ rating players. the moment they are asked to show their strokes in a video they immediately shy away or change the topic 
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

a word of advice to people here. do not read everything you read here especially if it comes from a person who can't even do basic strokes correctly

TOTAL BS! I'm rated 843 usatt(I upset 1000 usatt players regularly). But, people say my strokes are 2400+ usatt. If you saw a video of me, you would think I'm Ma Long in disguise.
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Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

FWIW, (not that it will affect anyone's opinion on this matter), there is a link to a discussion on Ma Long's Forehand based upon some images and description in a book:


I cut and pasted this part of the description:

"At the moment of ball impact, increase the power forward, close the upper arm and control the ball arcing trajectory."



Covering the racket angle after impact is done to ensure the ball have received maximum acceleration from the stroke.  In addition, because of the pronounced added wrist snap at contact required in extended-arm Chinese looping techniques, the act of closing the racket angle after contact is necessary to finish the wrist motion in a natural way to ensure recovery.





Edited by roundrobin - 02/08/2012 at 11:46am
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Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

 

Covering the racket angle after impact is done to ensure the ball have received maximum acceleration from the stroke.  In addition, because of the pronounced added wrist snap at contact required in extended-arm Chinese looping techniques, the act of closing the racket angle after contact is necessary to finish the wrist motion in a natural way to ensure recovery.


Thanks for the additional analysis. 

For the millionth time I watched the slo-mo of JO Waldner and it sure seems to confirm what you are saying:


The forearm is definitely rotating and the wrist is snapping through the ball. 

However, I was never able to execute this stroke until I began holding the racket with just my thumb and index finger and had my arm and body very relaxing. Trying to force the rotation with muscle effort just didn't work for me. It has to be a more effortless swing beginning with the hips and waist. 


Edited by richrf - 02/08/2012 at 12:00pm
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Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:


TOTAL BS! I'm rated 843 usatt(I upset 1000 usatt players regularly). But, people say my strokes are 2400+ usatt. If you saw a video of me, you would think I'm Ma Long in disguise.


I wanna see that video!

Tell you what, I've been playing table tennis--as opposed to once every 5 years play a little ping pong at the rec, which in my opinion, doesn't count--for 3 months.

 If you post a video of your "Ma Long in disguise" technique, I'll post a video of my home grown, learned to play against my 9 and 11 year old boys technique.  We can set up a poll and real TT players here can vote on who's technique inspires the most laughter.  Probably they'll laugh hard at both of us.


Edited by RankAmateur - 02/08/2012 at 2:42pm
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people laugh at me all the time . sometimes they say my loops are beautiful but then i tell them that they look nice but don't have any bite. 

i consider my stroke flashy and not functional....
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Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

people laugh at me all the time . sometimes they say my loops are beautiful but then i tell them that they look nice but don't have any bite. 

i consider my stroke flashy and not functional....


Golf is all I know, just now starting to learn table tennis 

Arnold Palmer = utilitarian, ugly, non-flashy - Immortal, seven major championships, top 5 all time in tour wins

Sergio Garcia = Flashy, beautiful swing, incredible late release - No major championships, huge disappointment

It's not how it looks, it's where the ball ends up.  I suppose it's the same golf or table tennis.

 Is your ugly technique effective?  Is it repeatable and controllable?  Does it create reasonable velocity and spin and place the ball in the right spot when you want it to?  (by the way, the exact same things can be said for golf or table tennis or a lot of other sports) 

If the above are so, the technique works, doesn't matter, I can't imagine, if you make the ugliest-looking motion ever to get there.




Edited by RankAmateur - 02/08/2012 at 3:41pm
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I don't think the effectiveness of the snapping of the wrist has anything to do with changing the racket angle during the millisecond of dwell time. It's all about brushing speed.

Try this: keep your arm still and snap your wrist forward as fast as you can. Now keep your wrist locked and swing your arm as fast as you can. Now imagine both those speeds added together. That's where your extra spin is coming from.

If it helps you to think of it as closing your racket during the dwell, then by all means continue, but what's really happening is you are snapping your wrist faster and getting more brushing speed.
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Originally posted by RankAmateur RankAmateur wrote:

Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

people laugh at me all the time . sometimes they say my loops are beautiful but then i tell them that they look nice but don't have any bite. 

i consider my stroke flashy and not functional....


Golf is all I know, just now starting to learn table tennis 

Arnold Palmer = utilitarian, ugly, non-flashy - Immortal, seven major championships, top 5 all time in tour wins

Sergio Garcia = Flashy, beautiful swing, incredible late release - No major championships, huge disappointment

It's not how it looks, it's where the ball ends up.  I suppose it's the same golf or table tennis.

 Is your ugly technique effective?  Is it repeatable and controllable?  Does it create reasonable velocity and spin and place the ball in the right spot when you want it to?  (by the way, the exact same things can be said for golf or table tennis or a lot of other sports) 

If the above are so, the technique works, doesn't matter, I can't imagine, if you make the ugliest-looking motion ever to get there.


 
Given that Sergio Garcia is better than 99.9% of all the other people who have ever picked up a golf club (to be conservative) and has even used a belly putter, this is not a fair way to put things.
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Some of us need to be a bit more observant re fh mechanics.
Of course its nonsense to try to change racket angle during contact.
The explanation for the closing of the racket angle is that the player has transferred his weight to the front foot. Once this foot is not moving forward the forward momentum of the stroke is translated to torso rotation and the non playing shoulder dipping until recovery starts. As somebody said on the forum recently the top players are using ordinary fh technique- its the players themselves who are extrordinary
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Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

Always amazed at how deceptive your pick up lob from the floor is, it's just as good as any of the pros

Thanks for the observation.
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Originally posted by Krantz Krantz wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by Krantz Krantz wrote:

Closing the angle during a stroke is a continuous movement and it is very pronounced in some of Chinese player’s strokes. Especially their peholder’s strokes’ starting positions are with distinctly open angles, while at the end of a follow through their rackets are just facing the floor. The heck – I could swear that I cover the ball myself in my loops.. 

 Its called a concave loop action, and has been around for decades.

Except that I wasn't describing concave loop but closing the angle in forward motion.

 Same thing really.
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agree with APW
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APW, your stroke is heck a lot like ZJK's, very fluid with both FH, BH, and transitions.  You may not be able to put as much leg and body into your shots like when you probably did when you were younger, but your feel for the game is still top notch and you can still generate more than enough power to beat very high level players.  And of course, your consistency is just amazing.  Kudos to you man!

For the others, check out this video of Ma Long training:

You can clearly see him beginning to open the racket upon contact.  The point is not that it's the "best" way to loop/drive, it's that all of these strokes are useful and the good players use all of them.  Check out APW's video for example, note the point at the 18 second mark.  You see him finishing the point with a stroke very much like Ma Long's, just with less backswing and follow through.  Similarly for the point beginning at the 32 and 40 second marks.  The point at 4:28, you can see him closing the racket on the drive.  That's what those who have a really good feel for the game do, they use different strokes for different situations, and they do so naturally.
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Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

APW, your stroke is heck a lot like ZJK's, very fluid with both FH, BH, and transitions.  You may not be able to put as much leg and body into your shots like when you probably did when you were younger, but your feel for the game is still top notch and you can still generate more than enough power to beat very high level players.  And of course, your consistency is just amazing.  Kudos to you man!

For the others, check out this video of Ma Long training:

You can clearly see him beginning to open the racket upon contact.  The point is not that it's the "best" way to loop/drive, it's that all of these strokes are useful and the good players use all of them.  Check out APW's video for example, note the point at the 18 second mark.  You see him finishing the point with a stroke very much like Ma Long's, just with less backswing and follow through.  Similarly for the point beginning at the 32 and 40 second marks.  The point at 4:28, you can see him closing the racket on the drive.  That's what those who have a really good feel for the game do, they use different strokes for different situations, and they do so naturally.
This is what I was waiting for someone to say and this is why alot of "guides" get people stuck.  Most of the guides only handle certain situations but alot of people read the titles and think... "so thats what I got to do all the time on all my FH's."  Next day you see the person trying to loop everything the same way completely disregarding the actual situation and adapting to it.  For example they might get a ball that may call for a simple high percentage counterhit return but now you'll see them looping the ball off the table for no reason.
 
Sure the top players may use a similar stroke to the guide in some situations, but they will use other strokes based on other situations.  The important point is to know what to use at the right time and more importantly be in position to use it in terms of footwork/recovery.
 
And for those questioning RR's experience/knowledge... he probably has more than 95% of the people on this forum.  The man is VERY respected and well known in the So Cal TT scene and probably has dealt with the CNT more than anyone on the forum.  Instead of bashing him with theoretical thoughts, you might want to listen to the guy.  Same for APW and his knowledge/experience.
 
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Nice reading Rack, and actually so pertinent. Myself and RR disagree on so many things, but agree on so many too, so many that if anyone has any sense, they just might glean some knowledge from us, for free too.
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Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:


You can clearly see him beginning to open the racket upon contact. 
 
Dingyibvs,
 
Now folks will really be confused. First it was closing the racket at contact, now it's opening it.
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Originally posted by RankAmateur RankAmateur wrote:

Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

people laugh at me all the time . sometimes they say my loops are beautiful but then i tell them that they look nice but don't have any bite. 

i consider my stroke flashy and not functional....


Golf is all I know, just now starting to learn table tennis 

Arnold Palmer = utilitarian, ugly, non-flashy - Immortal, seven major championships, top 5 all time in tour wins

Sergio Garcia = Flashy, beautiful swing, incredible late release - No major championships, huge disappointment

It's not how it looks, it's where the ball ends up.  I suppose it's the same golf or table tennis.

 Is your ugly technique effective?  Is it repeatable and controllable?  Does it create reasonable velocity and spin and place the ball in the right spot when you want it to?  (by the way, the exact same things can be said for golf or table tennis or a lot of other sports) 

If the above are so, the technique works, doesn't matter, I can't imagine, if you make the ugliest-looking motion ever to get there.



Not so fast haha – I think that there is a really nice chance that some people’s body’s motions look esthetically pleasing to us BECAUSE they’re effective, namely: fast, balanced, coordinated, powerful etc. Conversely, if a motion look ugly it’s just because it’s ineffective in most occasions.
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Generally, looks like we have another miss: Chinese looping isn’t about closing rackets angle either (which of course doesn't even happen, it's just an illusion resulting from players body motion). I think that we could at least agree that "Chinese loop" is a loop performed by Chinese player, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
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Its just that for us, there is no 'holy Grail' 
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I'm not sure what the discussion is all about, it's useful to "think" of closing the racket angle at contact as a coaching metaphor, but closing the racket angle probably relies on timing more than actually reacting to the ball contact. These 2 are not mutually exclusive!


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the problem is apw46 has to drop some weight if he wants to win against more agile players. the knowledge is there the lack of movement is missing. good player! as for strokes execution? not

Edited by xander7803 - 02/08/2012 at 10:22pm
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APW46 strokes remind me a bit of those of Wang Tao and Ma Wen Ge.
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Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Hogwash.  The Chinese government already spent hundreds of millions of dollars in table tennis research and training in the past ten years alone.

But how much of that is spent on research?  This is key.  I know that they support their TT players and we don't.  


Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Believe me, they are really not as dumb as you think when it comes to sport science... smiley2.gif  (Hint:  

And what do the Chinese have to contribute?  The non-sense about covering balls? So far most agree with me.  If I go to the ITTF website and look for technical articles from the Chinese?  Will I find a pdf like the one Igorponger posted a while ago?  Most are from Europe.


Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Which country won the most gold medals at the last Olympics?)

We don't support sports like other countries do.


Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

The funniest part is when they are genuinely willing to share their cumulative knowledge with the West,

Show me.


Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

 they are treated as b.s. "mysticism" by people like you.

I question everything.  I can do quick calculations to verify if what I am told makes sense.  I do it all the time as part of my business.

 

Now you explain to me the benefit of changing the angle of the paddle during the swing.  Most people agree with me that you can't do it after sensing the contact.  See my calculations below if you are simply rotating the blade during the swing.


Quote

Sorry to be blunt... Sometimes is better to shut up and learn from the best.

Learn what, from whom? I really want to know.

I have provided much more good information that you have on the forum.

I know that I have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because I use an 'in your face' approach but I have seen the tone of the forum changing slowly.  Terms like coefficient of restitution are understood now.

 

@Yogi.   I can loop very well.  I can loop balls that will skip off the table low below your paddle or bounce high off your paddle if you manage to get your paddle in front of the ball.


I would love to have a 3D accelerometer.    The sensor weighs only 30gm so it would be about the same weight of a sheet of rubber.  I would remove the BH rubber and mount the 3D accelerometer on the BH side of the blade.  I could record angles and positions every 1/4 millisecond during a swing.   It would answer so many questions.  The cost is about $5000-$6000


I would be able to detect when the ball hits the paddle and how long the ball is in contact with the paddle.


I would love to have a high speed camera.  They cost about $100,000 for 10,000 frames per second.   Lighting would cost more.    There would be other things that cost money like making a motion platform that could move up to 20 m/s to simulate the speed of the blade.   I have already have a Newgy  but I would need a two wheel robot. 


There would be no doubt left.


I think $150K would do it for the equipment.   I don't need hundreds of millions of dollars but then there is paying for time.


About closing or opening the paddle during the stroke.   If the paddle angle changes 20 degree over the time of a stroke of 100 ms then the angle of the paddle will change about 0.2 degrees per millisecond.   0.2 degree around a 40mm ball with a 20mm radius is only  0.07mm.   So 0.07mm per millisecond is 7mm per second or 0.007m/s  speed.  That is insignificant to a paddle speed of 10 m/s.


Also, in the series of the pictures above the angle of the paddle is not changing 20 degrees so the effect would be even less.
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