|
|
|
The modern Chinese looping technique? |
Post Reply 
|
Page <1234> |
| Author | |||
richrf 
Gold Member 
Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Posted: 02/09/2012 at 1:36am |
||
|
This is about as clear and as slow of the covering technique that I have seen. Comments are welcome.
Edited by richrf - 02/09/2012 at 1:40am |
|||
 |
|||
| Sponsored Links | |||
|
|||
|
racquetsforsale
Gold Member
Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 2:14am |
||
|
Rich,
The point of contention has been when LOOPING whether "covering the ball" happens during contact, with the ball still touching the rubber, or after the ball has already parted with the rubber. Some state that one hits the ball into the sponge first and then brush the ball by closing the paddle face. This implies the ball remains in contact with the rubber during the hit and the brush. The video shows the FH counter stroke. In this instance, it clearly shows WH's version of "covering the ball" occuring only AFTER the ball has already left the rubber. The movement of the wrist is a result of relaxation going into the followthrough. In light of this, the topic of discussion should shift to whether the wrist movement after contact is essential to producing a correct contact. Some believe it does while others do not. Concentrating on covering the ball while not knowing or ignoring what really happens at contact is not beneficial towards making progress. If you want to develop a good loop, master countering and brush looping first, any loop except the hook and fade will fall in between the two.
Edited by racquetsforsale - 02/09/2012 at 2:15am |
|||
|
|||
|
racquetsforsale
Gold Member
Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 2:18am |
||
|
While we're on this topic, check out this channel:http://www.youtube.com/user/777Zoomer#g/u
Handful of instructional videos, each over an hour long. Good one of KLH and another of a Chinese woman with a most awesome loop drive. When watching, pay attention to the relationship between paddle angle and swing angle from the horizontal. Note how they're different for brush looping and loop driving. Not each angle by itself, but the relationship between the two.
Edited by racquetsforsale - 02/09/2012 at 2:22am |
|||
|
|||
|
richrf
Gold Member
Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 2:23am |
||
Thank you for sharing with me your insights.
|
|||
|
|||
|
gigantes
Member 
Joined: 01/01/2012 Location: Cleveland, OH Status: Offline Points: 19 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 2:27am |
||
|
interesting concept... thread... discussions.
when i started playing the game again a year and a half ago, i decided to throw away my old johnny huang-style shortpip FH and replace it with a proper loop using inverted. namely under the guidance of a chinese coach in the area, level about 2200. his aim was for me to brush the ball at 11 o'clock, but i quickly discovered that the most reliable way to do so was to stroke in a concave arc, very much like what i'm reading about in the topic subject. as a result, i'm naturally a little slower to the ball compared to my peers, who tend to use drives or compact euro-style loops. but this is offset by the large number of errors the stroke produces in my opponents, who are constantly hitting off the table. as a result, i keep trying to improve my speed and technique for this loop, but also try to slowly work on my basic drive and 'michael maze-style' loop in order to fill in all the blanks, sort of in parallel with the way i saw the discussion turning in this thread. current equipment is a balsa-glass blade with gambler outlaw on the FH, both of which i expect to adjust (replace) as i grow in this process... |
|||
|
|||
|
richrf
Gold Member
Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 2:36am |
||
Nice videos. Thank you.
|
|||
|
|||
|
APW46
Assistant Moderator 
Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 3:32am |
||
I win plenty against 'more agile players' thanks.
|
|||
|
The Older I get, The better I was.
|
|||
|
|||
|
chronos
Gold Member
Joined: 02/27/2007 Status: Offline Points: 1721 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 3:54am |
||
|
Why does any thread in the general neighborhood of "chinese technique" always turn into such a clusterf--k? Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
|
|||
|
|||
|
Baal
Forum Moderator 
Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 5:06am |
||
|
This is just my opinion, but I think none of this stuff about how you move your arm (racket angle, "covering the ball", etc.) matters much compared to getting your hips to turn when looping.
|
|||
|
|||
|
RankAmateur
Super Member 
Joined: 09/28/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 168 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 9:05am |
||
I'd say you're right regarding 99.9% being conservative. Almost certainly you could make it 99.99999% (one in ten million is probably about accurate for a perennial world top 10 like Sergio). But, given the rarified atmosphere of top one hundred thousandth of one percent of players, I think few who've ever reached the level of expert in golf (and I used to be one) would disagree with my statement. Sergio was expected to have won a lot more than a handful of tournaments on the PGA tour by his early 30s and zero majors. He's been one of the biggest busts in superstar golf history. He may yet set this aright and become another Mickelson-esque late bloomer, but to this point in his career, I stand by my statement as eminently fair. Garcia would probably, if he spoke in frankness, agree with it. |
|||
|
|||
|
RankAmateur
Super Member
Joined: 09/28/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 168 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 9:13am |
||
Having read every post here to see what treatment of the "Chinese technique" was so horrific as to deserve such an astonishingly vulgar phrase from you, and found most posts perfectly innocuous and a few, like mine, mildly skeptical or with only standard critique, I'm genuinely at a loss to comprehend your sentiment. Perhaps something else going on in your psyche of which I'm not aware. Sorry if my post might have contributed to triggering it. |
|||
|
|||
|
RankAmateur
Super Member
Joined: 09/28/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 168 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 9:25am |
||
I agree with your statement in general, but not as an absolute maxim. Some of the best athletes use "ugly" motions. Hack Wilson had one of the least aesthetic swings in the history of the major leagues--and hit nearly 200 RBI one year. Aesthetic does not ALWAYS equal effective, but granted, it does more often than ugly. Edited by RankAmateur - 02/09/2012 at 9:26am |
|||
|
|||
|
chronos
Gold Member
Joined: 02/27/2007 Status: Offline Points: 1721 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 10:28am |
||
Sorry guys, lots of interesting posts here. I was reacting to the APW bashing, APW can handle himself just fine but can we make a dedicated topic for that and keep it off this thread?  Actually, really sorry if that came across too harshly, easy to see how it would reading it now - it was a late night. Don't mind me; keep the good posts coming. Edited by chronos - 02/09/2012 at 10:29am |
|||
|
|||
|
RankAmateur
Super Member
Joined: 09/28/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 168 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 10:44am |
||
Fair enough, referring to someone's physical attributes (if that's the post to which you refer, by Xander) is a gratuitous swipe. Agreed. And if my comments were part of what upset you and were taken as anti-Chinese (person, as opposed to government, of which I'm no fan at all), then I apologize, they certainly weren't meant as such and I have no such bias against the people of that nation, at least of which I'm aware. China's best in the world at TT, can't be denied, and I'm a rank amateur. |
|||
|
|||
|
roundrobin
Premier Member 
Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 2:11pm |
||
LOTS of top training books, journals, magazines, Chinese national team players and coaches personal dairy were/are published by the Chinese over the years. Look them up. You don't expect the Chinese to translate them to English for you, do you? Funny how the Western countries always tried to impose their culture upon the lands and people they "conquered" (Hong Kong, Taiwan, Vietnam anyone?), but things are changing slowly. Learn some Chinese or hire someone who does, if you even care to seriously learn table tennis from them. It will take a bit of work from you, but I promise what you'll find is the real deal, EVERYTHING you want to know about their research and training. Most Chinese are terrible at English, but then most people in America and Europe can't even read a single word of Mandarin, and they don't care to. Soon or later they will as the balance of power is shifting.I have yet to sense an ounce of respect from you (Mr. "I question everything"), so I won't bother replying to you anymore... A complete waste of time. I have lots of kids and adults to coach. Out. Edited by roundrobin - 02/09/2012 at 2:38pm |
|||
|
|||
|
V-Griper
Silver Member 
Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 2:29pm |
||
|
The pronation of the wrist/arm occurs after the ball is struck and is just a follow through motion. Mainly the result of a slight extension/flexion of the wrist prior to ball contact. I am solidly in agreement that impulse time is too short for any angle change of the blade face to have a significant effect on the ball. Think about a how some basement/rec players roll the paddle over the ball trying to get more spin. When you tell them this has no effect they ignore you and keep doing it because it feels intuitive to do it that way.To me it is about establishing the paddle angle and the swing plane.
However I do think this motion allows for micro adjustment of paddle angle just before the ball is struck. As the paddle moves from an open presentation to closed presentation, a slight timing adjustment changes the blade angle at ball contact. If you hit the ball in the early part of the rotation(blade face is more open) you get more speed than spin(assuming a constant swing speed and swing plane). If you hit the ball in the latter part of the rotation(blade face is more closed) you get more spin. Flexion and rotation of the wrist add a little bit of power. Needless to say the timing adjustment for this pretty small, but it could explain why it "feels" as if the motion effects the ball. The most interesting part of the "Chinese technique" is the relative arm extension. The "straight arm loop". I have been exploring this from the perspective of angular momentum. The best analogy I can come up with, and I think we are all familiar with, is the classic ice skater model. If an ice skater starts to spin with arms and legs extended at a given speed and then retracts their limbs angular momentum is conserved, and the skater starts to spin faster. So now imagine two ice skaters playing TT . They start spinning at the same speed. ice skater A keeps their arm extended while spinning. Skater B retracts their arm by half. Which one hits the ball harder? They both hit the ball with the same amount of energy. Here is where it gets interesting. If you hold ball velocity constant, say 5m/s, a bent arm looper has to rotate faster in order hit the ball at that velocity. In contrast a strait arm looper actually swings slower to achieve the same ball velocity. Once you reach the maximum rotation a given player can do, the straighter their arm the faster the ball will go. Actually since their is spin to consider it is better to think in terms of maximum kinetic energy at ball contact. Another factor is stability. The straighter the arm the more stable the swing is. On the other hand the shorter the arm the faster you can rotate. Now to playing style. When I look at the Chinese players I see a wider variation in arm extension than is evident in Euro players. Which means, to me, they get more utility out of their strokes. Edited by V-Griper - 02/10/2012 at 3:47pm |
|||
|
|||
|
Baal
Forum Moderator
Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/09/2012 at 2:56pm |
||
Actually, they have a degree program in at least one of the physical education universities in China were people can major in theory and practice of table tennis. I took a lesson in Beijing from a guy who was doing that. He was from someplace not close to Beijing, under 2500 I would guess. He had stopped training hard as a player at least 6 years earlier (when he was about 16 or 17). But he was studying hard and hoped to eventually be a province team coach somewhere. He actually had an ad on a web page offering private lessons and my wife found it for me. This guy would have been more useful to me if we could have communicated a bit more, but we were in China, so that was my fault, not his. To suggest that Chinese do not write technical articles on the subject is about as wrong as it is possible to be about anything. This was back in 2008 (speed glue days). I remember clearly one of my proudest moments in table tennis like it was yesterday. This guy showed up at the club (actually in the basment of a Hotel, but a great place to play). He was quite obviously not in the best of moods knowing he was going to be giving a lesson to some American idiot who undoubtedly was hopeless, when he should have been studying. We start hitting, after two balls, he stops gives me a wide-eyed look, then smiles and says "Oh. Please excuse me". Then he goes over to the bench, takes out a bottle of some nasty Haifu speed glue--smelled like jet plane fuel--and very carefully re-glued his Hurricane rubber. Then he says, OK, now play". We had fun. I just wish I could have talked to him in more detail, and unfortunately my wife was shopping and couldn't translate for me. |
|||
|
|||
|
chronos
Gold Member
Joined: 02/27/2007 Status: Offline Points: 1721 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 12:00am |
||
|
"
I question everything. I can do quick calculations to verify if what I am told makes sense. I do it all the time as part of my business.
Now you explain to me the benefit of changing the angle of the paddle during the swing. Most people agree with me that you can't do it after sensing the contact. See my calculations below if you are simply rotating the blade during the swing." There seem to be some opposing camps in this post. APW, you've already acknowledged that the "concave loop" has been around for a while, and thus that at a high level, the technique of adjusting paddle angle on contact is beneficial. So what's been described in these articles is actually beneficial if mastered? Edited by chronos - 02/10/2012 at 12:01am |
|||
|
|||
|
richrf
Gold Member
Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 12:28am |
||
|
An interesting article discussing a similar controversy in the tennis world:
Pronation, has been used by top tennis players for decades in increase the speed and spin of serves and is pretty much an integral aspect of the modern forehand that is used my every top tennis player. The discussion of pronation starts towards the end of this article and concludes with:
THE LOGIC Now, let me ask you, is the racket open at contact? No, it's vertical. Why doesn't the racket face open up at contact if the hand opens to begin with when placing the racket vertically against the ball? Because the hand stops that movement prior to contact. Is the racket face open then after contact? No, it rolls over. Why? Because at contact the hand is going in that direction, that roll-over direction. And that direction is called pronation. Or look at it this way. Which is easier. Will the supinating hand stop its upward rotation on a dime and at just the right angle and stay fixed that way when the ball tweaks the racket face, or will the hand reverse itself to counter both the upward momentum from supination and counter the tweaking of the racket face at contact (pronation)? Hey, just look at the follow through, that roll-over thingie. Why is this so hard for the tennis establishment to grasp? Beats me. |
|||
|
|||
|
racquetsforsale
Gold Member
Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 12:47am |
||
|
Chronos,
If you have time, read this:http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32941&PN=1.
|
|||
|
|||
|
racquetsforsale
Gold Member
Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 1:22am |
||
Rich, I'm familiar with the source of your excerpt. The movements involved in the modern tennis FH is more complicated than that of the TT FH. Except for very high FHs on some occasions, the racket face typically starts out closed --- FH side facing the court. The perceived "opening up of the racket face" (because it starts out closed and then becomes more or less perpendicular at contact) is achieved by a combination of the arm moving away from the plane of the upper torso (getting the elbow in front of the plane) and pivoting the arm upwards and forwards from the shoulder joint in a somewhat pendulum motion. Picture the bowling motion. In the backswing, the palm faces the ground, but as the arm swivels forward, the palm more or less faces forward. Now instead of swinging just backwards and forward, swing to the side as well. While this is not exactly the motion employed in the tennis FH, it does illustrate how the palm and therefore racket face rights itself. Bottom line, one does not proactively supinate to open up the racket face. Pronation in the tennis FH is not so much for closing the racket face over the ball as it is for aligning the height of the racket head relative to the height of the arm and wrist at contact on high FHs and providing an additional source of racket head acceleration upwards and forwards. The entire racket moves in like manner to a windshield wiper. Imagine wiping a table with a windshield wiper motion, then imagine the table tilted upwards. If you ever come across slow motion footage of tennis FHs, be mindful that sometimes the player mish*ts the ball near the bottom of the racket frame and this action twists the racket face closed. It's a matter of causality. The windshield wiper finish is a product of motion before and through contact. Kids as they improve start doing it naturally. Adults, who on their 2nd or 3rd lesson are introduced to this motion or who read it in a magazine and then do nothing but focus on it, will never develop sound FH mechanics.
|
|||
|
|||
|
Imago
Premier Member
Joined: 07/19/2009 Location: Sofia Status: Offline Points: 5897 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 5:36am |
||
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Imago
Premier Member
Joined: 07/19/2009 Location: Sofia Status: Offline Points: 5897 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 7:03am |
||
Who is KLH?
|
|||
|
|||
|
APW46
Assistant Moderator
Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 7:22am |
||
I would have thought kong Ling Hui
 second to bottom clip playing Gatien. |
|||
|
The Older I get, The better I was.
|
|||
|
|||
|
richrf
Gold Member
Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 7:57am |
||
Hi, I believe the tennis motion that the author is discussing is essentially the same. Quote from the article: "Now, let me ask you, is the racket open at contact? No, it's vertical. Why doesn't the racket face open up at contact if the hand opens to begin with when placing the racket vertically against the ball? Because the hand stops that movement prior to contact. Is the racket face open then after contact? No, it rolls over. Why? Because at contact the hand is going in that direction, that roll-over direction. And that direction is called pronation." There are illustrations of this motion in the article. In this slow motion, you can observe Roger Federer rolling over the ball while breaking his wrist, not to dissimilar from the pronation action that is being discussed in this thread: Edited by richrf - 02/10/2012 at 8:38am |
|||
|
|||
|
RankAmateur
Super Member
Joined: 09/28/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 168 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 8:33am |
||
|
No! Not pronation and supination!
I thought those were just golf terms. Heard them over and over and over and over....ad astra, ad infinitum...in my former sport. I went throughit all in golf, that whole thing. Pronation and supination and innumerable thoughts getting into my head, freezing my muscles to the point of near paralysis--don't do it, folks. I swear, you'll get to the point where you'll be thinking about 18 swing thoughts per every stroke and no one will be able to hit the ball three inches! No please, noooooooo!  |
|||
|
|||
|
racquetsforsale
Gold Member
Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 12:13pm |
||
Rich, That video shows exactly the situation I described. It is a mis-hit that causes the racket head to twist that much. Actually, I have to add to my previous description that when the racket head reaches the lowest point in the swing, the forearm IS supinated with the wrist laid back. This motion is another way to open (yes, to open) and SET the racket face angle. More importantly, it establishes the forearm configuration that places the racket head below the wrist. BUT, once that racket angle is set and as the swing continues forward and upwards, there is NO supination. Here's a video of WH's BH that does show the paddle closing through contact. It's @ 0:11. The ball does not seem to be on the descent as it approaches his paddle. Perhaps this illustrates what happens if you do try to close the paddle through contact vs closing it after the ball has left as part of the followthrough. Although it can be considered a mish*t as well, meaning the ball would have left the paddle properly if he hadn't hit it near the bottom of the paddle. ???
Edited by racquetsforsale - 02/10/2012 at 12:21pm |
|||
|
|||
|
richrf
Gold Member
Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 12:55pm |
||
|
Here is a super slow motion of Federer's forehand;
|
|||
|
|||
|
racquetsforsale
Gold Member
Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 1:24pm |
||
|
Rich,
No mis-hit there. I see rolling over after the ball has left the strings, not during contact. But again, the motion is a product of a relaxed swing. I do it too, but I don't think about it or focus on it. It's part of my followthrough. It allows me to followthrough with the least tension in my arm. The problem here is the instant someone says you're SUPPOSED to pronate like that on the FH, then instead of letting pronation happen, people start to force it and make it happen, and that's when they run into problems and start to frame the ball. If the initial approach to the ball is correct, relaxation of the arm coupled with the release of the wrist will effect pronation, but most importantly, contact must be solid. |
|||
|
|||
|
richrf
Gold Member
Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02/10/2012 at 1:51pm |
||
|
Hi,
Yes, I agree that the motion must be very relaxed and natural. I remember Djokovic making a very big point of this in a training video. He then demonstrated how loose his arms and racket were while swinging. With this said, there are many possible motions. I believe there has to be some initial intention to train (build body memory) to rollover (for some athletes the motion may come very naturally without any training). After a while the rollover becomes natural and no longer needs any intention. So, following this: 1) I believe that the Chinese coach in the video that I posted was indeed asking the player to learn how to rollover. 2) It is possible that most TT players are not relaxed enough to learn to do perform this stroke correctly and ultimately naturally (me included). 3) However, when I do try to learn this stroke, there is definitely a difference sense of speed, spin, and control imparted upon the ball compared to a swing that simply moves in a single curved plane. Whether or not I will continue, depends upon my discussions with my coach. But whatever mine own experiences are, it makes sense for TT players who are not coached in this way, to note how Chinese coaches are coaching their younger players. Thanks much for your comments.
|
|||
|
|||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1234> |
Tweet
|
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |
Topic Options
racquetsforsale wrote:
. sometimes they say my loops are beautiful but then i tell them that they look nice but don't have any bite.