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STIGA VTT - Li Sun's Clinics

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    Posted: 09/30/2019 at 11:05am



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Edited by zeio - 09/30/2019 at 11:06am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2018 at 9:38am
wow, will go over to get the nuances of what was said.  thank you Zeio.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2018 at 4:05am
Translation added.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2018 at 1:05pm
Here.



Edited by zeio - 09/11/2018 at 1:43pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2018 at 10:30am
thanks Zeio, that video should help a lot.   Could you link the untranslated version here in the meanwhile?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2018 at 10:23am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Hi Zeio, do you feel that the above video deserve a new thread of its own?  I personally have no idea on how to hit first then spin and I suspect nor does many others.

I thought about that, but I feel the concepts presented are all interconnected. By keeping them together I hope to make it easier for people to get a better grasp of the whole picture.

As for hit-brush, focus on getting the ball across the table(hit) first and work on keeping it on the table(brush), as demonstrated by Li Sun in the another video. I will get that one translated some time later as it's long.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2018 at 8:32am
In tennis forums the expression « kinetic chain » is often mentioned to underline how to avoid loss of power during the stroke and maximize the energy input that translate into paddle speed. I like to see coaching as continuous support of that kinetic chain. It helps having fewer words to express a goal before developing the related chapters and moving parts that kick in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2018 at 7:26am
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Hi zeio,

Thank you for the subtitles in the videos! This is very interesting since lots of people, on a lower level, have difficulties with the concept of rotating the waist.

The way I understand the concept of flexion in the hip, this results more in an upwards movement while playing VH Topspin while the concept of rotating the waist gives a forward movement.

Could you explain how to generate a forward movement when using flexion of the hip?

Thank you!
Best regards

Glad to be of help.

That's right. To do what Li Sun does below, you need a combination of hip flexion/extension, internal/external rotation and abbduction/adduction of the hip, in order to produce both forward and upward movement. To keep yourself upright, your knees and ankles move accordingly as well. Li Sun refers to the entire motion as hip flexion probably because it contributes the most due to its range of motion, as can be seen in the super slomo of ML's forehand loop.





Edited by zeio - 09/11/2018 at 7:27am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjiex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 10:38pm
I'll check this video. ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 2:16pm
the video didn't say anything about how to execute hit and spin (and power)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 1:44pm
He didn't say anything about changing racket angle during ball contact, or even during the stroke, though. I think he's saying to avoid pure brushing strokes especially with the new plastic ball. I mean you can have a stroke going through (mostly) the centre of the ball while brushing it at the same time, right? That should be what he's advocating.

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

   I once advocated that on this forum and plenty of « high level » physicists and medical authorities told me that I was full of it because the nervous system is not a network fast enough to allow any change at such a short contact time. I was trying to promote the « borrow-just-enough-spin-from-speed-to-land-and-no-more » concept. My thought was that if the order to rotate forward the paddle at contact is sent before contact, execution is delayed and the result is a deeper sponge engagement followed by a better brush.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Hi Zeio, do you feel that the above video deserve a new thread of its own?  I personally have no idea on how to hit first then spin and I suspect nor does many others.


I thought Li Sun was saying to hit the first ball then spin the second, which doesn't seem to make sense. Then I watched the video and he actually said "hit 1st brush 2nd" in the same stroke.. He means you should first make sure a good contact going through the center of the ball (hit), and the brush is secondary.
I once advocated that on this forum and plenty of « high level » physicists and medical authorities told me that I was full of it because the nervous system is not a network fast enough to allow any change at such a short contact time. I was trying to promote the « borrow-just-enough-spin-from-speed-to-land-and-no-more » concept. My thought was that if the order to rotate forward the paddle at contact is sent before contact, execution is delayed and the result is a deeper sponge engagement followed by a better brush.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 10:58am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Hi Zeio, do you feel that the above video deserve a new thread of its own?  I personally have no idea on how to hit first then spin and I suspect nor does many others.


I thought Li Sun was saying to hit the first ball then spin the second, which doesn't seem to make sense. Then I watched the video and he actually said "hit 1st brush 2nd" in the same stroke.. He means you should first make sure a good contact going through the center of the ball (hit), and the brush is secondary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 9:35am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Hi Zeio, do you feel that the above video deserve a new thread of its own?  I personally have no idea on how to hit first then spin and I suspect nor does many others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 5:13am
Hi zeio,

Thank you for the subtitles in the videos! This is very interesting since lots of people, on a lower level, have difficulties with the concept of rotating the waist.

The way I understand the concept of flexion in the hip, this results more in an upwards movement while playing VH Topspin while the concept of rotating the waist gives a forward movement.

Could you explain how to generate a forward movement when using flexion of the hip?

Thank you!
Best regards
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 2:45am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 10:57am
It used to be common to stomp on a FH smash to emphasize the weight transfer. (Stomp left foot if right handed and vice versa).
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 9:12am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by ZhouZhekai ZhouZhekai wrote:

Can anyone enlighten me of the concept of stomping?


In one of Zeio's subtitles, it looks like stomping is synonymous with pushing off with the right-foot, for a right-hander. (In English that is not the case, of course)


The exact word used is "蹬". According to my dictionary, it means "腿、腳向腳底方向用力", literally "leg or foot uses force in the direction of the bottom of the foot" in English.

Now, stamp means "to thrust the foot forcibly downward", when used intransitively or "to bring the foot down onto (an object or surface) forcibly", transitively. I didn't choose "stomp" because it carries a connotation of anger.

"蹬" is often used in combination with another character, such as "蹬伸"(to stamp and extend), "蹬轉"(to stamp and turn), "蹬腿"(to stamp the leg, also used for leg press), "蹬腳"(to stamp the foot) etc.

In some parts of China, "跺" is used instead of "蹬". The former carries a connotation of anger, not unlike stamp vs stomp.

Whatever term you prefer, the idea is to transfer the weight in sync with the forward swing of the stroke.

Edited by zeio - 08/20/2018 at 9:14am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2018 at 11:26pm
Lol we can finally talk about hip extension Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by ZhouZhekai ZhouZhekai wrote:

Can anyone enlighten me of the concept of stomping?

In one of Zeio's subtitles, it looks like stomping is synonymous with pushing off with the right-foot, for a right-hander. (In English that is not the case, of course)


Edited by Ieyasu - 08/12/2018 at 8:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 8:13pm
"Just bump into it." So no more brushing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZhouZhekai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 5:25pm
Can anyone enlighten me of the concept of stomping?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 11:39am
Last year in Deaflympics my game was completely broken, because I had no a coach to explain me these things posted in these videos. Old style with adding tons of spin on the ball just gone far away.
It is just not effective.
Today is more possible to receive back injury looking to play old style (with more spin) than some success in the matches.
Often you have no time to react well, especially with balls Nittaku Premium 40+.

I felt myself physical disturbed a lot.
With Nittaku SHA 40+ my game was two or three ideas better than with Premium 40+.
Also rest of the balls DHS/DONIC/STIGA/BUTTRFLY  I never had the troubles that I have with Premium 40+.
These balls also go faster than usual and they are also harder than rest on the market.

The coach here is right, overall you have no time already to play old stylle table tennis and the new/younger, professional oriented players - they must play completely limited in movements if they want to be successful.

I am afraid we will never see again the beautiful table tennis from Waldner's Era.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 11:34am
Just putting my piggy bank here, in case folks want to show their appreciation.

Subbing takes a ton of time, effort and dedication!
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 11:00am
These are fabulous.  I particularly like: "Remember to 'eat' the ball"!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 10:49am
Great stuff again Zeio Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 9:48am
More Li Sun's clinics. Keeping them together for easier reference.





Edited by zeio - 08/12/2018 at 11:41am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pitigoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2018 at 5:19pm
I started today pushing the ground with the right foot when doing right hand FHs,
and keeping shoulders more parallel with the hips, and it feels right, except:

Sometimes I am fast or lucky enough to get to the ball behind the table and
above net level (also I'm short, think Koki Niwa). Here I feel trunk rotation is
still better in terms of recovering for the next shot versus the only
alternative I can think of for increasing my power: move my right foot way
in the back, and transfer my weight from the back leg to the front leg.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DistantStar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2018 at 10:14am
Translation for people who dont like to get too nerdy:

Xuxin FH - NO!

LSW FH - YES!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2018 at 3:18am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Great stuff zeio, as ever.  Many thanks for your efforts.

I attended a training day run by Andrew Rushton a few weeks back and he spent a lot of time emphasizing this.  In the past, we were coached to use as much waist rotation as possible, and to move the right leg (for right handers) waaaay back on FH strokes to allow for maximum weight transfer.

These days, it's counter productive.  The ball comes back far more often and you need to be ready for that - big waist rotation and a perpendicular stance impacts too much on recovery times.  He advocated a more neutral stance at all times on both wings and minimal use of the waist.  

He spent a fair time on bat position in the neutral stance as well to help with fast, close-in counters.

It's hard to break out of habits built up over decades of play...


Thanks, Andy.

Waist rotation has been a problematic term for a long time, if folks will check out the table below.

Cervical = Neck, Thoracic = Chest, Lumbar = Waist


The lumbar spine has the least range of motion. Upper body rotation is largely completed by the thoracic spine and hips. That's why I've always used trunk/torso rotation instead when writing on forums and subbing videos, such as this one, even if they actually meant waist rotation.

Still, trunk rotation is de-emphasized nowadays for reasons as you stated.


Wow....very informative indeed... I tried some shadow stroke practice with the suggestions and it seems to work better! Will try it on a real table next... Basically the shoulders should always be in line with the hips right to prevent any torsion at the lower back. It does make a lot of sense
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