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Fan Zhendong vs Liam Pitchford, Men's Singles Final, 2020 Qatar Open

Event: ITTF World Tour - 2020 Qatar Open
Location: Doha, Qatar  
Date: 2020-03-03 - 2020-03-08
Round: Men's Singles Final
Players: Fan Zhendong, Liam Pitchford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 8:59am
did anybody else notice there are no Stiga commercials before the ittv stream starts? on a Platinum event like the Qatar open, it's strange!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 9:11am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


Many *legendary* players *never* reach the top 5 so I am happy you have such a high standard for Kanak - Mizutani for example has only hit the WR of 4 once and I think Harimoto is barely there. Freitas I think peaked at 7. Maze peaked at 8. Gauzy and Niwa have never been there. Karakasevic was never even in the top 20. Neither was Bojan Tokic, and people will never tell you that those aren't world class players. Lack of power on the forehand is one aspect of the game, there are many good players with relatively less powerful forehands, the one that comes to mind for me is Lin Gaoyuan and another is Koki Niwa.   




In your opinion Freitas, Gauzy, Niwa, Karakasevic, Tokic, Harimoto are *legendary* players???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 9:18am
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


Many *legendary* players *never* reach the top 5 so I am happy you have such a high standard for Kanak - Mizutani for example has only hit the WR of 4 once and I think Harimoto is barely there. Freitas I think peaked at 7. Maze peaked at 8. Gauzy and Niwa have never been there. Karakasevic was never even in the top 20. Neither was Bojan Tokic, and people will never tell you that those aren't world class players. Lack of power on the forehand is one aspect of the game, there are many good players with relatively less powerful forehands, the one that comes to mind for me is Lin Gaoyuan and another is Koki Niwa.   




In your opinion Freitas, Gauzy, Niwa, Karakasevic, Tokic, Harimoto are *legendary* players???

I have no doubt about it. They are national champions of strong TT nations.  If you dispute specific players, I can find others to make the point.  Kreanga has a highest world ranking of 7. The point is that many players never see the top 5 or top 10.  Some great players see it once.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 9:31am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


Many *legendary* players *never* reach the top 5 so I am happy you have such a high standard for Kanak - Mizutani for example has only hit the WR of 4 once and I think Harimoto is barely there. Freitas I think peaked at 7. Maze peaked at 8. Gauzy and Niwa have never been there. Karakasevic was never even in the top 20. Neither was Bojan Tokic, and people will never tell you that those aren't world class players. Lack of power on the forehand is one aspect of the game, there are many good players with relatively less powerful forehands, the one that comes to mind for me is Lin Gaoyuan and another is Koki Niwa.   




In your opinion Freitas, Gauzy, Niwa, Karakasevic, Tokic, Harimoto are *legendary* players???


I have no doubt about it. They are national champions of strong TT nations.  If you dispute specific players, I can find others to make the point.  Kreanga has a highest world ranking of 7. The point is that many players never see the top 5 or top 10.  Some great players see it once.




I didn't say good player must be in top 5 but to be national champion for sure not enough to called *legendary* player. Right now Uda is national champion of Japan so you consider him as *legendary* player as well? :)
How about Truls? He is national champions of strong TT nation. Is he *legendary* player?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 9:54am
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


Many *legendary* players *never* reach the top 5 so I am happy you have such a high standard for Kanak - Mizutani for example has only hit the WR of 4 once and I think Harimoto is barely there. Freitas I think peaked at 7. Maze peaked at 8. Gauzy and Niwa have never been there. Karakasevic was never even in the top 20. Neither was Bojan Tokic, and people will never tell you that those aren't world class players. Lack of power on the forehand is one aspect of the game, there are many good players with relatively less powerful forehands, the one that comes to mind for me is Lin Gaoyuan and another is Koki Niwa.   




In your opinion Freitas, Gauzy, Niwa, Karakasevic, Tokic, Harimoto are *legendary* players???


I have no doubt about it. They are national champions of strong TT nations.  If you dispute specific players, I can find others to make the point.  Kreanga has a highest world ranking of 7. The point is that many players never see the top 5 or top 10.  Some great players see it once.




I didn't say good player must be in top 5 but to be national champion for sure not enough to called *legendary* player. Right now Uda is national champion of Japan so you consider him as *legendary* player as well? :)
How about Truls? He is national champions of strong TT nation. Is he *legendary* player?

Those players also have medals in at least one European or Asian championship of some sort.  It can be tiring to debate these things but the bottom line is that those players are idolized and respected by significant portions of TT players and in some cases are considered underachievers or just unlucky.  My main point is that many extremely strong players (and all those guys qualify) never make the top 5.  If you agree with that that is sufficient.  If you want to debate who is legendary or "extremely strong" we can do that forever.   Everyone had opinions including me and you.

Truls.os a 2 time WJTTC silver medalist.  Those don't grow on trees.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/08/2020 at 9:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 9:54am
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

I would bet my money on FZD and CM
you win your bet ( or not yet if you meant the finals)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 10:27am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Those players also have medals in at least one European or Asian championship of some sort.  It can be tiring to debate these things but the bottom line is that those players are idolized and respected by significant portions of TT players and in some cases are considered underachievers or just unlucky.  My main point is that many extremely strong players (and all those guys qualify) never make the top 5.  If you agree with that that is sufficient.  If you want to debate who is legendary or "extremely strong" we can do that forever.   Everyone had opinions including me and you.

Truls.os a 2 time WJTTC silver medalist.  Those don't grow on trees.





In beginning you used definition *legendary* player after you realize it was wrong you changed to "extremely strong". There is big different between legendary and extremely strong. You can call all top 100 players "extremely strong". But only few of them are *legendary* and to be *legendary* certainly not enough to be national champion. Doesn't matter how many times Truls was WJTTC silver medalist and national champion but even you don't call him *legendary* player because you know its not enough.




Edited by piligrim - 03/08/2020 at 10:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 11:06am
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Those players also have medals in at least one European or Asian championship of some sort.  It can be tiring to debate these things but the bottom line is that those players are idolized and respected by significant portions of TT players and in some cases are considered underachievers or just unlucky.  My main point is that many extremely strong players (and all those guys qualify) never make the top 5.  If you agree with that that is sufficient.  If you want to debate who is legendary or "extremely strong" we can do that forever.   Everyone had opinions including me and you.

Truls.os a 2 time WJTTC silver medalist.  Those don't grow on trees.





In beginning you used definition *legendary* player after you realize it was wrong you changed to "extremely strong". There is big different between legendary and extremely strong. You can call all top 100 players "extremely strong". But only few of them are *legendary* and to be *legendary* certainly not enough to be national champion. Doesn't matter how many times Truls was WJTTC silver medalist and national champion but even you don't call him *legendary* player because you know its not enough.



Truls is barely 18 and is still WJTTC eligible.  He was the national champion of Sweden at a young age not just any TT country.  For what he has achieved he is a legendary player.  If you disagree do what you like.  I have no problem considering him a legend. You are the one who does.  Probably the most disappointing player with that kind of background was Tristan Flore but injuries ruined his career.

My original point was that many great players (or legendary players) never make top 5.  "Legendary" has some degree of subjectivity so I gave a wide variety of players in case someone might agree with some and disagree with others.  You seem to have agreed with Maze since you didn't list him.  You got some reason didn't agree with Harimoto, when he is obviously a great player and was top 5. But in any case my point is that top 5 is a pretty hard standard.  Pretty much you only get there if you are the Asian, European, World, Olympics or Grand Final champ or do well at many tour events.  There are many great players with great careers who never got there.  Freitas was a two time runner up to Dima in European Champs and even won the top 16 one year.  Never made it to top 5.  Top 5 is really hard.  Even the modern legends of American TT never made it to top 5.  Falck hasn't .   I don't think Lee Sang Su has either.  Those are both WTTC medallists.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 11:38am
Petr Korbel was never top 5 for example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 11:49am
To get to Top 5 you should be as good as top chinese players. Does why Lee Sang Su, Freitas, Falck and others will never be in top 5

Harimoto in top 5 but 16 years old player can't be called legendary. Maybe 10-15 years more he will be legendary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Petr Korbel was never top 5 for example.

Crazy but he was never top 10 either.  And he did beat a bunch of Chinese players so that couldn't have been it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Petr Korbel was never top 5 for example.


Crazy but he was never top 10 either.  And he did beat a bunch of Chinese players so that couldn't have been it.



How many Word Tours he won?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

To get to Top 5 you should be as good as top chinese players. Does why Lee Sang Su, Freitas, Falck and others will never be in top 5

Harimoto in top 5 but 16 years old player can't be called legendary. Maybe 10-15 years more he will be legendary.

This is fine and your opinion.  Sometimes we can see when someone has done things that no one else has ever done and call him a legend for doing it.  Harimoto owns just about every age related ITTF record (youngest whatever you can think of).  If you want to wait another 20 years to realize that is legendary, it is your prerogative. 

Every player I listed has beaten at least one Chinese national team player at least once,  but if you were reading the discussion, the issue was saying that Kanak needs a good forehand to be top 5 when many good players will never be top 5 and that this is a ridiculously high standard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Petr Korbel was never top 5 for example.


Crazy but he was never top 10 either.  And he did beat a bunch of Chinese players so that couldn't have been it.



How many Word Tours he won?

I don't know.  Are you saying Korbel is not a legendary player?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

This is fine and your opinion. 



Of course. Everything written on this forum its someone's opinion. I hope you don't mean your opinion has more value then my? :)



Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Every player I listed has beaten at least one Chinese national team player at least once 



It should be on consistence basis. If it happen just once you know ...


Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

but if you were reading the discussion, the issue was saying that Kanak needs a good forehand to be top 5 when many good players will never be top 5 and that this is a ridiculously high standard.




Yes I read but I don't think good FH will help him to get top 5.
Current top 5: XU Xin, FAN Zhendong, MA Long, LIN Gaoyuan, HARIMOTO Tomokazu. I like Kanak but I don't think he will be ever as good as this guys

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Petr Korbel was never top 5 for example.


Crazy but he was never top 10 either.  And he did beat a bunch of Chinese players so that couldn't have been it.



How many Word Tours he won?


I don't know.  Are you saying Korbel is not a legendary player?




First we have to elaborate what player suppose to achieve to be considered as legendary. As you said before it's only my opinion but if player never win any World Tour, never been World Champion, no Olimpic Champion ... can he called legendary?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Petr Korbel was never top 5 for example.


Crazy but he was never top 10 either.  And he did beat a bunch of Chinese players so that couldn't have been it.



How many Word Tours he won?


I don't know.  Are you saying Korbel is not a legendary player?




First we have to elaborate what player suppose to achieve to be considered as legendary. As you said before it's only my opinion but if player never win any World Tour, never been World Champion, no Olimpic Champion ... can he called legendary?

Yes he can but like I said legendary is subjective.  Are you disagreeing with my original point that there are quite a few great players and I mean players who will be considered historically great who may never make the top 5?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Yes he can but like I said legendary is subjective.  Are you disagreeing with my original point that there are quite a few great players and I mean players who will be considered historically great who may never make the top 5?




They for sure great players, no doubt. I only disagree to call them legendary. In my opinion example of legendary players is: Boll, Jike, Ma Long, Samsonov, Waldner, Rosskopf ...
Freitas, Falck and others you mentioned are very good players but I can't put them is same line
I might be wrong. Just my 2 cents
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

I would bet my money on FZD and CM
you win your bet ( or not yet if you meant the finals)
now you won period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 12:48pm
didn't see any of Pitch's matches in this tournament but by the scores, he did fantastic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 1:59pm
if anyone thinks harimoto is not already legendary... 
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It is arguably to suggest Zhang Zhihe Tomokazu Harimoto is not as yet but possibly in the future if he can elevate his performance to be considered legendary for the fact that he has yet to repeatedly and consistently dominate the main most open field tournaments where other players of his winning record and performance ability (or above in many cases) are also in the same open competition. 

At present it is arguably unfortunate that he is as much noted for his vocal performance as his performance on the table. He is most definitely a fresh world elite talent especially given his age and past winning results from an even younger age. This is in whole if not mostly initially as a direct result of the skill and dedication of both parents being relatively high level Sichuan provincial players themselves and long before the Chinese birth name to naturalised current Japanese name change. Interestingly his younger sister is also very promising and again another very young talent well beyond her years. Japanese table tennis has massively benefited from their reliance on overseas talent as factually many of the top personal coaches and most better training partners originate from the usual dominant force in the game as not surprisingly if judging by latest results. Coaching and sparing partners are not to be forgotten about in achieving better performance results as many players globally now appreciative and trust in the techniques and use of black Chinese tacky rubber forehand!?

I wish the sport ever more success and as always may the best talent win irrespective of orgin and on a sad note I trust we can as a global caring community overcome potential world health and safety issues but importantly learn from what happened and why and never to repeat pass errors of judgement and acceptable living conditions or habits. Again not being judgmental or apportioning blame but we can all learn to be nice and all get on and therefore continue to ensure sport before it is cancelled or temporary banned for no fault of all the hard work and dedication of players and coaching teams.

Happy ping pong and peace out!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Yes he can but like I said legendary is subjective.  Are you disagreeing with my original point that there are quite a few great players and I mean players who will be considered historically great who may never make the top 5?




They for sure great players, no doubt. I only disagree to call them legendary. In my opinion example of legendary players is: Boll, Jike, Ma Long, Samsonov, Waldner, Rosskopf ...
Freitas, Falck and others you mentioned are very good players but I can't put them is same line
I might be wrong. Just my 2 cents

Wally Green and Tahl Leibovitz are legendary players. Freitas and Falck are not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2020 at 1:02am
That aside, was surprised how easily Chen Meng dispatched off Ito, I was expecting a much harder battle tbh... Seems like attacking Ito's FH hard paid lots of dividends! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2020 at 10:38am
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Yes he can but like I said legendary is subjective.  Are you disagreeing with my original point that there are quite a few great players and I mean players who will be considered historically great who may never make the top 5?




They for sure great players, no doubt. I only disagree to call them legendary. In my opinion example of legendary players is: Boll, Jike, Ma Long, Samsonov, Waldner, Rosskopf ...
Freitas, Falck and others you mentioned are very good players but I can't put them is same line
I might be wrong. Just my 2 cents

Wally Green and Tahl Leibovitz are legendary players. Freitas and Falck are not.
funny remark and has a ring of truth to it
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Fan Zhendong vs Liam Pitchford, Men's Singles Final, 2020 Qatar Open

Event: ITTF World Tour - 2020 Qatar Open
Location: Doha, Qatar  
Date: 2020-03-03 - 2020-03-08
Round: Men's Singles Final
Players: Fan Zhendong, Liam Pitchford

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