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    Posted: 02/15/2023 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Blahness-

Imo the effect of what BH grip is used is not really taken into account in your model. 

The more BH bias in the grip the less supination, and extension for that matter, is required and vise versa. It's more of mild pronate to mild supinate transition. 

Karakasevic actually has a slight FH bias grip that he does not switch out of when he hits his BH so in order to index his paddle to the right angle to contact the ball he has to index more supination than even an neutral grip would require. 

In contrast to FZ, which I think the 2nd vid is trying to copy, holds a BH biased grip on his BH but switches to neutral/mild FH biased grip on the FH, when he has time to switch. His BH has less supination and more of a short sharp pro/sup- flex/extend. Also, imo, the open paddle after ball contact(pronated end position) is more of reflexive habitual movement that facilitates a faster FH transition. I think of that follow through as more of a FZ quirk than a trained technique to be copied. It certainly could be a thing going forward though but for different reasons.

Most amateurs default/ed to a neutral grip so you get more supination. Also most older players started with neutral grip. Most younger players are going to some degree of BH biased. I'm manly referring to Jr's who are in some kind of development system as opposed to random. They are doing this either because of their coaching, observation of the top players or, more likely, a combination of both.

So I think what you perceiving is correct in that there is less supination in the modern BH but I think the ultimate cause is the gradual increased use of the BH biased grip which then requires less supination and more forearm extension. 

Anybody reading this can just go and conduct your own experiment. Start in the Karakasevic grip, then go to neutral and then go to say TH level BH bias and see how it effects your wrist and arm movements. 

 
Clear example of neutral grip vs BH biaed grip-




I wouldn't say Falck uses more supination than Harimoto, they both use it extensively. I think it's not just BH or FH biased grip, but also the depth of the grip - Harimoto definitely grips the racket much further up the handle compared to Falck who has a very loose grip. Falck also uses a lot of wrist extension/flexion (you can see the racket pointing more right compared to the hand instead of staying to the left of the hand) which is generally not the way the modern BH is played because it can hurt the wrist and the recovery time is slower (Falck can do this because he's tall af and he stands a lot farther away from the table). You can see clearly in Lin Yun Ju, Harimoto and most of the CNT that the racket never goes to the right of the hand in BH strokes - the hand is always rotated more than the racket relative to the body, meaning the wrist never goes into extension. It is intentional by design (Lin Yun Ju's coach Sun Hao Hong talked quite a bit about this) to promote more explosiveness - more wrist movement doesn't necessarily mean more spin, the ball only cares about the kind of contact you give it. Excessive wrist movement will cause more instability in the stroke and the power flowing from the body can get lost more easily. 

See comparison images here on the followthrough:

Falck:


Lin Yun Ju:



Edited by blahness - 02/15/2023 at 6:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2023 at 3:51pm
Blahness-

Imo the effect of what BH grip is used is not really taken into account in your model. 

The more BH bias in the grip the less supination, and extension for that matter, is required and vise versa. It's more of mild pronate to mild supinate transition. 

Karakasevic actually has a slight FH bias grip that he does not switch out of when he hits his BH so in order to index his paddle to the right angle to contact the ball he has to index more supination than even an neutral grip would require. 

In contrast to FZ, which I think the 2nd vid is trying to copy, holds a BH biased grip on his BH but switches to neutral/mild FH biased grip on the FH, when he has time to switch. His BH has less supination and more of a short sharp pro/sup- flex/extend. Also, imo, the open paddle after ball contact(pronated end position) is more of reflexive habitual movement that facilitates a faster FH transition. I think of that follow through as more of a FZ quirk than a trained technique to be copied. It certainly could be a thing going forward though but for different reasons.

Most amateurs default/ed to a neutral grip so you get more supination. Also most older players started with neutral grip. Most younger players are going to some degree of BH biased. I'm manly referring to Jr's who are in some kind of development system as opposed to random. They are doing this either because of their coaching, observation of the top players or, more likely, a combination of both.

So I think what you perceiving is correct in that there is less supination in the modern BH but I think the ultimate cause is the gradual increased use of the BH biased grip which then requires less supination and more forearm extension. 

Anybody reading this can just go and conduct your own experiment. Start in the Karakasevic grip, then go to neutral and then go to say TH level BH bias and see how it effects your wrist and arm movements. 

 
Clear example of neutral grip vs BH biaed grip-



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2022 at 5:11pm
Imo most amateurs would benefit from not using wrist and building up the knowledge/habit of using the body properly in all shots, and using the correct forearm movements. 

Wrist/supination/pronation is like extra icing on the cake once you have those fundamentals.... 

Hence my statement that most amateurs wouldn't benefit much from this knowledge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2022 at 11:21am
Good idea definitely Clap

Would be good to see.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2022 at 10:07am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Interesting concept of levels.... What's the level needed?  Top 100/150 in your country like the UK say or somewhere you can be precise. Ex top 20-50 player with knowledge of playing a  number of years or indepth Internet researcher trying to improve to somewhere near that level wanting to share ideas. It's definitely an interesting concept of levels needed to understand. 
IMHO The level needed to understand concepts is "anyone who is interested" :) .
It's just a matter of understanding not of a tt skill.

But if you want to test it - then you need to train.
Somebody will learn bit faster someone else bit slower.

What I could do from my side if anyone interested - to show how I am doing BH from sight of "my eyes" - I mean with GoPro on my head, with and without the ball, slow immitation and after that hits to the balls from robot.
It would clearly show all the moments with wrist motions in different planes and arm things :).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2022 at 6:35am
Interesting concept of levels.... What's the level needed?  Top 100/150 in your country like the UK say or somewhere you can be precise. Ex top 20-50 player with knowledge of playing a  number of years or indepth Internet researcher trying to improve to somewhere near that level wanting to share ideas. It's definitely an interesting concept of levels needed to understand. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?

It is the forearm supination (forearm rotating about its own axis)
Okay.  So what is the visible evidence of supination in the backhand on Karaksevic?  And what is the evidence of pronation of the forearm on example 1 in the video I shared previously?

I can show the visible evidence of wrist deviation on Fan's stroke if anyone wants to check it.

Just imitate the exact hand, elbow position along his trajectory and you'll see that his racket angle is more closed compared to what it should be had he not supinated. Sometimes he doesn't supinate on opening loops and it results in a much less spinny ball which opponents will dump in the net if they don't read it properly.

If this is the best you can do, we aren't going to agree on this, I can not backhands that show he is not supinating.


Ok you can say whatever you want to say and believe whatever you want to believe, it's a public forum.... Like what I said most amateurs have not reached a level where this actually matters. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?

It is the forearm supination (forearm rotating about its own axis)
Okay.  So what is the visible evidence of supination in the backhand on Karaksevic?  And what is the evidence of pronation of the forearm on example 1 in the video I shared previously?

I can show the visible evidence of wrist deviation on Fan's stroke if anyone wants to check it.

Just imitate the exact hand, elbow position along his trajectory and you'll see that his racket angle is more closed compared to what it should be had he not supinated. Sometimes he doesn't supinate on opening loops and it results in a much less spinny ball which opponents will dump in the net if they don't read it properly.

If this is the best you can do, we aren't going to agree on this, I can not backhands that show he is not supinating.

I also cannot hit forehand one in the video I linked to without supinating.



Edited by NextLevel - 12/23/2022 at 11:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?

It is the forearm supination (forearm rotating about its own axis)
Okay.  So what is the visible evidence of supination in the backhand on Karaksevic?  And what is the evidence of pronation of the forearm on example 1 in the video I shared previously?

I can show the visible evidence of wrist deviation on Fan's stroke if anyone wants to check it.

Just imitate the exact hand, elbow position along his trajectory and you'll see that his racket angle is more closed compared to what it should be had he not supinated. Sometimes he doesn't supinate on opening loops and it results in a much less spinny ball which opponents will dump in the net if they don't read it properly.
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BH: D05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?

It is the forearm supination (forearm rotating about its own axis)
Okay.  So what is the visible evidence of supination in the backhand on Karaksevic?  And what is the evidence of pronation of the forearm on example 1 in the video I shared previously?

I can show the visible evidence of wrist deviation on Fan's stroke if anyone wants to check it.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Good day, gentlemen. I was following the discussion and last week I tried to reproduce this "modern backhand".

I'm used to play the "classical" thing on bh: be it chiquita or normal topspin. Being no specialist in biomechanics and googling pictures on the web, I'd characterize the motion as from flexed/ulnary deviated/supinated to extened/radially deviated/supinated, i.e. closed racket from beginning to end and the spin is produced largely by the wrist.

So, coincidentally together with this thread I've stumbled upon a japanese video devoted to the topic and at first tried to reproduce the thing from here:
after like 10 strokes ...it made absolutely no sense to me. I couldn't even hit the ball (I have the same problem when trying to hit loopy backhand, what my coach calls a "classic european topspin": it's difficult to connect the vertical motion of the racket and the trajectory of the ball: thin brushing contact and all that. I am more comfortable with hitting into the ball through the sponge). Then it clicked to me that the thing can be easier built on top of this technique:
Here it's like a flip: mostly pure supination (I guess it is called supination). Now, this is very easy to perform: you wait for the ball and hit it.

So, coming back to this "modern" loop technique you hit the ball from below (yes, Yokoyama does not do quite like that but his racket is very open, practically vertical at contact), but unlike in the latter video you don't supinate (pronated to supinated position) and I would characterize the wrist motion as ulnary deviated -> radially deviated, but without extension (flexed->extended), and therefore without this characteristic "leaf" shape of the hand-wrist. This shape is in fact impossible to achieve with this technique: the wrist is locked somehow. The spin is generated largely by the forearm.

Now could I notice any profit during just one session? I asked my coach to serve his toughest underspin serve, which normally I have troubles with: using my normal technique with closed racket I can overcome the backspin, but depending on where the ball lands on my side of the table I have to adjust my position at the table — I have to backpedal if the ball lands close to the white line. So, taking this into account I'd say 50% is my success rate vs this service. Using the new technique it was something like 80-90% and I didn't have to adjust my position whatsoever even if the ball landed deep.

I must say that before that I tried to copy what I think Harimoto does. At least in my mind it's something in between the two: short stroke, some supination, some wrist, a little forearm—and it was already more stable than the classical wristy backhand. But this exercise helped me articulate the difference in techniques.

My BH is actually incredibly similar to video no.2 - but against balls I want to add a lot of spin too it will look more like the 1st video. Sometimes against even heavier underspin, you'll even need to finish higher (shoulder height), but the concept is the same - hitting into the ball with an open racket angle rather than trying to brute force brush the ball (classical BH technique)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?

It is the forearm supination (forearm rotating about its own axis)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Good day, gentlemen. I was following the discussion and last week I tried to reproduce this "modern backhand".

I'm used to play the "classical" thing on bh: be it chiquita or normal topspin. Being no specialist in biomechanics and googling pictures on the web, I'd characterize the motion as from flexed/ulnary deviated/supinated to extened/radially deviated/supinated, i.e. closed racket from beginning to end and the spin is produced largely by the wrist.

So, coincidentally together with this thread I've stumbled upon a japanese video devoted to the topic and at first tried to reproduce the thing from here:
after like 10 strokes ...it made absolutely no sense to me. I couldn't even hit the ball (I have the same problem when trying to hit loopy backhand, what my coach calls a "classic european topspin": it's difficult to connect the vertical motion of the racket and the trajectory of the ball: thin brushing contact and all that. I am more comfortable with hitting into the ball through the sponge). Then it clicked to me that the thing can be easier built on top of this technique:
Here it's like a flip: mostly pure supination (I guess it is called supination). Now, this is very easy to perform: you wait for the ball and hit it.

So, coming back to this "modern" loop technique you hit the ball from below (yes, Yokoyama does not do quite like that but his racket is very open, practically vertical at contact), but unlike in the latter video you don't supinate (pronated to supinated position) and I would characterize the wrist motion as ulnary deviated -> radially deviated, but without extension (flexed->extended), and therefore without this characteristic "leaf" shape of the hand-wrist. This shape is in fact impossible to achieve with this technique: the wrist is locked somehow. The spin is generated largely by the forearm.

Now could I notice any profit during just one session? I asked my coach to serve his toughest underspin serve, which normally I have troubles with: using my normal technique with closed racket I can overcome the backspin, but depending on where the ball lands on my side of the table I have to adjust my position at the table — I have to backpedal if the ball lands close to the white line. So, taking this into account I'd say 50% is my success rate vs this service. Using the new technique it was something like 80-90% and I didn't have to adjust my position whatsoever even if the ball landed deep.

I must say that before that I tried to copy what I think Harimoto does. At least in my mind it's something in between the two: short stroke, some supination, some wrist, a little forearm—and it was already more stable than the classical wristy backhand. But this exercise helped me articulate the difference in techniques.

Awesome that the shot is working for you.  Ultimately that is the most important thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 9:07pm
Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 

So according to you, all these three swing planes on the forehand (t=66 in the video), which all have backhand analogies, are all the same and are all pronation, even when they don't appear to be and someone claiming so on the basis of the racket path and angle changes is just unable to see the subtleties?


So explain to me why the first forehand is not supination and I will get the analogy on the backhand - I think I will learn something new since I am not really great at biomechanics language, I just read this stuff on the internet.  I crush and get crushed by people who don't have a clue about any of this, so maybe I can change all that by learning.  But I doubt it since knee injuries are the limiter for me.



Yes all 3 are pronation - it's a visual illusion.

It's easy, with the racket in hand, put it very low with the FH face facing the ground. Without moving your wrist at all or pronating/supinating, use your shoulder to move it up so that the racket is above your head. 

What happens to the racket angle? You'll find that the FH face is already facing the sky without any pronation/supination business. This proves that racket angle is not only determined by pronation/supination. 

However, say if one does the exact same shoulder/arm movement, the FH face is not facing the sky but facing forward, then he must have pronated to reach that position. 

To judge accurately, you have to first replicate the body, hand and upper arm position and do it without any pronation/supination - then compare the finishing position racket angle with the picture, to truly eliminate all other factors and thus isolate the effect of pronation/supination on the racket angle.

Can you find a video that illustrates what you are trying to point out?  I can't make sense of your example/experiment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longrange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 7:43pm
Good day, gentlemen. I was following the discussion and last week I tried to reproduce this "modern backhand".

I'm used to play the "classical" thing on bh: be it chiquita or normal topspin. Being no specialist in biomechanics and googling pictures on the web, I'd characterize the motion as from flexed/ulnary deviated/supinated to extened/radially deviated/supinated, i.e. closed racket from beginning to end and the spin is produced largely by the wrist.

So, coincidentally together with this thread I've stumbled upon a japanese video devoted to the topic and at first tried to reproduce the thing from here:
after like 10 strokes ...it made absolutely no sense to me. I couldn't even hit the ball (I have the same problem when trying to hit loopy backhand, what my coach calls a "classic european topspin": it's difficult to connect the vertical motion of the racket and the trajectory of the ball: thin brushing contact and all that. I am more comfortable with hitting into the ball through the sponge). Then it clicked to me that the thing can be easier built on top of this technique:
Here it's like a flip: mostly pure supination (I guess it is called supination). Now, this is very easy to perform: you wait for the ball and hit it.

So, coming back to this "modern" loop technique you hit the ball from below (yes, Yokoyama does not do quite like that but his racket is very open, practically vertical at contact), but unlike in the latter video you don't supinate (pronated to supinated position) and I would characterize the wrist motion as ulnary deviated -> radially deviated, but without extension (flexed->extended), and therefore without this characteristic "leaf" shape of the hand-wrist. This shape is in fact impossible to achieve with this technique: the wrist is locked somehow. The spin is generated largely by the forearm.

Now could I notice any profit during just one session? I asked my coach to serve his toughest underspin serve, which normally I have troubles with: using my normal technique with closed racket I can overcome the backspin, but depending on where the ball lands on my side of the table I have to adjust my position at the table — I have to backpedal if the ball lands close to the white line. So, taking this into account I'd say 50% is my success rate vs this service. Using the new technique it was something like 80-90% and I didn't have to adjust my position whatsoever even if the ball landed deep.

I must say that before that I tried to copy what I think Harimoto does. At least in my mind it's something in between the two: short stroke, some supination, some wrist, a little forearm—and it was already more stable than the classical wristy backhand. But this exercise helped me articulate the difference in techniques.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

...


blahness, so based on this would it be fair to say that the vast majority of club players use supination on the BH with the rare case being something like a Seemiller grip?

Not necessarily. I would say based on USATT ratings the majority of 2000+ level loopers will be using some of it - and they will call it "wrist movement". However better players will understand it better for sure. 

I too was taught this by my ex provincial player friend. It was a game changer for me because pronation/supination is the most effective way to do a forceful spin of the ball which is especially important in looping awkward balls. With this knowledge, you can loop heavy underspin balls with this mechanism alone without any body usage at all, any additional body usage will simply be directed to increase the quality and power. You no longer have to do a 120% effort loop to overcome incoming spin, you can do it with 20%, 50%, 75%, 100% effort whichever is most comfortable for the situation.


Edited by blahness - 12/23/2022 at 5:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 

So according to you, all these three swing planes on the forehand (t=66 in the video), which all have backhand analogies, are all the same and are all pronation, even when they don't appear to be and someone claiming so on the basis of the racket path and angle changes is just unable to see the subtleties?


So explain to me why the first forehand is not supination and I will get the analogy on the backhand - I think I will learn something new since I am not really great at biomechanics language, I just read this stuff on the internet.  I crush and get crushed by people who don't have a clue about any of this, so maybe I can change all that by learning.  But I doubt it since knee injuries are the limiter for me.



Yes all 3 are pronation - it's a visual illusion.

It's easy, with the racket in hand, put it very low with the FH face facing the ground. Without moving your wrist at all or pronating/supinating, use your shoulder to move it up so that the racket is above your head. 

What happens to the racket angle? You'll find that the FH face is already facing the sky without any pronation/supination business. This proves that racket angle is not only determined by pronation/supination. 

However, say if one does the exact same shoulder/arm movement, the FH face is not facing the sky but facing forward, then he must have pronated to reach that position. 

To judge accurately, you have to first replicate the body, hand and upper arm position and do it without any pronation/supination - then compare the finishing position racket angle with the picture, to truly eliminate all other factors and thus isolate the effect of pronation/supination on the racket angle.


Edited by blahness - 12/23/2022 at 5:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 10:05am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

...


blahness, so based on this would it be fair to say that the vast majority of club players use supination on the BH with the rare case being something like a Seemiller grip?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 9:32am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 

So according to you, all these three swing planes on the forehand (t=66 in the video), which all have backhand analogies, are all the same and are all pronation, even when they don't appear to be and someone claiming so on the basis of the racket path and angle changes is just unable to see the subtleties?


So explain to me why the first forehand is not supination and I will get the analogy on the backhand - I think I will learn something new since I am not really great at biomechanics language, I just read this stuff on the internet.  I crush and get crushed by people who don't have a clue about any of this, so maybe I can change all that by learning.  But I doubt it since knee injuries are the limiter for me.




Edited by NextLevel - 12/23/2022 at 9:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 5:09am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 2:40am
Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 1:48am
You can see in the slow motion video below how much the forearm is rotating forcefully about the axis of the forearm itself (forearm supination). This is also much more easily achieved in a position when the wrist is slightly in flexion. If you notice, the same thing is happening during the FH loop - a forceful pronation (you can see clearly the sudden acceleration it is causing even in slowmo) while the wrist is in slight extension.



Edited by blahness - 12/23/2022 at 1:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 1:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The simplest way I can tell it is a wrist problem and not really a supination problem is to look at the many great backhands that don't supinate (Karaksevic).  But I am okay as long as people accept that backhand only survived because Wang Liqin was an amazing athlete and that there is something technically inadequate about it.  For me, the backswing is clearly not good enough.  And in my opinion you can't improve it by speaking purely in terms of supination and pronation.  But others may disagree,  there is a reason why you never saw Wang Liqin doing a banana

Not saying that Valiantsin has the same problem as he has better technique but that the wrist is not just all pronation and supination. I know you all know this, it is just about degree.  But anyone saying that Wang Liqin is not using his body would be laughed at.  But it is clear to us that something is missing from that stroke.
Not sure what you're looking at, but Karakasevic has an amazing supinating BH and so does Kreanga - you can see from all the slowmos




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 11:00pm
The simplest way I can tell it is a wrist problem and not really a supination problem is to look at the many great backhands that don't supinate (Karaksevic).  But I am okay as long as people accept that backhand only survived because Wang Liqin was an amazing athlete and that there is something technically inadequate about it.  For me, the backswing is clearly not good enough.  And in my opinion you can't improve it by speaking purely in terms of supination and pronation.  But others may disagree,  there is a reason why you never saw Wang Liqin doing a banana

Not saying that Valiantsin has the same problem as he has better technique but that the wrist is not just all pronation and supination. I know you all know this, it is just about degree.  But anyone saying that Wang Liqin is not using his body would be laughed at.  But it is clear to us that something is missing from that stroke.


Edited by NextLevel - 12/22/2022 at 11:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 6:53pm
FZD's entire stroke structure is based on a lot of wrapping of the ball via pronation (in the FH) and supination (in the BH) and imo is the most advanced topspin technique of the CNT at the moment. Wang Chuqin uses very similar technique too and so does most of the younger generation of CNT (for e.g. Lin Shidong). 

In fact if you look at his FH loop, during the backswing there is a brief period where he supinates the arm to allow for max room to pronate during the stroke which is why you can see the blade angle changing like a magician when the blade is about to start swinging forward. It is this pronation/supination mechanism which contributes to the complexity in FZD's strokes as compared to older gen CNT players like Wang Liqin. 

So it does appear that there's a lot of changing racket angles in his stroke (it is not so "constant" as the older players - NextLevel's slowmo demonstrates the key difference between his and WLQ's strokes). Wang Liqin doesn't even use much pronation/supination for the most part - only a bit. 

FZD even intentionally designs his stroke to take advantage of the pronation/supination mechanism - you'll notice that the bat is not completely horizontal but slightly upwards and forwards during contact - it is only in this angle which allows for the pronation/supination to coincide with the direction of the finger power to direct the force forwards/downwards 

One very simple test to show what I'm talking about - hold your forearm completely still (with only wrist allowed to move) while holding a bat. Try as you might, you cannot change the racket angle with the wrist alone without rotating your forearm - the wrist can only move up/down via radial/ulnar deviation or backwards/forwards via flexion/extension both which don't change the racket angle. 

Also with this test, you can test the power of the 2 mechanisms of the wrist vs forearm pronation/supination in this instance without help from the rest of the body. You will notice that it's not even in the same order of magnitude (the amount of force you can generate via wrist vs forearm pronation/supination). 

The biggest advantage of forearm pronation/supination is this - you can generate a lot of "secret" power even without much body involvement which is incredibly advantageous when the ball is not what you anticipated and you're in a bad position. This is even more key in close table situations (for e.g. FH flick or BH chiquita) where you can't always use your body optimally due to the table being in the way.  


Edited by blahness - 12/22/2022 at 7:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 4:45pm
Check the game vs Jang Jike (whose prime was around that time - 1 year till OG championship) do you still think his BH is bad?
Check first set - who won from BH more JJ or WL :) :) ?
The result is WL 4 JJ 2 (while 1 of them is edge ball)
And last point of the whole match JJ lost from BH btw - does not mean anything - just interesting fact.



Edited by Valiantsin - 12/22/2022 at 8:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 11:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 10:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 10:50am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

With whatever loop there has to be a clear sequence of movement starting from the legs to the core to the arm to the fingers. If the "firing" sequence is not right then you lose the "whip" effect. It needs to activate one after the other (not at the same time) with the lag that people are talking about here.

But my challenge is the "role of the wrist" used actively that everyone just assumes at the moment. Wang Liqin doesn't use anywhere as much wrist whip as Timo Boll, but yet his stroke is incredibly powerful and spinny. 

Similar to Valiantsin, who doesn't use it that much but yet gets very good quality from his strokes. 

My take is that the wrist itself is quite a weak mechanism compared to the other mechanisms which are way more powerful, which matters a lot more to shot quality. Especially for amateurs, the active use of wrist only leads to a reduction in consistency in contact especially in terms of the strength of the contact - these causes errors. Pronation/supination, aided by the finger pressure (thumb for BH, index for FH) is significantly stronger and should be the main mechanism instead of the wrist in terms of adding some juice to the ball.

I agree with your view on the wrist, there's no need to actively use the wrist to create quality shots, particularly on the FH. As long as you keep all your joints loose until they're activated sequentially you'll naturally be dragging your wrist and whip it forward just before contact. You can intentionally cock it backward like Timo or Liam and often times ZJK, but guys like WLQ and ML can obviously also create quality shots without it. 

For the BH since you can't use your core nearly as much, the wrist is a bit more important. Even then, you just need to worry about the backswing. You'll naturally develop a comfortable forward swing depending on the timing, location, and your preference re: spin vs speed so long as you sequentially activate your muscles. 

Let me throw some wood on the fire here.  Without any serious concept of whip or wrist usage, can anyone explain why Wang Liqin never achieved the same appearance of two wing dominance/balance that Ma Long or FAN Zhendong or Zhang Jike did?  Was it just a style choice?
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