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Topspin against backspin. |
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bes
Super Member Joined: 04/26/2014 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 201 |
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baribari,
If you could post a short video of yourself looping against pushes and chops I'm pretty sure you'd get some help. Without seeing your stroke, timing, blade angle, and stroke plane it is impossible to give precise suggestions. Do you have access to a coach? Assuming you don't have a coach handy, it might be best to work on this against medium or even medium light pushes - at least until you get the timing down and get more relaxed and comfortable with the stroke. ANY tension (too much grip pressure, tight hand, wrist, forearm, elbow...) tends to really drop blade speed, which is a killer. As mentioned before, timing is critical. Your backswing should immediately (or darn near immediately) flow into your stroke. Don't drop your blade too early! Your backswing is like winding a spring - but a spring that only stays wound for an instant. If you stop at the bottom of your backswing too long, this "spring effect" tends to disappear. Bend your "playing hand" knee as you rotate your shoulders back and down, then push off with it when you swing forward and up. Your off arm should move with your playing arm! Imagine they are tied together with a string. Use the off shoulder and arm to pull up and around. This gets your shoulders and core involved. Feel free to add a little "elbow" through contact. Finish the stroke high. Even "really high" is ok - whatever helps you get the feel. Watch any top player playing a chopper (plenty on youtube or ITTF-TV). Ignore their "Kill" loops for now, but pay close attention to their normal and control loops. See how relaxed they are. Watch their timing. Watch their stroke angle. Watch their blade angle. Watch their movement and positioning. Watch their finish position. Watch several players and see if you can find one with a similar body type/playing style as you - or kind of close. It isn't essential, but some players are longer and slower (e.g. Samsonov) and others are quicker (FZD or ML) Next, get in front of a large mirror and duplicate what they did. Do it very slowly. VERY SLOWLY. Get every detail perfect - ready position, foot position, posture, backswing, blade angle(throughout), stroke plane, (imaginary) contact, finish, return to ready position. Do this many, many times - yes, your family/friends, and pets will think you are crazy - it will really help. This "shadow training" will help teach yourself how to put it all together. Doing it slowly - even painfully slowly - works fine. Your brain needs to learn the sequence and positions - these are the same at any speed. After doing this carefully for several hours (over a couple days) you can gradually speed up the shadow strokes - but be careful to keep everything in the correct sequence and hit all the correct positions. I recommend doing this a bunch before trying to play. This will help you get your technique down without stress or confusion - or fear of failure. Sleep on it at least twice - your brain can do magic overnight! I recommend not opening your blade too much. "Open blade" strokes can help get the ball over the net, but yield a less spinny ball that is pretty easy to attack. This type stroke is finet as a deceptive "dead loop", but it is normally only effective when mixed in with normal, spinny loops. I do not, however, think it a good learning tool for a proper spinny loop. Also, while I'm sure there are some who really have this shot down, most (admittedly these lower level - guys and gals struggling to learn to loop) that I see using the open blade technique are fairly erratic - tiny blade angel changes seem to have big effects on the trajectory. Good Luck! bes
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Yes, it is true that racket angles can compensate for racket speed if the goal is to simply return the ball and even to return the ball with topspin. You do not need high racket speed to simply return a chop. However, you do need high racket speed and a more closed racket face to return a chop aggressively. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Yes. I think people who are complaining about what I wrote have not played seriously heavy chop that tests the limits of their technique. Don't underestimate what the pros do. It's one thing to loop a opening push and another to repeatedly loop backspin against a decent chopper. Some of you will be surprised to have to finish your loops behind your head to get the ball over the net on some chops. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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A picture being worth at least 10,000 words, here's a good example corroborating what your last post was saying, NexLevel. It was taken at the semifinals? quarterfinals? (I can't remember) of the 1998 U.S. Hardbat Singles Open, with Danny Seemiller, both feet off the ground and follow through high over his head, topspinning a heavy chop from Marty Reisman, to Reisman's backhand side. I suspect that his racket was somewhat closed, i.e., 10-20 degrees from the perpendicular at impact, and he put the force of his entire body, from feet on upward, into that forehand topspin.
Edited by berndt_mann - 04/11/2015 at 1:38am |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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baribari
Super Member Joined: 12/06/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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I found yesterday against a chopper with medium to backspin that by looking at how the ball bounced off the table (which obviously is different from a topspin shot) that I could do the mental math and guess where how to hit the ball to make it go in... which worked OK but not enough to win points consistently against a strong defender. Being able to hit a single chop back is good, but meaningless if you can't do it several times in a row if you're playing a good chopper... which is my least favorite type of player to play. Actually, I would intentionally hit high serves to temp them into returning them with some pace and topspin, because I can deal with those shots much easier than with pushes, chops, and junk shots. I suspect what I was actually doing last time wasn't so much looping it back but simply pushing it (with racket at 90 or slightly open) back really fast. That player in particular has much stronger backspin, and I had no luck at the time looping it back except for a few lucky shots. I will try the technique I found the other day next time... But I had zero luck with simply using my knees and a vertical stroke. In this case, my rubber might simply be too fast for me, and too susceptible to spin. No, I'm not going to record my practice and put it online. It would be too embarrassing. Yes, I have coaches but one of them only speaks Chinese... lol. For what it's worth, I don't have much of a problem using the vertical stroke technique to return backspin shots in multiball practice. It's only against a full-on chop that I have problems. And what does hardbat technique have to do with modern table tennis? Are not hardbats more or less spin-free (or at least not susceptible to spin).
Edited by baribari - 04/12/2015 at 11:44pm |
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Hopper
Member Joined: 06/13/2012 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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I used a triangular set square.....
Edited by Hopper - 04/13/2015 at 10:05am |
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bes
Super Member Joined: 04/26/2014 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 201 |
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I've used hardbat to help a number players with their strokes... While there are certainly some things that are easier with a hardbat, there are a lot of things that are tough. One critical thing is that, with a hardbat, you HAVE to hit forward through the ball. This is true whether the ball has topspin, no spin, backspin, or heavy backspin. Just "lifting" the ball won't get the job done.
There are a pretty good number of folks at my club that too often use their rubber as a crutch. Rather than getting into position and actually stoking the ball, they often reach out and bump it, wrist it, or do several other things I don't have names for. Often these lazy half-hearted strokes "sort of" work thanks to their rubber, but they still aren't generally effective or consistent. Putting a hardbat in their hands is the quickest way I know to illustrate (to them) that they are not actually stroking the ball. After they see that the ball just drops or bounces short of the net when they are too passive or simply stroke across the ball, they usually realize they need to actually stroke forward if they want to hit the far side of the table. Even a short session with a hardbat can really help their stroke. As a bonus, their footwork usually also improves since it is easier to stroke the ball when you are in a "decent" position. For the record, this experience has damaged none of their inverted games - every one of them was soon hitting better - often much better - shots with their inverted. I'm certainly not promoting hardbat as a cure all, but the fact that it isn't inverted doesn't make is useless - even for inverted players. bes
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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That's an interesting point - I should try hardbat trick. One of my challenges is to make my FH stroke less vertical. Practicing in front of the mirror helps a bit, but there is no immediate feedback from the ball.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Practicing in front of the mirror is better than using a hardbat. Hard bats have their benefits but note that the racket angles are different. The real feedback should come from a higher level player/coach watching or analyzing your stroke, which is why people who are not willing to post at least some of their practice online, even if temporarily, are not going to get any fixes if they don't have someone coaching them in person. IT's too easy to lock in and shadow practice bad habits in this sport because the mind likes to deceive itself. We all look like Ma Long in our heads, but the camera always tells the truth. Moreover, the camera's truth is only visible to those who can see what it is really saying. Spin quality is only one of many important things - optimal technique has things like stroke consistency or making the body parts function properly together built into it as well, and you aren't going to tell that by looking at the spin on the ball. That said, the spin on the ball reveals timing, and that should always stay with you or improve even when your technique changes.
Edited by NextLevel - 04/13/2015 at 11:21am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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I think this is very true. You need real feedback to improve, unless you are extremely good at imitating good players...which is rare. Using a video camera or phone camera is cheap and you can learn a lot from watching it yourself. Better yet, there are some experienced people on this forum who will offer free advice if you post footage and ask questions. I'm relatively new to forums and I'm kind of shocked that people don't post their footage and take advantage of the free advice from NextLevel and good regulars here. Cheers, Brett
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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My point in introducing my hardbat experience was that even with relatively low spin hardbat, agressive topspin returns will still be more closed than 90 degrees. And no, hardbats are not more or less spin-free. Nor are they immune to the effects of spin. Also, modern table tennis includes a wide variety of surfaces including short pips with no sponge. Depending on the equipment that you are using, hardbat techniques can be directly or indirectly relevant.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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Could be so, but - this strikes me as a simple drill that appears to be valuable since it forces you to do one thing right and get the feel for the right motion. Sort of like one of these golf swing tips/exercises where they would tell you to put a towel under your armpit and swing so it stays put etc. It is not going to produce pro-level swing, but it isolates one part of the swing/stroke and provides immediate feedback. Yes, I get the point about the bat angle, but it's not aimed at that. You'll notice that Brett Clarke does the same in his videos with frisbee, bear, golf club and I'm sure something else - as long as it gives you a decent hint about correct motion, it is useful, I think.
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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It takes some courage to post the footage, and it is a bit of hassle to make the videos. Not a lot, but still. Also - in almost 2 years at the club I don't think I saw anyone videotaping themselves. Yes, it probably says something about why people play TT there (more focus on fun, less on competition/ratings). Also, I think signal-to-noise ratio on the forum is not super high - most of the time you have no idea who is offering you advice, be it equipment or technique-related. And let's be fair, it is mostly equipment around here - note how long "Pictures of my blade" thread is By the way, really enjoy your (and William's) videos on ttEdge - recent subscriber here.
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Hardbat techniques can be directly relevant to the club player who depends on his sponge rubber covered racket to do most of the work in continuing or reversing spin, without the necessary (in order to improve as a player) incentive to incorporate efficient weight transfer, footwork, or offensive force and defensive bite. Whether offensively or defensively or all-round, it is difficult to advance much beyond the lower club level without the ability to move to a moving ball in such a manner as to stroke it back to your opponent or practice partner with a mixture of spin and force, particularly when using a racket with inverted sponge as a would-be contemporary attacker. It's pretty difficult to play effectively with a hardbat without at least decent footwork and weight transfer. With sponge, as bes has pointed out, you can see some pretty funky stuff from your typical club type that nevertheless is of limited effectiveness as the ball is an inanimate object and doesn't care how it is hit.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Hey, if you want to do hardbat, go for it - just don't see it as a substitute to what I have suggested. My basic point is still that shadow swinging in front of a mirror is more important than hard bat, and that ultimately, you need the right form anyway and hardbat is not going to correct your form - only a coach or an expert eye will, or a view of yourself informed by expert commentary - as an example of what I said, as a TTEdge member, watch the Ben series and see how he can get instructions, make progress and still copy the wrong form. You also see another example of this on my thread at OOAK where again, I am told the correct form and I do something like it sometimes and I do something different at other times. And I had myself on videotape and had to be told to do the right thing all the time and to prioritize that thing over other things I thought were more important. There's a reason why Brett does what he does (and trust me, he put me through weeks of frisbee tosses and floor serves). If you don't want to post your video online, you can send it to him directly with an unlisted link and he will tell you what he thinks. If you want to improve rapidly, do that and forget the hardbat and you will cut your improvement time at least by 50%. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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Hey pgpg, when BRS posted his forehand hit, I was surprised that the comments were solid. Perhaps I ignored some of the noise and just focused on the reasonable stuff, but the advice looked okay and definitely better than nothing. And you're right...it sure does take some courage to post footage although nobody cares about mistakes as much as one thinks. We've all seen thousands of people struggling with their backhands and it's not really a big deal. You are right about the equipment thing too. I know I shouldn't really talk about equipment, but I'll say this. Your technique and ability to read the play is 99% of the battle. Cheers, Brett
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baribari
Super Member Joined: 12/06/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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Oh, OK. For some reason I was thinking hardbat was just with the wood...
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baribari
Super Member Joined: 12/06/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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For what it's worth, I seriously doubt a typical cellphone video would be a useful tool for coaching in this particular case.
If anything, you would need a high-quality high-speed video taken from a tripod. I will just make sure I get plenty of backspin multiball next time... Does anyone have any more videos similar to https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=64&v=Dld67Quv0lg ? In this video, it's pretty clear he's using a very vertical stroke.
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Brett Clarke
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baribari, I see you aren't a fan of 1080p smart phone cameras that be attached to a tripod these days and replayed back instantly in HD. Fair enough. Maybe I'm wrong and my advice is misinformed. In relation to the YoutTube video of Austalian player William Henzell, I know a guy that coached him for quite a few years and still helps him with his game etc. I could ask him about this "vertical stroke" if you like?
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TurboZ
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I just found a way to work on looping a strong backspin ball when I am alone. That is to position the table closer to a wall. Adjust the distance according to your power. Then you can start your topspin loop against the wall and let it bounce back. You will get backspin in return proportion to the amount of topspin you put in. Could be a tough exercise but lots of fun.
The point is that you need a racket with spiny rubber to make a strong topspin otherwise the backspin will be minimum and too easy to lift. You can test the amount of backspin by just touching the return ball with an open bat. If it shoot right down then you are on the right track. Worth a try. Edited by TurboZ - 04/14/2015 at 4:15am |
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baribari
Super Member Joined: 12/06/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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By typical I meant shot off-hand. I know it could be useful in most cases (judging overall form), but I think in this case you would need high-speed video (much slower than smartphone slo-mo). The difference between going into the net and getting onto the table is pretty slim when you're looping a hard chop. I would welcome any details on the strokes of high-level players, of course!
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baribari
Super Member Joined: 12/06/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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For what it's worth, I just rewatched that video at 25% normal speed, and realized he's starting his stroke below his knees and finishing above his head.
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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If I am not mistaken, Brett Clarke was (is?) William Henzell's coach, so he would be asking himself about 'vertical stroke'. His post above desperately needs a lot of smileys , since subtle humor does not travel well on the Internet.
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bes
Super Member Joined: 04/26/2014 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 201 |
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Super quality video is almost certainly not needed. I strongly suspect that 720p@30fps would give a perfectly fine overall view of what you are doing. Fine enough for an experienced coach to pinpoint - or at least really narrow down - your problem(s). I would be fairly surprised if your issues required a detailed slo-mo break-down and precise blade and stroke plane analysis. 720p@60fps would likely be almost overkill.
This is absolutely not a critique of you - it is based on my experience and that of several coaches I know. I rarely use anything more than this while coaching. Occasionally higher frame rates can help, but that is an exception rather than the rule. The overall timing, flow of the stroke, balance, foot position, weight shift, backswing, stroke plane, and finish position are all very telling and all can be seen in even "average" quality video. If you WANT to look at slo-mo, the iPhone 6 can do 240fps, which is pretty impressive. If you mark your ball with stripes and have pretty good light, you'll be able to see some pretty cool stuff. But I suspect that fixing your big-picture "looping backspin" issue can be resolved without this. Good Luck either way! bes |
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Clarence247
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This works even better when hitting vs glass or wood (2nd best) rather than the wall - I have a big closet with a big glass door (thick glass - no damage) and position the table there - the amount of underspin on the 2nd ball is really incredible - it also works hitting against a wooden door preferably not solid. Yet no matter how monstrous the backspin is I swing up AND forward, and maintain a 75 degree angle - of course a lot of racket speed and power - this is the only way to produce a quality dangerous shot - if the aim is just to get the ball back on the table it's a different thing - but in that case pushing back makes more sense.
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Clarence247
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+1 I totally agree with this wturber - in fact normally not returning it this way is more of a disadvantage vs good player... it would almost be better just to short push back rather than giving the opponent an easy soft ball with slight topspin waiting for him to kill it!
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zhijie
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A video worth a thousand words :) Hope it helps. See videos below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c9YJyUEoC8&feature=related (See how William play against long pips...heavy backspin) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hq0atvT5Lk Edited by zhijie - 04/14/2015 at 10:02am |
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BRS
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Don't forget there was a prize with my thread. You get what you pay for. LOL About posting footage, think of it this way, people see you playing in the club and at tournaments and they are right there. If it isn't embarrassing to be seen live, why is it different on a forum? It's because you can see yourself, it's nothing to do with other people. And if you don't want to see yourself, really accurately see what you are doing now, it is going to be difficult to make changes. You are not doing what you think you are doing. The camera and tripod I use cost less than $300 together. I'm sure you could get perfectly usable ones for less. I think it has been good value, compared to a few hours of coaching or a down payment on an SZLC setup.
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Brett Clarke
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Thanks so much for smileys pgpg. It certainly appears that I need them as I resorted to posting humor that was solely for my own entertainment. As baribari likes William's play off backspin, I'll ask William to post some tips here. |
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V-Griper
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The best example of a control loop vs backspin right now is probably Xu Xin's. I am mainly referring to his efficiency. He looks super comfortable making that shot. The problem with emulating his solution, besides him being penhold, is the length of his take back. That's a big arm swing. However the problem is not the swing it's timing the ball with a swing that big. The up side is blade velocity at ball contact is more than adequate. It might be worth a try to get the feel and more importantly to relax more during the stroke. There is not a lot time pressure either. XX vs JSH Theres always the ZJK vid which is a good reference. Same stroke as XX essentially just not as much take back and more "explosive" torso opening/hip extension. Blade angle and stroke plane angle are fairly clear. Slight BH biased/neutral grip. Fan- bigger straight arm back swing than ZJK closer to XX. Executes pretty fast though. Neutral grip I will throw Timo in here as well in case you use a FH biased grip as the stroke mechanics are slightly different. Requires more bend at the elbow. Edited by V-Griper - 04/14/2015 at 2:09pm |
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